Black Panther

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Weeks » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The only real problem with BP was that the plot of "hero fights villain with same powers" is starting to get a bit stale.
Being a Marvel movie works against it: we dont get to see more of Wakanda because it has to follow the necessary act structure and hit all the right emotional notes (some humor, some sadness, some epicness, overall fun) and show cool battles with people in unobtainium suits with lasers and spaceships and it has to all wrap up neatly in 2 hours. It couldve had more Okoye in it, thats for sure.

Its different from like, Guardians of the Galaxy 1, where everything in it seems specifically tailored to shine as a Marvel movie. It takes place in space and all the characters are aliens.

So we cant have both a deep, prolonged look into a virtual utopia and its relation to the real world, and cool wacky scifi action for nerds without compromising some characteristics of the film. Which is basically my main complaint: Blade Runner 2014738938489 was 3 whole hours, this movie could definitely had had that length and expanded on the Dora, Nakia's work, the differences within the tribes, life as a regular Wakandan, more backstory for the main chars not named T'Challa, etc. and I wouldve savored it all.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:58 pm UTC

Apparently the first cut was like 4 hours. Hopefully we'll be able to see some of that when it comes out to buy.

Jorpho wrote:
Or maybe you're so used to having movies targeted directly to your demographic that you can't understand what a relief this movie is to the millions of people who aren't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but you imply that one whose demographic is commonly targeted by films is incapable of comprehending the significance of this movie.
You are mistaken.

My demographic, to take a completely random example, is the one commonly targeted by films (especially by comic book and superhero films), and yet I understand some of why people find Black Panther so important beyond the mere fact of its being a fun movie.

You further imply that its box-office success may be largely attributable to not targeting said demographic. Is there evidence of that? Is this unprecedented box office success due in significant part to its success in a segment of the population that does not otherwise go to movies?
Black people do go to movies, but yes, part of the success of BP is likely due to the fact that more have seen this one (and seen it multiple times and then recommended it to all their friends) than bothered with the last fifteen or fifty white-actor-named-Chris superhero movies.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:25 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:Didn't Avatar make heaps of money before being largely forgotten (except for being a movie that made heaps of money) ?

I am actually consistently surprised how people keep remembering and liking Avatar. I'm not sure why, but I don't think your point stands.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:08 pm UTC

Yeah, and that section of the park that Disney eventually "got around to putting up" has the most popular rides in the park by a significant margin.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:09 pm UTC

I also found Avatar to be a very uninspiring, predictable, and somewhat offensive film that happens to look pretty, but I've heard a lot of people say how much they love it just in the last few months.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:15 pm UTC

It's Dances with Wolves but with aliens, yeah. The main thing it had going for it even at the time was being pretty.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

What was the origin of "planet is actually a giant brain with all creatures connected"? I definitely played that in Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri, but it probably came from something earlier.

Stupid blue mindworm people.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Mutex » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:28 pm UTC

Isn't that basically the "Gaia" concept?

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Re: Black Panther

Postby HES » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:43 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It's Dances with Wolves but with aliens, yeah.

I recall it being referred to as "Dances with Smurfs" when it came out.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:54 pm UTC

No, not the Gaia Hypothesis. SMAC was awesome because of 1) its highly customizable units/governments and 2) its amazing story. It wasn't "oh you are on a planet; conquer it!", it was about humanity's hope for the future dashed by sabotage, the crew of the ship descending into civil war and the people escaping to the planet, the planet being full of mindworms that psychically paralyze you before burrowing into your skull and laying their larva all while you are awake and feeling everything, the fungus actually being the equivalent of a planetwide supermind. Something you'd actually read in a book (which exists!) rather than just the excuse of a plot that was Beyond Earth.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:16 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
So, have you guys heard about how some of the alt-right are claiming Black Panther as vindication of their views, because (to paraphrase them) Wakanda is totally an isolationist ethnostate exactly like Trump wants to make America, except it's horrible when Trump does it but when fictional black people do it it's awesome according to far-left ess jay double-yoos?


