Doctor Whom

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Flumble
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Flumble » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:28 pm UTC

Is it for the better that I delay watching this and last week's episode until the final one is out?

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:28 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:Oh, and another thing:
Spoiler:
Ashildur mentioned having conversations with Clara, but how would that have happened..?


I'm assuming that refers back to the events of the earlier episode.


Flumble wrote:Is it for the better that I delay watching this and last week's episode until the final one is out?


There's definitely a "To Be Continued" at the end of yesterday's episode, but it's something you'll probably want to spend some time processing rather than going straight into the next one - there's more incentive to watch the next one immediately in the "next episode" teaser than in the body of the episode.

I'd say you should be okay to watch this one immediately, and then revisit the possibility of holding off on the next one.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Giant Speck » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:08 am UTC

Spoiler:
Clara: Why? Why shouldn't I be so reckless? You're reckless all the bloody time! Why can't I be like you?


I feel like this line was written in anticipation for all the criticism that Clara has gotten this season.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:16 am UTC

Spoiler:
OK, they finally properly killed a companion. No "nice" trapped-in-another-dimension-with-your-family, no "I just can't see you again or your head will explode", just a straight up "You weren't really all that attached to life, now you're... even less so".

I quite liked Clara, but... I also liked that they killed her. It's been handled quite well, her being increasingly risky until she got into something she couldn't get out of. Very real, and a theme worth exploring.

Meanwhile, the Doctor gets teleported away from the TARDIS, and is more-or-less on the warpath at this point. Should be interesting.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:43 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:I'm assuming that refers back to the events of the earlier episode.

Spoiler:
Except they didn't talk all that much in that episode, and even if they did, that would be Ashildur's very oldest diary entry – assuming she started keeping a diary at all by that point.

Maybe Ashildur was just lying about the conversations..?

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:50 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:I'm assuming that refers back to the events of the earlier episode.

Spoiler:
Except they didn't talk all that much in that episode, and even if they did, that would be Ashildur's very oldest diary entry – assuming she started keeping a diary at all by that point.

Maybe Ashildur was just lying about the conversations..?


Spoiler:
It's a difficult one to lie about, having no remaining memory of the time yourself, but then trying to lie about conversations to someone who has subjectively-weeks-old-at-most memories of the events. I'd say that they happened, off-camera. It's in character for Clara, anyway.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:42 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:
Spoiler:
OK, they finally properly killed a companion. No "nice" trapped-in-another-dimension-with-your-family, no "I just can't see you again or your head will explode", just a straight up "You weren't really all that attached to life, now you're... even less so".

I quite liked Clara, but... I also liked that they killed her. It's been handled quite well, her being increasingly risky until she got into something she couldn't get out of. Very real, and a theme worth exploring.

Meanwhile, the Doctor gets teleported away from the TARDIS, and is more-or-less on the warpath at this point. Should be interesting.


Spoiler:
I thought the "I can't see you again or your head will explode" ending was far more tragic than straight-up death. She had gone out into the universe, seen wonders, and for a short time acquired the knowledge and intellect of a time lord. Then, not only did she have all memory of that wiped, she had to return to a dull life of trivial small-minded tedium. I don't know about you, but I thought that was quite horrific.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:11 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
I thought the "I can't see you again or your head will explode" ending was far more tragic than straight-up death. She had gone out into the universe, seen wonders, and for a short time acquired the knowledge and intellect of a time lord. Then, not only did she have all memory of that wiped, she had to return to a dull life of trivial small-minded tedium. I don't know about you, but I thought that was quite horrific.


Yeah, that's also my problem with various "and then they used time travel so none of the story actually happened, but only resolved the primary conflict rather than also redoing all the incidental good they did on their journey" endings in various media - it turns the incidental good that had been done from a positive thing (lots of people are better off) to a negative thing (lots of people would have been better off, but screw them)

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Nork » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:44 pm UTC

Has anyone else had trouble with the Marvel series Jennifer Jones? I started watching it yesterday and discovered that David Tennant is the villain. I'm currently working through the David Tennant Dr. Who episodes, and it's very jarring seeing a similar character being extremely evil instead of being a force for good. I'd like to finish the Jennifer Jones series first, but I'm probably going to have to finish this stretch of Dr. Who first to avoid tainting my image of the Doctor.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:36 am UTC


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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:56 pm UTC

Nork wrote:Has anyone else had trouble with the Marvel series Jennifer Jones? I started watching it yesterday and discovered that David Tennant is the villain. I'm currently working through the David Tennant Dr. Who episodes, and it's very jarring seeing a similar character being extremely evil instead of being a force for good. I'd like to finish the Jennifer Jones series first, but I'm probably going to have to finish this stretch of Dr. Who first to avoid tainting my image of the Doctor.


