Doctor Whom

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby TaintedDeity » Thu May 19, 2011 12:47 pm UTC

Moo wrote:You know what bothers me about the Doctor and River? No real spoilers but just in case...
Spoiler:
I would buy that we see the series as (mostly) a chronological progression through the Doctor's experiences. And I get and love that they meet out of order and that time is timey-wimey. But that they meet EXACTLY in the reverse order of River's own timeline? Really? How likely is that?

Sure, it makes for some great heart-string-tugging scenes and lines but I would have been much happier if they never knew who was ahead of who (of Who?).
Spoiler:
I think originally it was all out of order, but recently they've played up the lovers-in-reverse angle which, yeah, I don't like as much. River haing to carry around the diary and just check where they are is fun. Not knowing which River you're going to get is pasrt of why I liked her.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby crowey » Thu May 19, 2011 1:32 pm UTC

it still doesn't have to be entirely in reverse, the middle bit can still be all timey-wimey.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby phlip » Thu May 19, 2011 1:55 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Honestly, if it was strictly, or even mostly-strictly, in reverse order, it wouldn't make fit with what we've seen... because it wouldn't make sense for River to carry her diary and try to synch up with the Doctor every time. I mean, every time they do it, there'd be nothing in common between the two. And River didn't seem particularly surprised when she met 1103yo-Doctor and they actually had experiences in common.

On the other hand, the few appearances we've seen so far have all been later in the Doctor's life and earlier in River's life every time, and River seems to already be aware of that fact (and so we know that at least the previous few visits from River's point of view were like this, which makes them the next few appearances from the Doctors, and thus our, point of view), so... yeah.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby sugarhyped » Thu May 19, 2011 3:34 pm UTC

Moo wrote:You know what bothers me about the Doctor and River? No real spoilers but just in case...
Spoiler:
I would buy that we see the series as (mostly) a chronological progression through the Doctor's experiences. And I get and love that they meet out of order and that time is timey-wimey. But that they meet EXACTLY in the reverse order of River's own timeline? Really? How likely is that?

Sure, it makes for some great heart-string-tugging scenes and lines but I would have been much happier if they never knew who was ahead of who (of Who?).



I don't think they will go in the exact order.
Spoiler:
Basically what that implies is whatever shared experience they are going through at that exact moment is their only shared experience because all of the doctor's experiences are in river's future and vice versa.

Small counter-example, in the series opener the twelve-hundred year old doctor sees River and they had done a bunch of stuff that he and River both remember. (I think it had to do with a fish). Then River sees nine hundred year old doctor and they are back to what we are used to, but it shows that it doesn't HAVE to happen in exact reverse.

Hopefully that won't be the only time.

Actually, in regards to this season and the last season finale.
Spoiler:
Isn't all the Pandorica stuff in River's past? I wonder if she remembers all that or not. I cannot remember if it was explicitly said at any point. If so, than another example of how it is not exact reverse order.


I'm not spoiling this. The fact that they synchronize diaries means that it isn't exact. They do have some shared memories. Also in the Library episode
Spoiler:
The last time she saw the doctor he was in a new suit and gave her the sonic. Because that wasn't the second time the doctor ever saw her that will definitely not be exact reverse.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Moo » Thu May 19, 2011 4:17 pm UTC

Agreed that in the past it wasn't "reverse synced" but I could have sworn something was recently said that made me think it was now suddenly all exact reverse for River. For example,
Spoiler:
I thought we were supposed to take it as read that since that was the first kiss for the Doctor, it was her last, cue heart wrenching.
I hope y'all are right. I'll rewatch ep 4 of the current season some time and see if I can figure out where I got that notion from.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby AvatarIII » Thu May 19, 2011 4:52 pm UTC

Moo wrote:Agreed that in the past it wasn't "reverse synced" but I could have sworn something was recently said that made me think it was now suddenly all exact reverse for River. For example,
Spoiler:
I thought we were supposed to take it as read that since that was the first kiss for the Doctor, it was her last, cue heart wrenching.
I hope y'all are right. I'll rewatch ep 4 of the current season some time and see if I can figure out where I got that notion from.


i think she only assumes it's her last, but I guess if firsts and lasts are "synced" it doesn't definitely mean that anything in between will be.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Whelan » Thu May 19, 2011 5:49 pm UTC

Got y'alls a present. Spoiler for big image.
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Game_boy » Thu May 19, 2011 6:26 pm UTC

I think they're having it both ways.

