Doctor Whom

Rot your brains, then rot our boards

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Echo244
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:49 am UTC
Location: Ping! Ping! Ping! Ping!

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:01 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Was not a fan of this week's Dr Who:
Spoiler:
The Doctor's reasoning for not taking Ishielda seemed a bit poor. Ishielda is going to probably forget this again in a few decades or so. They aren't going to keep Sam Swift alive to give her some company, so that lesson is either useless or foreshadowing that this is getting worse.

Also, how come Jack never seemed to lose all his memories.


Ditto

Spoiler:
Ashielda/Me seemed to be totally overplayed as a sulky teenager, rather than someone with a few hundred years worth of wisdom. The grief at losing children but *not* using the nanomedkit made no sense. The whole Sam Swift thing was just a bit annoying, and the comedy and drama didn't seem well stitched together. Ashielda's background - storyteller/giant-wooden-puppet-maker - just got flung away and now she's some sort of amoral thief adventurer? I just don't buy it. Not the actress' fault.
Unstoppable force of nature. That means she/her/hers.
Has committed an act of treason.

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Flumble » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:17 pm UTC

IMO it lacked witty dialogue. I like witty dialogue. They had very witty dialogue at the start of the season with missy and davros; why not ashildr? They even started out with funny banter at the start of the episode. There's so much to talk about regarding immortality and social consequences, but it's mostly an appeal to emotion and the doctor just saying "no" instead being open to a discussion.

Moreover, I didn't get the lion character. He was trying to be fearsome yet didn't actually harm anyone (...important; a few peasants probably did die, but you can't tell from the wonky camera shots :roll: ), summoned an army through a portal yet asked nicely not to close the portal. The fire-breathing reflects this: unconvincing.


And there's clearly a lack of Clara in this episode. :P

User avatar
Jorpho
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:31 am UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:47 am UTC

Between the Fisher King and this lion thing, the costume department seems to be putting in a lot of work on things that barely get any screen time.

Vanity Fair recently posted this gushing analysis of how much better things are now. They do not mention $%^!* electric eels.
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/201 ... e-williams

I must admit from the clip they played on the episode, it completely flew over my head that they were riffing on Capaldi having previously played the guy from Pompeii.

User avatar
moody7277
Posts: 523
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:06 pm UTC
Location: Extreme south Texas

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby moody7277 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:53 pm UTC

Spoiler:
So, I wonder where in the UK they found a desert looking enough place to try to film Truth or Consequences. I could tell it was still the UK because the center line on the road was white not yellow. Actress playing the sheriff also accidentally sounded a Irish a couple of times.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

User avatar
Giant Speck
Bouncy Sex Marshmallow
Posts: 3798
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:30 pm UTC
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Giant Speck » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:50 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:
Spoiler:
So, I wonder where in the UK they found a desert looking enough place to try to film Truth or Consequences. I could tell it was still the UK because the center line on the road was white not yellow. Actress playing the sheriff also accidentally sounded a Irish a couple of times.

Spoiler:
The uniform of the cop who gets lured into the church by his "mother" has an Italian flag on it, which I suppose is actually supposed to be a Mexican flag, which would still not be correct. They fucked up twice.
"Did I say recently that I love Giant Speck? Because I love Giant Speck. He is the best." - Weeks

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:06 pm UTC

Giant Speck wrote:
moody7277 wrote:
Spoiler:
So, I wonder where in the UK they found a desert looking enough place to try to film Truth or Consequences. I could tell it was still the UK because the center line on the road was white not yellow. Actress playing the sheriff also accidentally sounded a Irish a couple of times.

Spoiler:
The uniform of the cop who gets lured into the church by his "mother" has an Italian flag on it, which I suppose is actually supposed to be a Mexican flag, which would still not be correct. They fucked up twice.

Spoiler:
These most be the worst-trained members of UNIT _ever_.