I had heard that. They completely ignore the fact that the entire plot is centred around showing that its existence as an isolationist ethnostate is a Bad Thing. I did see one person trying to refute the Nazis claims by arguing that Wakanda having five tribes meant it didn't constitute an ethnostate but, well, I think that's overstating things seeing as the term "tribe" (in this sense) is usually only used for subethnic distinctions and all the tribes are portrayed as sharing a native language which is characteristic of subethnic divisions whereas distinct ethnic groups would probably have (or have had) their own languages and only use Wakandan as a lingua franca.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:24 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:What was the origin of "planet is actually a giant brain with all creatures connected"? I definitely played that in Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri, but it probably came from something earlier.

Stupid blue mindworm people.


There's an Asimov short story first published in 1950 under the title "Misbegotten Missionary", later republished as "Green Patches", which is the oldest I'm aware of.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Yakk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:57 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Where exactly in Thor Ragnarok did they tackle imperialism?

Spoiler:
Thor Ragnarok is has three storylines.

Story line 1 is a Thor-Hulk buddy film.

Story line 2 is Thor being repeatedly symbolically emasculated in order to gain wisdom. Hammer, eye, battle, running, etc. At the end, he is wise enough to rule.

Story line 3 is the lies of Empire. Asguard conquored the realms; once it had its secure place, it lied to the next generation about it being a benevolent protector of the realms. Hela is blowback from that era, and it destroys the (location of) Asguard.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby ConMan » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:32 am UTC

In other discussions, how are we all enjoying the "Actually, your dad was a jerk" cycle of Marvel films so far?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:50 am UTC

Does Spiderman Homecoming count?
Spoiler:
I guess it's more "Actually, your girlfriend's dad is a jerk"

Because that's my favorite MCU movie so far, with Black Panther and Thor: Ragnarok tied for a close 2nd&3rd.

I dunno how I feel about GotG2 I think I'm significantly cooler on the Guardians movies than most people, even though I'm normally a big fan of wacky SF adventures.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby felltir » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:02 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:
Another thing or two that I feel like this movie leaves unanswered, both having to do with missing women:

Spoiler:
Who and where was Killmonger's mom? They said his dad fell in love with a woman in America and they had a kid (Killmonger) together, and then they killed his dad and left him there "alone". What, was Mom already dead at that point?

And who was that woman that adult Killmonger was working with, whom Klaue referred to as the Bonnie to his Clyde, that just disappeared out of the story with no resolution once Killmonger set off for Wakanda?

I don't know about his mother, but as for his partner
Spoiler:
Didn't he shoot through her to get Klaue?


Spoiler:
He did indeed. So, not a plot hole, but I do rather wish we'd seen more of her character and their relationship. A bonnie and clyde villain duo could have been fun. I'm not even adverse to him sacrificing her for his goals, eventually, but we don't see a lot of her, and it doesn't seem to bother him much, so it doesn't come across as much of a sacrifice.


Spoiler:
I actually /really/ liked this. He acted, completely, like he cared for her, like she mattered and was his partner; until she stood between him and what he wanted.

When she did, he killed her without hesitation or a second thought. To me, it spoke to just how much he wanted his revenge.
Spoiler:
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:13 pm UTC

That made absolutely zero sense to me.
Spoiler:
What possible reason do you have for not immediately shooting Klaue? At best - you kill him and you have the gratitude of your partner,
and if you want to off her you still have the chance to do so while she's grateful and not considering protecting herself from you. At worst you
miss and hit her instead, in which case she dies and you have to chase after Klaue. Shooting her right away accomplishes... what exactly? Klaue gets to live a few more minutes and you risk a more intense fire fight.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby felltir » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:34 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
That made absolutely zero sense to me.
Spoiler:
What possible reason do you have for not immediately shooting Klaue? At best - you kill him and you have the gratitude of your partner,
and if you want to off her you still have the chance to do so while she's grateful and not considering protecting herself from you. At worst you
miss and hit her instead, in which case she dies and you have to chase after Klaue. Shooting her right away accomplishes... what exactly? Klaue gets to live a few more minutes and you risk a more intense fire fight.

Spoiler:
I assumed it was standard movie "I can't shoot him, she's in the way!"
Spoiler:
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:04 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I guess? But he could see his face, he could have at least tried. he didn't gain anything from specifically shooting her first.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:25 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
That made absolutely zero sense to me.
Spoiler:
What possible reason do you have for not immediately shooting Klaue? At best - you kill him and you have the gratitude of your partner,
and if you want to off her you still have the chance to do so while she's grateful and not considering protecting herself from you. At worst you
miss and hit her instead, in which case she dies and you have to chase after Klaue. Shooting her right away accomplishes... what exactly? Klaue gets to live a few more minutes and you risk a more intense fire fight.


