Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

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Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

River Tam
133
89%
Trinity
17
11%
 
Total votes: 150

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby darwinwins » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:53 am UTC

eightysevendegrees wrote:
darwinwins wrote:and besides, as i recall, the matrix finished. firefly was cancelled and the movie did less than mediocre business, so by default trinity wipes her ass with river tam by virtue of success. if you want to go by a different metric on who's more known, matrix again wipes her ass with river.


Firefly was cancelled and they still made a movie out of the show! The sort of thing doesn't just happen. That sort of thing needs hoards of angry fans demanding that they find out what the hell is going on inside River's head and who those Reavers were.

I can't think of any show before Firefly that got cancelled but still got a movie. That success was purely due to the outcry of the fans who wanted to know more story and more about the characters. That I think shows how awesome River was.

Whereas I didn't bother seeing the third Matrix film at the cinema because the second had been such a disappointment. And the third was still a disappointment. The first Matrix film was great, I'll grant you, but the second and third did not deserve to be a success at all. Those two films were successful based purely on the merits of the first and some exciting-looking trailers. Whereas I'd not even heard of Serenity because the marketing was so lame until my boyfriend said, "Hey, I think there's this sci-fi film out that I've heard is pretty good." It was on in a tiny two-screen cinema on the outskirts of town, not in either of the big multiplexes. It's no wonder the film's not going to be a best seller if no one knows it exists.

let's see ... futurama's in the process of four movies. family guy was cancelled then picked up again with a bigger paycheck for its creator (a hundred million dollar contract for green and joss's got what? a new show that's on the verge of cancellation).

you're very mistaken about the success of firefly. it did extremely well on dvd. the movie ... not so much. the second matrix movie outgrossed serenity's entire run. and know what else? as stupid as the matrix movies were, they were not nearly as stupid as firefly's movie title. fucking SERENITY. oh yeah, that'll attract the masses. a movie that's more apt to attracting deeply emotional emos, goths, and hormoal teenage girls.

sure i liked the shows but goddamn it, the movie was just a longer tv episode. it didn't feeeeel like a movie. mediocre is one way to describe how i felt about how much effort was put into the movie to make it feel like a movie. star trek had more heart than that. and as far as i can tell, most of star trek is fairly heartless.

so let's go back and say 7 of 9 wipes the floor with both river and trinity. pretty much for the same reasons as kusanagi. also, 7 of 9 was one of the major reasons why obama was elected president. so she beats river, trinity, and kusanagi. how's that for jumping across genres, mediums, and realities?
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Bartimaeus » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:18 pm UTC

[quote="darwinwins"]sure i liked the shows but goddamn it, the movie was just a longer tv episode. it didn't feeeeel like a movie. mediocre is one way to describe how i felt about how much effort was put into the movie to make it feel like a movie. star trek had more heart than that. and as far as i can tell, most of star trek is fairly heartless./quote]

The show itself was based around character development, there wasn't really much of a plot except for them trying to survive and hide River and Simon. I sort of agree with you about this, but remember, the three Matrix films had a budget of over $300,000,000, Serenity had only 39,000,000.

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby darwinwins » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:39 pm UTC

Bartimaeus wrote:
darwinwins wrote:sure i liked the shows but goddamn it, the movie was just a longer tv episode. it didn't feeeeel like a movie. mediocre is one way to describe how i felt about how much effort was put into the movie to make it feel like a movie. star trek had more heart than that. and as far as i can tell, most of star trek is fairly heartless./quote]

The show itself was based around character development, there wasn't really much of a plot except for them trying to survive and hide River and Simon. I sort of agree with you about this, but remember, the three Matrix films had a budget of over $300,000,000, Serenity had only 39,000,000.

you're pulling out the budget card? the original matrix had a budget of sixty seven million in 1999 dollars.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Pit » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:43 pm UTC

darwinwins wrote:
Bartimaeus wrote:
darwinwins wrote:sure i liked the shows but goddamn it, the movie was just a longer tv episode. it didn't feeeeel like a movie. mediocre is one way to describe how i felt about how much effort was put into the movie to make it feel like a movie. star trek had more heart than that. and as far as i can tell, most of star trek is fairly heartless./quote]

The show itself was based around character development, there wasn't really much of a plot except for them trying to survive and hide River and Simon. I sort of agree with you about this, but remember, the three Matrix films had a budget of over $300,000,000, Serenity had only 39,000,000.

you're pulling out the budget card? the original matrix had a budget of sixty seven million in 1999 dollars.