"Ok, so all of our family members are randomly in the same church, can't actually remember _anything_ about us despite us asking pretty simple questions your basic ID thief could ace, and are asking us to come inside what we already know is a hideout for an armed, hostile insurrection, whether these are our real family members or not. Meanwhile, our CO is screaming at us to follow procedure and actually get proof that these are our family members, and not just trust them for shits and giggles. Seems legit!"

Elsewhere...

"Well, we're a trained unit familiar with the abilities of these shapeshifters who are raiding a hive of them. Let's not carry cheap $5 transponders or even livestrong bracelets that could mark us as the real deal, or anything. We're very prepared!"

I love how Rick and Morty called out utter bollocks like the latter situation, because the drama in this season relies on some...just grossly stupid decisions from characters who should really know better. It's getting difficult to enjoy despite how much I like Capaldi.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Echo244
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:49 am UTC
Location: Ping! Ping! Ping! Ping!

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:22 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
Spoiler:
These most be the worst-trained members of UNIT _ever_.

"Ok, so all of our family members are randomly in the same church, can't actually remember _anything_ about us despite us asking pretty simple questions your basic ID thief could ace, and are asking us to come inside what we already know is a hideout for an armed, hostile insurrection, whether these are our real family members or not. Meanwhile, our CO is screaming at us to follow procedure and actually get proof that these are our family members, and not just trust them for shits and giggles. Seems legit!"

Elsewhere...

"Well, we're a trained unit familiar with the abilities of these shapeshifters who are raiding a hive of them. Let's not carry cheap $5 transponders or even livestrong bracelets that could mark us as the real deal, or anything. We're very prepared!"

I love how Rick and Morty called out utter bollocks like the latter situation, because the drama in this season relies on some...just grossly stupid decisions from characters who should really know better. It's getting difficult to enjoy despite how much I like Capaldi.


Spoiler:
Yeah, it's a bit of a pity. I think the series started better, but this latest episode was just falling apart a bit. Nobody except the Doctor or Clara is allowed to be smart. I'm hoping this is the mid-series filler to which nobody was really paying much attention, and things pick up towards the finale.

I do like Capaldi being allowed to play the guitar though.
Unstoppable force of nature. That means she/her/hers.
Has committed an act of treason.

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Flumble » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:28 pm UTC

Can't say I lost my suspension of disbelief wrt. environment or clothing –the sandy location was really sandy, and you can make basically any place in (non-southern) Europe look like any other place in Europe by changing the lighting. :lol:
But yeah, I did lose it when the UNIT special forces couldn't make themselves kill hostile doppelgangers. And when Kate (and that whole UNIT team) somehow forgets to draw her weapon during the Zygon's utterly slow transformation. Seriously, if you want such a stupid* drama scene, just have their weapons jam or be unloaded or whatever, so they go down pursuing their job instead of... this.

It's nice to see the DW-verse version of the current refugee 'crisis' though. Then again, I'm not sure the writers are even going for that, because most of the episode (and probably next episode) is focussed on dismantling the splinter group and it's avoiding all the other aspects of managing immigration.

*It's been done soooo many times on DW and in most cases the victim could've done something much better if it weren't for the script writers
**From what I've read, real drone operators don't get to see faces. An algorithm or other human gets to identify the face and posture, and the operator (who's likely in Europe or Africa instead of the USA anyway) only sees blurred faces and a tag on the target.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:32 am UTC

Giant Speck wrote:
moody7277 wrote:
Spoiler:
So, I wonder where in the UK they found a desert looking enough place to try to film Truth or Consequences. I could tell it was still the UK because the center line on the road was white not yellow. Actress playing the sheriff also accidentally sounded a Irish a couple of times.

Spoiler:
The uniform of the cop who gets lured into the church by his "mother" has an Italian flag on it, which I suppose is actually supposed to be a Mexican flag, which would still not be correct. They fucked up twice.

Spoiler:
That bit was taking place in the Middle East somewhere, and UNIT is supposed to be an international force in the first place, so I'm not sure why you think it's intended to be a Mexican flag, nor why you think they wouldn't have a Mexican soldier involved.