They can say it's exact for the emotional drama (like the kiss).

Then they can not actually use that, because it makes the scripts more viable if you don't need to write around that constraint.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Mo0man » Thu May 19, 2011 7:35 pm UTC

It's also possible that she's just wrong. She's terrified at the prospect of him having his first kiss and she'll never be able to kiss him again, but that doesn't actually mean that she's never going to kiss him again
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby mrface » Thu May 19, 2011 10:21 pm UTC

Whelan wrote:Got y'alls a present. Spoiler for big image.
Spoiler:
Image

Can't you just picture it, though? I mean, their combined badassery would be unstoppable.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby NonSequitur » Fri May 20, 2011 2:30 am UTC

The really important question here, given Catherine Tate's recent appearance, is:
Could the Doctor be the next manager of Dunder Mifflin?
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Whelan » Fri May 20, 2011 8:50 pm UTC

This is why 10 > 11.
Spoiler:
Image
"I like to be understood whenever I open my mouth; I have a horror of blinding people with science"- Richard Dawkins
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TaintedDeity wrote:And all I get is this tame space dragon. Where's my recognition?!
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby AvatarIII » Fri May 20, 2011 9:09 pm UTC

Image
open spoilers if you dare.
Spoiler:
Image
Last edited by AvatarIII on Fri May 20, 2011 9:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby bigglesworth » Fri May 20, 2011 9:12 pm UTC

No, you'll start the jumper argument again!
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby AvatarIII » Fri May 20, 2011 9:47 pm UTC

i've edited my post, hopefully to avoid that :D

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Angua » Sat May 21, 2011 6:46 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Why does Amy always go off by herself? Also, was she standing in the way of acid mist and fine?
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby AvatarIII » Sat May 21, 2011 7:19 pm UTC

Angua wrote:
Spoiler:
Why does Amy always go off by herself? Also, was she standing in the way of acid mist and fine?

Spoiler:
she has a deathwish, also i guess the acid mist wasn't concentrated enough to damage her,
my biggest question is, if the acid-suits cost more than the ganger, why do the gangers wear them at all?
i didn't know it was a 2 parter! i'll be looking forward to part 2 all week, this is such a strong series this year.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Viae » Sat May 21, 2011 7:24 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I screamed like a wounded bear when the fist exploded on to the screen. Blimey. Helluva episode.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Giant Speck » Sat May 21, 2011 8:59 pm UTC

Spoiler:
"Trust me. I'm the Doctor."

Oh me yarm NEXT WEEK IS GONNA BE GOOOOOOOOD
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Link » Sat May 21, 2011 9:14 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote:
Angua wrote:
Spoiler:
Why does Amy always go off by herself? Also, was she standing in the way of acid mist and fine?

Spoiler:
she has a deathwish, also i guess the acid mist wasn't concentrated enough to damage her,
my biggest question is, if the acid-suits cost more than the ganger, why do the gangers wear them at all?
i didn't know it was a 2 parter! i'll be looking forward to part 2 all week, this is such a strong series this year.

