New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

[cephalopod9]

Spoiler:

Seriously?
What could she have possibly done with plans to a super weapon besides giving it away in whole unexamined? Tell me that is not a question you are seriously struggling with.

You know what? THis show is stupid and I hate it. Did they seriously spend an entire episode on building a remote-wipe tazer, multiple episodes even, and No one thought to have it handy for an anticipated Alpha attack?

[headprogrammingczar]

It doesn't work on Alpha, by virtue of it not working on Echo either, which was only vaguely mentioned when they said Echo was unwipeable.

[Voco]

Spoiler:

Well, they already have something gun-shaped that can remotely incapacitate Alpha--an actual gun. I don't really think they're all that interested in finding less lethal ways of dealing with him, and as we learned, it wouldn't work on him anyway.

[Malice]

Spoiler:

Seriously?
What could she have possibly done with plans to a super weapon besides giving it away in whole unexamined? Tell me that is not a question you are seriously struggling with.

Spoiler:

What exactly are you suggesting she do with it? Wipe and imprint her superior (whose name I still can't remember)? As established in the last episode, Topher isn't able to do what they did to the senator--they can only give the guy a completely new personality, and thus Rossum would notice. Should she start building an army by hand by wiping random people on the street? I'd argue that would be an even more uncharacteristic evil turn. The super-weapon is quite useful to a multi-national corporation out to influence politics; it's not nearly as useful in the hands of one person who just wants a little bit more power than she currently has and then to be left alone. The point of that weapon is that it can make dolls; that's not nearly as useful to Adelle as having control over the hundreds of dolls living in the house.

[ameretrifle]

Spoiler:

Seriously?
What could she have possibly done with plans to a super weapon besides giving it away in whole unexamined? Tell me that is not a question you are seriously struggling with.

Spoiler:

What exactly are you suggesting she do with it? Wipe and imprint her superior (whose name I still can't remember)? As established in the last episode, Topher isn't able to do what they did to the senator--they can only give the guy a completely new personality, and thus Rossum would notice. Should she start building an army by hand by wiping random people on the street? I'd argue that would be an even more uncharacteristic evil turn. The super-weapon is quite useful to a multi-national corporation out to influence politics; it's not nearly as useful in the hands of one person who just wants a little bit more power than she currently has and then to be left alone. The point of that weapon is that it can make dolls; that's not nearly as useful to Adelle as having control over the hundreds of dolls living in the house.

Spoiler:

Topher learns pretty quick; it was, at first, his only redeeming characteristic. Having seen it, I find it hard to believe he couldn't recreate the whole partial-imprint thing eventually, or else someone would have killed him by now. Not that it's necessarily a good plan; I just disagree that he couldn't do it.

The thing is, why does she have to use the super weapon at all? If it's not useful to her, why can't she just leave it where it is? Has she not divined by now that her objectives and Rossum's objectives may not dovetail as neatly as she thought? I still don't understand why they actually gave her the House back instead of just taking the plans and screwing her over like they could have... and "goodwill"? Seriously? "Goodwill"? Rossum? "Goodwill"? They will hesitate even slightly to kill her and hide the body? Rossum? Rossum? What?

Just because she doesn't have any use for the thing doesn't mean she's got to hand it over to the people who have been actively betraying her for the last four episodes, lying to her for probably at least a decade by now, and don't show the FAINTEST sign of letting up in the future... Pissing off Topher in the process, might I add, which was something she really should have been avoiding at all costs. If she controls Topher, she DOES control the Dollhouse. If she really wanted to get her power back and be left alone, that's the angle she should've been working. THAT'S the way you fight a "secret conflict". Instead, she went the "kiss my boss's ass" route, which, with her treacherous whores of bosses, just does not seem to me like the more viable option.

See, the bosses don't actually have any more faith in her than they did before. They got what they wanted so they're letting her have her toys. The toys are far more powerful than they think, it's true. But she's lost them, now.The people of the Dollhouse were her greatest assets. To some extent, even Boyd and Ballard trusted her; Boyd would've been with her, and with enough work and enough plausible lies, I think she might've got even Ballard on her side, as long as she pretended she was on Echo's. But that chance is pretty much gone. It is the very definition of a Pyrrhic victory-- another like that and she's undone. She might have her Dollhouse back now, but how long do you think she's going to keep it?

