New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby ameretrifle » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:09 am UTC

Re: Alpha-- ah, that does make more sense. I thought I'd read somewhere that it was someone we'd already seen, but that's probably wrong. (I do not search these things out, so...)

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby mrbaggins » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:20 am UTC

/me has not yet seen Battlestar Galactica, but I am fixing this soon.

Edited for spoilage re: Alpha and his identity and when we find out.
Spoiler:
Interesting that it's Wash. So not his style. Apparently it's discovered in the final ep of the series.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:30 am UTC

WTF?? Spoilers! Spoilers! Put those things in spoiler tags! If you know something that you haven't speculated and it wasn't aired yet, it belongs in a spoiler tag!
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby d33p » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:11 pm UTC

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Spoiler'd.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby sugarhyped » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:19 am UTC

If Alpha is the naked guy when we see the video of echo at college, it really doesn't look like
Spoiler:
alan tudyk (wash)

although i think i'd have to look at him with the dark hair.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:23 am UTC

Agreed.
But in this latest episode, we got a much better glimpse of Alpha in the shower. His backlighting isn't as strong in the angle shown, and it looks a lot like video guy.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby mrbaggins » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:49 am UTC

Who's "Video guy"?

Here's the best 'in focus' shot of Alpha in question from Ep 4 if you want to judge if it's Mr Smurf or not. I don't have the HDTV version of the episode though, so you might get better elsewhere.
Spoiler:
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby sugarhyped » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:25 pm UTC

mrbaggins wrote:Who's "Video guy"?

the naked man watching the echo video.

yeah that most certainly isn't him.

i thought the vault robbery episode was pretty good. i thought a good way to get the guards not to shoot would be use a multi-million dollar piece of art as a shield. the show is getting better with each one i think.

i feel kind of bad for anything joss whedon will do in the future. anything he does gets held up to such a high standard and fans just try to say, " oh thats like so-and-so from buffy" or "firefly was way better than that." ... i just wanted to say that.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Zuffox » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:25 pm UTC

So, what's the temperature on Dollhouse for the rest of us, who didn't bother after the pilot? And what's the differential on it - growing drastically or continuing a steady drop in interest?

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:07 pm UTC

I think they've been getting better. I read an article with Eliza Dushku basically saying that Joss Whedon's real story doesn't kick in 'til about episode six[1], so I'll be watching until at least then, no matter what anyone else says.

Also, this week's episode did a lot more to flesh out Bosslady. Turns out she's not the top of the food chain, so presumably her character will get deeper with having to deal with stress and mistakes on her part, etc. Also more with the Victor/Ballard subplot is always nice.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Malice » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:12 am UTC

Zuffox wrote:So, what's the temperature on Dollhouse for the rest of us, who didn't bother after the pilot? And what's the differential on it - growing drastically or continuing a steady drop in interest?


It's slowly getting better, but for me it hasn't reached "good" yet. In other words, if it doesn't get a lot better than it is now I will cease to watch it. But I'm hoping this is a trend, not random fluctuation.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby mrbaggins » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:32 am UTC

3rd Episode was my "Definitely gonna watch the rest" point.

It was the first episode I actually smiled/smirked at a snide little Whedonesque comment.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Xeio » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:51 pm UTC

So I just watched the first 4 of these on Hulu. Interesting. Also, I'd be scared like a little girl too if I knew alpha was out there... :shock:

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby mikek » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:36 am UTC

After the first two episodes I was pretty close to giving up on this show. Saw the third and fourth episodes last night and they were definitely a step up in terms of writing, plot, and, well, atually being entertaining. Here's hoping.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:16 pm UTC

Episode 5 is pretty good. You get to learn some stuff about Sierra's handler (not his background or anything like that, more of a good look into his moral character).
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:41 pm UTC

headprogrammingczar wrote:Episode 5 is pretty good. You get to learn some stuff about Sierra's handler (not his background or anything like that, more of a good look into his moral character).

Do you mean Echo's handler? Because I don't remember anything about Sierra besides makin' Victor sport a woody.

