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Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:15 am UTC
by EdgarJPublius
I am 1000% on board with this Mirror Universe arc

edit: 10,000%

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:42 pm UTC
by sardia
EdgarJPublius wrote:I am 1000% on board with this Mirror Universe arc

edit: 10,000%

I'm surprised at how well this show is doing given the hate it recieved at its start. And yes, I like how they welded together the clues.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:40 pm UTC
by Pfhorrest
I also am pleasantly surprised with the show, after initially having deemed it not worth watching. I blitzed through what had aired already shortly before the midseason break and now I'm hooked.

It still seems like it's full of really weird things that don't quite fit the normal Star Trek universe, but I guess that's on purpose and it's not bad once you accept it for what it is.

Spoilery discussion:
Spoiler:
Does anyone else feel that having Tyler actually be Voq kind of cheapens the usually-not-talked-about male rape arc of his character? Now he wasn't actually an ordinary soldier raped by his captor and forced to go along with it to survive; now he's a brainwashed enemy with memories of having consensual sex with his "captor" before his brainwashing.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:52 pm UTC
by Zohar
I 100% agree with you on this Pfhorrest. There was a review of the most recent episode (S1E12, "Vaulting Ambition") that talked about how the plot twists lose a lot of the nuances they've built up. Spoilers for this more recent episode:

Spoiler:
So definitely what you wrote - I thought the rape story was handled pretty well, but apparently now it's not a unique representation of men being sexually assaulted, it's just a sci-fi brainwash story. The same goes with Lorca's reveal - we thought he represents an unusual manifestation of Federation values, a complicated character that challenges us on our preconceived notions of the Federation. But nope - he's just from the universe where everyone is evil. It's frustrating.

The same goes for the infuriating death of Dr. Culber. After the disastrous decision to bury your gays, they claim he's going to come back only to inspire someone else with his death. It is a really shitty decision.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:21 pm UTC
by mosc
maybeagnostic wrote:I am also not quite clear on why everyone is blaming the war on her. Seems to me that they made a connection between Michael's mutiny and generally aggressive behavior and Starfleet's failure to deescalate the situation. Perhaps we are left to assume Starfleet ran a smear campaign that set her up as primarily responsible for instigating the conflict (killing the Klingon) and escalating the confrontation (trying to shoot at the Klingon ship which they apparently detected).


Burnam explained to her captain why killing T'Kuvmah was bad and then proceeded to do exactly that (that thing clearly had a stun setting she wasn't using) out of a very non-vulcan-like "watching somebody die rage". I found that pretty jarringly out of character for who they were trying to establish (basically the most emotionally controlled and repressed human being ever even if not a full Vulcan in terms of mental power). You're beaming over to an enemy battleship, the odds of survival are not good to begin with so seeing her die should not have been so utterly devastating.

There are good parts of this show but it seems to purposely go against the basic episodic and altruistic natures of Star Trek. If they wrap up the mirror universe (which I assume is the same mirror universe they always visit ex TOS, DS9?) and the war ends does it revert to some less "save the world at all costs" high stakes apocalyptic stuff? Do they like meet some new lifeforms and talk to them? I dunno.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:11 pm UTC
by Zohar
One theory I heard online is every season (or half season) will take place in a different setting.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:01 pm UTC
by EdgarJPublius
Hmm, like some sort of Voyager/Sliders mashup where the Discovery keeps jumping to different alternate realities via the Fungus network? That could be pretty interesting.

I've been wondering if the first half of the season was a bit of a long-con and the rest of the show is gonna be Discovery trapped in the Mirror universe, which I think is a premise with a least a couple of seasons of potential.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:12 pm UTC
by Zohar
I disagree. I think the Mirror Universe arc is premature - first, because we don't know these characters well enough to understand the differences. Second, because the Prime Discovery crew is already so murky that the mirror universe is no longer a mirror - just a somewhat ridiculous parody of evil people being evil.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:03 am UTC
by eSOANEM
you say that but the ds9 mirrorverse wasn't that much of a mirror either. In particular, Sisko and O'Brien were pretty similar in both universes with Kira and Garak being the ones with the most obvious differences.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:01 am UTC
by Zohar
I think even DS9 with its more nuanced characters and storytelling, was a lot more "good and evil" than Discovery with all of its grey areas, but you may be right.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:10 am UTC
by Pfhorrest
Besides Lorca (who [spoilers/]), who is morally grey on Discovery? Michael is a convict, but so was Tom Paris. (Sorry, are we not supposed to acknowledge Voyager? For that matter, all of the Maquis). She's otherwise an upright defender of Starfleet and Federation values. Everyone else on the ship seems to be too.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:22 pm UTC
by Ginger
Unfariness li'l woman whining about the new season of one of her fav space traveling shows....

