Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

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KnightExemplar
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue May 26, 2015 9:17 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I also still find this dismissal of violence because we don't have a 'violent' culture to be a poor argument. Additionally, for example, I personally think I was religiously indoctrinated, and find all the sequences with the Sparrows to be very upsetting for a few reasons.


Agree'd on this point, although I personally have grown accustomed to it. My years of watching Anime has more or less readied me for these sorts of things. (Light Yagami / Misa being explicitly Catholic in "Death Note"). In the great scheme of things, I'm actually finding the HBO representation of religious violence to be rather tame.

Game of Thrones seems to have this whole multiple religions thing going on. It seems like "The New Seven" are representative of a false Religion, which is being associated with Middle-Age religious politics (The Holy Roman Empire and what-not). "The Old Seven" seem to be the forgotten "true" religion (with the god-trees, true prophesies and what-have-you). The source of true power, true gods and the like.

Its an interesting take on Religion for sure IMO. The Sparrows are upsetting only from a shallow perspective. When I look at the show as a whole, the themes of Religion are very well put together IMO.

With that said, I'm more or less in agreement with Izawwlgood. I fully understand the issues of rape and so forth, but lets be frank here: this is not the first rape of the series and it won't be the last. This is a show about horrible things being done to good people. Heck, if anything, the previous episodes have had more poetic justice in them than the rest of the series put together.

Season 3 / Season 4 spoilers about Shae
Spoiler:
EDIT: If anything, the entire sequence of Shae was when I got fully pissed off at the series. The thought of a woman "losing her mind to years of sex" is a continuation of the "rape myth" and other such ugly bits of culture. Its a common concept in literature (and pornography), but I don't particularly like it being used as a character-development device.

Shae ultimately was supposed to be a "weak woman", one who was dominated by Tywin Lannister. The show kinda implied that she was working for Tywin the entire time, but IIRC her character was supposed to be more of a "tragic downfall"... where she originally loved Tyrion but then was manipulated into a whore who worked for Tywin through a series of tragic circumstances.

Whether or not I can take it as a "character flaw" or whether I should take it as "tired old trope that I should criticize"... I'm kinda on the fence about. At the end of the day, sex was used to visually and figuratively demonstrate Tywin Lannister's victory over Shae. Something doesn't quite feel right to me about the character... and I frankly would rather discuss Shae's circumstances over Sansa's


Honestly, its small stuff going on with Sansa right now. Season 3 / Season 4 easily got things beat as far as this "rape as a storytelling technique" thing goes. IMO, we should discuss the ramifications of the show back then... which are a much worse example IMO. In particular:

Spoiler:
Shae is a good woman while she's sexually active with Tyrion. Shae is an evil whore while (or because of??) she's sexually active with Tywin.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 26, 2015 10:32 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Game of Thrones seems to have this whole multiple religions thing going on. It seems like "The New Seven" are representative of a false Religion, which is being associated with Middle-Age religious politics (The Holy Roman Empire and what-not). "The Old Seven" seem to be the forgotten "true" religion (with the god-trees, true prophesies and what-have-you). The source of true power, true gods and the like.
Point of clarification - the 'New Gods' are the Seven, and are, I feel in some ways, analogous to Christianity. The 'Old Gods' are the trees (wyrewood? bloodwood? the sprawling white barked trees with red leaves, I forget what they're called), and are more representative of paganism.

KnightExemplar wrote:Its an interesting take on Religion for sure IMO. The Sparrows are upsetting only from a shallow perspective. When I look at the show as a whole, the themes of Religion are very well put together IMO.
Oh, I feel it's upsetting insofar as they're religiously indoctrinating their followers, and are hiding behind 'morality' to violently wrest control from the city.

Re; Stuff on Shae - I don't really follow your interpretation. I don't recall any 'losing her mind', as much as Shae being what amounts to a courtesan who chose who she was partnered with based on their power. I didn't feel there was any judgement of her beyond her betrayal of Tyrion. Tywin called her a whore to specifically taunt Tyrion - when Tyrion was younger, he fell in love with a girl, who it turned out had been paid to have sex with him. Calling that girl and Shae whores are Tywins way of saying Tyrion has never known true love.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed May 27, 2015 12:34 am UTC

I don't recall any 'losing her mind', as much as Shae being what amounts to a courtesan who chose who she was partnered with based on their power


Which seems to be the "standard" interpretation from the TV Show, and possibly the direction that the TV Show wished to move Shae's character in. Most of the people I've discussed seem to have your interpretation. (And for reasons I am about to make clear... I typically leave it there).