67,000,000 > 39,000,000. 67 is still more than 39. So, in the end, the Matrix (on a whole) still had more money.

And besides, that just implies that the other 233 million dollars went to the second and third movie... which were, frankly, mediocre.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Malice » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:01 pm UTC

Pit wrote:And besides, that just implies that the other 233 million dollars went to the second and third movie... which were, frankly, mediocre.


The third movie was mediocre. The second is as good a sequel as you could have made.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby eightysevendegrees » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:11 pm UTC

darwinwins wrote:let's see ... futurama's in the process of four movies. family guy was cancelled then picked up again with a bigger paycheck for its creator (a hundred million dollar contract for green and joss's got what? a new show that's on the verge of cancellation).

I thought Futurama happened after Firefly. I don't watch Family Guy, so I can't comment on that. I never said that Firefly/Serenity was more successful than any of the Matrix films. The success that I referred to was that of getting the movie made, which was due to enough people getting passionate about the show. The Matrix sequels were successful because a larger number of people thought them good enough to buy a DVD. Firefly was successful because a much smaller number of people thought so much of the show that they went and did something about it.

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Rodan » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:29 pm UTC

I fail to see how this is a topic that was in great need of discussion.

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Bartimaeus » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:41 pm UTC

Rodan wrote:I fail to see how this is a topic that was in great need of discussion.


And yet look at all the discussion it has brought! :(

What I said implies nothing, my exact quote is
Bartimaeus wrote:the three Matrix films had a budget of over $300,000,000, Serenity had only 39,000,000.


What does "the three Matrix films" imply? It obviously is done by ADDING the three up!

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Mother Superior » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:57 pm UTC

Malice wrote:
Pit wrote:And besides, that just implies that the other 233 million dollars went to the second and third movie... which were, frankly, mediocre.


The third movie was mediocre. The second is as good a sequel as you could have made.

I'm sorry, but no. No it was not.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Malice » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:16 pm UTC

Mother Superior wrote:
Malice wrote:
Pit wrote:And besides, that just implies that the other 233 million dollars went to the second and third movie... which were, frankly, mediocre.


The third movie was mediocre. The second is as good a sequel as you could have made.

I'm sorry, but no. No it was not.


I find your argument compelling. Thank you for enlightening me.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Mother Superior » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:55 pm UTC

Malice wrote:
Mother Superior wrote:
Malice wrote:
Pit wrote:And besides, that just implies that the other 233 million dollars went to the second and third movie... which were, frankly, mediocre.


The third movie was mediocre. The second is as good a sequel as you could have made.

I'm sorry, but no. No it was not.


I find your argument compelling. Thank you for enlightening me.

Glad I could help. :)
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Kazuke » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:59 pm UTC

Having a massive budget does not a good movie make. ;P

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:29 am UTC

Kazuke wrote:Having a massive budget does not a good movie make. ;P


Yeah, I don't understand how the thread got off onto a tangent about the money and popularity of each show. Those don't relate to the quality of the movie, and the quality of the movie doesn't necessarily correlate to a character head to head.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Bartimaeus » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:21 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
Kazuke wrote:Having a massive budget does not a good movie make. ;P


Yeah, I don't understand how the thread got off onto a tangent about the money and popularity of each show. Those don't relate to the quality of the movie, and the quality of the movie doesn't necessarily correlate to a character head to head.

Yeah, what matters here is the character(as I tried to point out in the topic post), so voting trinity b/c the Matrix had a bigger budget and better storyline is paramount to voting against Summer Glau in a poll! Wait, that IS voting against Summer Glau, that's just wrong!

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Cleverdan22 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:22 am UTC

For the people who compared River and Trinity by comparing the success of the movie and how well the movie was known, that wasn't the question. The question was which character was better, River or Trinity.

By the examples of rating the character that Bartimaeus gave us:

Fighting: River (Hordes of people and Reavers? Oh heck yes!)
Intelligence: River again (Super genius who started correcting spelling at the age of three)
Attractiveness: Trinity, I guess. She's supposed to be hot, but I never really saw it. River is not particularly sexy, per se, but she is pretty and attractive. Still, the intent was for Trinity to be the hot one, and that wasn't the intent of River, so I give this one to Trinity.