[Nath]

Finally caught up with the last few episodes. It does seem like they're rushing through the plot. On one hand, it beats adventure-of-the-week. On the other hand, rushing through it like this wastes some dramatic potential. For instance, the takeover could have been a good multi-episode arc, rather than something that popped up over a commercial break and was neatly sorted out by the end of the episode.

The Perrin episodes were good, but I thought the end was a bit unclear. This wouldn't have been much of a problem if it hadn't dovetailed into the confusion at the start of the following episode (which, to be fair, was mostly caused by my not paying attention when it said 'Three months later').

Clarity aside, Meet Jane Doe was the weakest episode in a while. It relied too heavily on Echo and Ballard, who happen to be played by the two worst actors in the cast. It also suffered from the plot acceleration; when a show like this has to resort to training montages, you know they're trying to cram too much character advancement into too little time. Then there was the change in DeWitt. I don't know whether this is something they're going to explore a little more, or just a result of the fact that they tried to fit three months of character development into a few minutes. I've got to admit, though, Olivia Williams is doing a good job running with it.

The show returned to form with A Love Supreme, even though the title sounds like a specialty pizza topping.

Spoiler:

Alpha's joker moments were pretty great. And does the client who exploded on the roof look familiar? He should.

However, I don't think the episode had the emotional impact it was going for. Ballard has always been a wishy-washy, unconvincing sort of character, so I don't particularly mind his sort-of-death. It's strange; Helo wasn't a bad character on BSG. Maybe this just isn't a good role for the actor.

[cephalopod9]

[It's been up on hulu for almost a week, I think I'm done with spoiler tags]
The remote wipe did work on echo. That was the whole plot of The Left Hand, and everything between Omega and then was dependent on the wipes continuing to be temporarily effective. He's expecting them to bring guns, he's not expecting them to directly attack his brain.
And really, what excuse do they have to not try every possible solution when dealing with a psychopath that can kill you in seconds?

What exactly are you suggesting she do with it?

Anything!

Spoiler:

hold on to it until they can build a defense,
bargain it off piece by piece
make a better bargain then "here you go"
get a better bargain in writing
hide it
sell it on e-bay
draw attention from other efforts to complete it
stall
get in to see the people in charge,
brainwash the top people in charge
gather allies, create a dollhouse competitor
tell Alpha Rossum has it
plot with Topher
destroy it
go public with it
rule the word.
Do I need to go on?

Other than immediately giving away the first bit of leverage she's had in a while. I don't even care that it's evil, it's the worst strategical move possible.

I'm holding out some faint hope that she managed to at least sabotage them discreetly, or else has some other plan in motion to destroy Rossum before they get a chance to build it.

Otherwise it's all a pretty transparent rush to get things in position for Epitaph 1 (from what I've gathered from spoilers) in the midst of Joss's "everyone dies" stage of getting canceled, with an extra helping of evading letting (what looks to be the director stand in) Topher do anything wrong ever (aside from the afore mentioned completely failing to extend any of his oh so special redundant security measures to a hard copy) as I'm sure someone more interested in solving interesting puzzles than anyone else's well being could never be tempted with the opportunity to redesign life as we know it in his image.

[BlackSails]

How hard is it really to make sure that people you dont want inside dont get inside? Its not like this is a public place. There should be a single entrance, everything else should be really thick rebar concrete. The one entrance should have armed guards with orders to shoot anyone that looks like Alpha.

And really, what excuse do they have to not try every possible solution when dealing with a psychopath that can kill you in seconds?

A bullet is more reliable than untested prototype technology that might not even work on Alpha anyway.

[aleflamedyud]

I'm pretty sure that the Dollhouse only does have a single entrance with armed guards. I can pretty easily believe that Alpha killed the armed guards.