Spoiler:
Why they gotta make it streaming services only, just. Why? It makes it difficult when... your computer would slow hella down doing streaming so? I guess I can never, ever see the new season of Star Trek/Truck and. It feels like they are discriminating a bit against ppls w/slower internet connections or big data limits or whatever? So... I guess they only expect ppls with good, fast 'nets connections and monies to spare on their services to ever, forever get to see Star Trek: Discovery anymore? Sooooo sad for me... </3 ;_;

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:28 pm UTC
by Zohar
Pfhorrest wrote:Besides Lorca (who [spoilers/]), who is morally grey on Discovery? Michael is a convict, but so was Tom Paris. (Sorry, are we not supposed to acknowledge Voyager? For that matter, all of the Maquis). She's otherwise an upright defender of Starfleet and Federation values. Everyone else on the ship seems to be too.

I think Michael is more ambiguous than Tom Paris. The entirety of the Maquis on Voyager are never really portrayed as evil (other than Seska), just undisciplined. There's very few instances in the show, including season 1 where most of these conflicts would arise, where the Maquis disagree with Starfleet. At worst they have a different idea on how to most quickly get back home.

I feel like the characters on Discovery are a lot less idealistic and more opportunistic than in any other Star Trek show. This is true of Lorca of course, but I think of Michael and Stamets as well. Saru is probably the most traditionally Star Trek-y of the bunch, followed by Tilly (she loses out because she's overly cheery, possibly to counteract the relative darkness of the rest of the cast).

What struck me most, though, was that the crew members aren't all friends and like each other. Again, other shows had conflict - the entirety of the ST:TNG cast not liking Barkley, Odo and Rom not liking each other, as you mentioned - clashes between Starfleet and the Maquis on Voyager. But every show had a majority of close friendships and a minority of adversarial relationships. Discovery has the opposite of that.

None of this is to say the show is bad because of this - it's just very different. And with such a less optimistic view on the future, the Mirror Universe kind of misses the point, for me.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:21 am UTC
by morriswalters
Is this must see TV for a Star Trek fan? I hate moral ambiguity.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:52 am UTC
by Peaceful Whale
@Mods, (or whoever does these filters) if you ever do mod madness again, or if you just want to, make Star Trek=Star Truk. :D
I was dissapointed when I realized that it wasn’t a filter... :P

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:17 pm UTC
by Zohar
morriswalters wrote:Is this must see TV for a Star Trek fan? I hate moral ambiguity.

Eh? A reviewer recently described it as a piece of fiction that uses a lot of the established Star Trek tropes and universe elements, without actually understanding how to use them. I don't know how long it will last - a not-great first season is par for the course for Star Trek. This one keeps having AWESOME THINGS happen that don't make much sense and don't have long-term consequences. It's frustrating.

Spoilers re: last night's episode (S01E13)
Spoiler:
I guess they're trying to go for epic here? The bit about the mycelial network dying means all life in the multiverse will die came out of nowhere and is ludicrously high stakes for something that gets resolved within 30 minutes.

It makes sense for Michael to oppose Lorca in his coup as he basically said he wants to keep expanding the empire whereas Georgiou was content with leaving matters as-is. But to then save Georgiou? It's like Michael forgot she's a genocidal murderous maniac who likes to eat sentient beings.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:01 pm UTC
by morriswalters
Thanks.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:02 am UTC
by Raidri
Zohar wrote:I disagree. I think the Mirror Universe arc is premature - first, because we don't know these characters well enough to understand the differences. Second, because the Prime Discovery crew is already so murky that the mirror universe is no longer a mirror - just a somewhat ridiculous parody of evil people being evil.

