Cowboy Bebop

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Cowboy Bebop

Postby PhantomReality » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:21 pm UTC

I haven't seen a thread on this yet...kind of amazing seeing as how it's the best Anime EVER. I have a lot of questions about it though, despite having watched the series 3 times through recently.

Specifically I'm wondering about the whole two different colored eyes thing, along with the whole strange montage of green liquid and the experiments that were being done on him. I dunno it's never really explained I don't think. Does anybody know what that's all about?
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby une see » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:38 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Spike lost his eye when he was trying to get out of the Red Dragons. I think they actually show the gunfight where he lost his eye at the very beginning of the first episode, and you see the blood coming from the eye he lost.

The liquid and the "experiments" being done on him were, I presume, part of his subsequent operation to put a fake eye in. I don't remember which eye "sees the present" and which "sees the past," but you can probably tell if you watch Ballad of Fallen Dreams Angels again.


But yeah. I love Bebop. It's probably my favorite anime of all time. My favorite part of Bebop is probably the music, but the characters and plotline are, of course, superb as well. Faye's my favorite (my favorites are usually female characters who can't seem to get a break in life). <3

@PhantomReality: Your avatar is from Animatrix, right? If I remember correctly, Shinichiro Watanabe directed two of the stories, and the one your avatar is from is..."A Kid's Story?"
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:48 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Spike and Jet eating the eggs after Faye and Ed have left was one of the saddest things i've ever seen in a show... and that song by the seatbelts, Call Me... Heartbreaking. Epic. Great.


Its all about the journey, and when they arrive, its always very very sad.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Jessica » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:26 pm UTC

I need to finish watching this. I got about half way through before I lost access to it the first time I tried watching it, then never got a chance since then.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:26 am UTC

The false one sees the past, if I recall correctly.

Such a good series; all the music used to be up for download at jazzmess.org, but it hasn't been for years now. Still a good site for episode synopsis, music catalog, and to find which song was played where. Some of my favorites are Waltz for Venus, Pierrot le Fou, The Real Folk Blues (1&2)... actually as I think about it I realize that I have too many favorites. The entire series is golden with a few minor exceptions, episodes that are just good, not great.

My biggest disappointment regarding the movie was that although there were butterflies involved in an important part of the plot, they didn't use the song "Butterfly" in it, even though it's on the official soundtrack to the movie! It's got one of the most beautiful, pure-sex tremolo Rhodes sounds I've ever heard.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby une see » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:21 am UTC

Here are two good sites to go to if you just can't get enough of Bebop:

http://www.big-big-truck.com/bebop/ao/
Some quality Bebop fanfic (purely genfic, if I remember correctly)

http://www.absolutetrouble.com/bebopmusings/
A collection of Bebop "essays" providing in-depth analysis on the show, the characters, and the plot.

@Bebop movie: Vincent was badass. Such a shame about his insanity, though...
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Swordfish » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:04 am UTC

I love this show (I'll direct you to my username and avatar for further evidence).

There is one thing about it that is bugging me. Some of Spike's flashbacks are tinted gold, and others are tinted blue. I figured this out a while ago, but I forgot what it was, now I'm pissed at myself for forgetting. Anyone have any ideas?
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby une see » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:20 am UTC

Swordfish wrote:I love this show (I'll direct you to my username and avatar for further evidence).

There is one thing about it that is bugging me. Some of Spike's flashbacks are tinted gold, and others are tinted blue. I figured this out a while ago, but I forgot what it was, now I'm pissed at myself for forgetting. Anyone have any ideas?


Gold for good times with Julia? Blue for...good times with Vicious? I don't really know. I didn't notice any tinge when I was watching.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Aleril » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:29 pm UTC

I have actually only seen the movie, which I loved immensely. Great story, pacing, action, everything.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Citizen K » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:49 pm UTC

Yeah, Bebop is definitely one of the great anime series. The greatest? I don't know, but I guess it is the only one I own in its entirety. And I agree that the soundtrack and quality voiceover is what really pushes it over the edge into greatness. Actually, now that I think about it, I believe that's the case with most series/films I really like.