[Voco]

I have a new theory about Adele:

Spoiler:

Maybe she gave up the plans because of Alpha. Alpha is, after all, a very dangerous genius, and she'd be a fool to try to manipulate him through deception. But she could still manage to exert some degree of control over alpha ONLY by surrendering her own. That is, Alpha is smart enough to understand the plans, well informed enough to learn that they've got them, and curious enough to want them. By giving the plans to the higher-ups, she may just have managed to sick Alpha on them. Of course the plan wouldn't have worked if she had retained any control over the plans--then Alpha would have simple come after her again. Only by unconditionally surrendering all power over the figurative hot potato could she shift the target away from herself. Of course, the plan involves giving Alpha a super-weapon, but he is already capable of killing her, and this won't really damage her much further. From Adele's individual perspective, nothing is really lost by letting Alpha take the weapon and damage her adversaries in the process.

[gmalivuk]

I'm pretty sure that the Dollhouse only does have a single entrance with armed guards. I can pretty easily believe that Alpha killed the armed guards.

Or that he got in the same way he got in before, with Ballard?

[BlackSails]

I'm pretty sure that the Dollhouse only does have a single entrance with armed guards. I can pretty easily believe that Alpha killed the armed guards.

Im talking a fortified entrance. A long hallway with no cover, and trained marksmen behind bulletproof glass at the far end. A few arrow loop sort of things for firing out of. At the entrance to the hallway from the outside is a guard station where they check ID. If someone goes through the guard station without being announced, the marksmen riddle them with bullets.


On Adele giving up the plans: I think shes just willing to whatever it takes to keep her own small bit of power. She is very Machiavellian.

[aleflamedyud]

I agree that Adelle Dewitt is power-hungry and Machiavellian, but I'm with cephalopod9: there were much smarter, more Dewitt-y things she could have done to get her power back and by nice coincidence, those things wouldn't have doomed the human race. I mean, she seriously couldn't have had Topher romance Bennett into giving her the way to "graft" an imprint onto a preexisting personality, built an non-Active imprinting machine and grafted YOU WILL TRUST ADELLE DEWITT WITH ALL THE POWER SHE WANTS into Harding's mind?

[aleflamedyud]

OK, can somebody who saw the whole thing instead of just the last 20 minutes possibly explain the first episode from tonight to me? I started watching midway in and it was really confusing, really fast. What the hell was everyone except Echo doing with their original personality?

The second episode, "The Attic" was straight-up awesome. I don't know how much sense it actually made, but it was The Matrix done right.

EDIT: And to answer the speculation, yes, Dewitt played a long game. She had a scheme running that came to fruition in "The Attic". GO TEAM GOODGUYS!

[ameretrifle]

OK, can somebody who saw the whole thing instead of just the last 20 minutes possibly explain the first episode from tonight to me? I started watching midway in and it was really confusing, really fast. What the hell was everyone except Echo doing with their original personality?

The second episode, "The Attic" was straight-up awesome. I don't know how much sense it actually made, but it was The Matrix done right.

EDIT: And to answer the speculation, yes, Dewitt played a long game. She had a scheme running that came to fruition in "The Attic". GO TEAM GOODGUYS!

That. Was. AWESOME.

Spoiler:

Okay, so the first episode starts with Victor's contract running out. He's a soldier, as we knew, I think his name's Andrew, and they give him back his original personality and set him up in a hotel room as per usual. And then a bunch of special ops guys break in and kidnap him. Turns out they're from the obligatory paramilitary branch of Rossum, and they have this whole hivemind scheme going. Boyd and Topher get worried when Victor drops off the grid and they figure out what's going on. So they send Echo out to rescue him, and she brings Priya along because Victor will remember her, which is pretty much the only way to secure his cooperation. (Priya instead of Sierra, because she remembers loving Victor, and also remembers things like how to buckle a seatbelt without being told.) And it works. Huh, that didn't take as long to summarize as I thought it would.