Spoiler:
My guess: for every ganger who dies with a suit, a much greater amount would die or lose limbs without one, and the cost of one suit and one ganger is lower than that of, for example, no suits and ten gangers. What I'm more concerned about is the grievous lack of proper safety codes. Death may be cheap, but not having any deaths at all is cheaper, and writing up some simple rules like "don't fool around when you're on the job" is essentially free and would save a lot of money and time (which, of course, equals money) in the long run.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Robert'); DROP TABLE *; » Sat May 21, 2011 10:23 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Someone on another forum points out that the Astronaut killing the Doctor isn't so much of a sure thing now.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby AvatarIII » Sat May 21, 2011 10:33 pm UTC

Robert'); DROP TABLE *; wrote:
Spoiler:
Someone on another forum points out that the Astronaut killing the Doctor isn't so much of a sure thing now.


good point

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Various Varieties » Sat May 21, 2011 10:56 pm UTC

Robert'); DROP TABLE *; wrote:
Spoiler:
Someone on another forum points out that the Astronaut killing the Doctor isn't so much of a sure thing now.

Spoiler:
I thought that, but at that point in the first episode, doesn't Amy say something like "it's got to be a clone or a robot or something" and River confirms it's the original? Now obviously River could be fooled by a clone that's absolutely indistinguishable, but I took that less as dialogue from her character and more as Steven Moffat providing a shorthand dismissal of that line of thinking: "You should speculate about other theories, fans!" So after that, for me it'd be a bit of a cop-out if the eventual solution does turn out to be merely a clone rather than a more interesting timey-wimey explanation.

Also, would a Ganger-Doctor undergo the beginnings of the regeneration process (gold glow etc), as Shot-Future-Doctor did? It'd be a very exact clone if it did! :)

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby AvatarIII » Sat May 21, 2011 11:15 pm UTC

Various Varieties wrote:
Robert'); DROP TABLE *; wrote:
Spoiler:
Someone on another forum points out that the Astronaut killing the Doctor isn't so much of a sure thing now.

Spoiler:
I thought that, but at that point in the first episode, doesn't Amy say something like "it's got to be a clone or a robot or something" and River confirms it's the original? Now obviously River could be fooled by a clone that's absolutely indistinguishable, but I took that less as dialogue from her character and more as Steven Moffat providing a shorthand dismissal of that line of thinking: "You should speculate about other theories, fans!" So after that, for me it'd be a bit of a cop-out if the eventual solution does turn out to be merely a clone rather than a more interesting timey-wimey explanation.

Also, would a Ganger-Doctor undergo the beginnings of the regeneration process (gold glow etc), as Shot-Future-Doctor did? It'd be a very exact clone if it did! :)

Spoiler:
the doctor did say that the gangers were pretty good copies, he statedthat the one that was electrocuted had a "human heart" why could docleganger not copy whatever organ timelords have for regenerating?

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby bigglesworth » Sat May 21, 2011 11:17 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I believe they contain timey-wimey parts, the Flesh isn't advanced enough (nor is hardly anyone not from Gallifrey, going by the "Empires would tear this world apart for one cell" line.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Magnanimous » Sat May 21, 2011 11:22 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I thought this episode was pretty boring/derivative, but it looks like the second part will be awesome. I was a little disappointed they used the "hey look a sapient human who wasn't created biologically, is it a real person?" plot... BSG did it better.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby AvatarIII » Sat May 21, 2011 11:25 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:
Spoiler:
I believe they contain timey-wimey parts, the Flesh isn't advanced enough (nor is hardly anyone not from Gallifrey, going by the "Empires would tear this world apart for one cell" line.

Spoiler:
the flesh seems to be as advanced as whatever it copies, and the doctor put his hand in the flesh, so it perhaps got one of his cells, which should be enough to clone him, which is possible


something else i noticed in this ep was the return of the psychic paper!, i heard we'd seen the last of it.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat May 21, 2011 11:30 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The episode format is pretty old-fashioned. Sort of Tom Baker-eqsue in that humans are just as much villains as the "monsters".
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Whelan » Sun May 22, 2011 12:37 am UTC

Spoiler:
I'm very reminded of the nestnene consciousness and the Autons.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Magnanimous » Sun May 22, 2011 2:07 am UTC


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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 22, 2011 2:25 am UTC

Whelan wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm very reminded of the nestnene consciousness and the Autons.


Spoiler:
The Autons were around in a then-present time story with Jon Pertwee, so I doubt it's related.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Triangle_Man » Sun May 22, 2011 2:55 am UTC

Spoiler:
Well, looks like things will be interesting next week.

I will say, though, that the working conditions in the factory are horrible if they need to use human clones to provide even a meager amount of 'safety'.

Also, why do they need that acid anyways?
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby animeHrmIne » Sun May 22, 2011 7:43 am UTC

This episode:
Spoiler:
I was freaked the fuck out. Not terrified, like the Silence tend to make me, but the thought of another Doctor is giving me horrible panicky feelings. It's just ... oh gods, I don't know, but it hurts to think about. Which is odd, because I think that they're all being stupid when they're denying Jessica and the rest as non-human, when they obviously are. I just feel like another Doctor could be really, really bad.

Loved Rory in this episode. He's actively taking part in the action, more than in any others, really, besides possibly the Hungry Earth/Cold Blood two-parter (which ended up with him dead, not good). I mean, he was useful in a bunch of episodes, but he's never really fought for what he thinks. He's a tad submissive, which is a perfectly fine character trait, but I like it when he gets passionate about something. I'm guessing there was a lot of that when he was the Lone Centurion, which makes me sad that we missed that.

I also liked how, even though they were copies, they all seemed to have slightly different attitudes than the originals. Like, whereas Original!Cleaves was very anti-copies and very gung-ho about killing them, Copy!Cleaves seemed more hesitant. And Copy!Jimmy seemed much more emotional than Original!Jimmy.


Also, upset that next Saturday the BBC is going to be marathoning Doctor Who all day instead of giving us new episodes. -_-
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby eSOANEM » Sun May 22, 2011 8:16 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Whelan wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm very reminded of the nestnene consciousness and the Autons.


Spoiler:
The Autons were around in a then-present time story with Jon Pertwee, so I doubt it's related.


Spoiler:
Time travel's hardly out of the question though so I think it's still perfectly possible for the flesh to evolve into the nestene consciousness and the autons.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby phlip » Sun May 22, 2011 9:20 am UTC

Spoiler:
I was really expecting Rory's status as an Auton copy (or at least his memories of such, which it's been established he still has) to come up, when he was going out of his way to help the plastic Jennifer in the story... maybe that'll come up next week.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Viae » Sun May 22, 2011 9:23 am UTC

Spoiler:
I think that's his motivation, certainly, but they just didn't go HAY GUISE HE'S DOIN IT COS HE EMPATHISES WITH HER SITUATION. Which I applaud them for
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby pi(e)lover » Sun May 22, 2011 11:18 am UTC

animeHrmIne wrote:Also, upset that next Saturday the BBC is going to be marathoning Doctor Who all day instead of giving us new episodes. -_-


Where have you heard that? AFAICT it's the next episode of the 2-parter next week, same as normal, then (I think) the break until the second half of this series restarts.

...unless you mean BBC America?

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Game_boy » Sun May 22, 2011 11:46 am UTC

bigglesworth wrote:No, you'll start the jumper argument again!


What argument?
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby AvatarIII » Sun May 22, 2011 2:42 pm UTC

pi(e)lover wrote:
animeHrmIne wrote:Also, upset that next Saturday the BBC is going to be marathoning Doctor Who all day instead of giving us new episodes. -_-


Where have you heard that? AFAICT it's the next episode of the 2-parter next week, same as normal, then (I think) the break until the second half of this series restarts.

...unless you mean BBC America?


i thought there was going to a single episode before the break with a mid-season cliffhanger.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby pi(e)lover » Sun May 22, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

BBC website says past 2 will be on next week, although it looks from the episode lineup like the halfway cut will come the week after that:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/news/bulletin_110521_01


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