And of course shortly after I finished getting it all was when they started re-releasing the episodes in a 5.1 sound mix. Figures. :(
...and now I see the whole remixed series is up on Amazon for like $40. Tempting, but I have trouble reinvesting in a thing I already have.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:59 pm UTC

I don't really want to start a separate thread for it, beacuse I feel the two stories are so bloody similar, but how do people feel about Samurai Champloo?

SC was, to me, the story that CB tried to be. It had an end, a lesson learned, and better episodic continuity. Granted, its like comparing nacho's to potato skins in terms of awesomeness, so its pretty moot.
SC had more strikingly beautiful art, but also had more painfully boring drawn out anime moments (woman gasps and the camera pans for 5 minutes)... CB had more intrigue and mystery, but left more questions unanswered.
We watch these shows mostly for the characters (Spike trying to hitch a ride on the ancient space shuttle, while stranded in the desert, or the guy who ascertains whats wrong with the swordfish by listening to the wrench clink on its side, are two of the single most poignant things i've ever seen in tv series), so I want a bit more character depth then "Mysterious!" Gene and Mugen had their pasts layed bare and grew as people for it. Spike and Jet and Faye and Ed were still mostly mysteries at the series conclusion.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby pieaholicx » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:02 pm UTC

Citizen K wrote:...and now I see the whole remixed series is up on Amazon for like $40. Tempting, but I have trouble reinvesting in a thing I already have.

O.O
*grabs off Amazon*

I haven't seen all of Bebop, mostly just an odd episode here and there, but for $40 I'll get the whole series. Managed to get all of .hack//SIGN for the same price.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:02 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I don't really want to start a separate thread for it, beacuse I feel the two stories are so bloody similar, but how do people feel about Samurai Champloo?

SC was, to me, the story that CB tried to be. It had an end, a lesson learned, and better episodic continuity.

You have to die now. SC's plot, dub and characterization were abysmal shit that made me want to kill myself more than once, with a few exceptions (see: Jean and the geisha episode). It was eye candy with decent humor and cardboard characters that gave the illusion of depth that today's Adult Swim viewers can't get enough of. It was entertaining but it can't touch Bebop.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby SilentSigil » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:09 pm UTC

This series and Trigun are both amazingly good... Cowboy Bebop definitely rocked the house with its musical score, though...

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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:34 pm UTC

@Bakemaster: Care to support SC's 'cardboard' characterization over CB's?
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:55 pm UTC

Sure. Faye. Fuu. I'm done.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:59 pm UTC

The comparison between a haughty woman in her mid-20's and a 16 year old girl proves your point? Comon sir, you can do better then that.

Besides, I found them to be a nice juxtaposition for the groups. Faye, who was flaky and shifty and untrustworthy, was utterly reliable in a fight. Fuu, who was the opposite of subtle yet rather insightful, was completely UNRELIABLE in a kerfuffle.

Also, they aren't really equivalents, you meet Faye's doppleganger at one point in the series (she seduces and poisons Mugen, the midnight poison bit, episode 2-3 I think?)
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby PatrickRsGhost » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:02 pm UTC

The only episodes I remember liking were Mushroom Samba, Boogie Woogie Feng Shui, Speak Like A Child, and My Funny Valentine.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:13 pm UTC

Fuu: "Ahh I got in trouble! Wah wah help me find the sunflower samurai! Ahh I got in trouble again! Gee, this episode taught me some really special things about humanity that sound deep but aren't particularly insightful or interesting. Rawr! I'm mad at you stupid guys 'cause you're always fighting! ... Ahh! I got in trouble agaaain!"

Mugen is a very generic $badass_ronin. The only really interesting thing about him is his fighting style. There are a million characters like him. Jean is fairly interesting, but also has a lot of stereotypical, predictable behavior.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby une see » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:35 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:Fuu: "Ahh I got in trouble! Wah wah help me find the sunflower samurai! Ahh I got in trouble again! Gee, this episode taught me some really special things about humanity that sound deep but aren't particularly insightful or interesting. Rawr! I'm mad at you stupid guys 'cause you're always fighting! ... Ahh! I got in trouble agaaain!"

Mugen is a very generic $badass_ronin. The only really interesting thing about him is his fighting style. There are a million characters like him. Jean is fairly interesting, but also has a lot of stereotypical, predictable behavior.


