Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby tomandlu » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:23 pm UTC

I loved it, and it's been over 30 years since I said that about a SW film.

Spoiler:
Space Leia was dumb in the way that it was staged, but didn't bother me otherwise. The Monaco planet was largely a waste of space and time,
but compared to the lows of I-III, it was Citizen Kane.

Aside from that, I have almost no complaints. A great new character in Tico, the old mythos both overturned and reinvigorated (Luke's last words to Kylo don't seem to get enough attention), a villain who makes sense, an understandably conflicted heroine, grumpy old Luke drinking blue milk straight from the tit (the film is full of wonderful f-you moments), and superb juggling of the multiple story-lines (a hard trick to pull off). What's not to like?


As someone who grew up with SW (I was 14 in 1977), I'm really surprised by the mixed response from fans that it's getting. Would people really have preferred another I-III?*

* I realise that this is a slight "I was such an awful mother... what if you had a mother like Joan Crawford or Lana Turner?" question...**

** name the film, and why it's relevant to a SW thread ;)
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby natraj » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:44 pm UTC

i just saw it and enjoyed it plot holes and all i also have to say that tryna count darth vader as a Good Black Character is just about the worst take i have seen in the history of star wars discussions and i've been seeing a lot of kyle ron apologists lately

i mean anakin is obviously not black but leaving aside the prequels entirely luke and leia's dad is obviously not black, black people watching the movie are not going to be watching the movie and seeing themselves represented on screen

spoiler though even if darth vader WAS BLACK i still don't think it'd have been good representation of a black character for the same reason i don't think maz kanata can be counted as black representation like?? who cares who is behind the mask? representation is about minorities actually getting to see themselves represented in the same ways & degrees that white people have been. if 90% of your cast is white and then the dude in the mask who you basically never see is black idgiaf. if your black characters are cgi aliens or hiding in stormtrooper suits the entire movie so you don't ever know what they look like you're faililng at representation.

but you're failing even harder if you try and act like your white character in the sith suit is good representation for us darkies really try harder.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Zohar » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:14 am UTC

Finally saw it. It was... OK? I still like TFA and Rogue One better than this one. It felt way too long.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby OP Tipping » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:04 pm UTC

tomandlu wrote:** name the film, and why it's relevant to a SW thread ;)



Postcards from the Edge, written by Carrie Fisher. The character speaking the line (Doris) represents Carrie's mother, Debbie Reynolds.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:00 am UTC

I liked it.

Having had some time (a year for Roue One and two for TFA) to reflect, TFA has grown on me and I think that the 'It's just a remake of Episode IV) complaints are overblown. it has a completely different dramatic structure and you can't easily draw parallels between the characters. The similarities basically boil down to being a different take on the same Campbellian Monomyth, and using the same visual/aesthetic clues that are just as essential to 'Star Wars' as the Campbellian Monomyth.

Conversely, I find Rogue One kind of generic and pointless. It's not really a bad movie, and it is a very pretty one, but I would rank it below the Original Trilogy, TFA and now The Last Jedi, and I find that Rogue One's ranking vs. the prequel trilogy is fairly precarious. I've re-watched The Force Awakens many times since I first saw it in theaters, I don't even possess a copy of Rogue One.

To get back to The Last Jedi: I currently rank it below TFA (which currently sits firmly in the middle of the Original Trilogy for me) but not by much. I think it has the potential to grow on me the way The Force Awakens has, but it might also become disappointing in retrospect. TLJ doesn't do as much to grow and texture the universe as TFA did, the humor was even more over-the-top and out-of-place, and I feel the way it hangs together is vaguely unsatisfying. But at the same time, TLJ has some of the best individual scenes and sequences of the entire franchise, and it surprised me in ways I didn't think a Star Wars movie could, while remaining essentially true to itself and the Star Wars universe.

If the whole movie had just been
Spoiler:
Rey's time with Luke on the island (minus the caretakers and that scene with Chewie and the Porg), Finn meeting Rose, the confrontation in Snoke's throne room, and the battle on the salt-flat, with the Light-speed ramming maneuver and the Finn v. Phasma fight thrown in somewhere.
It could easily be my favorite Star Wars movie. And the casino sequence probably only gets cut because of what it does to the pace and over-all structure of the movie, I can't think of anything inherently objectionable about it otherwise.