Maybe he was a fan of Speed?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:25 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
Zohar wrote:
That made absolutely zero sense to me.
Spoiler:
What possible reason do you have for not immediately shooting Klaue? At best - you kill him and you have the gratitude of your partner,
and if you want to off her you still have the chance to do so while she's grateful and not considering protecting herself from you. At worst you
miss and hit her instead, in which case she dies and you have to chase after Klaue. Shooting her right away accomplishes... what exactly? Klaue gets to live a few more minutes and you risk a more intense fire fight.


Maybe he was a fan of Speed?

Not a very good fan (or not a very good shot) - the whole point there is to disable the hostage survivably...

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:03 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yeah, and that section of the park that Disney eventually "got around to putting up" has the most popular rides in the park by a significant margin.

Now that is the last thing I would have expected – though I'm sure the Disney marketing folks would want very much for everyone to believe that even if it wasn't the case. Might I ask where you heard that?

EdgarJPublius wrote:Because that's my favorite MCU movie so far, with Black Panther and Thor: Ragnarok tied for a close 2nd&3rd.
I didn't find it so fantastic that I would actively seek it out to watch it again, but the first Iron Man keeps standing out in my mind. I like how it shows that maybe all this gee-whiz technology isn't going to magically work perfectly the first time it gets put together – something decidedly lacking from Black Panther, though it's hardly alone in that.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:05 pm UTC

I was recently there. Those rides had wait times up to four hours, nothing else broke 90 minutes that I saw. It was also one of the busier areas of the park aside from that, but not by as much of a margin.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:00 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Because that's my favorite MCU movie so far, with Black Panther and Thor: Ragnarok tied for a close 2nd&3rd.
I didn't find it so fantastic that I would actively seek it out to watch it again, but the first Iron Man keeps standing out in my mind. I like how it shows that maybe all this gee-whiz technology isn't going to magically work perfectly the first time it gets put together – something decidedly lacking from Black Panther, though it's hardly alone in that.


Yea, The first Iron Man definitely ranks pretty highly as well.
I think Black Panther has more excuses than most for all the techno-magic "Just Works"ing in that Wakanda's technology is much more mature than Iron Man's, the Royal Spaceship thing has been around for a few decades for example.

I feel like maybe it signifies something that Shuri upgrades the equipment T'Challa uses despite his protests that it works fine, and the upgrades also turn out to work fine.
When the tinkerer/gadgeteer/Q fixes something that isn't broke, it's almost as much of a trope to have the upgraded/fixed version break or do something unexpected as it is to otherwise have highly experimental technology work flawlessly in movies.
Similar to the 'sneakers' thing, it seems like they specifically called attention to Shuri upgrading things that worked fine before, only to subvert the expectation by not having the upgrades cause any problems.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:05 pm UTC

Shuri is canonically the smartest (human) character in the MCU, plus she's making stuff in a state-of-the art lab in the most technologically advanced country in the world, rather than a cave in the desert.

If they succumbed to the usual trope that new tech often fails spectacularly and comically, that would be harder to believe than the fact that it all "just works".
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:56 am UTC

Zohar wrote:That made absolutely zero sense to me.
Spoiler:
What possible reason do you have for not immediately shooting Klaue? At best - you kill him and you have the gratitude of your partner,
and if you want to off her you still have the chance to do so while she's grateful and not considering protecting herself from you. At worst you
miss and hit her instead, in which case she dies and you have to chase after Klaue. Shooting her right away accomplishes... what exactly? Klaue gets to live a few more minutes and you risk a more intense fire fight.


Spoiler:
Agreed.

Shooting her and then not immediately shooting Klaue is...strange. I think they were aiming for the "willing to go through her to get revenge" but the situation as shown doesn't completely sell that as the only possibility. Trying for the headshot on Klaue would have been fine. Shooting her and then immediately shooting Klaue would have been...not as good, but better than shooting her, and then just watching Klaue get away before engaging him.