Do you mean Jin? I was wondering who you were talking about when you referred to the geisha episode...

I thought SC had a fair amount of good stand-alone episodes, but it doesn't stand up to CB in terms of an overarching plot, characterization, or depth/meaning, in my opinion. I still loved it though.

Fuu is a little annoying, I admit. Jin is my favorite SC character because I love his backstory.

But shouldn't we be talking about Bebop in the Bebop thread?
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:49 pm UTC

Wikipedia informs me that yes, I meant Jin. I enjoyed most of the series too, it just doesn't compare to Bebop except stylistically.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby SomeoneElse » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:06 am UTC

Cowboy Bebop is awesome, and the soundtrack is beyond awesome. WHAT PLANET. IS THIS.

Samurai Champloo.. I really liked it when I saw it a few years ago, but I started watching it again recently and realised that its actually pretty stale. Perhaps it gets better as it goes on - i seem to remember the ending was really good.

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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Swordfish » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:05 am UTC

une see wrote:Gold for good times with Julia? Blue for...good times with Vicious? I don't really know. I didn't notice any tinge when I was watching.


Nope. There's a gold flashback of Vicious in bed with Julia (which I doubt that Spike would remember as being good), and a gold flashback of Spike and Vicious back to back in a gunfight on a street, which doesn't involve Julia.
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Re: al Folk Blues (The)

Postby Nimz » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:03 am UTC

You know, this gold flashback / blue flashback thing is going to bug the heck out of me because I never noticed that. AAARRRRRGGGH!

SC - saw it once. That was enough. CB - I've seen every session and the movie several times. I watched the movie both subbed and dubbed, and then again when I realised I could play the sub while the audio was dubbed, and then with the French sub and dub just for good measure :mrgreen:, and again on [AS] to see what they would edit out. And I still can't get enough. And clearly there are still things that I need to rewatch the series in order to catch those details.

Ah, yes. Soundtrack. "3 point 14159, 2653589, 7932384, 626433, 832795 oh, 2884197, 1693993, 751582." Or if you don't like that, "Would you please have some coffee with me?" "N-n-no!" For some reason that song amuses me to no end. Wo Qui Non Coin is touching in how beautiful and how sad it is. Come back home, puppy! I'll walk you every day! The music fits the series perfectly, and is a big reason I like CB so much more than SC. Jazz and Blues is much more my kind of music than Hip Hop and Rap.

I don't see how the argument that Bebop lacks character development can hold any water. I should probably spoiler this.
Spoiler:
Spike goes from laid back bounty hunter that happens to be very good at martial arts to a survivor with a past that's gotta catch up to him at some point. Plus, he's a Martian! Jet goes from Spike's partner on the Bebop to an ex-cop that left because he was a straight shooter in a pool of corruption. Faye goes from a gambling addict with a large debt and apparently an even larger imagination to someone who can't remember any of her life before being thawed out of cryostasis to eventually finding out who she was. Ed goes from a mysterious hacker to an orphan girl that adopts the Bebop crew and eventually blazes a path all her own through the universe (well, not quite all her own - she has Ein with her). Even the characters that don't get much face time get developed. Vicious, Julia, the hosts of Big Shot. Need I say more?

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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Zohar » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:47 am UTC

Bakemaster wrote:Wikipedia informs me that yes, I meant Jin. I enjoyed most of the series too, it just doesn't compare to Bebop except stylistically.


Well, obviously the animation in SC is better (obvious to me, anyway). I really like the music in both series. I think SC is much more balanced, character-wise, than CB. That's one of the things I like more about it than Bebop.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby SilentSigil » Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:11 pm UTC

I don't think the two can be compared in the way you guys are trying... CB was about the people... their impulses and moods played the story out, and the focus being on them, they showed more development over time... Their histories were so intertwined in the story because they were close... Spike's dreaming, Faye's fiery attitude/mask for her unkown void... Depth in people...

SC was a story to tell a story... the backdrop of anachronism was never really meshed completely... The story was about a journey, just a journey, three people meet and fate decides... There were interesting people, sure, but the end of the journey was always in sight, the goal clearly defined... It was more a romp in semifeudal times`and an attempt at showing some weird comparison between the samurai spirit and a modern world... The whys and not the hows...