Totally agree that the protocol for engaging suspected shapeshifters seemed nonsensical enough that I can't believe that scene actually portrayed what it purported to - if it doesn't turn out to have been a ruse by someone to make it appear that the UNIT troops were neutralised, I'll be very disappointed.

For that matter, you have to wonder why the UNIT troops were being called "traitors" if they were actually who they appeared to be.

My current guess is that this is all a Zygon civil war, with people like Clara taken out of play in order to keep them safe while things get sorted out.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:43 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Spoiler:
That bit was taking place in the Middle East somewhere, and UNIT is supposed to be an international force in the first place, so I'm not sure why you think it's intended to be a Mexican flag, nor why you think they wouldn't have a Mexican soldier involved.

They said it was in New Mexico. Not sure they ever mentioned the Middle East at any point.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:09 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Spoiler:
That bit was taking place in the Middle East somewhere, and UNIT is supposed to be an international force in the first place, so I'm not sure why you think it's intended to be a Mexican flag, nor why you think they wouldn't have a Mexican soldier involved.

They said it was in New Mexico. Not sure they ever mentioned the Middle East at any point.


There were three locations for Zygon activities - London, the town of Truth Or Consequences in New Mexico, and an unnamed village in the fictional country of Turmezistan. Clara stayed in London, Kate went to New Mexico, and the Doctor went to Turmezistan - which, judging by the flight-path of his return flight to the UK, is somewhere East and a bit South of the UK - I'll admit that the Middle East is not the only possibility, but it seems plausible that it's in the same general area as Afghanistan...

Incidentally, does anyone have any idea how Kate, leaving after the Doctor, and with further to go unless Turmezistan is actually in the Far East, manages to arrive and poke around for a while before the Doctor can get to Osgood?

User avatar
Giant Speck
Bouncy Sex Marshmallow
Posts: 3798
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:30 pm UTC
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Giant Speck » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:14 am UTC

I had my scenes mixed up.

Spoiler:
The cop that turns into a Zygon in New Mexico and presumably kills Kate Stewart is the one with the Italian flag on her uniform.
"Did I say recently that I love Giant Speck? Because I love Giant Speck. He is the best." - Weeks

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:41 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
There were three locations for Zygon activities - London, the town of Truth Or Consequences in New Mexico, and an unnamed village in the fictional country of Turmezistan. Clara stayed in London, Kate went to New Mexico, and the Doctor went to Turmezistan - which, judging by the flight-path of his return flight to the UK, is somewhere East and a bit South of the UK - I'll admit that the Middle East is not the only possibility, but it seems plausible that it's in the same general area as Afghanistan...

Thanks, I completely didn't catch that. There was a lot in this episode that was, honestly, baffling, like how a lot of characters didn't seem alarmed by obviously shifty behavior.

Could it be a slurring (poss. hum'rous) of Turkmenistan?
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Flumble » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:59 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Could it be a slurring (poss. hum'rous) of Turkmenistan?

Nah, that would be too obvious. It's more likely to be a self-declared state between Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan by Zygons. :roll:

In all seriousness, will the plane (that got shot down at the end) turn out to contain Zygons only? Or will the doctor miraculously escape from the plane with the TARDIS or with parachutes or with a missy ex machina?

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:48 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:Could it be a slurring (poss. hum'rous) of Turkmenistan?

Nah, that would be too obvious. It's more likely to be a self-declared state between Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan by Zygons. :roll:

In all seriousness, will the plane (that got shot down at the end) turn out to contain Zygons only? Or will the doctor miraculously escape from the plane with the TARDIS or with parachutes or with a missy ex machina?


We don't see the plane get shot down - we see the missile approaching, and we hear an explosion, but we don't see the result (and we hear the explosion well before sound from it could have reached the camera, but that's probably just TV science for you...)

It's possible that the Doctor wasn't actually on the plane and something was relaying his phone signal through it, or it's possible the plane wasn't actually shot down, or it's possible that the Doctor waved a magic wand to escape.

They really should have his escape work by using things already established in the episode, so planeload of Zygons seems like the most likely answer. On the other hand, after Missy and Clara's escape trick from the first episode cliff-hanger, I'm not holding my breath for them to start playing fair now...