I'd avoid watching Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire for a while then...

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Steerpike » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:25 pm UTC

That. Was. Fantastic.

I'm actually disappointed the next episode won't also just be Capaldi (mostly) by himself.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Angua » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:31 am UTC

Really, I hated it.

Spoiler:
Not really a fan of having a character monologue at me for 40 minutes. I kind of figured it was the confession dial pretty quickly - it was circular, they'd taken it away from him, and the creature wanted his 'confessions' (though the repeating thing which is why he was 7000 years in the future was an interesting twist). Haven't really cared much about this 'hybrid' thing as they haven't really built it up very much.

Hoping it's redeemed in the next episode.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:46 pm UTC

One "fridge moment" for me:

Spoiler:
If the Doctor got the idea to attack the barrier from the time anomaly, and the clue he left in the dust near the teleporter, where did that idea come from on the first time through? And why didn't the message reset before he got round to reading it? And why didn't the barrier itself reset?

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Angua » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:37 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Yeah, and it would have taken a couple thousand incarnations before all the skulls in the water started showing up.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:16 pm UTC

Steerpike wrote:That. Was. Fantastic.

I'm actually disappointed the next episode won't also just be Capaldi (mostly) by himself.
I was pretty happy with it too. Best episode in a while, I think. Didn't quite see the ending coming, either. Maybe it's just the sort of thing that tickles me. (I was quite fond of Cube.)

ETA:
Spoiler:
It can't be a coincidence that the word "hybrid" also featured prominently in the Zygons episode, can it? But what could that mean..?

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:29 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:One "fridge moment" for me:

Spoiler:
If the Doctor got the idea to attack the barrier from the time anomaly, and the clue he left in the dust near the teleporter, where did that idea come from on the first time through? And why didn't the message reset before he got round to reading it? And why didn't the barrier itself reset?


Spoiler:
"Where did the idea come from" - that's not quite but almost like the bootstrap paradox, which was covered earlier in the series with the two-parter in the underwater base. The difference here is that it definitely has an initial condition - there had to have been a first time when he blundered through and found room 12, buried the message, managed to set things up within the Confession Dial thingy so that they reset in the way he wanted. Unless the initial conditions included the message and everything else, leading him to room 12, at which point, it was designed for him to escape - but presumably by telling the truth at the final moment, rather than pigheadedly punching his way through several metres of diamond over billions of years. Frack's sake, he never even thought to bring the shovel, at least that would hurt his hand less.

I too figured out where he was long before he did. And yes, 40 minutes of monologue, somewhat overacted... I think he did his best with it, but anything like this is tricky to pull off. I can see how it fits in within the plot - Clara dead, Tardis gone, the Doctor has never been more alone and threatened - but somehow, that wasn't quite pulled together into an individual episode, he needed something more to work against, not just a silent monster. I enjoyed it, but it wasn't stellar.

Oh, and another fan of Cube here...
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby phlip » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:13 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:
Spoiler:
there had to have been a first time when he blundered through and found room 12, buried the message, managed to set things up within the Confession Dial thingy so that they reset in the way he wanted

Spoiler:
The impression I got was that the rooms-resetting thing was just a feature of the dial, not something the Doctor specifically set up on his loops. He was just abusing that feature to do his respawning trick. But he still would have had to figure that out on the first loop, without the clues of a water pit full of skulls, or all the stars being in the wrong place, which were clues he used to figure it out on the loop we did see.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby jaap » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:26 pm UTC


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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:02 pm UTC

phlip wrote:
Spoiler:
The impression I got was that the rooms-resetting thing was just a feature of the dial, not something the Doctor specifically set up on his loops. He was just abusing that feature to do his respawning trick. But he still would have had to figure that out on the first loop, without the clues of a water pit full of skulls, or all the stars being in the wrong place, which were clues he used to figure it out on the loop we did see.