The rest was mostly pointless and/or forgettable. Poe learns a lesson that Rose teaches Finn in a much more satisfying way; An unlikable character is introduced only to be redeemed, killed off and almost completely forgotten in one fell swoop (An end that could have been stirring and heroic if given to basically any other character); And there's a ticking clock that doesn't actually increase the tension, like, at all.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby bentheimmigrant » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:56 pm UTC

I liked it, and find a lot of criticism to come across as "they didn't tell the story I wanted them to tell", as opposed to "they didn't tell the story well". To me, VII had landed a plane that was in a real tailspin after the prequels. Yes, it was unoriginal but it was safe, and honestly I think that's exactly what the franchise needed, after going all in on CGI to sell movies entirely to 12 year olds.

My main issues were the plotholes. I need to rewatch VII to get a feeling for how we go from winning to a rebellion on the run (that's not a spoiler, right? It's literally on the opening roll). But it feels like I've forgotten something major there, but I don't think I have.

The thing that bugs me the most is
Spoiler:
Rey and Kylo struggling against the imperial guard dudes, and not using the force at all. Like, both of them are powerfully enough (even if Rey isn't trained) to pick the guards up and drop them down the inevitable endless hole that is present in every star wars lair, but instead they just go for straightforward swordfight and almost lose.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Dauric » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:54 am UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:My main issues were the plotholes. I need to rewatch VII to get a feeling for how we go from winning to a rebellion on the run (that's not a spoiler, right? It's literally on the opening roll). But it feels like I've forgotten something major there, but I don't think I have.



I think the big deal here is twofold:
1) the victory of the rebellion in Ep.6 isn't nearly a total one. While they may have chopped off the head of the Empire by killing the Emperor, there's still a hell of a lot more Empire out there that is still loyal to the "Law and Order" that the Empire represents. I know in the old extended canon there's actually multiple factions of former Empire forces, not sure if that's still a thing in the current continuity. Grand upshot being the far far away galaxy is a big place and forcibly changing the government takes a lot of time and effort that the Rebellion was still in the process of accomplishing when the First Order co-opted much of the existing Imperial governance infrastructure (making their efforts vastly easier than it would be for the Rebellion to do the same).

2) What little legitimacy "The Rebellion" had as a governing body was destroyed mid-ish way through Ep.7 when the Starkiller cannon fired and destroyed the five or so star systems the former Rebellion had actually been openly governing. The remainder of the Anti-Empire forces stopped being the military of a proper government and reverted back to being a "Rebellion".
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby doogly » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:43 am UTC

Just cause you can imagine a way to fill in the gaps doesn't mean that the movies shouldn't. And the Empire - First Order connection is unclear. Was Snoke supposed to be some Moff gone big? Who knows?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Dauric » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:57 am UTC

doogly wrote:Just cause you can imagine a way to fill in the gaps doesn't mean that the movies shouldn't. And the Empire - First Order connection is unclear. Was Snoke supposed to be some Moff gone big? Who knows?


It's not my filler in the gaps, but it does appear that when Disney decided to declare everything outside of the movies "Star Wars Legends" alternate universes they forgot to tell their screenwriters to not use large quantities of the extended universe (such as the connection between First Order and the Empire, which yes could have been a bit more explicit)

That said the idea that the Rebellion takes time to move from Rebellion to actual governing body doesn't bother me so much, and I believe they do say something to that effect (albeit briefly when explaining the importance of the star cluster that Starkiller base later targets and destroys).

I am left wondering about Snoke's origins and relation to The Sith. His existence does seem to come completely out of left field, or indeed Extended Universe canon, especially since...

Spoiler:
... He's apparently killed in the second movie of the trilogy where he's theoretically the Big Bad (7 through 9) the way the Emperor was for 4-6. Don't get me wrong, it was clever the way Kylo did it, using Snoke's mind reading against him (and showing Snoke's own hubris), but it feels like there's a "not dead yet" setup there.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Magnanimous » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:39 am UTC

Star Wars: Episode VIII: Everything Happens So Much. This movie could have easily been a half hour shorter, and I kept waiting for the end.

Overall I enjoyed watching a new movie, but there's just so much to nitpick. This was like 90% nit. Most of the crazy parts I can accept, but it just underscores how little agency people have in the Star Wars universe. If The Force wants someone to survive, too bad. Combat prowess is directly proportional to plot importance. There can't be any stakes, because anything can happen.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:00 am UTC

A couple things:

1. I think stories should be allowed to be told across multiple mediums. And especially as it pertains to Disney'Marvel's marquee franchises that have been doing this stuff for like ten years now, it may be a little out of touch to expect all the background information to be conveyed on screen.