That last episode. SO AWESOME. I think that shot with the glass of [whatever the hell drink it was] on Boyd's desk was when Adelle chose her side; I think that was the significance of the shot. That's how it seemed to me at the time, but I was fooled into thinking she chose Rossum's side because of the whole debacle last week... The whole thing might've been a long game, but because of how short they're having to cut it, I think it's also still possible that she had honestly given up at the time she gave them those plans, and after Boyd's "Come on, where's all the ass-kicking?!" speech, she finally got herself back in gear and cut ties with the company for good. I'm not sure which is right-- I'm leaning toward the second myself, but I don't think there's any solid reason it couldn't go either way. They really are packing this in too fast, but it is better than how slow it was before. I wish they had time to devise a happy medium, but clearly they don't...

I was hoping from the beginning of the second ep that they'd bring Dominic back, and they did, and it was awesome. I don't know why I was so happy to see him-- I guess the greatness of his exit left me permanently fond of him. I'm also interested to see what happened to Ballard, and how he was dissuaded from shooting Adelle. I assume she told him what she was actually doing, but time constraints... Or it could have something to do with "what they had to take away", and I'm really interested to see where they're going with THAT plot thread.

Anyway, yeah, that was fantastic. It's all set up now, and I can't wait to see how it goes down.

[aleflamedyud]

Personally I think that what they "took away" was his combat skills.

Funny, though, because it's another instance of the show relying on real neurology. People who have suffered tumors, strokes, and aneurysms really have regained many of their original skills by way of the brain repurposing sections to perform functions originally performed by the damaged centers.

[ameretrifle]

I was thinking that too, but... well, I suppose what we saw him do wouldn't require that much in the way of "combat skills". It'd be an awfully specific thing to reroute, but they're not exactly going for hyperrealism. I also thought it might be memories, but when they mentioned Echo he knew what they were talking about, so it couldn't be the cliche "forget the one you love" thing unless they're being utterly unfair with the writing. Thank god. >_>

[aleflamedyud]

Just noting, but as I'm watching my torrented copy of "Stop-Loss" I just realized that Boyd reserved a suite for Anthony at the Hyperion Hotel. Nice shout-out, guys.

[BlackSails]

Dollhouse has a new fight choreographer. Its no longer practical muay thai-like stuff, but now its all crazy ninja shit that you would seen in a B-grade kung fu film.

[Voco]

I was willing to give them a pass on that since it was

Spoiler:

all imaginary anyway.

If the crazy 20-foot kicks continue, though, I will be disappointed.

[Nath]

Dollhouse has a new fight choreographer. Its no longer practical muay thai-like stuff, but now its all crazy ninja shit that you would seen in a B-grade kung fu film.

I think the Muay Thai stuff is mostly Ballard -- I vaguely remember reading that the actor trains in it. Caroline has always been mostly doing Whedon-jutsu -- i.e., lots of silly high kicks. Although episode 9 did have a half-hearted wrist lock and a rear naked choke.

EDIT: And to answer the speculation, yes, Dewitt played a long game. She had a scheme running that came to fruition in "The Attic". GO TEAM GOODGUYS!

Wasn't a major spoiler, but it'd have been nice if this was hidden, given that it was posted on the night that the episode aired.

Given that DeWitt was plotting against Rossum, it's strange that she actually gave them Topher's tech.

[ArgonV]

Well, maybe she changed the tech before handing it to Rossum and hid the originals somewhere safer than where Topher hid them?

[Voco]

Well, maybe she changed the tech before handing it to Rossum and hid the originals somewhere safer than where Topher hid them?

Seems unlikely. I don't think she has the level of technical knowledge necessary to even read the blueprints, let alone redesign them in a way that looks like it would work, but doesn't. I think she just gave them the tech.

[Nath]

The other thing that bugged me was the ending.

Spoiler:

How did Echo know she could pull a Neo/Jesus? How did she revive the other two? IIRC, CPR doesn't actually restart a stopped heart.

Still, in spite of all the nits I could pick, I quite liked this episode.

[aleflamedyud]

The other thing that bugged me was the ending.

Spoiler:

How did Echo know she could pull a Neo/Jesus? How did she revive the other two? IIRC, CPR doesn't actually restart a stopped heart.

Still, in spite of all the nits I could pick, I quite liked this episode.

Maybe Echo's got one of those Buddhist monks that have ultra-high levels of conscious control over their autonomic nervous system in that head somewhere.

