Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

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Intrigued
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Intrigued » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:01 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I was a bit annoyed at the end of this episode. I really dislike random coincidences, and this one appears really out of nowhere. Did this happen in the books this way as well? No future spoilers please :)


I'm not sure if we're still spoilering the shows that have happened, so I'm going to be on the safe side and do so, I've got current show and up to this point in the show book spoilers below, but no future spoilers. Also I'm not 100% sure which was the last scene, but I think I remember...
Spoiler:
Are you talking about jojen and meera showing up? If so, no this is not how it happened in the books, it was handled much more naturally. They would've already been with Bran/Rickon for a while at this point. They showed up earlier when Bran was the stark that remained in winterfell, when he was basically reigning over it as their prince. I believe they showed up when all the northmen that supported Robb were sending people to pledge their allegiance to winterfell. They hung around with Bran/Rickon for a while before the whole theon mess happened, and the "green dream"/warg stuff happened slower over the course of several scenes. Given their absence up to this point, I was pretty disappointed thinking they were being dropped for the show.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Yakk » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:15 pm UTC

Content form Book, but not from TV show:
Spoiler:
Few of the pointless scenes are widows, based on what is coming up.

Jon's scenes with the wildlings set up his later actions towards them in a nice way. Even if he's dissembling about "I want to fight for the side that fights for the living", the point is that the Wildlings aren't marching south to invade, they are marching south to flee the doom of light.

Similarly, Sam's incompetence needs to be beaten into us, so Sam the Slayer has the right impact. And the lord crow's comment about "I order you not to die" highlights that keeping Sam alive is important: his #1 problem is getting back to the wall to warn the seven kingdoms. #2 probably involves getting himself, and a handful of commanders back, to organize the defences. #3 would be getting Sam back, because Sam *read the books*, and what is in those books may be the only hope for the Wall. The rank and file crows are far, far less important than Sam, as incompetent as he is.

And the Tyrion/Sansa stuff is also some nice set up for later.

Maybe there was too much setup, not enough payoff, but it is episode 2 of a season.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:23 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I was a bit annoyed at the end of this episode. I really dislike random coincidences, and this one appears really out of nowhere. Did this happen in the books this way as well? No future spoilers please :)


It didn't not exactly happen this way in the book. I'll put what happened in spoilers for propriety's sake, though if you've seen this episode, it won't spoil anything either way, but some people don't like seeing any book content at all.

Spoiler:
In the book, they run into the Brotherhood on the Kingsroad, but one of the men who is with them is a former Stark armsmen who recognizes Arya (or she recognizes him, I don't remember which). They take her back to their camp, and the Hound is captured at a later point and brought in.


Zohar wrote:Sansa's scene was great, and I'm liking what's-her-name, the girl from Tyrell. She's pretty mischievous. Arya stays my favorite character. I think Jon is one of my least favorites. But he's so dreamy!


Margaery is the Tyrell girl. Olenna is the grandmother. I think Jon is better in the books--the actor in the show is kind of dull and humorless. I also kind of feel that they have been cutting a lot of his better moments. For example, I think the way he convinces Mance Ryder that he wants to join the wildlings is much more compelling.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:50 pm UTC

I hadn't remembered which was the last scene until LaserGuy's post, but I think that in general what others have said about different scenes holds true: a lot of stuff that might seem a bit too much of a coincidence happens a bit more naturally in the books, oftentimes because it involved additional characters (or the same characters but earlier in the story) who weren't in the show for practical reasons.

That being said, there are occasional coincidences that might stretch your credulity, which I tend to handwave away with the reminder that this is a world with magic and prophecy and presumably some manner of fate or destiny bringing people together in ways we don't see in reality.

