Babylon 5

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Babylon 5

Postby mmx49 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:41 am UTC

I've recently been getting back into this show with the DVD sets. It has its flaws, but I think it was one of TV's best SF shows. Anyone else watch this?

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:08 am UTC

Every episode. :) A lot of the time it looked like crappy low-budget cheese, but if you took a step back and looked at it as a whole, it was amazing. I wanted to be G'Kar when I grew up, and one of my best friend's web ID's has been Zathrus for as long as I've known him.

Also...

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Zohar » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:43 am UTC

Babylon 5 was really excellent. At least the first four seasons. The last was signficiantly worse - the writer of the show, who did the amazing feat of writing an entire season all by himself, planned the series in advance to be five seasons. Then he was told he won't have a 5th season so he condensed it to four season, then was told there will be a 5th and he had to invent it.

The effects are bad, the acting is poor (not always, but a lot of the time), the music is a bit cheesy, but the story is just awesome. It's one of the best examples of a well-built time travel story, too.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby laranzu » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:18 am UTC

B5 was awesome when it came out in the mid 90s, and still holds up well today.

The effects are bad? Gotta disagree. Are they state of the art movie quality? No, not now, not even then. But they were much, much better than just about any science fiction series on TV had ever been. (Go watch some old Blakes 7 or Dr Who for examples.) The effects are good enough that you don't have to half close your eyes and chant "suspension of disbelief, suspension of disbelief" to stay involved, and that makes a big difference.

Most of the writing is good to great, most of the acting competent to good. (It's hard for a long running TV series to ever reach the level of a really good movie.) First half of season 1 you can see it settling down, and even JMS has said there's an episode or two that he wouldn't mind seeing the last surviving copy of fall into an ocean trench. Season 2 through to first third of season 4 is wonderful TV. (Just pretend "Grey 17 is missing" never happened.) After that Zohar is spot on.

And for those of the appropriate inclination: Ivanova ... Lyta ... Lochley. Mmmm. (Those of the opposite inclination seem to get dreamy about Marcus.)

Anyone seen the new Memories of Shadows miniseries yet?

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Zohar » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:27 am UTC

laranzu wrote:The effects are bad? Gotta disagree. Are they state of the art movie quality? No, not now, not even then. But they were much, much better than just about any science fiction series on TV had ever been.


Except for Star Trek. DS9 was out at the time and had much better graphics. Although it's boring. :-)

laranzu wrote:And for those of the appropriate inclination: Ivanova ... Lyta ... Lochley. Mmmm. (Those of the opposite inclination seem to get dreamy about Marcus.)


Lochley is S5's new commander, right? Nah, not too great. I guess the order is correct.

And, as someone of the opposite inclincation, of COURSE Marcus. There aren't any other competitors. Except maybe Sheridan, but not really.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Belial » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:05 pm UTC

And, as someone of the opposite inclincation, of COURSE Marcus. There aren't any other competitors. Except maybe Sheridan, but not really.


Franklin?

From my admittedly useless straight, male viewpoint, he seemed pretty handsome.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Girl™ » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:12 pm UTC

Yay, B5! Can there be spoiler tags? I've only seen up to the end of season 3.

Zohar wrote:The effects are bad, the acting is poor (not always, but a lot of the time), the music is a bit cheesy, but the story is just awesome. It's one of the best examples of a well-built time travel story, too.


I'll agree with you on the CG effects like whoa. The sets were generally well-done, though, and the makeup and costuming were just amazing. I found that the acting improved significantly once
Spoiler:
they punted Sinclair. Man, watching him was just painful.


Zohar wrote:And, as someone of the opposite inclincation, of COURSE Marcus. There aren't any other competitors. Except maybe Sheridan, but not really.


Yum, Marcus. He was Aragorn-hot before the LoTR movie was even thought of. Sheridan was kind of attractive, if awfully whitebread. Franklin was also cute enough, in a Tiger Woods kind of way. Too bad his acting detracted so much.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:39 pm UTC

Marcus's post-B5 story is one of THE saddest things I have ever witnessed.... :(

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Belial » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:20 pm UTC

The acting on some characters was a *lot* better than others.