2. It's Star Wars, all the background you need is in the opening crawl. "The sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the EMPIRE" but "General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE." If you expected more than that, I dunno what to tell you. Maybe you think we need a whole prequel trilogy on the origins of Kylo Ren and how Snoke rose to power and created the First Order, or a documentary on the astro-political ramifications of the Battle of Endor and subsequent creation of the New Republic, I know I don't.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Dauric » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:43 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:1. I think stories should be allowed to be told across multiple mediums. And especially as it pertains to Disney'Marvel's marquee franchises that have been doing this stuff for like ten years now, it may be a little out of touch to expect all the background information to be conveyed on screen.


I'd agree with this if Disney/Lucasfilm itself hadn't declared extended canon was separated in to "Star Wars Legends" as an alternate timeline(s) and the "official" canon was made up of the theatrical movies (and the Star Wars: Clone Wars TV series and associated movie). They were in effect saying to their audience "You don't need to be versed in the Extended Universe materials to understand what is going on in the upcoming movies." and to deliver on that promise yes, they do need to deliver the explanations on-screen.

For the most part I think they've done a reasonable job of this, and your point 2 stands: If you expect deep dissertations on the socio-political backgrounds of the Post Emperor Palpatine Rebellion and New Order then you're looking to the wrong movie franchise (if anything Episode 1 was criticized heavily for doing exactly that).

...

Spoiler:
That said I think Snoke got the "Darth Maul Treatment": A potentially interesting and important antagonist getting cut in half and rendered irrelevant before really revealing anything of interest about them.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:25 pm UTC

In a lot of ways, I kind of thing the thing in your spoiler was the point.

7 was 4 remixed. 8 looked like it was going to be 5 remixed but, as Luke said, "This isn't going to go the way you think"

Spoiler:
By Jedi, what did we actually know about The Emperor?

Not much. Used the Force, had Vader as an apprentice, wanted to turn Luke. Was playing some weird game with Luke/Vader and seemed genuinely shocked when it didn't play out with him as a victor because dude forgot that Three people can have three combinations to make a pair.

What did we know of Snoke?

Replace some names and it's still the same paragraph I wrote earlier, though he seemed less interested in turning Rey and more in making Kylo not a weird Vader fetishist while also capitalizing on Vader's lineage. But otherwise? Same deal. Only instead of dragging it out for another movie, they jumped to the end of that arrangement with a twist because ultimately - who gives a shit about Snoke anyway? His purpose is to exist and then die. He fufilled his destiny on an accelerated timetable.

But anyway, the twist to the arrangement is when Luke showed up for the final showdown, Vader turned.

Ben didn't.

Ultimately, I think it's more interesting to now have a Evil Flavor #2 running the show, instead of Evil Flavor #1 in a new can.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:03 pm UTC

I've seen it twice. I really liked it and really don't understand most of the hate it seems to be getting. A lot of what I've seen seems to be baseless or apply equally to every other star wars film.

Dauric wrote:
2) What little legitimacy "The Rebellion" had as a governing body was destroyed mid-ish way through Ep.7 when the Starkiller cannon fired and destroyed the five or so star systems the former Rebellion had actually been openly governing. The remainder of the Anti-Empire forces stopped being the military of a proper government and reverted back to being a "Rebellion".


In particular, one of those planets housed the New Republic Senate. The New Republic lost its entire central government; The First Order lost its biggest weapon but retained its leadership. Thinking about it in those terms, TFA is a bit odd in the way it portrays a celebratory mood at the end rather than a more bittersweet tone that would be more appropriate and also fit better in with TLJ.

Magnanimous wrote:If The Force wants someone to survive, too bad. Combat prowess is directly proportional to plot importance. There can't be any stakes, because anything can happen.


I genuinely have no idea what events you're referring to here. Can you give example(s)?

bentheimmigrant wrote:
The thing that bugs me the most is
Spoiler:
Rey and Kylo struggling against the imperial guard dudes, and not using the force at all. Like, both of them are powerfully enough (even if Rey isn't trained) to pick the guards up and drop them down the inevitable endless hole that is present in every star wars lair, but instead they just go for straightforward swordfight and almost lose.