For example (show spoilers from the latest episode):
Spoiler:
Bran and the Reeds are pretty explicitly brought together by something supernatural, and iirc that was essentially true in the book as well. So I don't find it hard to accept that other pairs, such as Arya and the Hound, also had a bit of otherworldly help pushing them together.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Adacore » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:15 am UTC

Zohar wrote:I was a bit annoyed at the end of this episode. I really dislike random coincidences, and this one appears really out of nowhere. Did this happen in the books this way as well? No future spoilers please :)

Book spoilers, and spoilers for the show so far, but nothing future-spoiling:
Spoiler:
I'm not sure which bit you mean by 'the end of this episode'. The very end of the episode, unless I'm completely misremembering, was a cliffhanger where Bolton's men encountered Jaime and Brienne. I don't remember the book perfectly, but I know this encounter happens, although not with Bolton's men. In the book the fight between Jaime and Brienne isn't on a bridge, it's just in a wood or something, and the men who encounter them are able to find and sneak up on them because swordfights are loud. But no, in terms of coincidence, there's no justification for why they get found other than 'there are lots of different groups of soldiers patroling the land looking for Jaime, and they weren't being stealthy'.

Now, in the book, this is slightly different because there's a group of mercenaries - the Brave Companions - who have been written out of the show, and they're the ones who encounter Brienne and Jaime. There's a bit more tension there, because you don't actually know who the Brave Companions are working for, since they're mercenaries. They start off aligned to Tywin, and hold Harrenhall while Arya is there, but betray the Lannisters because they do a deal with Bolton - Arya uses Jaqen H'ghar's final assassination to try to overthrow the Lannisters in Harrenhall by freeing some captive Stark men, but it turns out that the Lannisters were simultaneously being betrayed by the Brave Companions and were going to lose Harrenhall anyway.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Intrigued » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:24 pm UTC

Ah, was that the last scene? My mistake. Yeah, some definite differences there then. The whole Harrenhall situation was quite a bit different in the books.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby ArgonV » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:26 pm UTC

Slightly different, but basically the same thing happens in the book, yes

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Zohar » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:01 pm UTC

I meant the scene with Arya, actually. The rest didn't bother me too much. And thanks for the explanations.

I'm having trouble remembering who everyone is, especially when they're only referred to by name. It helps I'm watching this with a friend who's read the books, but he doesn't remember everything (for example what bothered me about Arya's story).
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:32 pm UTC

You know, truthfully, the random encounters never bothered me, because more than anything, I felt like the kingdom was in a perpetual state of utter chaos and violence, and was often just barely held in check by the random acts of a few people doing insignificant shit that compounded. Butterfly effect and all that. It's a bit handwavy, but I think it underlines how while everyone is sort of powerless to this ever grinding political/social machine that is the various forces of the lands, the machine is composed of thousands of people all interacting and affecting the landscape.

Not really a spoiler, but it was a cool sideline by someone;
Spoiler:
I forget who, but someone, maybe Ned Stark? had a rather protracted internal monologue in the books wherein they were remembering the actions of one Knight at a match, wherein the Knight gave some lady other than the lady of status he was supposed to be woo'ing a flower, and this set off this chain of slights and damaged honors that resulted in bad blood between some family and a battle was lost because some dudes bannermen didn't rise to protect so and so, and all for a harmless gesture, a flower given to a the wrong girl
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Adacore » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:40 am UTC

Zohar wrote:I meant the scene with Arya, actually. The rest didn't bother me too much. And thanks for the explanations.

Minor book-spoilers:
Spoiler:
In the book it's slightly more natural - Arya's first chapter has her encountering the Brotherhood with the archer firing at the wall bit; chapter two she recognises one of the Brotherhood who used to work at Winterfell in the inn, and tells him who she is. The encounter with the Hound comes later, in her third chapter. It's a minor change, but it feels less like a wild coincidence in the book, I suppose.


Book and potentially future-show spoilers:
Spoiler:
I just realised that Arya hasn't had any wolf-dreams yet. Her early Storm of Swords chapters mostly end with bits of Nymeria, iirc.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby johnie104 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:38 am UTC

I too think it is too bad that they changed the way Jon convinces Mance Rayder. In the book it gave a way more natural and personal way why Jon specifically betrayed the Watch. I mean if it was so easy to convince the wildling king that you can be trusted, it would have been done a lot more often.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Dark567 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:40 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Not really a spoiler, but it was a cool sideline by someone;
Spoiler:
I forget who, but someone, maybe Ned Stark? had a rather protracted internal monologue in the books wherein they were remembering the actions of one Knight at a match, wherein the Knight gave some lady other than the lady of status he was supposed to be woo'ing a flower, and this set off this chain of slights and damaged honors that resulted in bad blood between some family and a battle was lost because some dudes bannermen didn't rise to protect so and so, and all for a harmless gesture, a flower given to a the wrong girl

I think this is what your referring too(Spoiler for the first book):
Spoiler:
That was Rheager(the crown-prince) giving a flower to Lyanna Stark instead of his wife. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Baratheon, so this made him jealous. When Rheager later kidnapped Lyanna this caused the Starks and Baratheons to revolt and overthrow the mad king.