Garibaldi, G'kar, Londo, and Marcus all leap to mind.

Delenn's actress may have been good as well, but her character was so subdued and her accent so thick that it's hard to say anything except that her facial expressions were great.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:31 pm UTC

And when Delenn acted girlish, it was just so perfect and funny :)

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Zohar » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:19 pm UTC

Yes, I loved Delenn. You know she's Danielle from Lost, right?
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:21 pm UTC

Not really, never watched "Lost"...

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby mmx49 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:31 pm UTC

laranzu wrote:Anyone seen the new Memories of Shadows miniseries yet?


Do you mean the straight to DVD "Lost Tales"? It's all right. It seems like JMS is setting up another arc.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Girl™ » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:08 am UTC

Zohar wrote:Yes, I loved Delenn. You know she's Danielle from Lost, right?


I've also never seen Lost, but it's awesome that she's in it. I always appreciate it when actors from sci-fi shows I like get work again after the show is canceled. Most of the time, they just fall off the face of the earth, no matter how good they are. (See: most of the cast of Firefly and Angel. :( )
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Belial » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:14 am UTC

And most of the cast of B5, for that matter.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby laranzu » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:54 pm UTC

mmx49 wrote:
laranzu wrote:Anyone seen the new Memories of Shadows miniseries yet?


Do you mean the straight to DVD "Lost Tales"? It's all right. It seems like JMS is setting up another arc.


I guess that is what I mean.

After what happened to Crusade (same fate as Firefly) and Legend of the Rangers never getting past the pilot (perhaps deservedly), perhaps JMS is just going to do the odd miniseries/movie from now on?

Any significant new characters in Lost Tales?

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby mmx49 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:04 pm UTC

There's a Centauri prince (Cartagia's son, if I remember right) that Sheridan's story focuses pretty heavily on.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Nyarlathotep » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:25 pm UTC

My friend introduced me to this show (actually he introduces me to a lot of sci-fi... it's his fault that I watch Godzilla movies and the new BSG) by sitting me down and making me start watching Season 2. I was a bit iffy at first but then I couldn't effing stop. I ended up watching through three, four, and a lot of five.

Marcus <3 <3 <3 AMAZING man. And so much sad there too :\

I also loved Londo's character.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:34 pm UTC

Ah, here it is:

    Marcus' story concludes in "Space, Time & the Incurable Romantic", a short story written by JMS and published in Amazing Stories #602. It takes place hundreds of years after the series ends. Marcus (still preserved in cryogenic suspension) is revived when the homeworld of those who built the life-energy transfer machine was found. He then proceeds to create a clone of Ivanova by enlisting one of Garibaldi's descendants to help him. Endowing it with her exact memories by stealing the scans done of her memory, he then strands them on a desolate and uncharted world with the intent of living "happily ever after" together. There are significant moral questions raised by his actions in this story, but JMS has been quoted as "wishing to give the character the happy ending he deserves" while at the same time raising the type of ethical question that Babylon 5 is famous for.

It's a happy ending for Marcus, but if you step back... it's one of the saddest things I've ever read in my entire life.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby jtniehof » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:24 pm UTC

laranzu wrote:After what happened to Crusade (same fate as Firefly) and Legend of the Rangers never getting past the pilot (perhaps deservedly), perhaps JMS is just going to do the odd miniseries/movie from now on?

Well, Joe's doing a LOT of stuff non-B5. B5-related, he just posted "The only thing I would be interested in doing regarding Babylon 5 from this point on is a full-featured, big-budget feature film."

The reason I dragged this thread out of the dustbin: I lost my "B5 Good Parts Edition" episode list that I made up...eight years ago? I've got some friends who have agreed to sit down and watch, but all 110 episodes is a bit of a commitment. So I'd like some help in putting together an episode list that follows the main arc and is roughly half the length. Unfortunately this means some really good standalones (like Intersections in Real Time and Day of the Dead) bite it. Please be kind and spoiler-tag as necessary. The Lurker's Guide is of course your friend if you don't recall the episode.