Spoiler:
This is just in keeping with all the other films. It's pretty much only ever been droids that we see killed by lifting with the force and very few characters even move other people with the force (Snoke's the main one, Luke and Leia moves themselves, and I guess Vader's choke kinda counts?).

Maybe moving sentient beings is particularly difficult (maybe because they have some connection to the force so can attempt to resist)?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Zohar » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:11 pm UTC

I really loved Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens. I loved we have a villain who's not all-powerful and menacing, is still scary but also somewhat pathetic, it's just an entirely different characterization from what we usually see in villains, particularly Star Wars villains.

I'm just not too happy with what they did with him in the movie.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby doogly » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:20 pm UTC

Whoa whoa you *know* rocks also have a connection to the force. Yoda done *tole* you.

And "inept rehashing of the first ones" is a criticism that totally does not apply to the first ones.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:31 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
I really loved Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens. I loved we have a villain who's not all-powerful and menacing, is still scary but also somewhat pathetic, it's just an entirely different characterization from what we usually see in villains, particularly Star Wars villains.

I'm just not too happy with what they did with him in the movie.


Wait, the things you say you like about Kylo is exactly what they ran with in TLJ. They emphasised the fact that he isn't as powerful or menacing as he feels he should be, that he's insecure, that he's unable to control his emotions.

All of that was in TFA, they just got round to exploring that this time round rather than just stating it.

doogly wrote:
And "inept rehashing of the first ones" is a criticism that totally does not apply to the first ones.


TLJ was much less of that than TFA though and the only real link was the battle on the salt-plain lining up with Hoth. Rey's line has some similarities to Luke on Dagobah, but the tone's completely different as is the way they wrap that line up. Meanwhile, Poe/Finn/Rose's lines have no clear parallels whatsoever.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby bentheimmigrant » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:37 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:
The thing that bugs me the most is
Spoiler:
Rey and Kylo struggling against the imperial guard dudes, and not using the force at all. Like, both of them are powerfully enough (even if Rey isn't trained) to pick the guards up and drop them down the inevitable endless hole that is present in every star wars lair, but instead they just go for straightforward swordfight and almost lose.


Spoiler:
This is just in keeping with all the other films. It's pretty much only ever been droids that we see killed by lifting with the force and very few characters even move other people with the force (Snoke's the main one, Luke and Leia moves themselves, and I guess Vader's choke kinda counts?).

Maybe moving sentient beings is particularly difficult (maybe because they have some connection to the force so can attempt to resist)?

Spoiler:
That's fair, to an extent (though it's similar to gripes I have with other superheros where they power down to the level of the competition). But without establishing that, and showing various people get flung around (Kylo does it too - unless there's something special about high ranking Empire personnel that makes them vulnerable?), it feels like something easy to establish. It just felt particularly egregious since these were allegedly the two most powerful jedi around. Definitely would have been interesting to see the red dudes resist, since that would have been in keeping with their badassery.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Liri » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:58 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
doogly wrote:
And "inept rehashing of the first ones" is a criticism that totally does not apply to the first ones.


TLJ was much less of that than TFA though and the only real link was the battle on the salt-plain lining up with Hoth. Rey's line has some similarities to Luke on Dagobah, but the tone's completely different as is the way they wrap that line up. Meanwhile, Poe/Finn/Rose's lines have no clear parallels whatsoever.

The main ish with TLJ is that they're still just splicing together different bits of IV, V, and VI in random order and changing the flavor around with a few "Gotcha!"s thrown in there as a vague nod to being unique and creative.

In the prequels, we saw how someone Falls; in the originals we saw how someone is Redeemed. What is this trio offering us that's new? The overarching story isn't at all enticing to me.

I was mainly looking forward to VIII cause I've seen Skellig Michael in person.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Zohar » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:04 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:Wait, the things you say you like about Kylo is exactly what they ran with in TLJ. They emphasised the fact that he isn't as powerful or menacing as he feels he should be, that he's insecure, that he's unable to control his emotions.

All of that was in TFA, they just got round to exploring that this time round rather than just stating it.


I was just trying to avoid putting in a spoiler tag :)
Spoiler:
I didn't like his quick turnaround from "Rey, we can make something new and original and explore the Force in ways that have never been done before! We can talk about nuance and grey areas and maybe the force isn't just good vs. evil and what does 'balance' mean anyway since it seems to only mean 'good'!"