Speculation on that. Spoilers for all the books:
Spoiler:
"Kidnapped" likely meaning: Lyanna running away with Rheager to avoid Roberts wrath when she tells him she wants to marry Rheager over him. This ends up being vital as its pretty much certain that Lyanna and Rheager are Jon Snow's parents.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Diadem » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:25 pm UTC

johnie104 wrote:I too think it is too bad that they changed the way Jon convinces Mance Rayder. In the book it gave a way more natural and personal way why Jon specifically betrayed the Watch. I mean if it was so easy to convince the wildling king that you can be trusted, it would have been done a lot more often.

Yeah I didn't quite understand this change either. The book is much more realistic. Especially because the reason given in the series is a bit weird. "I want to fight for the side that fights for the living". The wildlings hate the watch, and Mance probably more than most, but even they know the watch is not that corrupt.

What's more, the wildlings are not some group of heroes set out to save the world. They are fleeing, as far south as they can. They know that taking the wall would mean whatever is following them can also pass it, but they still plan on doing it. They aren't fighting for the living, they are fleeing, without giving a fuck about the living. So even if Jon is giving a good reason for leaving the Night's Watch, it's hardly a reason to join the Wildlings.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby ArgonV » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:14 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Margaery is the Tyrell girl. Olenna is the grandmother. I think Jon is better in the books--the actor in the show is kind of dull and humorless. I also kind of feel that they have been cutting a lot of his better moments. For example, I think the way he convinces Mance Ryder that he wants to join the wildlings is much more compelling.


Show me one humorous scene that Jon Snow has? I can't really think of any. Most of the humor in Jon's chapters comes from Edd. I also don't feel the reason he wants to join isn't that compelling. The Watch has forgotten what it had been started for - protecting Westeros from the white walkers, not fighting the wildlings.

Some of Jon's best scenes are yet to come, I feel. One that comes to mind is (obvious book spoiler)
Spoiler:
'Edd, fetch me a block'


Diadem wrote:
johnie104 wrote:I too think it is too bad that they changed the way Jon convinces Mance Rayder. In the book it gave a way more natural and personal way why Jon specifically betrayed the Watch. I mean if it was so easy to convince the wildling king that you can be trusted, it would have been done a lot more often.

Yeah I didn't quite understand this change either. The book is much more realistic. Especially because the reason given in the series is a bit weird. "I want to fight for the side that fights for the living". The wildlings hate the watch, and Mance probably more than most, but even they know the watch is not that corrupt.

What's more, the wildlings are not some group of heroes set out to save the world. They are fleeing, as far south as they can. They know that taking the wall would mean whatever is following them can also pass it, but they still plan on doing it. They aren't fighting for the living, they are fleeing, without giving a fuck about the living. So even if Jon is giving a good reason for leaving the Night's Watch, it's hardly a reason to join the Wildlings.


I doubt that. The wildlings seem to know a lot more about all the magic in Westeros, which would probably include (book spoiler)
Spoiler:
the Wall being imbued with magic so the white walkers (or Coldhands) can't pass it. They don't seem to know about Valyrian steel or dragonglass though. Anyway, having an impenetrable obstacle that your enemy can't cross seems like a definite advantage.


I was a bit dissapointed with the Jojen vs Summer scene. I really would've liked him saying (book spoilers, again)
Spoiler:
"Don't worry Meera. This is not the day I die." Or something to that effect.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby eSOANEM » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:02 pm UTC

ArgonV wrote:Some of Jon's best scenes are yet to come, I feel. One that comes to mind is (obvious book spoiler)
Spoiler:
'Edd, fetch me a block'



I think that's a prime example of a humorous scene with Jon.

Spoiler:
Unfortunately, I worried they won't be able to have Jon weighing up the different options which definitely helped with the humour.