Also, was Jonas Sparrow on Terminator: TSCC? I think he was a T-888, but I'm not sure...

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby mrbaggins » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:07 pm UTC

You mean "Man reaction"
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby sugarhyped » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:59 pm UTC

headprogrammingczar wrote:Episode 5 is pretty good. You get to learn some stuff about Sierra's handler (not his background or anything like that, more of a good look into his moral character).


i think you are referring to the guy who knocked echo out at the church.
that wasn't sierras handler. he is just the guy in charge of security i believe.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby teamcorndog » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:40 am UTC

Why did he knock out Echo? I get that he's sick of her "glitches", but was he trying to kill her or just put her out of commission? Because if he was trying to kill her...he could have tried a lot harder :P

Also, Ballard's neighbor lady/fangirl. What's her deal? She disturbs me with her stalking and pasta-baking. :shock:

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Ati » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:34 am UTC

teamcorndog wrote:Why did he knock out Echo? I get that he's sick of her "glitches", but was he trying to kill her or just put her out of commission? Because if he was trying to kill her...he could have tried a lot harder :P

Also, Ballard's neighbor lady/fangirl. What's her deal? She disturbs me with her stalking and pasta-baking. :shock:



I think he was trying to kill her in a way that wouldn't cost him his job. As far as the mildly creepy neighbor lady goes, I'm guessing she's just lonely, a little obsessed, and likes him.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:22 am UTC

thatguy wrote:Also, was Jonas Sparrow on Terminator: TSCC? I think he was a T-888, but I'm not sure...


Oh, shit. I got that "seen his face before" thing too. Now that you mention SCC, I think he was the original Cromartie.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby steewi » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:58 am UTC

Ati wrote:
teamcorndog wrote:Why did he knock out Echo? I get that he's sick of her "glitches", but was he trying to kill her or just put her out of commission? Because if he was trying to kill her...he could have tried a lot harder :P

Also, Ballard's neighbor lady/fangirl. What's her deal? She disturbs me with her stalking and pasta-baking. :shock:



I think he was trying to kill her in a way that wouldn't cost him his job. As far as the mildly creepy neighbor lady goes, I'm guessing she's just lonely, a little obsessed, and likes him.


If I can assume that Joss is up to his usual tricks. She won't be "just" anything. The question is whether she's a decoy suspicious extra or a suspicious extra with a real secret.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby McCaber » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:37 am UTC

With Joss's track record, my guess is "dead by the season finale."
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Stabable Offense » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:42 am UTC

This most recent episode finally gave me some hope for this series I had been indifferent to it till now watching on hulu while I was working on other things but it's looking up and the next few episodes will be getting my full attention.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:17 pm UTC

Yeah, I guess episodes 6+ have minimal network interference, so I'm hopeful.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby mosc » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Stabable Offense wrote:This most recent episode finally gave me some hope for this series I had been indifferent to it till now watching on hulu while I was working on other things but it's looking up and the next few episodes will be getting my full attention.

Well, it is sitting on my box and I was debating deleting it. Oh well, what's one more. I'll give this show yet another shot it doesn't deserve.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Lirri » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:39 am UTC

After reading through this thread I decided to give Dollhouse another shot. I stopped after the third episode and couldn't bring myself to watch the new ones.

I enjoyed the fourth episode because of the arc involved, however the fifth episode turned me off once again. If the previous post was right that the series doesn't get really good until the sixth episode, I'll hang around until then.

The redeeming qualities for me have to be that Amy Acker is in it, however her role is completely different than Fred's was in Angel.

Can't stand Laurence Dominic's character anymore. It's not as much that he takes his job too seriously, it's just we already know the ends he'll go to to protect security at the Dollhouse. Since there isn't a line that he won't cross, nothing he does will surprise me at all in the series.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:52 pm UTC

Lirri wrote:The redeeming qualities for me have to be that Amy Acker is in it, however her role is completely different than Fred's was in Angel.


Well her role changed on Angel as well, you know. :)
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby aleflamedyud » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:18 am UTC

God damn it, I hate you Joss Whedon. I hate you! You think, oh, he's finally given up his signature style of making everyone's lives as miserable as possible. Yes, he has.

Spoiler:
But it turns out that the person now in a happy relationship is actually a Doll. Fucking Mellie is a Doll. FUCK. Though I am glad it meant she could beat the fuck out of that ex-Handler they sent to kill her.

Also, I actually believe every word of that speech Echo gave about a "corrupted imprint" and stuff to Ballard. Why? Because by now Joss must know us so well that he'd expect us to expect that it's all lies fed to Ballard to throw him off the trail. Thus, the thing that most subverts our expectations is for it to be real. This may go into an infinite anticipation loop, actually.


So yeah, fuck fucking Joss and his fucking interesting shows with good action scenes and fleshed-out characters.

And next week's trailer? Oh boy. They're acting like the Dolls are going to actually start remembering everything. Bullshit. They wouldn't give that much away so early in the series.

Or would they? Dollhouse has really been written like a show its creator only expects to last one season. It's been advancing the plot every single episode!
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Ati » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:34 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:God damn it, I hate you Joss Whedon. I hate you! You think, oh, he's finally given up his signature style of making everyone's lives as miserable as possible. Yes, he has.

Spoiler:
But it turns out that the person now in a happy relationship is actually a Doll. Fucking Mellie is a Doll. FUCK. Though I am glad it meant she could beat the fuck out of that ex-Handler they sent to kill her.

Also, I actually believe every word of that speech Echo gave about a "corrupted imprint" and stuff to Ballard. Why? Because by now Joss must know us so well that he'd expect us to expect that it's all lies fed to Ballard to throw him off the trail. Thus, the thing that most subverts our expectations is for it to be real. This may go into an infinite anticipation loop, actually.


So yeah, fuck fucking Joss and his fucking interesting shows with good action scenes and fleshed-out characters.

And next week's trailer? Oh boy. They're acting like the Dolls are going to actually start remembering everything. Bullshit. They wouldn't give that much away so early in the series.

Or would they? Dollhouse has really been written like a show its creator only expects to last one season. It's been advancing the plot every single episode!



I'd be cool with the show only lasting one season, actually. It's an unstable plot arrangement, that has a definitive end point and plausible arc. If it goes for multiple seasons, it'll start to drag. If Whedon has a story to tell, and he can tell it in one good, solid season, so much the better. Now if Terminator gets cancelled, I'm going to be pissed.

I also believe that the message was real, but for different reasons. If it hadn't been real, I suspect there would have been some mention of it in the discussion afterwards. I am suspicious, however. We shall see.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Malice » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:43 am UTC

Holy shit. If anybody wants to see what Dollhouse should have been, go read the original script for the premiere (link). It's exactly what I was hoping for when I tuned in in the first place, and exactly what I didn't get. It promises to be a show about the Dollhouse, not a show about "what Echo is doing this week". It moves fast enough to keep things interesting at every turn, but not too fast for me to keep up. It's dramatic, not generic action.

In terms of characterization, the problem with the actual show is that it stretches the stuff in this script out over five episodes without actually adding anything new. In other words, we don't get to know them that well in the script, but it's a character to time ratio that's perfectly acceptable. Stretch the time out to 5 hours without adding anything, and that ratio becomes unacceptable, so thin that I can barely care about anybody involved.

It also solves the "I don't give a shit about Echo as blank slate" thing by barely showing us any of her engagements, so that the main characters become the staff instead of her; and by moving so quickly that by the end of the episode, she's already on her way to getting a personality. And because the show ties that process to knowledge of her identity before Dollhouse, we actually identify with that person, and actually feel sorry for her and what she's become.

There's also meaning here; this story isn't about what Echo does (which is what the show thus far has showcased), it's about how the people around her feel about it. There are actual conversations here with moral weight, particularly with Boyd. It actually does what Whedon said he set out to do--explore the moral quandaries of this technology and the prostitution it's used for. It's really, really sad that that idea has been basically lost, at least so far.

The fact is, when they told Whedon, "stretch this out into five or six episodes", apparently he didn't want to fuck with his arc, so he added what is essentially filler. Repetitions we don't need (how many times have we seen "uh oh, the actives are getting smarter"?), and long plots dealing with Echo's missions. The reason that added material sucks so badly is that no writer can do well knowing they're just filling time. No fucking wonder this show has been so bad.

Go read it, people. Not just because it's a lesson about the results of compromising an artistic vision. It's an excitement all by itself--an explosion of creativity, an absolute page-turner. I couldn't put it down. It's entertaining--funny, sad, meaningful, and inventive--in all the ways the show on the screen is not. It feels like it was written by the guy who made Firefly. The show feels like it was written by a studio executive. Whoever that executive is, I plan to find him, and I plan to punch him.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:05 am UTC

Well, if episode 6 turns out to be totally different and actually good watchin', someone let me know and I'll start watching from there. I feel no need to waste my time with studio-mandated filler.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Malice » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:37 pm UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Well, if episode 6 turns out to be totally different and actually good watchin', someone let me know and I'll start watching from there. I feel no need to waste my time with studio-mandated filler.


Read the first script. Then watch the new episode. It pretty much picks up right where the other one left off. There are only a few things you need to know, basic changes or additions from the script to the first five episodes. Read the script, then read these:

Spoiler:
1. Ballard didn't meet Echo. He got shot by Russian mobsters, but he got better. The girl who lives across from him has the hots for him.
2. Victor is attracted to Sierra.
3. An active named Alpha went rogue, killed a bunch of people, cut up the doctor's face, and was supposedly killed but turns up most episodes to throw a wrench into whatever's going on. We haven't actually seen him yet. Apparently he knows how to wipe an active remotely.
4. The second in command dude tried to kill Echo last episode, possibly because he's afraid she's "going Alpha".

I think that's it.


But yeah, this episode is actually worth your time, just like the pilot script. Hopefully it's smooth sailing from here on out.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:19 pm UTC

God. Damn.

Everything Malice is dead on. Don't bother with the first 5; do the script, Malice's spoilers, then this. This is the show I wanted. This is completely different (read: better) than the other episodes. I only hope they include a version of the original 1x01 on the DVDs.

Plus,
Spoiler:
Patton Oswalt
as a guest star is just icing on the cake.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Zeroignite » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:39 pm UTC

The last episode was the first episode that had me shouting astonished expletives at the television. (Just watched it on DVR)
That is a very, very good thing.

At this point, I have zero choice about watching further episodes.

OOPS: I actually had to pause the TV for laughter after "Throw the Kindle at him".

EDIT2: I haven't read the original script yet, but I agree with Malice. Friday's episode was the real beginning of the series.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby netcrusher88 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:57 am UTC

Zeroignite wrote:OOPS: I actually had to pause the TV for laughter after "Throw the Kindle at him".


I just caught that, now that you've said it. I figured they were referring to "the book" as kindling, as they've pretty much disposed of law. Which didn't make nearly as much sense as Amazon's new toy.
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby thatguy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:27 am UTC

The "corrupted implant" brings up several interesting points:

Spoiler:
Is Topher the double-agent? He sends his assistant-girl away to finish the implant...
Is Langdon in on it? He did distract Topher in "the middle of [his] thing."

Some other implications of the latest episode:

Spoiler:
Is it Topher's technology? It's been painted like he's the foremost expert on the Brain StationTM, but maybe he's just one of a fleet of Dollhouse machine operators...
Does Alpha or "The Corruptor" know about Millie? Will Ballard stop confiding in her, or just stop leaving her alone?

Also, if anyone wants a pdf of the script Malice was talking about, just PM me.

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:27 am UTC

So this recent actually good episode is 106, right? I'll go, uh, "switch on" my "television".

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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:42 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:So this recent actually good episode is 106, right? I'll go, uh, "switch on" my "television".

You don't need to BitTorrent; it's on Hulu. And watching on Hulu actually adds to their ratings to keep the show on the air!
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Re: New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse

Postby Jack Saladin » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:43 am UTC

It's also North American only!


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