They also hinted towards that with their conversations. But then they decided for Rey to be horrified by this prospect (not sure why?), and then Kylo decides to murder them all anyway. I was disappointed because I think such a story would add more depth to the Force, and I found his decision to kill everyone, while very much in-character for him, boring and predictable.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby speising » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:07 pm UTC

one of my gripes with TLJ is that Finn is about as useful there as Indy was in the Lost Ark.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:40 pm UTC

Liri wrote:In the prequels, we saw how someone Falls; in the originals we saw how someone is Redeemed. What is this trio offering us that's new? The overarching story isn't at all enticing to me.


Only if you subscribe to the theory that Obi-Wan and Padme were bangin' and that Luke and Leia are Ben's kids, not Anakin's. Then you see a righteously angry man go too far and later calm down and ultimately forgive his betrayers.

If not, you just get some punk whining about sand while Obi-Wan has a fun spy adventure and the comedy relief is racist.

Of course, you get that too even if you do believe in Bamadala. That's Ben Kenobi and Queen Amadala's couple name.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Liri » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:49 pm UTC

I ain't said it was done well, mind.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:54 pm UTC

natraj wrote:i just saw it and enjoyed it plot holes and all i also have to say that tryna count darth vader as a Good Black Character is just about the worst take i have seen in the history of star wars discussions and i've been seeing a lot of kyle ron apologists lately


We still on this? Lando was also an excellent character, and if you're bothered by masks, and the plot change to make Vader family mid-original trilogy, neither of these things apply to him.

Finn doesn't represent all that much change over the original trilogy. He seems important initially, but rapidly ends up demoted to a second string character, and in this film, he only gets to go up against the sadly under-utilized Phasma. Neither really gets a great role, though they could have been a lot more. Ultimately, representation looks...more or less like they're aiming for a not-quite-remake. Lot of familiar elements. This goes a lot further than demographics. Poe's kind of the new Han, though the role occupied isn't exactly the same.

Ultimately, this isn't even my issue with the new movies, I just felt that the old ones deserved some defense from the charge of being entirely uninclusive, when they actually did pretty good, particularly for the time.

EdgarJPublius wrote:1. I think stories should be allowed to be told across multiple mediums. And especially as it pertains to Disney'Marvel's marquee franchises that have been doing this stuff for like ten years now, it may be a little out of touch to expect all the background information to be conveyed on screen.


Eh. No. I ought not have to watch the marvel TV shows in order to understand the latest movie. I *definitely* shouldn't have to read the comics.

I accept that a movie might have to require watching of the films directly before it, if it's in a series, but it really, really shouldn't require information from outside the series altogether, and "show, not tell" is an important element of film. The title crawl works really well as a summary of the last movie, refreshing people on where we are, but important plot elements ought to be shown within the films themselves.

EdgarJPublius wrote:2. It's Star Wars, all the background you need is in the opening crawl. "The sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the EMPIRE" but "General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE." If you expected more than that, I dunno what to tell you. Maybe you think we need a whole prequel trilogy on the origins of Kylo Ren and how Snoke rose to power and created the First Order, or a documentary on the astro-political ramifications of the Battle of Endor and subsequent creation of the New Republic, I know I don't.


A whole trilogy? No. More than a title crawl? Yeah. If a sequel is set in a substantially different place than the last film ended on, a bit of showing the audience how we got there is for the best. Doesn't have to be multiple films, but maybe at least a coupla scenes. A series should flow decently well if you watch the movies back to back.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:02 pm UTC

Did we ever get to see how the Rebellion got from blowing up the first Death Star to being on a base on Hoth under attack by the Empire? Nope, the title crawl just told us that's what happened between movies.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby bentheimmigrant » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:06 pm UTC

Liri wrote:The main ish with TLJ is that they're still just splicing together different bits of IV, V, and VI in random order and changing the flavor around with a few "Gotcha!"s thrown in there as a vague nod to being unique and creative.


You're practically complaining that they've used the same universe/characters/technology in this one as the others.

Pfhorrest wrote:Did we ever get to see how the Rebellion got from blowing up the first Death Star to being on a base on Hoth under attack by the Empire? Nope, the title crawl just told us that's what happened between movies.

Fair. As I said in my post, I needed to revisit VII to try and understand the context a bit.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:12 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Did we ever get to see how the Rebellion got from blowing up the first Death Star to being on a base on Hoth under attack by the Empire? Nope, the title crawl just told us that's what happened between movies.