In one review (in the mid-season break) I saw them speculating that maybe the universe in which the first half of the season played would be revealed as the mirror-universe. With it being so murky and most of the people being jerks (to some degree) it was a nice idea even if not very probable.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:27 pm UTC
by eSOANEM
Zohar wrote:
Spoilers re: last night's episode (S01E13)
Spoiler:
I guess they're trying to go for epic here? The bit about the mycelial network dying means all life in the multiverse will die came out of nowhere and is ludicrously high stakes for something that gets resolved within 30 minutes.

It makes sense for Michael to oppose Lorca in his coup as he basically said he wants to keep expanding the empire whereas Georgiou was content with leaving matters as-is. But to then save Georgiou? It's like Michael forgot she's a genocidal murderous maniac who likes to eat sentient beings.


I've finally seen this episode and fucking loved it.

Spoiler:
The way we (me and my housemates) read keeping Georgiou alive and bringing her to the main universe is that she plans to rehabilitate her; also she is like super attached to her and has a load of guilt about her death the first time round so her not being willing to leave her to die again seems pretty in character even if not wise.

I also loved Lorca's death and, well, they seem to be making the mushroom-force being controlled through the power of pure gay love to save the day a theme and I'm ok with that given the amount it pisses off the shitty fans.

I do agree though that the mycelial network dying destroying all life is pretty ridiculous though. The stakes would be high enough if it just meant that they'd be stuck and lose their one edge on the Klingons so making that high is unnecessary and feels a bit like they're blowing their load a bit early.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:26 pm UTC
by Zohar
More re s01e13
Spoiler:
I get why Michael is attached to Georgiou, but I find it hard to believe they'll do a reasonable redemption story for them. I guess we'll see where they go.

I absolutely hated Culbert's reappearance because it keep enforcing how useless his death was and how much it's only there for the character development and motivation of others. I feel like it's incredibly insulting to the character.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:58 pm UTC
by eSOANEM
as above
Spoiler:
Yeah that's fair re:Culber. I think it'll be less bad if he gets to continue as an actual character (albeit as a sporce-ghost) rather than just flashbacks which would definitely be bad.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:09 pm UTC
by 12obin
i'm just excited to find some people who are watching this show because no one in my offline life is watching it. everything i might have said about the show so far has honestly been said in this thread already, but here's a picture I drew of Voq.

Spoiler:
Image

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:51 pm UTC
by Zohar
That is really good! Great work!

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:44 pm UTC
by maybeagnostic
So next weekend is the season finale and I am still iffy on the show. It's not terrible but I just don't care about any of the characters or their universe.
Spoiler:
I think the problem is for all the twists and big reveals, there is never enough good build up. The doctor died before I had even learned his name (Hugh? Did anyone but Stametz call him that?), Lorca's betrayal was just as hollow and his "love" for Michael came entirely out of left field. Similarly I hadn't even started caring about Michael and Ash's relationship when we got betrayal, overcoming some mind invasion and them breaking up.

The only character I kind of halfway care about is Saru and despite having so much screen time, he hasn't really been the focus of any storyline.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:38 pm UTC
by Zohar
I generally agree with you. The show really feels like it's trying to go for awesome/cool/epic but without much justification. For example in the most recent episode:
Spoiler:
Having Georgiou come "back" to command Discovery is supposed to make us think "Oh shit!" and be amazed and in the meantime I'm struggling to think how this decision makes any sort of sense. How is this helping them? They're giving her ridiculous amounts of power and for what - she already told them all her plans. Why wouldn't the Admiral command the ship if she's worried Saru isn't able to commit whatever genocide they're thinking unleashing on the Klingons?

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:42 pm UTC
by mosc
maybeagnostic wrote:So next weekend is the season finale and I am still iffy on the show. It's not terrible but I just don't care about any of the characters or their universe.
Spoiler:
I think the problem is for all the twists and big reveals, there is never enough good build up. The doctor died before I had even learned his name (Hugh? Did anyone but Stametz call him that?), Lorca's betrayal was just as hollow and his "love" for Michael came entirely out of left field. Similarly I hadn't even started caring about Michael and Ash's relationship when we got betrayal, overcoming some mind invasion and them breaking up.

The only character I kind of halfway care about is Saru and despite having so much screen time, he hasn't really been the focus of any storyline.