But since this is online, I feel a bit more comfortable about talking about some pornography tropes.

Spoiler:
Call me a cynic... but I personally see an element of NTR / Netorare in Shae's storyline (TVTropes definition here). At very least, the "villain" of Tyrion's storyline is definitely Tywin. Tywin is most certainly having sex with Shae (and Shae is waiting for more of the villain's dick as she dies). Cuckold seems to be the English word of the trope, but I'm personally more aware of the anime/manga term.

I'm generally of the opinion that NTR / Cuckold plotlines are generally anti-women to the core. They objectify the woman (in this case, Shae) as the prize that is battled between Tyrion and Tywin.


Although, I do admit that my interpretation is a stretch, I hope you can see where I'm coming from at least.

I don't recall any 'losing her mind'


Spoiler:
This could be me projecting my understanding of NTR tropes / Cuckold storylines onto Game of Thrones unfairly. But in NTR / Cuckold, it is relatively common that the "stolen girl" be traumatized in some fashion, which leads to her having sexual relations with the villain at the cost of the protagonist. The particular point of "losing her mind" isn't necessary for the NTR / Cuckold trope to take hold. But it'd be evidence towards NTR / Cuckold (and is very common in the genre).

In the typical NTR storyline: the female character gets "corrupted by sex". IE: The woman loves the villain's dick more than the hero's. Its a porn trope, it doesn't necessarily have to make sense.

But where my cynicism comes in is that the trope is actually being played for serious in Game of Thrones. Shae is literally in Tywin's lap. Having sex with him... for some undisclosed amount of time. Furthermore, it is clear that she enjoys having sex with Tywin and is (by the end of the plot) on "Tywin's side". (Symbolically, the sex of course. But also through her public betrayal of Tyrion). Afterwards, the loss is played to invoke a jealous rampage on behalf of Tyrion (and also played so that the audience can "feel" the jealousy within Tyrion).

Therefore, the NTR plotline is solid. Invoking the feeling of loss and jealousy is the core of NTR.

I can go back to season 3 as the "moment when Shae's mind broke". Tyrion attempts to dismiss Shae by calling her a whore (so that she can safely live on an island far away from King's Landing). By my interpretation, that was the straw that broke Shae's fragile mind, and she degenerates into a "true whore" of Tywin Lannister. Therefore, Shae's character is one of tragic defeat, and she slips into the common NTR / Cuckold anti-women tropes due to Tyrion's mistake.

With that said, "Shae losing her mind" is a distraction from my primary argument. My primary argument is as follows:

1. Netorare / Cuckold tropes are "tropes against women".
2. Shae's storyline follows NTR / Cuckold.

At the end of the day, NTR is a hurtful "Adultery" trope... a trope against women for sure. And I think I have a strong argument that Shae's degeneration is in fact NTR / Cuckold. Perhaps the relationship between Tyrion, Tywin, and Shae isn't NTR purely (as a porn trope, NTR would almost purely be a battle of who is more "sexually pleasing" to Shae). Nonetheless, the elements of NTR are certainly in the storyline. The NTR elements are at least being used as a metaphore... and are justification for Tyrion's actions. (Cold-blooded Murder of both Shae and Tywin)


Anyway, its a little bit hard for me to get pissed off about "rape as character development" when just a few seasons ago, we have "Netorare / NTR / Cuckold as character development". One of these tropes explicitly objectifies women... with an explicit goal to develop jealousy through the "male gaze" of the audience. The other does not.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby ameretrifle » Wed May 27, 2015 3:30 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Sex is part of this show. If that makes you uncomfortable, this show may not be for you.

How in the name of fuck did you jump from "having problems with watching rape" to "having problems with watching sex".

I mean, there was an outer fringe of the feminist movement that equated the two, but I'm pretty sure they at least specified that a penis be involved.

(I'm not saying this to espouse one side of the argument or the other. I stopped watching ages ago because I didn't like the violence OR the rape, which shields me from the "you're not allowed to complain if you don't object to the violence too" argument, and the "you're not allowed to complain if you're still watching it after all the rape and violence they've shown already" argument, but subjects me to the "you're not even watching, what do you know, it's none of your business" argument. Funny how that works. Anyway, point being, that line was just, :shock: ಠ_ಠ , OK?)

