Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

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KnightExemplar
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:23 pm UTC

I agree the Season finale was good. Clearly the writers worked hard on making the finale work, but they took some serious liberties to get here.

Spoiler:
I think I figured out what pisses me off about the whole Sansa / Arya thing: that the "Point of View characters" have effectively hidden information from the audience. If Petyr Baelish were the point of view character for Season 7, it would have been far more interesting. The scene with Sansa / Arya talking about faces still makes no fucking sense. It exists purely to fuck the audience's expectations, because apparently Sansa / Arya were planning on fucking over Petyr Baelish this whole time.

I think its reasonable to expect that a combination of Sansa, Arya, and Bran working together would finally break Petyr Baelish. But the whole event just seemed lazily written to me.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:15 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I agree the Season finale was good. Clearly the writers worked hard on making the finale work, but they took some serious liberties to get here.

Spoiler:
I think I figured out what pisses me off about the whole Sansa / Arya thing: that the "Point of View characters" have effectively hidden information from the audience. If Petyr Baelish were the point of view character for Season 7, it would have been far more interesting. The scene with Sansa / Arya talking about faces still makes no fucking sense. It exists purely to fuck the audience's expectations, because apparently Sansa / Arya were planning on fucking over Petyr Baelish this whole time.

I think its reasonable to expect that a combination of Sansa, Arya, and Bran working together would finally break Petyr Baelish. But the whole event just seemed lazily written to me.


100% agree wit this.

Spoiler:
I don't understand the writers and the need for drama here. There's enough going on that you can make things dramatic without these "shocking revelations".

Like Jon falling under the ice in the previous episode. Why was that necessary? You could have had him fall off the damn dragon instead and have Benjen rescue him. It would have been less contrived. And it would have been even better if Rhaegal had come save him instead of Benjen ex machina. Would have been pretty cool consider he's almost certainly going to be the one riding Rhaegal next season. Would have been nice little foreshadowing since he is Rhaegar's son (at least for those who were still kinda clueless prior to it being explained this episode).

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:24 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I agree the Season finale was good. Clearly the writers worked hard on making the finale work, but they took some serious liberties to get here.

Spoiler:
I think I figured out what pisses me off about the whole Sansa / Arya thing: that the "Point of View characters" have effectively hidden information from the audience. If Petyr Baelish were the point of view character for Season 7, it would have been far more interesting. The scene with Sansa / Arya talking about faces still makes no fucking sense. It exists purely to fuck the audience's expectations, because apparently Sansa / Arya were planning on fucking over Petyr Baelish this whole time.

I think its reasonable to expect that a combination of Sansa, Arya, and Bran working together would finally break Petyr Baelish. But the whole event just seemed lazily written to me.


100% agree wit this.

Spoiler:
I don't understand the writers and the need for drama here. There's enough going on that you can make things dramatic without these "shocking revelations".

Like Jon falling under the ice in the previous episode. Why was that necessary? You could have had him fall off the damn dragon instead and have Benjen rescue him. It would have been less contrived. And it would have been even better if Rhaegal had come save him instead of Benjen ex machina. Would have been pretty cool consider he's almost certainly going to be the one riding Rhaegal next season. Would have been nice little foreshadowing since he is Rhaegar's son (at least for those who were still kinda clueless prior to it being explained this episode).


I agree with your musing overall, but want to point out that...

Spoiler:
Looking for Benjen was one of the major reasons why Jon Snow treks up north of the wall to begin with... like way back in Season 2. Jon needed to meet with Benjen before the White Walkers came south, and the writers ran out of time. Benjen saving Jon closes a loop. Its necessary to make a decent story.

Now the writers should have done a better job of Benjen meeting with Jon snow. I think falling off the dragon, then getting rescued would have worked as you said. Alternatively, Benjen could have met up with the group (ie: saved them from the Bear) and then died in the battle. Like "Hey, Jon, what are you doing north of the wall again? Oh, its important? Let me join Team DREAM TEAM AWESOME and lets do this shit!!"

There were plenty of ways of doing this without making it contrived.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby plytho » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:50 pm UTC

final episode season 7

Spoiler:
I've seen remarks about Jon Snow walking around with furs in the south and how hot he must be in them. Obviously as a Targaryen he's not bothered by heat :D
I was so happy when Jaime walked out on his sister. If Tyrion didn't suspect she was lying that's another major mistake he made. I was surprised to see Jaime riding alone though. I would expect at least a sizable portion of the army to trust his judgement and be more loyal to him than Cercei. Cercei's really alone at this point. She only has Qyburn, zombie clegane and Euron on her side. Every other named character is off to fight the good fight. Hmm, where's Bronn? Still out drinking with Pod?
I didn't like Theon's crotch kick immunity. That whole fight felt unbelievable. I understand Theon going all in for Yara but that fight didn't make sense.
maybeagnostic wrote:Are we left to assume Beric and Tormund just died atop The Wall? It would be really anticlimactic to have them survive last episode only to die off screen now but I can't imagine how they could have gotten away.
I got the sense that they fled to the part of the wall that didn't collapse. I expect them to send a raven with the news. Plenty of ravens (Bran's?) showed up just before the attack.
I liked the outcome of the Winterfell story but not the execution. Well, I liked the execution of littlefinger, not the execution of the story. Is littlefinger's face of any use to Arya?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:19 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I agree with your musing overall, but want to point out that...