But the audience's ability to understand the movie is not meaningfully hampered by glossing over that part. Provided you watched the previous movie, you have all the information you need to comprehend the events of The Empire Strikes Back. It's a lot harder to say that about JJ-Wars. Like, I sat through the entirety of TFA having no idea from the film itself that the First Order is (apparently...? So I'm told?) supposed to be a shadowy threat massing in relative secret and that's why the Republic isn't doing anything particularly serious about them until getting sucker-punched halfway through the movie. If you're just going off of what happens in the movie and how it plays, there's no meaningful indication at all that they aren't just Empire Mk. II.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Zohar » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:42 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Ultimately, this isn't even my issue with the new movies, I just felt that the old ones deserved some defense from the charge of being entirely uninclusive, when they actually did pretty good, particularly for the time.

No one ever said the first trilogy was good or bad at being diverse - you're imagining an argument that was never stated. What I said was one of the ways TFA was superior to ANH was in the diversity and representation of its characters.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby doogly » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:07 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Did we ever get to see how the Rebellion got from blowing up the first Death Star to being on a base on Hoth under attack by the Empire? Nope, the title crawl just told us that's what happened between movies.

But the audience's ability to understand the movie is not meaningfully hampered by glossing over that part. Provided you watched the previous movie, you have all the information you need to comprehend the events of The Empire Strikes Back. It's a lot harder to say that about JJ-Wars. Like, I sat through the entirety of TFA having no idea from the film itself that the First Order is (apparently...? So I'm told?) supposed to be a shadowy threat massing in relative secret and that's why the Republic isn't doing anything particularly serious about them until getting sucker-punched halfway through the movie. If you're just going off of what happens in the movie and how it plays, there's no meaningful indication at all that they aren't just Empire Mk. II.

And if they are amassing in secret, why is there a Resistance at all? Is it like, some people in the New Republic know about them, like a general of the armed forces, but most people don't take it seriously?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby speising » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:18 pm UTC

TFA opening crawl wrote:"Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.
With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.
Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts...."


hm. not really clear. if the FO is a different political entity than the republic, why aren't they at war officially?

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Dauric » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:54 pm UTC

speising wrote:
TFA opening crawl wrote:"Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.
With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.
Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts...."


hm. not really clear. if the FO is a different political entity than the republic, why aren't they at war officially?


First Order is an outgrowth of the Pre Battle of Endor Empire. The Republic is the "official" banner the Rebellion has been flying under since the collapse of the Old Republic and the rise of the Empire (as detailed in Ep. 1-3). The Republic and the Empire have been at war since the end of Episode 3. It was only after Episode 6 that The Republic banner actually stood for a proper government (though Starkiller Base took out the only places that the Republic actually governed in Ep. 7)
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:26 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:1. I think stories should be allowed to be told across multiple mediums. And especially as it pertains to Disney'Marvel's marquee franchises that have been doing this stuff for like ten years now, it may be a little out of touch to expect all the background information to be conveyed on screen.


Eh. No. I ought not have to watch the marvel TV shows in order to understand the latest movie. I *definitely* shouldn't have to read the comics.

I accept that a movie might have to require watching of the films directly before it, if it's in a series, but it really, really shouldn't require information from outside the series altogether, and "show, not tell" is an important element of film. The title crawl works really well as a summary of the last movie, refreshing people on where we are, but important plot elements ought to be shown within the films themselves.


I disagree, I think creators should be able to tell their story over whatever and how ever many mediums they want to. If you don't like it, well, no one is forcing you to read/watch/listen to anything.

Also, it's worth noting that 'Show, not tell' is more of a... guideline than an actual rule. And one that Star Wars in particular delights in bending and breaking as often as possible. The opening crawl itself is a testament to the primacy of telling over showing in Star Wars. Almost everything we know about the universe comes from the opening crawls or statements made by the characters about things we never see.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Liri » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:
Liri wrote:The main ish with TLJ is that they're still just splicing together different bits of IV, V, and VI in random order and changing the flavor around with a few "Gotcha!"s thrown in there as a vague nod to being unique and creative.


You're practically complaining that they've used the same universe/characters/technology in this one as the others.

I'm not ragging on them for using the Millenium Falcon, I'm ragging on them for having a wannabe Jedi travel to visit the last known Jedi in hiding on a deserted planet above a cave full of Dark Side energy which they visit and experience a vision. After the novice leaves, training unfinished, the old Jedi ruminates on things with the blue ghost of another Jedi.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:01 am UTC

It's almost like maybe Jedi know something about hiding from other Force users, and that places of immense Dark Side power are useful in that goal of staying the fuck underground and off the Force radar.