User avatar
Jorpho
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:31 am UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:13 am UTC

ELECTRIC EELS.

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Flumble » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:28 am UTC

Hehe, that made me giggle :lol:


rmsgrey wrote:We don't see the plane get shot down

Yeah, I noticed that, and since it was right at the cliffhanger moment, there's a good chance the missile exploded mid-air because Missy threw an electric eel at it. You know, because planes entail Missy and because
Jorpho wrote:ELECTRIC EELS.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby KrytenKoro » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:37 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:On the other hand, after Missy and Clara's escape trick from the first episode cliff-hanger, I'm not holding my breath for them to start playing fair now...

That...really pissed me off. They're almost directly telling the audience "start off with the assumption that no one important will get hurt", which...if you can't even believe in the drama with suspension of disbelief, then what's the point?
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Giant Speck
Bouncy Sex Marshmallow
Posts: 3798
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:30 pm UTC
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Giant Speck » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:56 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:ELECTRIC EELS.


Turn me on with your electric feel.
"Did I say recently that I love Giant Speck? Because I love Giant Speck. He is the best." - Weeks

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Flumble » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:57 pm UTC

It exceeded my expectations! Both in terms of the resolution of the cliffhanger (spoilers: no missy and no electric eels involved) and the resolution of the episode. So much witty dialogue. :D

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:49 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:It exceeded my expectations! Both in terms of the resolution of the cliffhanger (spoilers: no missy and no electric eels involved) and the resolution of the episode. So much witty dialogue. :D


They do seem to be building Clara up a lot - which worries me a little, particularly since this is Jenna Coleman's last series of the show - it's not going to be easy for her to walk away, so they're probably going to do something drastic which will just make it even more awkward when she guest stars in a special...

Okay, to be fair, Rory and Amy seem to have stayed gone so far, but still...

And, yeah, I liked the ending - and the climax - though some of the bits in between may have been a bit wobbly.

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Flumble » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:49 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:They do seem to be building Clara up a lot - which worries me a little, particularly since this is Jenna Coleman's last series of the show - it's not going to be easy for her to walk away, so they're probably going to do something drastic which will just make it even more awkward when she guest stars in a special...

Clara had barely a single line this episode, what build-up?! :P
If they let her die a mediocre death next episode (like Danny), there's still two more episodes to find her soul and store it in The Library or in Donna's head or in a parallel universe(!!!!!) or inside the TARDIS itself. And then Danny can join in too, and an AI copy of the whole class so they can live happily ever after. And then it turns out that it was a dream all along and Matt Smith returns to avoiding Trenzalore.

rmsgrey wrote:Okay, to be fair, Rory and Amy seem to have stayed gone so far, but still...

I wouldn't mind a Clara comeback every now and then (unless the parallel universe thing happens again). :roll:
She even has the advantage of being inside the doctor's timestream already, so she can pop up no matter how many times she "dies for real this time". :D


On an unrelated note: what ever happened to the leaked episodes of last season? I'm interested in seeing what a not-quite-finished episodes looks like. But I can't find any on torrent sites.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:30 am UTC

Flumble wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:They do seem to be building Clara up a lot - which worries me a little, particularly since this is Jenna Coleman's last series of the show - it's not going to be easy for her to walk away, so they're probably going to do something drastic which will just make it even more awkward when she guest stars in a special...

Clara had barely a single line this episode, what build-up?! :P


Oh, little things like giving her credit for the way the Time War ended, and for turning Bonnie around - or the mention of the longest month of the Doctor's life - Clara's being painted as uniquely special to the Doctor - eclipsing even Rose Tyler and Amy Pond, let alone the classic series Assistants...

Flumble wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Okay, to be fair, Rory and Amy seem to have stayed gone so far, but still...

I wouldn't mind a Clara comeback every now and then (unless the parallel universe thing happens again). :roll:
She even has the advantage of being inside the doctor's timestream already, so she can pop up no matter how many times she "dies for real this time". :D


She was in the timestream of the Doctor who died of old age on Trenzalore - when he regenerated into Capaldi, that changed things, so she shouldn't be turning up again that way.