This is a really good explanation! I agree
Spoiler:
The whole thing is breakneck pace. It's like they're trying to just write two-part season ending cliffhangers for every episode and without all the attachment and exposition of character exploration it just doesn't seem significant. They've made it very routine as well. The "Captain" of the show was only really the "Captain" for episodes 3-10 and even then he was captured on the Klingon ship for a while. The main character has gone first officer to prisoner to specialist to bridge crew in a few episodes and you can't be wrong in speculating she'd be the next captain or first officer of the discovery come season 2.

Trek is inherently one of the slowest moving sci-fi things out there and they're making this show one of the fastest. That element, not the evil mirror universe or the main character not being the captain is what makes it so not-trek.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:23 pm UTC
by 12obin
I like that it's not slow. I've been watching old Voyager episodes and they do tend to drag. I think it's cool that they're making a Star Trek show that's not a procedural, and that it's all a bit glossy. It is going real fast and not giving us enough time to get to know people, but I think that's a common symptom of a first season of a show that's trying to get picked back up for next year, and there's a lot of pressure on this show because it's launching a new streaming service or whatever. I just hope they don't blow all their story ideas and then get a next season and have nothing to say with it.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:07 pm UTC
by maybeagnostic
I don't believe they've had anything to say with the first season so far so it can't be that much worse in that regard. I also can't think of any other show that's felt so rushed and most shows I watch do end up picked for a second season so I don't think that really explains anything. Mostly it just doesn't seem thought through to me- there's just no coherent narrative that the season so far has been telling although maybe the season finale will somehow miraculously make it hang together.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:47 pm UTC
by mosc
maybeagnostic wrote:I don't believe they've had anything to say with the first season so far so it can't be that much worse in that regard. I also can't think of any other show that's felt so rushed and most shows I watch do end up picked for a second season so I don't think that really explains anything. Mostly it just doesn't seem thought through to me- there's just no coherent narrative that the season so far has been telling although maybe the season finale will somehow miraculously make it hang together.

The season finale felt very disconnected from the rest of the show. Taking the moral high-ground required boring speeches apparently and directly contradicted the pace of pretty much every other episode.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:31 am UTC
by pogrmman
So, I’ve finally gotten around to seeing this. I’ve seen the first half season so far, and I have to agree that it’s too fast paced. It feels more like a multi-part movie than a TV series.

Aside from that, it’s been OK. I like the way they use sets and costumes reminiscent of Enterprise, but I don’t get what they’ve done with the Klingons or what’s up with the hologram communication. I know you see hologram communication in DS9, but even there it is implied to be something pretty new. Sure, the holograms here aren’t as good, but it still seems out of place. Regarding the Klingons, it seems like they are entirely discarding the whole part of Enterprise that explained why the Klingons don’t have ridges in TOS. It’d be nice if they figured out some way for that to fit in. Also, why are they bald?

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:16 pm UTC
by mosc
There's an episode of Star Trek: Enterprise that explained why klingons didn't have ridges in TOS and why they did in TNG and later (and did in the prequel enterprise as well). Synopsis is they created a virus to genetically modify their appearance to better infiltrate humanity and it became an infectious disease but one they were able to treat so basically just most klingons born over a certain historical period looked human. The episode makes it sound better, but that's their pitch:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afflictio ... Enterprise)

Here's some fluffy-ier reading:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Klin ... nformation

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:39 pm UTC
by Pfhorrest
It wasn't to infiltrate humanity, it was trying to copy the human genetically engineered supersoldier ("Augments") for Klingons, and had the side-effect of humanizing the Klingons effected... and then it went viral, etc, like you say.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:00 pm UTC
by Zohar
We were watching a Voyager holodeck episode yesterday and my husband was talking about how he can't think of a holodeck episode he enjoys, and it's something he appreciates about Discovery.

On the one hand, the holodeck was definitely overused in TNG and Voyager, no argument there. On the other hand, it's a way to show us the crew when they're not dealing with neverending crisis. It's an insight into their personal lives that allows us to understand them more. There were non-holodeck ways of doing this, of course - the Enterprise crew playing cards, DS9's crew hanging at Quark's, Seven and the Doctor singing together, etc.