[BlackSails]

I thought she faked dying, so the computer unlinked from her to prevent data corruption, and then she woke up and slaughtered everyone

[Xeio]

Spoiler:

How did Echo know she could pull a Neo/Jesus? How did she revive the other two? IIRC, CPR doesn't actually restart a stopped heart.

It doesn't matter if she was sure she could. If she couldn't, they already failed, so she had to try. Luckily, since we get to see the good guys win she can. I dunno about the other two.

[Amnesiasoft]

Given that DeWitt was plotting against Rossum, it's strange that she actually gave them Topher's tech.

I was more under the impression it was Echo's little chat with her that changed her mind.

[aleflamedyud]

Given that DeWitt was plotting against Rossum, it's strange that she actually gave them Topher's tech.

I was more under the impression it was Echo's little chat with her that changed her mind.

If it was, her ability to bring the team together so soon while knowing that Echo could retrieve those secrets truly catapults Dewitt from Chessmaster to Magnificent Bitch.

[ameretrifle]

Given that DeWitt was plotting against Rossum, it's strange that she actually gave them Topher's tech.

I was more under the impression it was Echo's little chat with her that changed her mind.

Yeah, same here, I didn't think it was properly a "long game" at all. I think that little hungover chat with Boyd was when she finally decided to get over it and do something-- there was that lingering shot on the glass that hovered there way too long to be meaningless. I took it as shorthand: she's leaving the liquor behind and getting back to ass-kicking. At first I was decieved as to which side it was, but the conclusion, I think, is essentially correct. Giving Rossum the technology was a moment of weakness. She was desperate and depressed and she just wanted everything back to normal, wanted to stop the obvious and pathetic humiliation of being old what's-his-name's errand-girl. Depressed because it finally got through to her that they don't value her at all, or her employees-- that all her talk about helping these people was ultimately a lie. Even if half of them signed up for it, they're never really set free, they're not really "fixed"-- and knowing that, it becomes harder and harder to ignore the other half who got pushed into it under duress. So, she changed her mind. And it will be badass.

Like I said before, it could still have been a long game; the way they've compressed things, we don't really have enough data to tell what she was really thinking, and it's possible we never will. But that's my take on it. I think it would've been a lot more clear over a longer span of episodes.

It also remains to be seen what exactly she wants out of this little revolution. Hopefully her motives align with Echo's... but this would also be the perfect, if not the only, opportunity to take over. If that's her plan, then she REALLY qualifies for Magnificent Bitch status.

(In fact, I posted something very like this yesterday, but forum migration. >_>)

[Amnesiasoft]

I think it would've been a lot more clear over a longer span of episodes.

Like I said, I feel the whole story could've been paced just right over 3 seasons. Too bad there wasn't an unbreakable five game three season contract.

[MiB24601]

I think it would've been a lot more clear over a longer span of episodes.

Like I said, I feel the whole story could've been paced just right over 3 seasons. Too bad there wasn't an unbreakable five game three season contract.

They're clearly compressing several seasons worth of storylines into the second season. My reasoning for this is as follows:

Spoiler:

"Epitaph One" seems like it encompasses the original plans for how the storyline was supposed to progress from the end of the episode "Omega" through to the start of the Imprint Apocalypse.

One of the scenes we saw in "Epitaph One" was a memory of Paul being the handler for Echo. Echo was imprinted with the personality of a Russian girl to help Ballard take down the Russian mob. As we see in the scene, Echo is able to control the imprinted personalities but it seems to be causing her massive headaches. Also, Echo didn't drop the Russian persona until after Topher was gone, making it seem that Topher didn't know about Echo's meta-personality abilities. However, from the last few episodes, there wasn't any time that this event could have happened. Echo didn't have those abilities until after she came back from her three-months being MIA and once she got back, Topher knew about Echo's abilities. Additionally, the headaches seem to no longer be the series issue that we saw in that scene.