Spoiler:
How about the "I am in 12" message in the grave? We see it reset within the loop, so it must be part of the original state, unless loop-1-Doctor managed to fiddle with something... so it must have been part of the design of the system, and yet a critical piece of information that lead to his (eventual) escape... Hence either the whole place was designed for him to escape from, or he somehow managed to find an exploit that encoded the buried message into the reset state of that room.

Also, the clothes. Did one Doctor die conveniently naked, to leave a set of clothes drying on the fire for a later him to change in to? Or again, was this place created so he'd always have a nice change of clothes for when he leapt out of the window into the water?

I keep finding threads of this to pull at, and this annoys me. It's not a Gordian knot, with all the loose ends cleverly tucked away.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Zamfir » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:01 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Nearly all of the loop must be a designed part of the torture, right? Including the room 12 thing. The torturers want him to admit that he is afraid, to understand that confessing stops the creature, to have tried many ways to escape, to have run out of other confessions. Then at that final point he's shown home behind an infinite barrier, as a taunting last straw to break his will. That's the point where they expect him to spill the goods , and it's only then that he calculates an escape, by setting up a loop.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:29 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Spoiler:
Nearly all of the loop must be a designed part of the torture, right? Including the room 12 thing. The torturers want him to admit that he is afraid, to understand that confessing stops the creature, to have tried many ways to escape, to have run out of other confessions. Then at that final point he's shown home behind an infinite barrier, as a taunting last straw to break his will. That's the point where they expect him to spill the goods , and it's only then that he calculates an escape, by setting up a loop.


Spoiler:
Right. Except it's not quite an infinite barrier, if he can punch through it in a few billion years. There's no reason the barrier can't reset too. There's no reason room 12 can't just be a great big illusion of an exit while really a dead end, and the real exit is the same teleporter he came in through, only with the creature sending him away, happy that he's given up all his secrets.

I mean, I like the idea, and if I suspend my thread-picking I can happily go with it, but it's not too hard to see ways to make this a better trap.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Zamfir » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:00 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Well, sure it could have been a better trap. Make the barrier impenetrable, or they could have watched what he was doing, or just check in once every billion to see why the power is still on. I am willing to give them those for the sake of the story. There was a flaw in the trap, the doctor found it, even if the flaw is a tad unlikely. There have been one or two unlikely things before in doctor Who...

On the other hand, if the story requires him to bury that room-12 tile as part of the plan, then that's an error by the logic of the story itself, isn't ? For some reason, that would bother me . I don't think they've made that error, because the story still makes sense if the tile is part of the demoralization effort. The dry clothing less so, especially with the rearrangement. That hints eternal repeat, which the trap-creators explicitly must have overlooked as possibility.

At a guess: in the earlier drafts of the story, the trap-builders meant for the doctor to die over and over again, hoping that he slips up one time and tells the secret. Then the writers had idea of the diamond as escape, and rewrote the story so that the doctors tricks the system into repeat. But the stylistic elements of earlier drafts are still there, because they fit in the atmosphere

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Nork » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:17 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Nork wrote:Has anyone else had trouble with the Marvel series Jennifer Jones? I started watching it yesterday and discovered that David Tennant is the villain. I'm currently working through the David Tennant Dr. Who episodes, and it's very jarring seeing a similar character being extremely evil instead of being a force for good. I'd like to finish the Jennifer Jones series first, but I'm probably going to have to finish this stretch of Dr. Who first to avoid tainting my image of the Doctor.


I'd avoid watching Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire for a while then...

Barty Crouch was a different enough character that it didn't cause me the same problems. In the first couple Jessica Jones episodes, it felt like I watching the Doctor on a murder spree. After a few episodes they developed Kilgrave a bit more and it became a lot less of an issue.

Alternate answer: Once I realized Kilgrave's bodycount is in the dozens/hundreds, and the Doctor's is in the Billions/Trillions, I figured out which one to root for.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:53 pm UTC

At least the Doctor feels bad about it though.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby KrytenKoro » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:00 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:One "fridge moment" for me:

Spoiler:
If the Doctor got the idea to attack the barrier from the time anomaly, and the clue he left in the dust near the teleporter, where did that idea come from on the first time through? And why didn't the message reset before he got round to reading it? And why didn't the barrier itself reset?