One of my biggest problems with Discovery is its over-the-top pacing, and one of the way it particularly hurts it is by not letting us learn more about its characters. I'm not saying we need a holodeck now, but there's just not a lot of time to get to know the crew.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:31 pm UTC
by pogrmman
mosc wrote:There's an episode of Star Trek: Enterprise that explained why klingons didn't have ridges in TOS and why they did in TNG and later (and did in the prequel enterprise as well). Synopsis is they created a virus to genetically modify their appearance to better infiltrate humanity and it became an infectious disease but one they were able to treat so basically just most klingons born over a certain historical period looked human. The episode makes it sound better, but that's their pitch:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afflictio ... Enterprise)

Here's some fluffy-ier reading:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Klin ... nformation


As I mentioned, one of my issues with Discovery is that they just ignore the augment virus. It’s not set that long before TOS, but it’s sufficiently far out from ENT that it should have some mention of it, at least.


Re: Holodeck

I agree that lots of holodeck episodes aren’t that good (especially on Voyager — I was not a fan of either the Irish village ones or Tom’s weird cartoon ones), and that it was overused on VOY and TNG. I do like how it helps us finding out more about their crews though.

The pacing is off in Discovery — you just don’t find out enough about the more minor characters (or even the major ones) for it to be super engaging. I’m hoping that changes later on — if they keep carrying it. I have a feeling it might be due to the risk of not being renewed.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:06 pm UTC
by Angua
pogrmman wrote:As I mentioned, one of my issues with Discovery is that they just ignore the augment virus. It’s not set that long before TOS, but it’s sufficiently far out from ENT that it should have some mention of it, at least.

Spoiler:
Given the experimenting with WTF was going on with Ash (still confused about why they needed to break his bones if they were just transferring a Klingon consciousness? Why were they all 'Michael fell in love with a Klingon when it was clearly meant to be two separate people?) it might be that the augment virus is going to get mentioned next series as the logical progression?

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:54 pm UTC
by Pfhorrest
re ash
Spoiler:
it wasn’t a klingon consciousnesses implanted in a human body, because the federation can detect that somehow; it was ash’s consciousness implanted in a klingom body that was then extensively altered into a human body, because I guess they can’t detect that somehow?

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:47 pm UTC
by mosc
It's interesting because in the tribble episode of TOS, the humanish klingon cannot be detected via scan, only by tribble. Maybe they say they can detect the MODIFICATION but not the genetic thing that lead to the no ridges. I dunno, I agree it's grasping at straws.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:27 pm UTC
by Soupspoon
I must rewatch Trials And Tribbleations again, amongst other episodes, but wasn't wossisname surgically altered? Depending on what was being scanned for (residual forehead ridge structures and other unique tlhIngan physiological ceatures, before or after 'augmentation infection', easily identifiable by Federation doctors probably mostly educated by post-mortem knowledge) fairly trivial 22ndC bodymodification could have done enough to evade such signs of telltales.

Tribbles, though, probably spark their instinctive distaste from pheromones. Likely not an insurmountable hurdle to also disguise, perhaps through dietary supplements and pharmaceutical treatments (unlike total-genetic-rewriting, which we already see as being not a perfected science!), but not thought important for Qapla' on an infiltration mission where only tera'nganpu' lI'be' are anticipated, not yIHmey.

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:48 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
mosc wrote:It's interesting because in the tribble episode of TOS, the humanish klingon cannot be detected via scan, only by tribble. Maybe they say they can detect the MODIFICATION but not the genetic thing that lead to the no ridges. I dunno, I agree it's grasping at straws.

Nah. After the tribble squawks out at him, McCoy whips out a tricorder, scans him and does a whole “Heart in the wrong place, kidneys not right, lungs all wrong.... this man is a Klingon” bit.

Soupspoon - The Trouble with Tribbles is the TOS one. Trials and Tribblations is the DS9 one where Worf just says “We don’t talk about it with outsiders”

Re: Star Truck: Discovery

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:15 pm UTC
by Chen
SecondTalon wrote:Soupspoon - The Trouble with Tribbles is the TOS one. Trials and Tribblations is the DS9 one where Worf just says “We don’t talk about it with outsiders”


Possibly the best DS9 episode.
Sisko: ... operations officers wore red, command officers wore gold...
Dax *in old TOS miniskirt*: and women wore less