(skip The Gathering)
S1
* Midnight on the Firing Line
* Mind War
* And the Sky Full of Stars
* By Any Means Necessary
* Signs and Portents
* Eyes
* Voice in the Wilderness 1 and 2
* Babylon Squared
* Chrysalis
S2:
* Points of Departure
* Revelations
* Geometry of Shadows
* A Race Through Dark Places
* Coming of Shadows
* All alone in the night
* Hunter, Prey
* And Now for a Word
* In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum
* Divided Loyalties
* Long, Twilight Struggle
* Fall of Night
S3:
* Matters of Honor
* Convictions
* Voices of Authority
* Dust to Dust
* Messages from Earth
* Point of No Return
* Severed Dreams
* Ceremonies of Light and Dark
* Ship of Tears
* Interludes and Examinations
* War Without End 1 and 2
(In the Beginning can go here; I like how it connects with WWE)
* And the Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place
* Shadow Dancing
* Z'ha'dum
S4:
* Hour of the Wolf
* Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?
* The Summoning
* Falling Toward Apotheosis
* The Long Night
* Into the Fire
* Epiphanies
* Conflicts of Interest
* Rumors, Bargains, Lies
* Moments of Transition
* No Surrender, No Retreat
* Exercise of Vital Powers
* Face of the Enemy
* Between Darkness and Light
* Endgame
* Rising Star
* Deconstruction of Falling Stars
S5:
* No Compromises
* Paragon of Animals
* Secrets of the Soul
* In the Kingdom of the Blind
* A Tragedy of Telepaths
* Phoenix Rising
* Darkness Ascending
* All My Dreams, Torn Asunder
* Movements of Fire and Shadow
* Fall of Centauri Prime
* Wheel of Fire
* Objects in Motion
* Objects at Rest
* Sleeping in Light

I'd really like to cut down S4 and 5. I suppose I could just
Spoiler:
eliminate the whole Byron/telepath arc
, but that would seem to leave gaping holes. Or just axe S5, I guess :)

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Sockmonkey » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:43 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Ah, here it is:

    Marcus' story concludes in "Space, Time & the Incurable Romantic", a short story written by JMS and published in Amazing Stories #602. It takes place hundreds of years after the series ends. Marcus (still preserved in cryogenic suspension) is revived when the homeworld of those who built the life-energy transfer machine was found. He then proceeds to create a clone of Ivanova by enlisting one of Garibaldi's descendants to help him. Endowing it with her exact memories by stealing the scans done of her memory, he then strands them on a desolate and uncharted world with the intent of living "happily ever after" together. There are significant moral questions raised by his actions in this story, but JMS has been quoted as "wishing to give the character the happy ending he deserves" while at the same time raising the type of ethical question that Babylon 5 is famous for.

It's a happy ending for Marcus, but if you step back... it's one of the saddest things I've ever read in my entire life.


Agreed. In one aspect It's like he's living a lie, only worse because its a half-truth and that's sadder than just living a lie.
In another aspect it's like getting to fair after it's closed, and riding the rides by yourself like it's the same.

Frankly, making a clone like that pushes him right past hopless romantic and drops him in in stalkertown at the corner of creepy and pathetic.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Belial » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:13 am UTC

Actually, it just makes him Tim Hunter.

Eww.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Dr Strangelove » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:08 am UTC

Marcus? Dude, I'm straight and I've got the hots for Marcus. Dude is awesome.

I've recently bought seasons 1 and 2 on DVD, and they are gosh-darn GREAT. Seriously. Really good TV. Now saving up for season 3.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby GhostWolfe » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:08 am UTC

I'm going to put my vote in for Lennier. He was just so innocent and sweet. <3

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Clumpy » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:20 pm UTC

My roommate's sister has had the DVD packs for years, and he drags us into the den once or twice a week to cram down three episodes. It's not a show that you could watch in reruns - there's too much to lose for not watching it sequentially. G'Kar, Londo and Vir's character arcs are just awesome, as well as the way Sheridan fills his position sometime in the third season. We're nearing the end and I'm going to miss it.