Spoiler:
I thought he said it resets when he leaves the room, and technically he doesn't leave the teleporter room.

Not sure about the wall -- maybe it's because of the material that it is, the disc -can't- reset it? It would take too much energy?
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:10 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
Spoiler:
Not sure about the wall -- maybe it's because of the material that it is, the disc -can't- reset it? It would take too much energy?


Spoiler:
The damage done, per cycle, has the energy level of a man punching a great big block of diamond. If the energy levels are that tight that what he does can't be undone, per cycle, I can't believe it's a stable cycle.

Also, how come the monster resets and accepts the same truths from each new cycle?
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:35 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:
Spoiler:
Not sure about the wall -- maybe it's because of the material that it is, the disc -can't- reset it? It would take too much energy?


Spoiler:
The damage done, per cycle, has the energy level of a man punching a great big block of diamond. If the energy levels are that tight that what he does can't be undone, per cycle, I can't believe it's a stable cycle.

Also, how come the monster resets and accepts the same truths from each new cycle?


Energy:
Spoiler:
Thinking about it, there is some level of "damage" where a block of diamond would simply take the impact elastically and spring back into shape - obviously, we don't know the properties of this super-material, but, assuming you didn't shatter it, would punching a diamond actually change it in any lasting way?


Truth:
Spoiler:
Presumably, the monster is simply programmed to activate in response to the teleporter and pursue the person who materialises from the beginning, and plays out the same program each time. It's even possible that it's a new monster each time, created by the teleport.

Presumably, if you have the technology to achieve it, having the parts of your perfect trap reset is more efficient - you don't need to come up with ways to maintain them that respect the laws of thermodynamics, and can always have it in optimal condition...

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Jorpho » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:18 am UTC

Spoiler:
Considering the whole shebang somehow magically transported him to Gallifrey, quibbling about "why didn't the barier reset" seems misplaced.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:04 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
Spoiler:
Considering the whole shebang somehow magically transported him to Gallifrey, quibbling about "why didn't the barier reset" seems misplaced.

Spoiler:
I reckon it'll turn out to still be Earth, it's just that the Gallifreyans have taken over and planted a city there.


Anyway, the problem is that the solution to the problem was quite elaborate and clever... and yet has an obvious flaw that is never acknowledged. It's not a suspension of disbelief thing, it's an inconsistency thing.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Lucia » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:08 am UTC

Every other room was meant to be wandered through several times, but why reset a room they're only going to visit once?

Anyway: Heaven Sent.
Spoiler:
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:12 pm UTC

Lucia wrote:Every other room was meant to be wandered through several times, but why reset a room they're only going to visit once?

Anyway: Heaven Sent.
Spoiler:
Perfect ending perfect ending perfect ending perfect

I want, SO BAD, for the next companion to be Dame Maggie Smith.

So gotdamn bad.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Echo244 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:14 pm UTC

So. The last episode of this series.

Spoiler:
I LOVED this. Capaldi gets to play guitar, and it's another brainwipe ending for a companion.

But this time, it's the Doctor who gets the brainwipe. Fifty-fifty chance and Clara totally WIFOMs him. He gets the brainwipe, she gets to do the walk-away thing, and fly off in an American diner with someone else who's functionally immortal. Back to her unavoidable death, but... by the scenic route. Packing lifetimes of magic and wonder and saving planets into that one, last heartbeat.

Very much throwing away the idea of everything revolving around one clever man in a magic box with a sonic screwdriver. I loved this.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby moody7277 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:59 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:So. The last episode of this series.

Spoiler:
I LOVED this. Capaldi gets to play guitar, and it's another brainwipe ending for a companion.

But this time, it's the Doctor who gets the brainwipe. Fifty-fifty chance and Clara totally WIFOMs him. He gets the brainwipe, she gets to do the walk-away thing, and fly off in an American diner with someone else who's functionally immortal. Back to her unavoidable death, but... by the scenic route. Packing lifetimes of magic and wonder and saving planets into that one, last heartbeat.

Very much throwing away the idea of everything revolving around one clever man in a magic box with a sonic screwdriver. I loved this.


Spoiler:
Back door pilot for a Clara's Diner spinoff series?
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:02 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:
Echo244 wrote:So. The last episode of this series.

Spoiler:
I LOVED this. Capaldi gets to play guitar, and it's another brainwipe ending for a companion.

But this time, it's the Doctor who gets the brainwipe. Fifty-fifty chance and Clara totally WIFOMs him. He gets the brainwipe, she gets to do the walk-away thing, and fly off in an American diner with someone else who's functionally immortal. Back to her unavoidable death, but... by the scenic route. Packing lifetimes of magic and wonder and saving planets into that one, last heartbeat.

Very much throwing away the idea of everything revolving around one clever man in a magic box with a sonic screwdriver. I loved this.


Spoiler:
Back door pilot for a Clara's Diner spinoff series?


Spoiler:
Jenna Coleman's moved to ITV (the BBC's traditional competitor) to play Queen Victoria, so no spinoff for the foreseeable future. On the other hand, the door's still open for her to guest star from time to time - though both she and Me have the problem of ageing to contend with - the actresses will while the characters shouldn't (incidentally, anyone else wondering how Me managed to get tattooed and pierced?)

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby JudeMorrigan » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:52 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:So. The last episode of this series.

Spoiler:
I LOVED this. Capaldi gets to play guitar, and it's another brainwipe ending for a companion.

But this time, it's the Doctor who gets the brainwipe. Fifty-fifty chance and Clara totally WIFOMs him. He gets the brainwipe, she gets to do the walk-away thing, and fly off in an American diner with someone else who's functionally immortal. Back to her unavoidable death, but... by the scenic route. Packing lifetimes of magic and wonder and saving planets into that one, last heartbeat.

Very much throwing away the idea of everything revolving around one clever man in a magic box with a sonic screwdriver. I loved this.

Spoiler:
My sister raged, and raged hard. I haven't actually seen any of Capaldi's run due to a lack of cable tv. (But am not particularly adverse to spoilers.) She was going to buy me series 8 for Christmas, but is ticked off enough about their turning it into "Clara Who" (her phrasing) that she refuses to give them money.

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Angua » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:30 am UTC

Spoiler:
I was annoyed with the ending - sure it was nice to have the t wisteria of the doctor forgetting Clara, but it felt like nothing much was gained. Clara is basically immortal (why couldn't they have just done that together from the start rather than mind wiping?). Each companion seems to be more Mary Sue than the last.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:37 pm UTC

Angua wrote:
Spoiler:
I was annoyed with the ending - sure it was nice to have the t wisteria of the doctor forgetting Clara, but it felt like nothing much was gained. Clara is basically immortal (why couldn't they have just done that together from the start rather than mind wiping?). Each companion seems to be more Mary Sue than the last.

Spoiler:
The problem was not with Clara being doomed to die, but with the Doctor being obsessed with Clara and willing to see time unravel (yet again) rather than letting her come to harm, and Clara becoming increasingly daredevil through her association with the Doctor.

Basically, the universe can't afford for the two of them to keep traveling together, they both know it, but they couldn't just walk away from each other.

This way, Me also gets a reward, though it's pretty incredible that she still remembers Clara and the Doctor billions of years later - not once in all those eons have her diaries been lost or destroyed...

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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Angua » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:45 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Maybe, but seriously, the Doctor/companion being obsessed with each other and willing to go too far has been the same for basically Rose, Amy (though Rory helped a bit at tempering that one) and Clara.

Also, it used to be a thing with Timelords only being able to control the Tardis properly (which is why it was such a big deal that River could control it but she was born in the Tardis so half timelord). That's obviously gone by the wayside now. Basically anyone can have their own Tardis.
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Re: Doctor Whom

Postby Clix » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:23 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I took the flying off in the dinner/Tardis ending as a Moffit dig at all the criticism about Clara trying to be the Doctor from some of the fan base. After all she could have just walked out the door and out of the Dr's life. Overall I liked the basic idea that Clara survived, abet still having to return to the alley someday. The Doctor 'won'. As normal just because he won doesn't mean everyone got what they want, just what they needed.
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