I'm not opposed to the villainous character setting his priorities poorly, but they ought to be reasonably consistent. Shit, why even wait until then? Why not off Klaue waaay earlier, before the heist? You stole a chunk of vibranium from a museum for....why? Was that part of your plan somehow? Did the revenge plan not occur to you until after the casino scene? If so, that's...a little odd, given the rest of it. If not, then you took a needlessly complicated, costly way of enacting your revenge.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:03 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Zohar wrote:That made absolutely zero sense to me.
Spoiler:
What possible reason do you have for not immediately shooting Klaue? At best - you kill him and you have the gratitude of your partner,
and if you want to off her you still have the chance to do so while she's grateful and not considering protecting herself from you. At worst you
miss and hit her instead, in which case she dies and you have to chase after Klaue. Shooting her right away accomplishes... what exactly? Klaue gets to live a few more minutes and you risk a more intense fire fight.


Spoiler:
Agreed.

Shooting her and then not immediately shooting Klaue is...strange. I think they were aiming for the "willing to go through her to get revenge" but the situation as shown doesn't completely sell that as the only possibility. Trying for the headshot on Klaue would have been fine. Shooting her and then immediately shooting Klaue would have been...not as good, but better than shooting her, and then just watching Klaue get away before engaging him.

I'm not opposed to the villainous character setting his priorities poorly, but they ought to be reasonably consistent. Shit, why even wait until then? Why not off Klaue waaay earlier, before the heist? You stole a chunk of vibranium from a museum for....why? Was that part of your plan somehow? Did the revenge plan not occur to you until after the casino scene? If so, that's...a little odd, given the rest of it. If not, then you took a needlessly complicated, costly way of enacting your revenge.

No argument on the main point of the spoiler. On the secondary point:
Spoiler:
Killmonger wasn't just looking for access to Wakanda - he could have killed Klaue and turned up with his head any time in the last decade or so - and been met by a strong King T'Chaka and shuffled off somewhere where he's not a threat to entrenched power. Or he could have rocked up after T'Challa's coronation and, again, given a position befitting a lesser member of the ruling clan. Killmonger's plan was to embarrass a vulnerable new king before his power and policies could become entrenched, and to establish himself as better by doing something the existing king tried and failed to achieve (because Killmonger was working with Klaue, rescued him from T'Challa's allies, and then betrayed him, but no need to bring up those details).

The heist was a vital part of the plan - either T'Challa did nothing, and Killmonger became the man who acted when the Black Panther was afraid to; or T'Challa tried to capture Klaue for Wakandan justice and failed (either failing to capture in the first place, or failing to keep), in which case, well, we know what happened; or T'Challa succeeded, and Killmonger had to come up with a new plan. With Killmonger's capabilities as a complete unknown to T'Challa and his allies, successfully defending Klaue from him wasn't likely, and, so long as Killmonger was willing to cut his losses and walk away if things didn't seem promising, he had an excellent chance of getting away clean and only marginally worsening his position by allowing T'Challa to succeed (and a success for T'Challa would come at a cost anyway - he couldn't readily have satisfied both the CIA and his own people).

The probability of loss was minimal, the cost of losing was pretty low, the probability of a win was high, and the benefit of winning was a chance to achieve all his strategic aims in one stroke. Seems like a worthwhile gambit to me.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:37 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I was recently there. Those rides had wait times up to four hours, nothing else broke 90 minutes that I saw. It was also one of the busier areas of the park aside from that, but not by as much of a margin.
Huh. Okay, I concede that Avatar's footprint in the cultural landscape is not as negligible as I thought.

gmalivuk wrote:Shuri is canonically the smartest (human) character in the MCU, plus she's making stuff in a state-of-the art lab in the most technologically advanced country in the world, rather than a cave in the desert.
What stuck in my craw, perhaps unreasonably, was the line about "I designed a sonic dampening system for deactivating vibranium at high speeds!" I cannot suspend my disbelief that a system of that size and complexity wouldn't require an arduous prototyping phase hammered out over a span of many years by a gigantic team of engineers. I guess maybe she's a prodigy who designed it when she was twelve, and the marvels of Wakanda include advanced project management techniques, or something.

Speaking of tropes, I could not help but audibly remark "Ah, geez" when
Spoiler:
the bad guy's confiscated superweapon had a tracking device that swiftly pinpointed the secret base of the good guys.