So, it seems that the Echo storyline over the past few episodes was actually supposed to be over a much longer span of time, which would have allowed for that scene to exist comfortably within the continuity of the show. However, the most recent episode "The Attic" had a scene showing the Russian girl personality but that scene was just imagined by Echo. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Another scene that was in "Epitaph One" that doesn't seem like it will fill in continuity anymore is the scene of Victor being imprinted with the head of the Rossum corporation. Unless the next few episodes have "the conspiracy," as Topher called it, decide to continue to use Victor as a doll, instead of keeping his original personality intact, that scene won't fit in continuity either.

Anyway, it seems apparent that the plotline was meant to go at a slower pace, to allow the story to be fleshed out more. While I don't mind the faster pace, I just wish that the entire series had gone at this pace, as it would have made Dollhouse a much better show.

[Nath]

I thought she faked dying, so the computer unlinked from her to prevent data corruption, and then she woke up and slaughtered everyone

Maybe, but how did she know how to fake dying?

Anyway, it seems apparent that the plotline was meant to go at a slower pace, to allow the story to be fleshed out more. While I don't mind the faster pace, I just wish that the entire series had gone at this pace, as it would have made Dollhouse a much better show.

I think the average amount of plot per episode has been about right, but the distribution has been way off, with plot-free episodes and plot-soaked episodes. If the entire series had moved as quickly as the last few episodes, it would have been disorienting.

[ameretrifle]

I think the average amount of plot per episode has been about right, but the distribution has been way off, with plot-free episodes and plot-soaked episodes. If the entire series had moved as quickly as the last few episodes, it would have been disorienting.

That is exactly the conclusion I've come to. Blast Fox for causing the first 5-6 episodes anyway. With those condensed a bit, they maybe could've got the plot spread more evenly, and told the story in 2 or 3 seasons without this breakneck pace. Don't get me wrong, it's way better than the fluff, but there's just so much we're missing. Not just the ambiguities in the scenes we're shown-- there's so much we're not seeing, so much that might've been even more awesome if it'd had a bit more space to unfold. Not that I would've wanted Drunken!Adelle to stick around very long, but an episide or two would've allowed more time for her to sink in, more time to explore her motivations. As it is we still don't know what the hell she's doing, and I don't think that "wait, WHAT did that Senator guy do at the end of the episode?!" conversation we had was intentional, either. As awesome as the latest episodes have been, it's hard to shake that sense of missed opportunity. But, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who are going to have a lot of fun filling in the blanks.

[Amnesiasoft]

Epitaph One stuff

Well, the idea behind Epitaph One was that we'd get at least some kind of closure if it was canceled. I think somewhere else any discrepancies between it and future episodes have been handwaved away as "faulty imprints," or something along those lines.

[aleflamedyud]

Epitaph One stuff

Well, the idea behind Epitaph One was that we'd get at least some kind of closure if it was canceled. I think somewhere else any discrepancies between it and future episodes have been handwaved away as "faulty imprints," or something along those lines.

I think Whedon said that those flashbacks were recorded memories, and therefore didn't necessarily happen entirely as portrayed even if the message they convey would remain essentially true.

[headprogrammingczar]

Maybe it was one possible scenario simulated in the Attic?

[Nath]

Speculation:

Spoiler:

You mean the memories, or Epitaph One itself? Because the latter would be pretty cool. A nice way to sweep the inconsistencies under the rug. And we already know that the Attic has simulated the apocalyptic scenario.

[headprogrammingczar]

Spoiler:

The latter, actually. The Attic is sorta like time travel in Heroes, you can use it to sweep whatever inconsistencies you want under the rug, just by saying "alternate timeline" or "this sequence was simulated". Although, in the case of the Attic, it implies that Rossum knows a lot about Adelle's plan, since judging from the other episode, each iteration doesn't take much time to complete.

[Amnesiasoft]

Spoiler:

it implies that Rossum knows a lot about Adelle's plan

How so? Rossum doesn't have any interest in what nightmare is recurring inside the people's brains, they're just making the nightmare happen so their brains work at full capacity for their supercomputer farm. To what end? I don't know, but I don't imagine they actually care what's going on inside those people's heads. Though I'm sure Rossum knows they're up to something since 3 of the people she just sent to the attic have all escaped.