ArgonV wrote:
Diadem wrote:
johnie104 wrote:What's more, the wildlings are not some group of heroes set out to save the world. They are fleeing, as far south as they can. They know that taking the wall would mean whatever is following them can also pass it, but they still plan on doing it. They aren't fighting for the living, they are fleeing, without giving a fuck about the living. So even if Jon is giving a good reason for leaving the Night's Watch, it's hardly a reason to join the Wildlings.


I doubt that. The wildlings seem to know a lot more about all the magic in Westeros, which would probably include (book spoiler)
Spoiler:
the Wall being imbued with magic so the white walkers (or Coldhands) can't pass it. They don't seem to know about Valyrian steel or dragonglass though. Anyway, having an impenetrable obstacle that your enemy can't cross seems like a definite advantage.


I was a bit dissapointed with the Jojen vs Summer scene. I really would've liked him saying (book spoilers, again)
Spoiler:
"Don't worry Meera. This is not the day I die." Or something to that effect.


Spoiler:
Mance has the horn though. He doesn't want to use it, but I'm pretty sure he picked it up for more than just hanging it on the side of his tent. Getting south is his top priority, saving the world comes next.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Diadem » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:06 pm UTC

ArgonV wrote:
Diadem wrote:What's more, the wildlings are not some group of heroes set out to save the world. They are fleeing, as far south as they can. They know that taking the wall would mean whatever is following them can also pass it, but they still plan on doing it. They aren't fighting for the living, they are fleeing, without giving a fuck about the living. So even if Jon is giving a good reason for leaving the Night's Watch, it's hardly a reason to join the Wildlings.

I doubt that. The wildlings seem to know a lot more about all the magic in Westeros, which would probably include (book spoiler)
Spoiler:
the Wall being imbued with magic so the white walkers (or Coldhands) can't pass it. They don't seem to know about Valyrian steel or dragonglass though. Anyway, having an impenetrable obstacle that your enemy can't cross seems like a definite advantage.

Spoiler:
I'm not so sure. The wildlings want to flee 'as far south as south goes'. If they know the wall will hold off the white walkers, why do they want to flee further south? It would make much sense to team up with the watch and protect the wall together. Or at least make damn sure to not damage the wall or weaken the night's watch while fleeing south.

Besides, it's pretty strongly implied that while the wall can hold off the white walkers, this magic is lost if it's taken. Lord Mormont is not just worried about a few wildlings making trouble if they manage to pass the wall, he clearly fears that the whole world will be doomed. Melisandre too.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Yakk » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:25 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The far north is huge. Maybe south of the wall is as south as south goes. :)
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby MisterCheif » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:23 pm UTC

The song at the end of that last episode. They actually did it. Wow. *slow clap*
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Lucrece » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:27 am UTC

I liked the scene where the council members scrambled to sit near Tywin, and Cersei just casually came and moved a chair next to her father. It showed such open disdain to those across her.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:48 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:I liked the scene where the council members scrambled to sit near Tywin, and Cersei just casually came and moved a chair next to her father. It showed such open disdain to those across her.

Yeah, that was great. It was like "Oh, you didn't know we're gonna shoot this scene with another camera?"
I felt a bit bad for Tyrion.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby ArgonV » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:41 am UTC

Wasn't it meant more as an indication of character? Littlefinger feels he's really important, Varys is Varys, Pycelle does what he's told, Cersei is an arrogant suck-up and Tyrion just wants to be respected by his father? That's how I read it.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby velkito » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:43 pm UTC

As it is, triPodrick is left as a pointless must-keep up-boob-quota scene. He didn't have to pay them..why, exactly?

And, my goodness, the Jaime scene at the end..As a book reader, I knew what was supposed to happen, and it still shocked me. They could've played white noise at the end of the episode and I wouldn't have payed more attention to it. In retrospect it would have been too great a change to not have it happen.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Intrigued » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:47 pm UTC

After Tyrion's nose, I was almost skeptical, especially since the hand thing happened a bit different than in the book. I agree though that it felt like there was no way they could get away without that one, it's just too huge an event for him.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Diadem » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:00 pm UTC