User avatar
Jorpho
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:31 am UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:48 am UTC

That whole timestream thing was a big ragged mess, and it is too much to hope for that they're going to find some way to write around it. I predict they're just going to keep it swept under the rug and never mention it again.

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5660
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Angua » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:47 pm UTC

Maybe it's just me, but I didn't find the dialogue that witty, the speeches went on too long, and I didn't think Bonnie's reasoning made any sense whatsoever. Also:

Spoiler:
did all the Zygons know it said truth or consequences in the boxes? Or was that just pointless? Other than a catch phrase it didn't really have much to do with anything.
'Look, sir, I know Angua. She's not the useless type. She doesn't stand there and scream helplessly. She makes other people do that.'
GNU Terry Pratchett

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:10 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I didn't find the dialogue that witty, the speeches went on too long, and I didn't think Bonnie's reasoning made any sense whatsoever. Also:

Spoiler:
did all the Zygons know it said truth or consequences in the boxes? Or was that just pointless? Other than a catch phrase it didn't really have much to do with anything.


As a slogan, "Truth or Consequences" makes as much sense as "Live Free or Die", particularly in context:

Spoiler:
The rebel Zygons' complaint was that they were being forced to pretend to be something they felt they were not, so they wanted either "Truth" - a voluntary reveal - or they'd impose "Consequences" - terrorist action, open rebellion, and conquest of the planet

User avatar
moody7277
Posts: 523
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:06 pm UTC
Location: Extreme south Texas

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby moody7277 » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:35 pm UTC

You will never enjoy that one scene from Back to the Future again.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5660
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Angua » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:16 pm UTC

WTF was that???

Spoiler:
I guess the Doctor failed and morpheus will kill all of humanity? Would have been better if it had been the 'semi-sentient' computer going mad, I think. Also, don't understand - if the machines are supposed to concentrate sleep, then why was the person who'd been awake for 5 years inside one of the morpheus pods still?
'Look, sir, I know Angua. She's not the useless type. She doesn't stand there and scream helplessly. She makes other people do that.'
GNU Terry Pratchett

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:44 pm UTC

Angua wrote:WTF was that???

Spoiler:
I guess the Doctor failed and morpheus will kill all of humanity? Would have been better if it had been the 'semi-sentient' computer going mad, I think. Also, don't understand - if the machines are supposed to concentrate sleep, then why was the person who'd been awake for 5 years inside one of the morpheus pods still?


Rule 1: The Doctor lies.

Corollary: the villain gets to lie as well.

There's nothing like an unreliable narrator to explain away holes in the plot...

User avatar
Echo244
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:49 am UTC
Location: Ping! Ping! Ping! Ping!

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:28 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Flumble wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Okay, to be fair, Rory and Amy seem to have stayed gone so far, but still...

I wouldn't mind a Clara comeback every now and then (unless the parallel universe thing happens again). :roll:
She even has the advantage of being inside the doctor's timestream already, so she can pop up no matter how many times she "dies for real this time". :D


She was in the timestream of the Doctor who died of old age on Trenzalore - when he regenerated into Capaldi, that changed things, so she shouldn't be turning up again that way.


I... nyuh, she was in the timestream of all previous Doctors as well, right back to the start telling William Hartnell which TARDIS to steal should steal him. I see no reason for there to have been any changes that broke his timestream in the way he got a batch of extra regenerations. I'm actually kind of disappointed that the timestream thing got used then, but we haven't been tripping over alt-Claras all over the place since then.

Anyway. This latest episode:

Spoiler:
I'm actually really annoyed about this one. The sound design was atrocious, I couldn't hear the dialogue over the background noise, even with the volume up it didn't help. Immersion ruined, there went any effectiveness of the episode. I mean, not too bad an idea - sleep monsters - but underdeveloped (or maybe it was but I couldn't hear it), then it degenerated into corridor running and an ending focussed on making you think you'd be turning in to a crumbling sleep-monster. Not great, though obviously setting the idea up to bring the monsters back. Maybe they'll be better used next time.
Unstoppable force of nature. That means she/her/hers.
Has committed an act of treason.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:02 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Flumble wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Okay, to be fair, Rory and Amy seem to have stayed gone so far, but still...