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 27, 2015 3:36 am UTC

You are right, that was what I can only call a typo on my part. I meant to write 'Rape is part of the show...'
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Wed May 27, 2015 9:12 am UTC

We don't have a culture that perpetuates violence? That's news to me. I even recall several sports that celebrate it, including Hockey, WWE, MMA, boxing, etc.

I guess people don't go to bars either. It's not like drunk young men aren't killing each other over petty conflict on a daily basis. Bouncers exist in virtually every club for decoration purposes.

Let's look at the prison population and compare the amount of rapists to murderers and those who physically assaulted people. Maybe we'll get a glimpse of what are the actual proportions of societal problems instead of what professional activists and other crisis vendors try to portray on Daily Koz or Salon or the new guy in the blog Vox.

And how a cult hit show on a luxury subscription channel with a limited audience, mostly consisting of upper middle class nerds, is the problem.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Wed May 27, 2015 12:36 pm UTC

I didn't say we don't have a culture of violence. I said we don't have a culture of the type of violence that appears in Game of Thrones. As I said, I don't have the statistics but the number of people whose eyes get crushed or are hunted by dogs or cleaved by swords is probably a lot lower than the number of crimes involving rape. I would agree with you if GoT had guns on the show, and that would be a point we could make. But that's not the case, and rape is so casual and constant on the show that I do believe it is a problem.

And if you think "upper middle class nerds" don't commit rape and aren't affected by cultural trends, well, I don't know what to tell you. This is the GoT thread, so I'm discussing GoT, and what I perceive of its impact. I certainly don't think the single best thing we can do to lower sexual assault or violence statistics is to cancel the show or to tame it, not by a long shot, but in the scope of the show itself, I will criticize it from a societal point of view.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 27, 2015 12:42 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I didn't say we don't have a culture of violence. I said we don't have a culture of the type of violence that appears in Game of Thrones. As I said, I don't have the statistics but the number of people whose eyes get crushed or are hunted by dogs or cleaved by swords is probably a lot lower than the number of crimes involving rape. I would agree with you if GoT had guns on the show, and that would be a point we could make. But that's not the case, and rape is so casual and constant on the show that I do believe it is a problem.
ameretrifle was right to point out that my typo made an extremely problematic sentence equating 'rape' to 'sex' - I'd like to point out that I find your dismissal of violence because it's violence by sword instead of violence by gun to be in a similar vein. Just because I've never been hunted down by dogs and shot full of arrows doesn't mean violence isn't going to affect me. Just because a rape victim was never imprisoned in a tower and had her bodice ripped off while her castrated and traumatized childhood friend watched doesn't mean they wouldn't be affected by that scene.

You're drawing terribly neat little lines around violence and saying 'this shows violence is irrelevant' and simultaneously treating ALL forms of sexual violence as untouchable for storytelling purposes because people are victims of sexual violence.

The show is violent. The violence is physical and sexual in nature. You may feel the show doesn't handle sexual violence appropriately, and that's your prerogative, but dismissing all the other violence is very unreasonable seeming to me.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Wed May 27, 2015 1:09 pm UTC

Either I'm not making myself clear, or you're misunderstanding...
  • As I mentioned multiple times, I don't think it's inherently wrong to include sexual violence in a medium. I think this show does it badly, and I gave examples of media I thought handled such issues much better.
  • Similarly I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about including violence in a show. You're right that we've become much more numb to random violence, but I think there are a few key differences:
    1. Showing violence doesn't incite further violence (look at all the studies rebuffing the "Violent games raise murderers!" idea).
    2. Rape culture has been proven to not be the same case - it actually can propagate and become more common if a rape is treated lightly, as I believe they've been doing on the show (most obviously with Dany and Cersei, less so with Sansa).
    3. Again, I don't know the numbers, and I'm certainly not an expert on violence (I know much more about sexual violence crimes), but the type of violence displayed in GoT is just not the same type that is prevalent in the US (for example). I just looked up some figures from the FBI and it looks like in 2013 (didn't find more updated data) there were on average 4.5 murders per 100K people and 25 rapes per 100K people, and that only includes reported rapes. I didn't compare numbers for assault or other charges, but I think it makes it clear that yeah, rape is a pretty big deal, and a bigger deal personally, to me. If I made the impression that I think a discussion about the violence on the show if futile, then I apologize. I personally think its portrayal is less problematic, is all.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed May 27, 2015 2:37 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:rape is a pretty big deal, and a bigger deal personally, to me

Ok, it's a particularly big deal to you and the show has had problems with the topic before but I just don't understand why you are particularly opposed to the Sansa scene in particular. It is the most considerate portrayal in the show so far and it also happens to be a sharp criticism of rape- it is made obvious to the viewer that it is rape even though they are married and she doesn't struggle or tell him to stop, there is no gratuitous nudity or sexualization of what is happening, there is no apologetics for his actions or blaming of Sansa. You said you have examples of other popular media where the topic was handled better?

At the same time, no one has commented on the Gilly scene from last episode which suffers from a lot of problems that people have (at least for me- mistakenly) been criticizing the Sansa scene for. But Gilly isn't the main character so I haven't seen anyone up in arms over how what happened to her was unnecessary, lazy writing and not from the source material.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Wed May 27, 2015 2:53 pm UTC

Oh I commented on the Gilly scene as well. To repeat myself, my issue with Sansa's scene is twofold - concentrating on Theon's pain (which I agree is a thing, but seemed to be more of a thing than Sansa's pain), and showing the rape pretty graphically (when they actually did focus on her face). I would have preferred the scene to have ended when Theon was told to stay, and not have the more graphical shots and the misdirected focus be part of the episode. Gilly's scene suffers from a similar fault - focusing on how heroic Sam is (and his subsequent reward).

Both of those scenes are not inherently worse than previous rape scenes (certainly I'm bothered more when the creators don't understand they're filming rape, for instance). My offense to them is they're yet another example of sexual assault on women done inappropriately and without much cause, and part of a long series of what seem to me as bad decisions on the show.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 27, 2015 2:55 pm UTC

I don't think we're misunderstanding one another - I've disagreed with your interpretation that rape is poorly handled in this show, not that you feel rape should never be portrayed in storytelling.
Zohar wrote:rape is a pretty big deal, and a bigger deal personally, to me. If I made the impression that I think a discussion about the violence on the show if futile, then I apologize. I personally think its portrayal is less problematic, is all.
This is precisely why I keep telling you that the show may not be for you - you are quite desensitized to one form of violence the show portrays, and frankly, willing to write it off, and quite sensitized to another, and frankly, incapable of seeing it portrayed in any manner that you find appropriate.

This show is not sweeping rape under the rug. It's not sweeping physical violence under the rug either, though even the most shocking forms of it don't seem to bother you.

maybeagnostic wrote:At the same time, no one has commented on the Gilly scene from last episode which suffers from a lot of problems that people have (at least for me- mistakenly) been criticizing the Sansa scene for. But Gilly isn't the main character so I haven't seen anyone up in arms over how what happened to her was unnecessary, lazy writing and not from the source material.
Spoiler:
If you're referring to her attempted rape, and the way she then had sex with Sam, I think but could be mistaken that's A ) a phenomenon that is common in survivors of assault as a means to wrest back some control of their sexuality (See Girl in the Pearl Earrings), and B ) did not happen in a vacuum, as the romantic tension with her and Sam has been building for something like a whole season at this point.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Wed May 27, 2015 3:26 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:This is precisely why I keep telling you that the show may not be for you - you are quite desensitized to one form of violence the show portrays, and frankly, willing to write it off, and quite sensitized to another, and frankly, incapable of seeing it portrayed in any manner that you find appropriate.

I don't feel I'm "writing it off", I honestly didn't notice much discussion about the level of violence on the show, nor people trying to direct discussion towards it.

I think there's a more general issue here, that we kind of talked about in the Ex Machina thread as well - just because there are specific aspects of a medium that I don't approve of doesn't mean I'm not interested in watching it. I try to criticize everything I'm watching/reading/playing. Obviously not always in the same way, and usually with different parameters. I don't think analysis and critic makes a medium or my experience of it any worse - it makes me more aware, and for me at least it enriches the experience, forcing me to think more carefully about the events unfolding in front of me. I've been watching the show for so long (and am continuing to watch it) because even though there are parts of it I greatly dislike, there's still enough interesting there to keep me watching. And it's obviously involved me in some interesting arguments about the show and its context as well, which I appreciate, regardless of whether or not the creators intended that. If I find the show doesn't keep me interested enough (or does things I disapprove of enough) then I'll stop watching.

I forgot, maybeagnostic, you asked about examples where rape was portrayed better, the two I can think of off the top of my head are Joan's rape in Mad Men season 2, and the rape at the end of Outlander (the first book in the series, I haven't watched the show so I don't know how they handled it). It's been a while since I saw Mad Men but for Outlander, even though I think it did a marvelous job in some respects, I still have my own criticisms.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 27, 2015 3:48 pm UTC

Firstly, I do feel you're writing off the physical violence in the show - your argument is that people aren't sworded to death or hunted by wolves or getting their eyes gouged out and their skulls caved in by men called the mountain, and as such, the violence is stylized and removed from the viewer base who has experienced violence. That was my whole point to you about why I think it's unreasonable of you to draw neat little boundaries around the physical violence, but then characterize all sexual violence as poorly handled, or in the case of Jave D, to simply let all issues between characters fall into this black hole of 'it was rape'.

Secondly, as I said in the Ex Machina thread, I think part of my contention with your arguments is that the alternatives are equally upsetting to you. It's not a matter of a particular tale handling it well, as much a matter of you simply not liking what you see. You disliked that Sansa's rape scene terminated with a pan to Theons face, because you wanted them to focus on her pain. In the next episode, you were upset that they didn't show her being raped, but instead had her mention it again. Basically, it seems to me like no portrayal of rape in this show is going to be something you find 'acceptable'. And, indeed, while I think there's a right and wrong way to portray rape, a significant point of the show is that humans are fucking awful, and do fucking awful things to one another. As a result, sometimes awful things happen in the scope of this show - absolutely none of it is glorified, and the show, I feel, does a good job distinguishing between good sex (which happens frequently) and rape (which also happens frequently). It also underlines that sometimes the people you love are the one's who are assaulting you.

Thirdly, however, if you're posting these criticisms because you try and remain critical of everything you view, then I completely understand and can relate. There's always room for improvement, of course.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Wed May 27, 2015 4:03 pm UTC

you were upset that they didn't show her being raped, but instead had her mention it again

What? When? I wasn't upset about that at all. I was annoyed they felt any need to mention rape happening over and over and over on the show.

Secondly, you seem to think whenever I mention criticism I mean things upset me, and that's not true. And as I've already said, there are ways to doing things better, and they're just as equally worthy of criticisms.

Regarding the violence issue - I will have to disagree with you. Most violence on the show is impersonal, as part of war or as a means of survival. Most violence in our world is deeply entrenched in class and race issues which are not explored in as much depth (the show does explore these issues, but usually not with the involvement of violence). The sexual violence on the show usually is based on familial or personal connections between the victims and the aggressor, which is good because that's how sexual violence works - the vast majority of sexual attacks are done by an aggressor known to the victim. For this reason, and ones I've mentioned previously, I see a big difference in the relevance and implications of each type of violence on the show. I don't think they're neat little boundaries, I think I have a fairly logical reason to separate between the two and treat them differently.

Edit: Oh another good portrayal of rape (or lack thereof) is in Mad Max. The movie isn't perfect by any means, but we all know exactly how evil the bad guys are, exactly what they've been doing to their victims, but we do it without the exhibitionism in exposing the actual acts done to them.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed May 27, 2015 4:12 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
maybeagnostic wrote:At the same time, no one has commented on the Gilly scene from last episode which suffers from a lot of problems that people have (at least for me- mistakenly) been criticizing the Sansa scene for. But Gilly isn't the main character so I haven't seen anyone up in arms over how what happened to her was unnecessary, lazy writing and not from the source material.
Spoiler:
If you're referring to her attempted rape, and the way she then had sex with Sam, I think but could be mistaken that's A ) a phenomenon that is common in survivors of assault as a means to wrest back some control of their sexuality (See Girl in the Pearl Earrings), and B ) did not happen in a vacuum, as the romantic tension with her and Sam has been building for something like a whole season at this point.

Spoiler:
I just felt it was unnecessary but that might just be because it wasn't in the books and it doesn't add anything to their story. I also couldn't see much as the sun was shining on the screen at the time. Maybe I just need to rewatch the episode.


Zohar wrote:I forgot, maybeagnostic, you asked about examples where rape was portrayed better, the two I can think of off the top of my head are Joan's rape in Mad Men season 2, and the rape at the end of Outlander (the first book in the series, I haven't watched the show so I don't know how they handled it). It's been a while since I saw Mad Men but for Outlander, even though I think it did a marvelous job in some respects, I still have my own criticisms.
Ah, I am not familiar with either of those although they are on my list of things to eventually watch/read. I still think the show is doing a better job of handling Sansa's situation than instances of sexual violence in most things I have watched/read/played.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Thu May 28, 2015 3:39 am UTC

But Sansa's rape IS impersonal. That's Ramsay, he's gone through several women as playtoys and fed them to his dogs when he gets tired of them. He doesn't KNOW Sansa; they've never had a relationship.

In this aspect Ramsay is the spitting image of his father, who casually raped a village woman after hanging her husband in front of her and didn't think much of it until she came to him with a bastard.

Daenerys's rape by Drogo is no different. He grabs her, puts her in doggy style with no regard for her willingness, and proceeds as if it's par for the course. Because it is par for the course, women's choice was hardly a luxury they had in medieval settings. They were little more than commodity. Drogo didn't want to make a point or establish a relationship with Daenerys; he wanted to get laid, and her desire was an irrelevant piece of information for his character.

And while not everyone in society gets their eyes gouged out or stabbed by a sword, they do get stabbed by knives, have their faces beat into a bloody mush when fights break out, possibly ending in dead or in an emergency room; their bones are broken, and the loser in the physical confrontation is often tortured and humiliated by the victor. It's the same game of violent dominance whether it is by sword or gun, and apparently people have quite a tolerance or indifference for it.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 28, 2015 12:51 pm UTC

All the rapes you mentioned happened within marriages, whether they're arranged or not I find mostly irrelevant. The fact the producers decided to turn Dany's first time with Drogo into a rape when it wasn't one in the book (from what I understand anyway), when the show was following the books pretty religiously, only exemplifies my point. I've already mentioned how watching violence in fiction doesn't encourage violence, but the same is not true for sexual violence. I think I've basically said all that I can say at this point...
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 28, 2015 3:00 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:The fact the producers decided to turn Dany's first time with Drogo into a rape when it wasn't one in the book (from what I understand anyway)
It... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssnn''t? In the book, Drogo is quite clearly forcing her into the nuptials, but he also spends a pretty long time trying to arouse her and make her comfortable. He keeps doing things to her, and asking her if she's ready, and she keeps saying 'No'. After a dozen or so of these, he's gotten a physical response out of her, and she says 'Yes', and much boning happens.

It's not... reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally rape? insofar as she's consented eventually and seems to enjoy things, but she doesn't have much choice in the matter other than 'when you're ready though I haven't got all night'.

Similarly, IIRC, Cercei-Jamie in the sept in the book is a bit different - Jamie is pretty forceful, but Cercei is egging him on and begging for him. I think the point that's being made is that relationships are complicated.

Zohar wrote:when the show was following the books pretty religiously
This was never really the case. There have been more deviations the more the story has gone on, but even in the first season there were changes.

Zohar wrote: I've already mentioned how watching violence in fiction doesn't encourage violence, but the same is not true for sexual violence.
Do you have a citation on that? I've never read that sexual violence in films promotes sexual violence in reality.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Thu May 28, 2015 4:04 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zohar wrote:The fact the producers decided to turn Dany's first time with Drogo into a rape when it wasn't one in the book (from what I understand anyway)
It... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssnn''t? In the book, Drogo is quite clearly forcing her into the nuptials, but he also spends a pretty long time trying to arouse her and make her comfortable. He keeps doing things to her, and asking her if she's ready, and she keeps saying 'No'. After a dozen or so of these, he's gotten a physical response out of her, and she says 'Yes', and much boning happens.

It's not... reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally rape? insofar as she's consented eventually and seems to enjoy things, but she doesn't have much choice in the matter other than 'when you're ready though I haven't got all night'.

Similarly, IIRC, Cercei-Jamie in the sept in the book is a bit different - Jamie is pretty forceful, but Cercei is egging him on and begging for him. I think the point that's being made is that relationships are complicated.
When I read the books I thought both cases were rape.

In Dany's case I read it as rape, that she came to actually be enjoying herself by the end. From a cultural perspective this actually bothers me more than anything the show has ever done, as it reinforces a "she says no, but actually really wants it" trope.

In Cercei-Jaime I read this as Cersei saying "not here, but somewhere else". Which is still rape, but she also wanted to have sex with Jaime, just in a location which wasn't in proximity to her dead son.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zohar wrote: I've already mentioned how watching violence in fiction doesn't encourage violence, but the same is not true for sexual violence.
Do you have a citation on that? I've never read that sexual violence in films promotes sexual violence in reality.

Here's one of the studies about rape jokes, which seems to mention other studies as well.
Here's an article that discussed this study, among others.
Here's a study specifically about filmed sexual assaults
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv5pjSRSLGQ]Here's an example of rape jokes done right, if you're interested.[/url]
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 28, 2015 6:00 pm UTC

This may be a conversation for a different thread, but interestingly, some of those studies suggest ALL violence against women increases acceptance of 'rape permissive behavior' in people who were already in 'rape permissive behavior' mode.

So sure, handling the topic of rape and the topic of violence against women 'wrong' can lead to worsening of views of women. I don't think that means GoT specifically has done it wrong all the way through, even if there are >0 examples of depictions of violence against women being handled less than optimally.

A problem I'd have with this assertion is that it's difficult to assess what the 'right' way to handle these story elements is, though I certainly agree examples of 'she was asking for it' or 'she said no when she meant yes' are problematic. I personally didn't like the way the show handled Dany's nuptial with Drogo, though I didn't like it in the book much either.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 28, 2015 6:20 pm UTC

Yeah I don't know what the criteria for "proper treatment" would be. Certainly rape is something that happens in the world and we can't really add an after-school-special message after every scene in GoT about how it's wrong, or people would just not watch the show. Also I'm pretty sure it was clear Sansa's rape was wrong (I'm not saying the same about Cersei because apparently the creators didn't think so), so it's definitely not just filming it in a way that shows it in a negative light.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Thu May 28, 2015 6:29 pm UTC

Zohar wrote: (I'm not saying the same about Cersei because apparently the creators didn't think so)
You've stated this multiple times but I don't think this is necessarily the case. I believe the director of the scene didn't think so, but as far as I can tell he's been fired from GoT.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 28, 2015 6:40 pm UTC

The director continued working on the show for the rest of the season, the showrunners wrote that specific episode (as well as others after it), and the director talked about how he and the showrunners discussed the scene and how to film it, so sounds to me like the statement is pretty accurate.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby ArgonV » Thu May 28, 2015 7:49 pm UTC

So, since this is still the Game of Thrones topic, despite 3 pages of rape-depiction-in-popular-culture debate (which I personally really feel should be held somewhere else now)

Something I read about Theon last episode
Spoiler:
do you guys think Theon was actually trying to help Sansa by going to Ramsay? Perhaps he feared it was a ploy by Ramsay to let her believe she could get out and he'd punish her if she'd tried, so in his mind, he saved her from worse.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Thu May 28, 2015 7:54 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:The director continued working on the show for the rest of the season, the showrunners wrote that specific episode (as well as others after it), and the director talked about how he and the showrunners discussed the scene and how to film it, so sounds to me like the statement is pretty accurate.
GoT films all the episodes of a seasons before airing any episodes, and for that matter doesn't really shoot episodes in linear order. My understanding is the Jaime Cersei scene was the last scene this director shot even if other episodes/scenes were aired afterward.


"Game of Thrones'" showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss had a fundamentally different reading of the "Breaker of Chains'" rape scene than director Alex Graves. In the Season 4, episode 3 "Inside the Episode" video, Benioff and Weiss break down the scene that has everyone talking.

In regards to Jaime's "Why have the gods made me love a hateful woman" line, Benioff explains, "He's not saying he doesn't love [Cersei]. He's saying he wished he loves somebody less hateful, but unfortunately he loves her and she happens to be his sister on top of it."

When Jaime forces himself on Cersei, Benioff says, "It becomes a really horrifying scene because you see obviously Joffrey's body right there and you see that Cersei is resisting. She's saying 'no' and he's forcing himself on her. It was a really uncomfortable scene, and a really tricky scene to shoot."

By contrast, Graves said of the scene, "Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things." Many viewers have agreed with Benioff's take more than Graves'.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 28, 2015 8:04 pm UTC

Hmm, fair enough then. Though if they meant it to look like rape, it doesn't really explain why they'd choose to portray it so differently, but that's beside the point I suppose.

ArgonV - I dunno, to me it just seems like he was afraid, I don't think there was any other motive behind this. Also considering the discussion revolved pretty constantly around examples and issues raised in the show, I'm pretty sure this is the place for it. That said, I'll gladly start talking about something else :)
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 28, 2015 8:17 pm UTC

Zohar wrote: I dunno, to me it just seems like he was afraid, I don't think there was any other motive behind this.
I agree with your interpretation, though I think Argons is interesting. I felt that whole sequence was meant to show that Theon wasn't going to be an ally here, or that maybe Theon was going to have to fall a bit further by betraying Sansa before he could muster the humanity to save her.

Ultimately, I *really* hope Sansa saves herself, and does so cleverly and bravely.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Thu May 28, 2015 8:27 pm UTC

I think Theon is both very afraid of Ramsey but also suffers from a sort a Stockholm Syndrome .... I imagine(maybe because I've seen his POV in the books) that Theon is thinking "Ramsey is so good to me, he hasn't hurt me in two days and lets me sleep in the kennel instead of on the cross".
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 28, 2015 8:45 pm UTC

Oh, yes, I think it goes without saying that buried under (and due to) multiple layers of intense trauma Theon has intense Stockholm Syndrome.

I can't remember if it was in this thread or in conversation that I heard it, but I think for all intents and purposes, Theon is no longer a person as much a zombified mess.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu May 28, 2015 9:14 pm UTC

The books have an advantage over the film in this regard. We don't see Theon's transformation into Reek, instead we have Theon PoV chapters until he gets captured (and the original Reek killed). Then, a while later, we get chapters headed "Reek". It makes it very clear that Theon doesn't really exist any more.

The show doesn't really get this advantage, but they did get Alfie Allen to audition for the part of Reek instead of Theon because Reek is the more important character (at least, the most important to get right).
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Fri May 29, 2015 5:15 pm UTC

I think it may also serve to alienate the viewer from Theon, on case he gets killed off at some point. It's easier to accept the death of a traitor than that of a victim.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:36 am UTC

I do believe the shit has hit the fan this episode.

Spoiler:
Valerian Steel sword must have dragon-glass shards in it or some equivalent
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:37 pm UTC

Oh right, it's that time of the week when there's a new episode. Be back here in a day or two.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Sprocket » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:53 pm UTC

Actually I guess it seems like GRRM is showing Christianity more for what it really is in some ways.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:58 pm UTC

Spoiler:
KnightExemplar wrote:I do believe the shit has hit the fan this episode.

[spoiler]Valerian Steel sword must have dragon-glass shards in it or some equivalent

I think it was mentioned that the only way to kill the white walkers was dragon glass or Valyrian Steel. The theme being both are 'forged of dragon fire' or something. Or, McGuffins. But there's some precedent for that.[/spoiler]

On Sansa -
Spoiler:
Not much development happened for her other than she knows her brothers are alive. Theon isn't an ally, and is still despised, but through his incompetence she now knows she isn't the last Stark.


On Dany -
Spoiler:
TYRION-DANY BFFS4LYFE. Favorite part of the season so far


On the North -
Spoiler:
FINALLY, after 5 fucking seasons the story gets somewhere interesting. The political drama is good, there's so much richness to these characters, but I love that all of it is just to obfuscate the real thing that's going down.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:12 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Spoiler:
Valerian Steel sword must have dragon-glass shards in it or some equivalent

Spoiler:
I think it's been speculated, but unconfirmed until now, that Valyrian steel has the same WW-killing powers.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:21 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I think it's been speculated, but unconfirmed until now, that Valyrian steel has the same WW-killing powers.

I believe the gyst is that the Targaryeans became the powerful dynasty because they mastered... somethingsomethingDragons... and used this to unite the families against the White Walkers in the past.

Also, the whole 'Song of Ice and Fire' thing - Ice may refer to the white walkers, while Fire refers to Dany/Targaryeans/everyone else. It could alternatively refer to Ice as Jon Snow, and Fire as Dany
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby ArgonV » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:40 pm UTC

THAT WAS AWESOME!
Spoiler:
This really felt like the traditional episode 9, although they are usually one episode of battle, not half-an-episode.

Wun Wun was awesome, I was a bit scared he'd turn into a wight as well. If only John had one obsidian tipped-arrow...


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