Yeah it was clear that it was going to happen. I still didn't see it coming, mainly because it went so differently than in the books:
Spoiler:
In the books his hand is cut off by a character that isn't in the series (the leader of a ruthless mercenary band working with Bolton). So they had to change that. But this is a pretty big change of character for Bolton, because in the books he is actually pretty pissed at this mercenary leader for cutting of Jaime's hand. In the books Bolton is pretty much all cold logic, and this action serves no logical purpose. It's especially jarring in light of future developments, which I won't reveal even in a spoiler.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Chen » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Yeah it was clear that it was going to happen. I still didn't see it coming, mainly because it went so differently than in the books:
Spoiler:
In the books his hand is cut off by a character that isn't in the series (the leader of a ruthless mercenary band working with Bolton). So they had to change that. But this is a pretty big change of character for Bolton, because in the books he is actually pretty pissed at this mercenary leader for cutting of Jaime's hand. In the books Bolton is pretty much all cold logic, and this action serves no logical purpose. It's especially jarring in light of future developments, which I won't reveal even in a spoiler.


Spoiler:
I can still see Bolton being upset at this random dude instead of being upset at Vargo Hoat. I don't think it really changes anything about Bolton's character himself so it should be fine

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby ArgonV » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:08 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Diadem wrote:Yeah it was clear that it was going to happen. I still didn't see it coming, mainly because it went so differently than in the books:
Spoiler:
In the books his hand is cut off by a character that isn't in the series (the leader of a ruthless mercenary band working with Bolton). So they had to change that. But this is a pretty big change of character for Bolton, because in the books he is actually pretty pissed at this mercenary leader for cutting of Jaime's hand. In the books Bolton is pretty much all cold logic, and this action serves no logical purpose. It's especially jarring in light of future developments, which I won't reveal even in a spoiler.


Spoiler:
I can still see Bolton being upset at this random dude instead of being upset at Vargo Hoat. I don't think it really changes anything about Bolton's character himself so it should be fine


(Bookspoiler)
Spoiler:
Also, doesn't Vargo Hoat cut off Jaime's hand, because he suspects Roose considering to switch to Tywin's side and trying to prevent it by deliberately mistreating his son? In the show, it's pretty clear Roose isn't considering switching or at least hasn't told Locke yet, since he says 'If I let you go, Robb will have my head'. So he's still loyal to the Starks.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:54 pm UTC

Totally saw that coming.

Spoiler:
How stupid do you have to be to sell your entire army like that?

Also, I didn't think it was possible, but I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Jaime Kingslayer.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby ArgonV » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:17 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Totally saw that coming.

Spoiler:
How stupid do you have to be to sell your entire army like that?

Also, I didn't think it was possible, but I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Jaime Kingslayer.


I think he was just really, really greedy

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Dark567 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:23 pm UTC

ArgonV wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Totally saw that coming.

Spoiler:
How stupid do you have to be to sell your entire army like that?

Also, I didn't think it was possible, but I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Jaime Kingslayer.


I think he was just really, really greedy
Also, sexist. He thought he was dealing with timid girl.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:30 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Totally saw that coming.

Spoiler:
How stupid do you have to be to sell your entire army like that?

Also, I didn't think it was possible, but I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Jaime Kingslayer.


You would have thought that... (show only)

Spoiler:
They would have put in some kind of directive that the Unsullied aren't supposed to attack them.

Be careful, otherwise soon you'll be rooting for Joffrey too! :D

I think that the entire Jaime/Brienne narrative, book and show, is brilliantly done.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:31 pm UTC

I too saw it coming! Well, sort of,
Spoiler:
I said at the end of the last episode there's no way she'll get rid of the dragon, she has to have a plan to keep him. And then right when we got back to her scenes in this episodes I said she'll probably just march her new soldiers on the city. On the one hand, this doesn't make her very trustworthy - strike a deal with her and she'll stab you in the back. On the other hand, the whole setting the slaves free thing was pretty cool of her.


I really liked this episode. It had excellent mixtures of hilarious, awesome, and horrifying. The only bits that were boring were north of the wall. Honestly they were very very blah. Hopefully, considering recent events, we'll get something more interesting (or at least different) next episode.