I felt more for Cowboy Bebop, myself, due to the wrenches it gave me... Living life like it is a dream... for me, SC was just a 'hey, that is kinda cool...' feel.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:54 am UTC

I brought them up because they're effectively the same show with the dice tossed a bit differently.

That I saw CB before SC made SC feel like an improvement and continuation. If I had seen it the other way around, I'd probably feel the CB was SC *IN SPACE* which always makes something = win in my mind. But then, so does adding fuedal japan.

If you hated one of these shows, you probably missing the point of the one you enjoyed :shock:
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby PhantomReality » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:12 am UTC

une see wrote:@PhantomReality: Your avatar is from Animatrix, right? If I remember correctly, Shinichiro Watanabe directed two of the stories, and the one your avatar is from is..."A Kid's Story?"



Yes, yes and yes. I loved the Animatrix and I worshipped everything about the matrix for a good two years of my life. Grew up slightly after that but I still love it. Never will get back those years on Matrix-Theories.com or whatever that forum was that ate gargantuan amounts of my time.

Thx for the clarification about the eye thing though...Though the confusing part is that Julia tended too his wounds after that battle where he lost his eye correct? I guess some time elapsed between then and the acquisition of the fake eye.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Kendo_Bunny » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:46 am UTC

I think- though I may be wrong, that flashbacks are gold during Spike's time in the syndicate, and switch over to blue after he leaves. The sole exception to this seems to be the "last gunfight" which is shown in blue, while Spike stumbling to Julia is shown in gold.

Then again, the timeline is pretty fluid, so we don't know if that gunfight was him planning on leaving the syndicate and running off with Julia. Personally, and I may be wrong, but I think the affair between them really started after she nursed him back to health. He definitely has an eye when he waits for her at the graveyard, so his eye was replaced sometime between his collapse on her doorstep and their planned escape. My theory is that he stumbled to her house knowing that she was Vicious's girlfriend (even though he had a growing crush on her) and thinking it would be a safe place. I think their affair preceded from that point.

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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby une see » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:15 pm UTC

Kendo_Bunny wrote:I think- though I may be wrong, that flashbacks are gold during Spike's time in the syndicate, and switch over to blue after he leaves. The sole exception to this seems to be the "last gunfight" which is shown in blue, while Spike stumbling to Julia is shown in gold.

Then again, the timeline is pretty fluid, so we don't know if that gunfight was him planning on leaving the syndicate and running off with Julia. Personally, and I may be wrong, but I think the affair between them really started after she nursed him back to health. He definitely has an eye when he waits for her at the graveyard, so his eye was replaced sometime between his collapse on her doorstep and their planned escape. My theory is that he stumbled to her house knowing that she was Vicious's girlfriend (even though he had a growing crush on her) and thinking it would be a safe place. I think their affair preceded from that point.


I agree with you about when Spike actually began an affair with Julia. It seemed like the moment he woke up and heard Julia humming was when he really fell for her. (Compare that lovely scene to the one with Spike waking up to Faye humming at the end of Ballad of Fallen Dreams Angels...incredibly different because by that time, Spike had already fallen in love with Julia. It was almost like a defense mechanism on his part; he didn't want to like Faye, or be reminded that she could be anything like his beloved Julia, so he told her she was singing off-key to piss her off, to put more distance between them.)

Oh, man. I think I might have to watch the whole series over again, now that I'm reminded of my love for Bebop. Well, this does not bode well...
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Nimz » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:00 pm UTC

une see wrote:...Ballad of Fallen Dreams...

I'm sorry. I can't just leave this alone for a second time. I'm pretty sure that Session 5 is titled Ballad of Fallen Angels. Wikipedia and IMDb seem to support that title, too. On a related note, one of my favourite songs in the series is in that session - Green Bird.
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby une see » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:40 am UTC

You're right. I was mixing together Ballad of Fallen Angels and Boulevard of Broken Dreams. No idea how that happened.

Yeah, love Green Bird. :)
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby PatrickRsGhost » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:08 pm UTC

One thing I liked (and still like although I haven't seen it in a while) about Cowboy Bebop is all the references to music, mainly classic rock.

I was reminded of this in Nimz's post. "You're Gonna Carry That Weight" is in reference to the Beatles' song "Carry That Weight."

The Beatles' "Carry That Weight" wrote:Boy, you're going to carry that weight
Carry that weight a long time
Boy, you're going to carry that weight
Carry that weight a long time


There was a session titled "Bohemian Rhapsody." In the session/episode "Mushroom Samba" Spike begins walking up a set of stairs on the ship, and when he hallucinates from the bad mushroom, he sees a frog on the stairs that says "You do know this is the Stairway to Heaven, don't you?" to which Spike mumbles something about the frog being a smart-alec.

At the end of some episodes the caption "See you space cowboy" could be a reference to the Steve Miller Band's song "Space Cowboy" or "The Joker."

The episode "My Funny Valentine" is also the name of a song.

"Stray Dog Strut" is a take on "Stray Cat Strut" by The Stray Cats.

That's just barely scratching the surface.
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Endless Mike
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:25 pm UTC

Citizen K wrote:...and now I see the whole remixed series is up on Amazon for like $40. Tempting, but I have trouble reinvesting in a thing I already have.

Actually, thanks for this, since all I ever got was the first disc of the original releases. And I think it cost more than half what this does.

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cypherspace
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby cypherspace » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:49 pm UTC

Bebop's tied for my favourite anime with FLCL. Curious that they happen to have the two best soundtracks to any anime - in fact almost any TV series - I've ever seen. But they also both do breathlessly cool, immensely funny and poignantly emotional scenes so well. I love the way Bebop mixes up its episodes especially, some sombre and dark the whole way through, others dedicated to humour. But all of it is so brilliantly done. I made an AMV of it years ago to go with Basket Case by Green Day, which would have been brilliant if I didn't have subtitles in the clips... ah well.
"It was like five in the morning and he said he'd show me his hamster"

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Kendo_Bunny
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Kendo_Bunny » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

What Spike says to the frog is "Shut up. Stupid (dub)/ obnoxious (sub) frog."

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PhantomReality
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby PhantomReality » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:00 pm UTC

I think you have the dub/sub backwards there, I think he says "obnoxious" in the dub. I remember very clearly cause I watched mushroom samba while shrooming and that part made me laugh to no end.
DROP ACID NOT BOMBS.

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Bakemaster
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Bakemaster » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:08 pm UTC

When I was listening to the mushroom samba song on the soundtrack, before I noticed its name and connected it to the episode, I was sure she was singing "washroom haunting".
Zohar wrote:Well, obviously the animation in SC is better (obvious to me, anyway).

The technical quality of the animation, yeah. I still prefer the visuals in CB overall, even if the fight scenes aren't quite as smooth as those from SC.
Zohar wrote:I think SC is much more balanced, character-wise, than CB. That's one of the things I like more about it than Bebop.

The cast of characters may be balanced, but the individual characters are not. That's what happens when you build your cast from a formula. Rude, nontraditional, uneducated mercenary meets polite, traditional, educated ronin? Throw in a cute girl and you've got your sitcom cast. Bebop's characters may all be mobsters and hackers and bounty hunters, but they're a lot less cookie-cutter individually.
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serope
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby serope » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:25 pm UTC

I too loved this show for its interest in music.

While the classic rock references were good (one that has not been mentioned: Jet was called the 'black dog' in an episode, the title of a Led Zeppelin song), my favourite episodes were the music themed ones. For example, 'Heavy metal queen', which features a hard rock soundtrack but also has the feel of a heavy metal song, with space truckers, hangovers, etc. Going through this show the first time got me interested in the different styles of music mentioned.

Hugh Manatee
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Re: Cowboy Bebop

Postby Hugh Manatee » Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:23 pm UTC

I forget because it's been awhile since I watched the whole thing through, and I don't have all the episodes, but was Faye's name actually valentine or was that something the doctor made up...

And how did the earth get all messed up(the moon exploded IIRC but I forget the circumstance).... Wish I had a timeline of all the 'history' and peripheral events.


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