I was expecting that said superweapon would also contain a remote activation/detonation feature that would destroy said secret base, but at least that much was subverted. Instead, they watch helplessly as the bad guys quietly drive off down the street in a delivery van, having just previously pursued them in a dramatic high-speed nighttime chase. Ugh.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:07 pm UTC

colloquially it's not uncommon both for people who head research projects to say they designed/invented them as well as for people are large to refer to those things as made by that single person so, yeah, it is a little unreasonable.

elon musk didn't singlehandedly make falcon heavy or any tesla cars but do you know how many headlines like this there are, MANY, it's a really common construction. literally nobody made these complaints about tony stark talking about stark industries projects (which he frequently also talked about as "his") but let a black girl do it and it's a problem.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:34 pm UTC

natraj wrote:elon musk didn't singlehandedly make falcon heavy or any tesla cars but do you know how many headlines like this there are
I can't say I hear about "Steve Job's Macintosh" or "Bill Gates' Windows", no. Besides, does Musk personally talk about the rockets that way..?

MANY, it's a really common construction. literally nobody made these complaints about tony stark talking about stark industries projects (which he frequently also talked about as "his")
He spends many movies flying through the air in equipment that often fails to work properly.

but let a black girl do it and it's a problem.
Welp, nevermind, guess we can't have that conversation.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:36 pm UTC

If you've never heard Steve Jobs described as the person who created each iPhone until his death, you've been living so deeply under a rock that it's hard to understand how you can even breathe.

Jorpho wrote:Welp, nevermind, guess we can't have that conversation.
Yeah, if you publicly state a racist/sexist double standard and you shut down when attention is called to that, it's true that you've made the conversation impossible.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:41 pm UTC

Yeah, people have been describing Steve Jobs as the most visionary person in the past 30 years and Bill Gates as the devil who brought us Windows and ruined computers for the entire world single-handed (regardless of how accurate or not these statements are).

As for Stark's equipment failing (which for the most part is successful and regularly used), it's already been mentioned Shuri is very very smart. Also no one batted an eye at Stark just figuring out an Iron Man suit in a fucking cave with no testing.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:17 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Jorpho wrote:Welp, nevermind, guess we can't have that conversation.
Yeah, if you publicly state a racist/sexist double standard and you shut down when attention is called to that, it's true that you've made the conversation impossible.
Indeed, that's not what I stated at all. Hence my point.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Weeks » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:22 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
but let a black girl do it and it's a problem.
Welp, nevermind, guess we can't have that conversation.
wait, why. Please tell us why we cant have that conversation. I dont quite understand.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:35 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Jorpho wrote:Welp, nevermind, guess we can't have that conversation.
Yeah, if you publicly state a racist/sexist double standard and you shut down when attention is called to that, it's true that you've made the conversation impossible.
Indeed, that's not what I stated at all. Hence my point.
You didn't explicitly state that you have a double standard like, "Hi I'm Jorpho and I have a racist double standard". What you did was hold Shuri and her tech to a different standard than Tony Stark and Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and other real and fictional white men, you have publicly demonstrated that you have a double standard.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:38 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Also no one batted an eye at Stark just figuring out an Iron Man suit in a fucking cave with no testing.

When whatshisname the villain from Iron Man 1 yelled at a subordinate that TONY STARK BUILT ONE, IN A CAVE, OUT OF SPARE PARTS!11!!!!1ONE!!!ELEVEN, said subordinate did reply "But sir, I'm not Tony Stark." So in-universe at least, people acknowledge that Tony is just a supergenius who can do things that even the ordinary superscientists who work for him can't do.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:58 pm UTC

You're just reinforcing the point that people give Stark slack on this. Shuri is the manager of perhaps the most technologically advanced R&D lab in the world, why would people think she's not as good at her job?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:33 pm UTC

Double post for relevant information - teenage girl breaks her retainer as she watched Michael B. Jordan's shirtless scenes on screen. He then offers to pay for her new retainer. I can't say I blame her, he was absolutely beautiful in that movie.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:12 pm UTC

I saw a lot of comments about that to the effect of, What can I break that MBJ will then personally offer to replace?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:17 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:You're just reinforcing the point that people give Stark slack on this. Shuri is the manager of perhaps the most technologically advanced R&D lab in the world, why would people think she's not as good at her job?
Yeah like I said before, she is apparently canonically the smartest person in the MCU, which means she's smarter than Tony Stark, and is working with a team of people instead of alone in a cave, and is in the most advanced lab in the world instead of...alone in a cave.

That any part of Stark's first suit worked at all is much harder to believe than that everything we see Shuri developing works fine.
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