Also, I'm pretty sure Nick Fury is gonna win.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:05 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
Be careful, otherwise soon you'll be rooting for Joffrey too! :D

Spoiler:
No danger of that, although I am glad his wife-to-be seems to have him under control. Insidious manipulative evilness is far preferable to capricious spiteful evilness.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Dark567 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:25 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
Also, I didn't think it was possible, but I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Jaime Kingslayer.

Comparing Jaime between the (early) books and the show:
Spoiler:
Jaime in the books never seemed as straight forwardly evil as in the show(unlike Joffery, who is evil in both). The only real act I remember outright evilness was pushing Bran out the window (He never killed his cousin in the cell in the books). The books basically just had everyone believing he was evil due to the King slaying.


Zohar wrote:I too saw it coming! Well, sort of,
Spoiler:
I said at the end of the last episode there's no way she'll get rid of the dragon, she has to have a plan to keep him. And then right when we got back to her scenes in this episodes I said she'll probably just march her new soldiers on the city. On the one hand, this doesn't make her very trustworthy - strike a deal with her and she'll stab you in the back. On the other hand, the whole setting the slaves free thing was pretty cool of her.
Spoiler:
How much are they really 'free' though? These people have been brainwashed their entire lives to unflinchingly obey their masters. Is that just gonna go away in 30 seconds? Basically I see the conversation going like this:
Dany:"You're free!"
Unsullied:"Hooray!"
Dany:"Do you guys still want to fight for me?"
Unsullied:"Of course, master! We will die for you. You are our master."


I really liked this episode. It had excellent mixtures of hilarious, awesome, and horrifying. The only bits that were boring were north of the wall. Honestly they were very very blah. Hopefully, considering recent events, we'll get something more interesting (or at least different) next episode.[/quote]Wait. What?
Spoiler:
The mutiny of the nights watch over throwing the lord commander wasn't enough for you?
I apologize, 90% of the time I write on the Fora I am intoxicated.


Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:31 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Spoiler:
How much are they really 'free' though? These people have been brainwashed their entire lives to unflinchingly obey their masters. Is that just gonna go away in 30 seconds? Basically I see the conversation going like this:
Dany:"You're free!"
Unsullied:"Hooray!"
Dany:"Do you guys still want to fight for me?"
Unsullied:"Of course, master! We will die for you. You are our master."


Spoiler:
Pretty sure that's exactly what she was counting on. She gets to use an army of slaves whilst being able to tell everyone afterwards that she did nothing of the sort.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:46 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:Wait. What?
Spoiler:
The mutiny of the nights watch over throwing the lord commander wasn't enough for you?


I just can't get myself interested about anything that happens north of the wall. My friend who's read the books said Jon Snow is one of the favorite characters among fans, along with Arya and Tyrion. I can understand the latter two (Arya's my favorite on the show), but Jon has been poorly represented at the least, as I believe I mentioned above. So now, even the whole thing at the end was only OK-ish for me.

As for the soldiers' issue with Danny,
Spoiler:
I agree with SlyReaper's opinion above - she's made a political move that has no actual cost to herself - the soldiers won't suddenly become free, but people will say she's kind. Also, she did free the slaves in the city instead of killing them, and that was nice of her, she didn't have to do that and she has nothing to gain by it.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Adacore » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:13 pm UTC

That was an awesome episode, one of the best yet. Slow political buildup in the first half and a couple of really cool set pieces at the end. There were so many bits of Dany's section that I loved, but the low shot with the wall of Astapor behind her and the closing shot of the episode were fantastic.
Dark567 wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
Also, I didn't think it was possible, but I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Jaime Kingslayer.

Comparing Jaime between the (early) books and the show:
Spoiler:
Jaime in the books never seemed as straight forwardly evil as in the show(unlike Joffery, who is evil in both). The only real act I remember outright evilness was pushing Bran out the window (He never killed his cousin in the cell in the books). The books basically just had everyone believing he was evil due to the King slaying.

Futher book comparison:
Spoiler:
Book 3 is also the first time you get Jaime point-of-view chapters. That basically opens up his internal monologue to the reader for the first time, and over the course of the book you begin to realise his motives and values and gradually come to see him as at least significantly less evil. He's not a shining beacon of good, but he's definitely in the middle of the grey area. They've not played up the history of the Kingslayer title anywhere near as much in the show (in the book it dominates most discussions he has with Brienne), so I guess this will be less pronounced.

Future book spoilers:
Spoiler:
There's a bit more exploration of the motives of the villains in books 4-5, too, with point of view Cersei chapters. Contrasted with Jaime, she really does come across as mostly evil once you get to see her inner monologue.

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby Dark567 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:30 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:Futher book comparison:
Spoiler:
Book 3 is also the first time you get Jaime point-of-view chapters. That basically opens up his internal monologue to the reader for the first time, and over the course of the book you begin to realise his motives and values and gradually come to see him as at least significantly less evil. He's not a shining beacon of good, but he's definitely in the middle of the grey area. They've not played up the history of the Kingslayer title anywhere near as much in the show (in the book it dominates most discussions he has with Brienne), so I guess this will be less pronounced.

Spoiler:
Yeah, they definitely play it up more in the books to show that everyone else's perception of him is actually somewhat off. This is a minor issue I have with the show, where he really does seem to be more evil(i.e. willing to murder his own innocent family member for his selfish reasons).

Adacore wrote:Future book spoilers:
Spoiler:
There's a bit more exploration of the motives of the villains in books 4-5, too, with point of view Cersei chapters. Contrasted with Jaime, she really does come across as mostly evil once you get to see her inner monologue.
Spoiler:
Not necessarily evil, but paranoid as all hell for her and her children. Its interesting that I had a very similar turn about her in the books and show, where at first I thought she was scheming for power, and realized later, that really she's scheming out of her paranoia. That makes her at least somewhat more sympathetic I think. That she's deathly afraid of someone(i.e. Tyrion, Margaery) hurting her children(and she's not wrong to be!). That said, she certainly isn't likable.
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Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?

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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby hawkinsssable » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:39 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:As for the soldiers' issue with Danny,
Spoiler:
I agree with SlyReaper's opinion above - she's made a political move that has no actual cost to herself - the soldiers won't suddenly become free, but people will say she's kind. Also, she did free the slaves in the city instead of killing them, and that was nice of her, she didn't have to do that and she has nothing to gain by it.


Spoiler:
Is she really that... iunno... disingenuous? It seems to me like she's been portrayed pretty consistently in the show as having the strongest / least compromising moral identity of any of the characters in that plot arc, and possibly any of the characters in the show.

It also seems like she's given less and less of a fuck about what other people think of her as she's grown more and more confident.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:59 pm UTC

hawkinsssable wrote:
Zohar wrote:As for the soldiers' issue with Danny,
Spoiler:
I agree with SlyReaper's opinion above - she's made a political move that has no actual cost to herself - the soldiers won't suddenly become free, but people will say she's kind. Also, she did free the slaves in the city instead of killing them, and that was nice of her, she didn't have to do that and she has nothing to gain by it.


Spoiler:
Is she really that... iunno... disingenuous? It seems to me like she's been portrayed pretty consistently in the show as having the strongest / least compromising moral identity of any of the characters in that plot arc, and possibly any of the characters in the show.

It also seems like she's given less and less of a fuck about what other people think of her as she's grown more and more confident.

Spoiler:
She's either disingenuous or naive.
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Re: Game of Throngs

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:03 pm UTC

hawkinsssable wrote:
Zohar wrote:As for the soldiers' issue with Danny,
Spoiler:
I agree with SlyReaper's opinion above - she's made a political move that has no actual cost to herself - the soldiers won't suddenly become free, but people will say she's kind. Also, she did free the slaves in the city instead of killing them, and that was nice of her, she didn't have to do that and she has nothing to gain by it.


Spoiler:
Is she really that... iunno... disingenuous? It seems to me like she's been portrayed pretty consistently in the show as having the strongest / least compromising moral identity of any of the characters in that plot arc, and possibly any of the characters in the show.

It also seems like she's given less and less of a fuck about what other people think of her as she's grown more and more confident.
Yeah, and in that same scene in the book,
Spoiler:
I feel like it's made clearer that she is actually concerned that they choose to follow her freely. That's not to say she isn't pretty confident that they'll do so, since she did just free them and the rest of the slaves in the city, but brainwashed or no, she wants them to know that they can leave without risk of harm, unlike when they were owned. Of course, it's not as though risk of harm was a significant deterrent to begin with, what with the whole aforementioned brainwashing thing.
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