I wouldn't mind a Clara comeback every now and then (unless the parallel universe thing happens again). :roll:
She even has the advantage of being inside the doctor's timestream already, so she can pop up no matter how many times she "dies for real this time". :D


She was in the timestream of the Doctor who died of old age on Trenzalore - when he regenerated into Capaldi, that changed things, so she shouldn't be turning up again that way.


I... nyuh, she was in the timestream of all previous Doctors as well, right back to the start telling William Hartnell which TARDIS to steal should steal him. I see no reason for there to have been any changes that broke his timestream in the way he got a batch of extra regenerations. I'm actually kind of disappointed that the timestream thing got used then, but we haven't been tripping over alt-Claras all over the place since then.


Sorry, it was unclear that I was meaning all regenerations of the Doctor that were going to finally die on Trenzalore once they eventually ran out of regenerations, rather than the specific regeneration that ended on Trenzalore.

The timestream's manifestation on Trenzalore was the result of the Doctor dying on Trenzalore. From the Doctor's perspective, that was a fixed point - something that couldn't be rewritten without time unravelling. But then the Time Lords intervened from outside the universe, rewriting time so that the Doctor didn't die on Trenzalore, so his timestream wasn't there for Clara to enter, despite Clara and the Doctor having memories of that having happened. It's kinda like when Rory got erased and Amy almost managed to remember him - they remember something that didn't happen.

Anything before Capaldi also happened before history was changed, so Clara could have turned up there as a paradoxical remnant of something that never happened, but anything involving Capaldi or later Doctors only happens after history was changed, so there was never a non-paradox scenario where Impossible!Clara could interact with them.

User avatar
MiB24601
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:13 pm UTC
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby MiB24601 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:19 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:The timestream's manifestation on Trenzalore was the result of the Doctor dying on Trenzalore. From the Doctor's perspective, that was a fixed point - something that couldn't be rewritten without time unravelling. But then the Time Lords intervened from outside the universe, rewriting time so that the Doctor didn't die on Trenzalore, so his timestream wasn't there for Clara to enter, despite Clara and the Doctor having memories of that having happened. It's kinda like when Rory got erased and Amy almost managed to remember him - they remember something that didn't happen.

Anything before Capaldi also happened before history was changed, so Clara could have turned up there as a paradoxical remnant of something that never happened, but anything involving Capaldi or later Doctors only happens after history was changed, so there was never a non-paradox scenario where Impossible!Clara could interact with them.


I've been curious what Moffat's original plan would have looked like as aired. There were interviews with Moffat where he explained that the Trenzelore plotline was supposed to take place over several episodes, instead of one special, which would have allowed for an explanation of all the things that were dismissed with a hand wave during the special. Unfortunately, Matt Smith leaving the show when he did changed all that.

I'm also curious what the 2010 season would have looked like if David Tennant did one last season that year, rather than leaving in 2009. If nothing else, more 10/River Song episodes would have done a better job of making her a multi-Doctor companion, rather than nearly an 11th Doctor exclusive companion.
"There's no point being grown-up if you can't be childish sometimes." - The Fourth Doctor, Doctor Who

User avatar
Jorpho
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:31 am UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:50 pm UTC

Isn't she going to be making another appearance in an upcoming episode? I thought I read that somewhere.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:34 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:Isn't she going to be making another appearance in an upcoming episode? I thought I read that somewhere.


She's supposed to be in the Christmas special.

User avatar
charliepanayi
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:26 pm UTC
Location: London, UK

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby charliepanayi » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:33 am UTC

Spoiler:
Well, that was kind of unexpected. That Arya Stark is lethal really. Though I guess Clara might not be really dead or something, this is Doctor Who after all.
"Excuse me Miss, do you like pineapple?"