As for the Ghosts... if they had cell phones, it wouldn't be needed.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Magnanimous » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:01 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
Magnanimous wrote:If The Force wants someone to survive, too bad. Combat prowess is directly proportional to plot importance. There can't be any stakes, because anything can happen.


I genuinely have no idea what events you're referring to here. Can you give example(s)?

There is an exhausting number of scenes throughout the series (probably one or two every movie) where the good guys face certain death, but they win anyway. That's basically the main motif of Star Wars. Some of these could be luck, but the obvious conclusion is that the Force is fudging the rolls so the galaxy never gets too one-sided. Isn't that what "balance" is about?

I'm no Star Wars expert so maybe someone can explain me a thing, but that's my interpretation of the setting. All we are is dust in the wind, dude.

If you want specifics from The Last Jedi:
Spoiler:
the Leia Poppins scene, and Holdo(sp?) killing most of a fleet with one frigate's hyperdrive engine. Also the scene where Finn and Rose are being executed - they're surrounded by a full platoon of storm troopers, but after the hyperdrive thing they and Phasma are the only people left alive. Makes no sense.

It's still a good movie (and franchise) overall, but the plot is just narratively annoying.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby speising » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:28 pm UTC

that's not the force, that's plot armour. those two are completely useless side characters so far, they have no effect whatsoever on the balance. they are just required to stretch the movie to 2,5 hours.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Dauric » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:54 pm UTC

Regarding one specific example:
Magnanimous wrote:If you want specifics from The Last Jedi:
Spoiler:
... Holdo(sp?) killing most of a fleet with one frigate's hyperdrive engine.



Spoiler:
Actually that much carnage is probably pretty restrained considering the amounts of energy involved to get that much mass to speeds over 1c. you're talking masses and impact speeds that would impart enough compression to cause most elements on the periodic table to atomically split and potentially chain-react. To fire a warship-sized bullet with a nuclear-reactor payload at 0.99c (which it was probably travelling at just before the remains of the Republic ship passed in to hyperspace) it would be surprising that anything was left at all within multiple megameters, and the survivors didn't perish from excessive hard radiation exposure.

Otherwise, yeah, Leia Poppins was a bit much, and Rey being able to move -all- the rubble with little training when Luke still couldn't move the X-Wing just before he left Degobah... apparently Rey's been buying the lootboxes.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby bentheimmigrant » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:04 pm UTC

But Rey had faith, Luke was just a whiny brat who didn't believe he could do it.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Liri » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:32 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:It's almost like maybe Jedi know something about hiding from other Force users, and that places of immense Dark Side power are useful in that goal of staying the fuck underground and off the Force radar.

I get the reason. It's still boring and predictable.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Postby Diadem » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:46 pm UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:
The thing that bugs me the most is
Spoiler:
Rey and Kylo struggling against the imperial guard dudes, and not using the force at all. Like, both of them are powerfully enough (even if Rey isn't trained) to pick the guards up and drop them down the inevitable endless hole that is present in every star wars lair, but instead they just go for straightforward swordfight and almost lose.


Spoiler:
This is just in keeping with all the other films. It's pretty much only ever been droids that we see killed by lifting with the force and very few characters even move other people with the force (Snoke's the main one, Luke and Leia moves themselves, and I guess Vader's choke kinda counts?).

Maybe moving sentient beings is particularly difficult (maybe because they have some connection to the force so can attempt to resist)?

Spoiler:
That's fair, to an extent (though it's similar to gripes I have with other superheros where they power down to the level of the competition). But without establishing that, and showing various people get flung around (Kylo does it too - unless there's something special about high ranking Empire personnel that makes them vulnerable?), it feels like something easy to establish. It just felt particularly egregious since these were allegedly the two most powerful jedi around. Definitely would have been interesting to see the red dudes resist, since that would have been in keeping with their badassery.

Spoiler:
Wait, wait. Where in any of the previous movies have force users ever been able to fling other force users around with the force? They can fling objects at them, and use that blue lightning, but I don't think they ever directly affect each other with the force. I would assume that they can't, that being force sensitive makes you immune to being directly manipulated.

And in all movies, even if they sometimes use rocks or lightning, the preferred method of fighting between force users has always been light sabers. Why is this suddenly weird in the 8th movie?
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