Spoiler:
Looking for Benjen was one of the major reasons why Jon Snow treks up north of the wall to begin with... like way back in Season 2. Jon needed to meet with Benjen before the White Walkers came south, and the writers ran out of time. Benjen saving Jon closes a loop. Its necessary to make a decent story.

Now the writers should have done a better job of Benjen meeting with Jon snow. I think falling off the dragon, then getting rescued would have worked as you said. Alternatively, Benjen could have met up with the group (ie: saved them from the Bear) and then died in the battle. Like "Hey, Jon, what are you doing north of the wall again? Oh, its important? Let me join Team DREAM TEAM AWESOME and lets do this shit!!"

There were plenty of ways of doing this without making it contrived.


Spoiler:
Really I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people didn't even remember who uncle Benjen was. Hell at least another line in episode 6 that "The three eyed raven sent me" would have been better. But he appeared out of nowhere and died without anyone even figuring out WHAT he was.

I don't even think the closure is needed. Like at the end of last season where Margery gives the picture of the rose to the Queen of Thorns. Implies there's some devious plan going on but nope, exploded. I'm ok with Jon never getting closure about uncle Benjen.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:34 pm UTC

Re:Final Episode

Spoiler:
plytho wrote:final episode season 7

I liked the outcome of the Winterfell story but not the execution. Well, I liked the execution of littlefinger, not the execution of the story. Is littlefinger's face of any use to Arya?


I feel like they dragged out this plotline far to much for the payoff we got for it. The material that they had could have been covered in maybe 2 episodes. In the end, we never really get to find out much than a very broad brush shape of Littlefinger's plan, and a lot of it never really comes together cohesively--if his ultimate goal was to marry Sansa and become ruler of North + Vale + Riverlands, it doesn't make sense to marry Sansa to the Boltons, for example. While I suspect that this will be very similar to Littlefinger's ultimate end in the books, I think that book readers will probably get a much more satisfactory resolution here. I agree with KnightExemplar that the misdirect about Sansa and Arya actually working together doesn't really feel right because there's no suggestion in the narrative that's what's actually going on. It's possible to write this sort of narrative in a way that this is what appears to be happening, but actually the real plot is hiding in plain sight, but this isn't, IMHO, what they did here. I still think it would have worked better to push the WW invasion into this season to create some real drama in the Winterfell plot.

I doubt his face will be of much use given how public his execution was. Anybody of importance is likely to have received word that he's dead.


I found myself kind of in awe of Cersei this episode--this season, actually. Yes, she's kind of evil and diabolical, but every decision that you see her make this season is perfectly in character (except maybe for sparing Tyrion this episode) and reasonable from her point of view. I also loved Qyburn's
reaction to the wight.

Cercei's really alone at this point. She only has Qyburn, zombie clegane and Euron on her side. Every other named character is off to fight the good fight. Hmm, where's Bronn? Still out drinking with Pod?


I'm a little disappointed that things seem to be pointing to a more traditional high fantasy ending. The series was kind of flirting with some characters ending up more on the dark side, but ultimately backed down.


Random note: Whatever happened to the Red Priests? Melissandre vanished. The other Red Priestess that supposedly joined Dany in Essos is similarly AWOL. This was their moment.


In book world, there was a prophecy about the "Dragon has three heads" suggesting that three people will be the dragonriders, which has been the source of endless speculation. I'm amused that the answer apparently is Dany + Jon + Night King. This is a great subversion. Ice dragon is also awesome.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:45 pm UTC

Spoiler:
There was an unfinished story with Benjen but just meeting up for a moment is no sort of resolution to it. What happened to him? Is he a wight? Is he still Benjen? How come he's not under White Walker control? What does he know about the NK? Just showing up to die doesn't really answer any of these questions.

I don't know how the Northeners are going to feel about Arya just taking faces off dead people- seems very Boltonish.

I agree that the Theon vs Nameless Ironborn fight wasn't very well executed. The emotional buildup was great, its just the actual fight was cliched and unconvincing.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Flumble » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:17 pm UTC

Snow in King's Landing!


LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
(except maybe for sparing Tyrion this episode)

Spoiler:
I'd say killing Tyrion would be a risky move with two dragons at her doorstep, but I couldn't tell from Cersei's behaviour whether she was actually thinking of such consequences.

Nice scheming of Cersei behind the backs of both characters (notably Jaime) and the audience. Much better execution than the scheming of Arya and Sansa.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:46 am UTC

Flumble wrote:Snow in King's Landing!


LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
(except maybe for sparing Tyrion this episode)

Spoiler:
I'd say killing Tyrion would be a risky move with two dragons at her doorstep, but I couldn't tell from Cersei's behaviour whether she was actually thinking of such consequences.

Nice scheming of Cersei behind the backs of both characters (notably Jaime) and the audience. Much better execution than the scheming of Arya and Sansa.


Tyrion
Spoiler:
I gotta wonder if there's more going on there. The look on his face when he was on the boat seeing Jon and Dany going at it, seemed very odd. I mean maybe he's falling in love with her too (like everyone it seems) but I don't think that was really played up. I also gotta wonder about Cersei's line to Jaime "I always knew you were the stupidest Lannister". Is she implying Tyrion knew she was betraying them? Is something else going on there? Is Tyrion some secret traitor? I may be reading too much into things here.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:59 am UTC

@Chen

Spoiler:
Not convinced she considers Tyrion a Lannister so, well, Jaime being the stupidest Lannister isn't too big a stressed
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Grop » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:55 pm UTC

What a Chekhov's Gun we saw here.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Quercus » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:00 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:@Chen

Spoiler:
Not convinced she considers Tyrion a Lannister so, well, Jaime being the stupidest Lannister isn't too big a stressed


Spoiler:
I'm not sure that Cersei ever considered Tyrion stupid, just evil and treacherous


maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
There was an unfinished story with Benjen but just meeting up for a moment is no sort of resolution to it. What happened to him? Is he a wight? Is he still Benjen? How come he's not under White Walker control? What does he know about the NK? Just showing up to die doesn't really answer any of these questions.


Spoiler:
My hope was that Benjen was going to be part of a deep-penetration guerrilla group of wildlings and children of the forest, who are setting up to pull some asymmetric warfare shit on the Night King. Seems Benjen's style and I'm hopeful that something like that will still happen in the books. Was really disappointed when he just up and suicide charged at the dead.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Grop » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:23 pm UTC

Re: B

Spoiler:
I thought Benjen was an uncontrolled wight. Maybe an orphan one, as in a White Walker died? In episode 6 when a white walker dies, all his wights fall into dust (which is both disappointing and cliché), except for one. That either means that surviving wight was controlled by some other white walker, of that they may survive their master's death for some reason.

So, a guess would be that Benjen was a very strong-willed undead man.


Also, are wight and white homophonous?

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:47 pm UTC

Wight and white are homophonous (hence the common misspelling of the Isle of Wight as the Isle of White)

Spoiler:
I can't remember whether it's more explicit in the books, but I always thought Coldhands/Benjen had somehow been "saved" by the children of the forest and/or the three-eyed raven. The fact he knows where they are and stuff certainly means he's working with them and, given their other magic stuff it certainly seems reasonable to assume they're responsible for his specialness as a wight who retains their personhood.


Edit: there are a few varieties that do distinguish wight and white because they retain the voicing distinction between /w/ and /wh/ which are now almost universally merged
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:21 am UTC

Spoiler:
That fan theory that always made the most sense to me is that Coldhands is a wight controlled by the Three-Eyed Raven who I always assumed was called that because he was previously known as Bloodraven. That whole idea goes that the Walkers are wargs who can control dead bodies instead of animals so maybe Bloodraven also had that power and reanimated a body to run around the North and do stuff. In that sense it is strange that Three-Eyed Raven appears to be a hereditary title in the show but all the wights falling down when their controlling Walker is killed makes sense. Oh, yeah, also Brynden Rivers died last season so unless control of "Benjen" was somehow transferred to Bran, this really doesn't work.

Also I am pretty sure the books state something along the lines of "Coldhands died a very long time ago" which wouldn't really fit with Benjen who was alive and well at the start of the story.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby ivnja » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:36 pm UTC

I just saw that Rose Leslie and Kit Harington have gotten engaged. I haven't read the books or watched the show, but I've picked up bits of the plot and characters through pop-cultural osmosis. So correct me if I've got this wrong, but when I saw the news I couldn't help but think...lucky bastard.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SDK » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:08 pm UTC

Aww, yeah, they were cute.

I like how they try to avoid spoilers in that article by saying she "left the cast". :P
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