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve it through not dying"

rmsgrey
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:36 am UTC

charliepanayi wrote:
Spoiler:
Well, that was kind of unexpected. That Arya Stark is lethal really. Though I guess Clara might not be really dead or something, this is Doctor Who after all.

I already spotted one loophole.

Spoiler:
"They always run. Why do they always run?" - if that's true, then it's possible that, by actually facing and accepting the raven, Clara's situation is different from the situation of everyone else killed by the thing - it's not much of a loophole, but it may be enough.

On the other hand, with Clara leaving the series to play Queen Victoria on the other side (ITV - the BBC's traditional rival), it's likely that she's not going to recover from this one.

It does continue the new series trend of Companions having trouble getting away from the Doctor - they can't just settle down and live their lives any more (well, except for Martha Jones) - they have to be sealed in an inaccessible dimension, or unable to see the Doctor without their head exploding, or hidden behind a temporal paradox somehow, or, now, dead...

Of course, the Zygons may offer another loophole, depending whether the newer Osgood remembers Clara well enough.

On the whole, if it is her farewell, I can live with it - it's a better ending than most - though it would be nice to have another Companion who manages to retire rather than being forced out of the role.

User avatar
Jorpho
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:31 am UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:29 am UTC

Spoiler:
Verily, the biggest problem with "death" is that it is so regularly eluded as to be mostly robbed of much of its profundity. It would have been a very touching little death scene in other circumstances, but I spent the whole time thinking "They're going to fudge this somehow", and I still think that's what's going to happen. Being sentenced to a life of domestic tedium would be a refreshing change of pace.

It particularly occurs to me that letting someone die after declaring she is under one's protection is going to be astonishingly bad PR.

I kind of like how they suggested that Clara's had something of a death wish after losing Mr. Pink, but it seems to me further exploration of something like that would be a little too deep for DW.


ETA:
Spoiler:
It's a bit daft that the Doctor conveniently forgot that the Janus cremated their dead, isn't it?

I'm betting that somehow in the hugs he managed to trick the Quantum Shade into tracking him somehow so he can get back from wherever. Alternatively, didn't the TARDIS still have more than one key, such that depriving him of just one would be rather useless?

User avatar
SlyReaper
inflatable
Posts: 8015
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:09 pm UTC
Location: Bristol, Old Blighty

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby SlyReaper » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:57 am UTC

Spoiler:
I was expecting him to just take the shade off Clara. I mean, he has a bunch of spare lives again.
Image
What would Baron Harkonnen do?

User avatar
Link
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:33 am UTC
Location: ᘝᓄᘈᖉᐣ
Contact:

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Link » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:41 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Clara forgot Rule #0: you don't out-Doctor the Doctor. For every idea you have that you may think is brilliant, the Doctor can probably give you 20 reasons why it's shit.

SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
I was expecting him to just take the shade off Clara. I mean, he has a bunch of spare lives again.
Spoiler:
Yeah, me too. Maybe the shade takes more than a single regeneration, though. I don't see the Doctor actually giving his life (i.e. all of his lives) for anyone other than River Song. And even in her case I'm not sure he'd willingly die on the spot -- giving up his remaining regenerations (which he did for her, once) is still a much easier choice to make.

Unrelatedly, it would be nice if the Doctor got a non-21st century human companion for a change (i.e. either non-human, or a human from a different era). There have been some major recurring characters who fit that bill, but apart from Handles, I think the last "real" companion who wasn't a human from the 21st century was Jack Harkness.

For humans, I'd say maybe go for someone from pre-industrial Asia. There's a rather glaring lack of Asian main characters. Non-humans may be trickier; heavy prosthetics aren't great for a regular companion, and I don't really think they'd go for a "looks exactly like a human but isn't" type of character, unless it's an alien disguised as a human (of which there have been a lot, lately, so maybe it's not that far-fetched).

User avatar
Jorpho
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:31 am UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:56 pm UTC

Oh, and another thing:
Spoiler:
Ashildur mentioned having conversations with Clara, but how would that have happened..?


Return to “Movies and TV Shows”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests