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Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:16 pm UTC
by Weeks
Yo what is this "Avgn: Infinite Ward" thing, sounds bad I didn't think anyone watched the Nerd's reviews anymore, also is that like a hospital ward? Why is that a movie? Why is it infinite? so confusing

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:27 pm UTC
by Zohar
Weeks wrote:Yo what is this "Avgn: Infinite Ward" thing, sounds bad I didn't think anyone watched the Nerd's reviews anymore, also is that like a hospital ward? Why is that a movie? Why is it infinite? so confusing

It's a horror movie about average people (hence "Avgn") being stuck in a hospital they can never escape from. Not sure if it's very good or not, the trailer looks like it has a lot of mass hallucinations and way too many characters.

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:40 pm UTC
by Weeks
Zohar wrote:Not sure if it's very good or not, the trailer looks like it has a lot of mass hallucinations and way too many characters.
Is it the sequel to Mother?

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:40 pm UTC
by Zohar

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:53 pm UTC
by rmsgrey
SecondTalon wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:I'm not saying it hasn't been done well sometimes, but...

Put it this way: some teenager suddenly catches fire and starts flying under their own power. In an XMen comic, a hysterical mob starts forming up; in a non-XMen comic, a cheering mob does...

The underlying assumptions are different.

Uh, yeah. We went over this.

I wrote:Having a world where Cyclops is bad but Captain America is good allows you to draw parallels between "Acceptable" members of the marginalized groups and unacceptable ones, or the arbitrary nature of what makes one a member of a marginalized group and what doesn't, both very real-world phenomena


Yes, ultimately Avengers stories are about punching the Bad Thing until it's not a problem and Xmen stories are about *not* punching certain Bad Things but punching other Bad Things and the problem being resolved mostly, except the certain Bad Things are still around and still hate them.


Thing is, it happens even when the only thing the crowd knows is teenager-on-fire, not where the powers came from, which subgroup they're in, etc - only difference is whether they're in an X-Men comic or a non-X-Men comic. Which is why I say the two worlds don't match up, not that there's a difference in how people get treated once the public know which subgroup they're in, but that there's a difference before they know.

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:27 pm UTC
by Zohar
I don't get what you're basing this opinion on. You don't have the venture very deep into the news archive to see people committing the same exact actions and being treated differently based on their social backgrounds, why is it so strange to see the same in comic books?

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:23 pm UTC
by rmsgrey
Zohar wrote:I don't get what you're basing this opinion on. You don't have the venture very deep into the news archive to see people committing the same exact actions and being treated differently based on their social backgrounds, why is it so strange to see the same in comic books?

Because this isn't based on social background, behaviour, appearance, culture, location, or any other observable difference. Okay, in the specific instance of Johnny Storm v Pyro, there are real differences between the two boys, but in the general case, time and again, a kid exhibits powers (or just performs exceptionally) in an X-Men comic and the torches and pitchforks come out; a kid exhibits powers in a non-X-Men comic, and they get a very different reception...

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:24 pm UTC
by Zohar
Why are you saying it's not based on the mutant/not mutant designation? I really have no idea what you're basing this on except for saying "nuh-uh!". There have been plenty of stories of mutants being ostracized in comic books other than X-Men based on their mutant gene, it's not a phenomenon that's restricted only to books that say "X-Men" on the cover. You can find examples in Alias (the original, and fantastic, Jessica Jones series), in Spider-Man, in tons of books.

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:53 pm UTC
by rmsgrey
Zohar wrote:Why are you saying it's not based on the mutant/not mutant designation? I really have no idea what you're basing this on except for saying "nuh-uh!". There have been plenty of stories of mutants being ostracized in comic books other than X-Men based on their mutant gene, it's not a phenomenon that's restricted only to books that say "X-Men" on the cover. You can find examples in Alias (the original, and fantastic, Jessica Jones series), in Spider-Man, in tons of books.


In a book about mutants, someone exhibiting strange powers gets treated as a monster until and unless they can prove they're not a mutant; in a book not about mutants, the issue somehow never comes up.

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:24 am UTC
by EdgarJPublius
Maybe, but like, can you give some examples?

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
Sentinels.

How many X-men books feature Sentinels being a gratuitously over the top, overtly visible anti-mutant force that acts as an oppressive enforcement arm?

How often do you see Sentinels come up in other marvel properties? They're not used against other dangerous capes(despite them definitely existing), they're just...generally not visible at all.

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:42 pm UTC
by Zohar
rmsgrey wrote:In a book about mutants, someone exhibiting strange powers gets treated as a monster until and unless they can prove they're not a mutant; in a book not about mutants, the issue somehow never comes up.


Zohar wrote:There have been plenty of stories of mutants being ostracized in comic books other than X-Men based on their mutant gene, it's not a phenomenon that's restricted only to books that say "X-Men" on the cover. You can find examples in Alias (the original, and fantastic, Jessica Jones series), in Spider-Man, in tons of books.


Your point?

Re: Sentinels, they literally hunt mutants and can detect mutant genes. They wouldn't need to appear in other stories - they're a character-specific story. How often does Sandman appear as a villain except when fighting Spider-Men, or Red Skull outside of Captain America? Even Doom is mostly restricted to Fantastic Four but he does a lot of global-level shit. But a sentinel? If I'm a regular human, or Spider-Man, or Captain America, or Johnny Storm - the sentinel would just sit there. Or go "fuck this I'll go hunt some mutants".

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:04 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
I mean, I can't think of how many times I've seen Sentinels posted by the white house, or the NYC skyline, or what not. That just isn't visible at all in other marvel films. It's a major setting feel change.

Yeah, sure, Sandman is mostly a Spiderman villain. Meh. He *has* fought various members of the Avengers, albeit not as much as Spidey, and Spidey interacts with the Avengers plenty. There's a great deal more continuity there than from X-men/not X-men.

I don't think Sandman has ever fought the x-men, for instance. Or Sentinels. Like, they're basically different worlds for most practical purposes.

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:19 pm UTC
by Zohar
There's crossovers for other characters - Magneto and the Avengers (also because his kids are/were on it), Xavier is on the Illuminati, Wolverine has been on basically every release in the Marvel universe... There's tons of crossovers, all the time, between characters and villains, and events set by characters from the X-Men affect the rest of the world and vice versa. Sentinels aren't a constant presence in the X-Men stories, and they don't crossover much to other stories because - really, they won't be doing much there. But there have been crossovers - with the Avengers, the Asgardian gods, Spider-Man, S.H.I.E.L.D., and more. So again - I don't understand how you're making that claim.

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:58 pm UTC
by rmsgrey
Zohar wrote:There's crossovers for other characters - Magneto and the Avengers (also because his kids are/were on it), Xavier is on the Illuminati, Wolverine has been on basically every release in the Marvel universe... There's tons of crossovers, all the time, between characters and villains, and events set by characters from the X-Men affect the rest of the world and vice versa. Sentinels aren't a constant presence in the X-Men stories, and they don't crossover much to other stories because - really, they won't be doing much there. But there have been crossovers - with the Avengers, the Asgardian gods, Spider-Man, S.H.I.E.L.D., and more. So again - I don't understand how you're making that claim.


There have been crossovers between Marvel and DC too, so Doctor Who (The Doctor has appeared in Marvel comics) is set in the same setting as the Terminator movies (Superman has encountered John and Sarah Connor)...

The point is not that the two settings have no canonical crossovers, but that the underlying assumptions of the two settings don't match.

Hypothetical scenario:

New York city street. Building's on fire. Screams are heard from within. Someone in a hoody pushes through the crowd and runs into the building. A few minutes later, they emerge carrying two kids, all three untouched by the fire. How does the crowd react?
In the X setting, someone yells "They're a mutant!" and the crowd turns into an angry mob.
In the non-X setting, the crowd cheers.

It's not a question of whether characters from one setting appear in the other, but whether the two settings make sense as the same setting, or not.

Re: Avengers: Infinity War

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:35 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
I feel like you're also ignoring a fairly common coding -

If the untouched person is a mutant... they're now bellowing smoke from their mouth and nose, suppressing the fire. Or sloughing off foam or something from the skin like sweat. Maybe vomiting water in insane quantities, whatever. Very physical manifestations, often unattractive.

If they're not, then fire will die down out of their way. Hoodie might burn off but the flesh beneath will be otherwise unremarkable. If there are visible manifestations, they are not attached to the body but projected from the body, likely the hands only.

Like, they often talk about how Thing gets a pass because he's visibly and frequently hanging with Richards and company. Hulk gets a pass because he's Hulk (What can a two ton gamma irradiated anger mutant do? Whatever the fuck it wants, just over there please). And yes, there are plenty of passing X-men even when using their powers - Telepaths, mostly. But people like Pyro and Magneto are also unmarred.

But there are many more with unnerving or even grotesque features. Storm being probably the least noticeable with her eyes going funny - assuming she's not flying in literal lightning. Ones with healing factors have to get mutilated first. So you've got the inherit uncomfortableness with injury and then the flesh starts to put itself back together... but those are still minor.

Angel, Beast, Nightcrawler, the Morlocks - those are more of what people expect. People who at best are massively disfigured, at worst are Beak. Literal monsters.

That's why Mutants get shit on. That's why other Supers get a pass - other supers aren't nightmare monsters.

now, I will admit that a universe with the X-men makes every superhero story about oppressed people versus accepted members of the oppressed class versus the oppressors.

That's not a bad thing.