Season 1, for the most part, is just bleh. Like Voyager reruns. Best to watch the plot-focused episode and scan the rest of the synopsis on The Lurker's Guide (B5 Episode Guide).

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby s00z » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:48 pm UTC

GhostWolfe wrote:I'm going to put my vote in for Lennier. He was just so innocent and sweet. <3

/angell


now there is a story i would like to hear ... where did he go and what happened to him? i can't say he was one of my favourite characters ... but ... i have always been curious as to what became of him. he was so loyal and so honourable ... he must have suffered greatly after he betrayed Delenn.

as for my personal favorite characters ... minor would have to be Zathurus and major would be G'Kar (though i have to admit without Londo, his character would not have been so appealing) some of G'Kar's dialogue is so good. to prove my point.....

G'Kar:"I can only wait so long."
Ivanava: "I thought your patience was infinite."
G'Kar: "Since space and time are curved, the infinite sooner or later bends back upon itself and ends up where it begun. And so have I."
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby steewi » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:36 am UTC

I have to put my hand up as a Sinclair fan. I kind of liked his martyr complex, and I don't like Sheridan's guns blazing Western leftovers. Plus
Spoiler:
HE'S VALEN!!! How couldn't you like that?!


And everyone likes G'Kar. His journey is just fantastic, and one of my favourite bits of S5 is
Spoiler:
when he reads the IA Statement of Principles.
It almost tears me up every time.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby chilibaka » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:12 pm UTC

Babylon 5 was one of my favourite shows when it was running on TV, I have all the episodes recorded on VHS cassettes.

Bought the first two seasons on DVD, watched them almost as a marathon. The animosity between G'Kar and Londo is still as hilarious as I remembered it. Now I'm waiting for 3rd season to arrive on DVD here.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Clumpy » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:34 pm UTC

I kind of thought that Londo could have handled the situation with

Spoiler:
G'kar's eye better. I mean, obviously he didn't know what Cartagia was going to suggest, but he should have suggested something like shutting G'Kar into a corner, or putting something dark over his face, but phrase it as sinisterly as possible so that Cartagia would be likely to go with it.

And is it just my imagination, or was showing all of the heads on the table a little edge for 90s TV? I seem to recall being surprised when a Buffy episode featured a decapitation, and that they had a little chat with Standards and Practices after that. . .

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:24 pm UTC

Actually I thought Londo had left the room before Cartagia ordered G'Kar's eye to be removed. He didn't know about it until he next went back to his dungeon.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Clumpy » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:11 am UTC

Yeah, but he told Cartagia that whatever he came up with to rectify his annoyance with G'Kar would be fine. He probably coulda thought Cartagia's mental state through a bit better before making a statement like that. Ah, well, G got one of his little epiphanies out of it, so no real harm done. I'm being flippant, but what an awesome character.

Did anybody else get a bit annoyed at the gratuitous Messianic references with G'Kar? I noticed them at first and thought that it was clever, but then they just piled it on deeper and deeper.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:23 pm UTC

What could Londo have said other than "do whatever you think is appropriate". If he had said ANYTHING else, he might have been executed on the spot. Cartagia with his God-complex would only allow people to suck up to him. Anyone who did anything else (like make a suggestion that he doesn't happen to agree with) would be killed and have their head placed on Cartagia's desk.
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby steewi » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:08 am UTC

Clumpy wrote:Did anybody else get a bit annoyed at the gratuitous Messianic references with G'Kar? I noticed them at first and thought that it was clever, but then they just piled it on deeper and deeper.


Nope. I thought that was great. G'Kar didn't want any of that to happen. It was just because he had become a genuinely wise person, and his people saw that. When he refused responsibility, they took it as the ultimate in humility, showing that he must be the new G'Quan or something. It's a very 'human' reaction. It's not like Straczynski was trying to push a religious line or anything. He's agnostic at the least.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Clumpy » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:44 am UTC

SlyReaper wrote:What could Londo have said other than "do whatever you think is appropriate". If he had said ANYTHING else, he might have been executed on the spot. Cartagia with his God-complex would only allow people to suck up to him. Anyone who did anything else (like make a suggestion that he doesn't happen to agree with) would be killed and have their head placed on Cartagia's desk.


Actually, Londo stands up to Cartagia all the time. I get the feeling that Cartagia was amused by this, and maybe even respected Londo for it. Cartagia's easily manipulatable in some ways, and it seems likely that Londo could have said something which seemed to respect Cartagia and condemn and patronize G'Kar enough to meet his approval.

@steewi:

I understand that bit, and I feel that this characterization is entirely appropriate to G'Kar. I just thought that the symbolism was a little too gratuitous.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby lorenith » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:40 am UTC

JMS is athesit if I recall correctly, he has some interesting insights into society and his story too in the "JMS speaks" bits over on the lurkers guide. (In the case of Lenier all I've heard of him after his self impossed excile is that it's a 'very sad story').

I'm going to have to standup for Sinclair too, yeah he was a wooden actor, that was the point of his character though to be pretty stern and dry, I wouldn't have it any other way.

I really liked most of the characters, but Vir really stood out to me, and Ivanava, it's too bad her actress thought she could hardball for a raise and got dropped instead. (Oh yeah, and Kosh, Kosh is awesome).

The graphics and set weren't really that bad at all when one considers that B5 was produced on a worse than shoestring budget. I think they used less money in their 5 year run, than a one or two seasons of anything startrek got.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Clumpy » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:43 pm UTC

Ivanava, it's too bad her actress thought she could hardball for a raise and got dropped instead.


Actually, I think Claudia Christian's departure had more to do with the fact that the network cut off a season then added it back at the last minute, really screwing up her schedule (not to mention the havoc it played with the show as a whole).

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby lorenith » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:51 pm UTC

Ok I was wrong, that last bit I was going off something my boyfriend told me, but apparently she just wanted 4 days off the show. Looking at the letters and other talk from JMS and Claudia, it looks like it was a giant mess of confusion that did involve contractual weirdness. It still seems like she didn't try very hard to get negotiations rolling though. It's a shame. However I'm pretty sure she could have gotten it, the guys that played Vir and Lennier both got times out of the show to pursue other things.

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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Chrismclegless » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:38 pm UTC

Revived because I've just finished re-watching the series, and this thread is insultingly short.

I liked the idea of Sinclair. It sat well with me that he was just this ordinary guy who happened to be taken aboard the Grey Council's ship. It could have happened to anyone, and whoever they took would have turned out to be Valen. I just loved that.

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Spoiler:
they punted Sinclair. Man, watching him was just painful.



Nobody knows what happened with the whole Sinclair issue. Actually, I tell a lie, three people know. They are: JMS, Michael O'Hare, and the WB guy who was in the meeting. Nobody will ever know quite why it happened - they're taking it to the grave.
Londo: Maybe it was something I said?
G'Kar: Maybe it is everything you say.

How tasty is YOUR brain?

GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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steewi
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby steewi » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:13 am UTC

Chrismclegless wrote:Revived because I've just finished re-watching the series, and this thread is insultingly short.

I liked the idea of Sinclair. It sat well with me that he was just this ordinary guy who happened to be taken aboard the Grey Council's ship. It could have happened to anyone, and whoever they took would have turned out to be Valen. I just loved that.

Girl™ wrote:
Spoiler:
they punted Sinclair. Man, watching him was just painful.



Nobody knows what happened with the whole Sinclair issue. Actually, I tell a lie, three people know. They are: JMS, Michael O'Hare, and the WB guy who was in the meeting. Nobody will ever know quite why it happened - they're taking it to the grave.


I've heard multiple rumours, some of which, if true, would be damning. However, I'm not going to publicly voice them because of their extreme rumour status.

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Chrismclegless
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Location: Sigma 957
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Re: Babylon 5

Postby Chrismclegless » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:04 pm UTC

As I say, they're only rumours. I'm refusing to listen to them because I know they have no evidence.
Londo: Maybe it was something I said?
G'Kar: Maybe it is everything you say.

How tasty is YOUR brain?

GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.


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