But River wins, 2 out of 3.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Bartimaeus » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:03 am UTC

Cleverdan22 wrote:Fighting: River (Hordes of people and Reavers? Oh heck yes!)
Intelligence: River again (Super genius who started correcting spelling at the age of three)
Attractiveness: Trinity, I guess. She's supposed to be hot, but I never really saw it. River is not particularly sexy, per se, but she is pretty and attractive. Still, the intent was for Trinity to be the hot one, and that wasn't the intent of River, so I give this one to Trinity.

But River wins, 2 out of 3.

I find it strange how River doesn't seem to be anything more than pretty in Firefly/Serenity, but look at shots of her from TSCC
like this one:
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby darwinwins » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:59 am UTC

you people need better taste in movies. seriously. serenity was fun as was the matrix movies. they both have their fans and detractors, but neither are exactly masterpieces in film making. they are mindless popcorn movies. move on with your lives.

go see LET THE RIGHT ON IN. the 12 year old Eli could wipe the floor with trinity and river, no joke.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:15 am UTC

darwinwins wrote:you people need better taste in movies. seriously. serenity was fun as was the matrix movies. they both have their fans and detractors, but neither are exactly masterpieces in film making. they are mindless popcorn movies. move on with your lives.

go see LET THE RIGHT ON IN. the 12 year old Eli could wipe the floor with trinity and river, no joke.

Funny, I don't remember being able to wipe the floor with anyone when I was twelve, and there's no such film as "Let the Right On In".
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby darwinwins » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:23 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
darwinwins wrote:you people need better taste in movies. seriously. serenity was fun as was the matrix movies. they both have their fans and detractors, but neither are exactly masterpieces in film making. they are mindless popcorn movies. move on with your lives.

go see LET THE RIGHT ON IN. the 12 year old Eli could wipe the floor with trinity and river, no joke.

Funny, I don't remember being able to wipe the floor with anyone when I was twelve, and there's no such film as "Let the Right On In".

close enough. let the right one in. but i'm sure a quick google search woulda popped that on the list.

i doubt you were a vampire when you were twelve, either.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby eightysevendegrees » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:23 pm UTC

Cleverdan22 wrote:Fighting: River (Hordes of people and Reavers? Oh heck yes!)
Intelligence: River again (Super genius who started correcting spelling at the age of three)
Attractiveness: Trinity, I guess. She's supposed to be hot, but I never really saw it. River is not particularly sexy, per se, but she is pretty and attractive. Still, the intent was for Trinity to be the hot one, and that wasn't the intent of River, so I give this one to Trinity.

But River wins, 2 out of 3.


I'd go with River on attractiveness as well, but then I'm a straight female, so what do I know?

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:41 pm UTC

darwinwins wrote:close enough. let the right one in. but i'm sure a quick google search woulda popped that on the list.
i doubt you were a vampire when you were twelve, either.

He got better....
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Various Varieties » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:45 am UTC

Pit wrote:Besides that, Trinity needs computers, tight-fitting clothing and guns, lots of guns, to make herself cool. River needs not.

Fixed, predictably.

Rodan wrote:I fail to see how this is a topic that was in great need of discussion.

So do I, my friend. :? Still, I shall play along...

To start with, Serenity is fantastic - I missed it at the cinema but got to see it projected at the "Unifilms" society at university a few months later - but I'll make clear that I haven't seen much of Firefly. (But I hope to correct that soon, as it's currently £8 on Amazon!)

I love the first Matrix movie. The lobby shootout is still my all-time favourite action sequence. I think the action scenes from Reloaded are great, and although the rest of the film was disappointing, for a few precious months after its release the potential was still there for it to click together with Revolutions and become as astonishingly good as the first. (It didn't.)

However, I'm the first to admit that 90% of the elements of The Matrix were recycled from earlier sci-fi and action concepts (but I'm also the first to defend that practice on the grounds that they were remixed very well into something that was, overall, new).

Looking at Trinity like that, all in all she was more a screen version of Molly from Neuromancer than a unique character in her own right. She can be summed up as "1337 hacker, cool action woman, main character's love interest, and enigmatic mystery woman to the guy in 'Detective Story' from The Animatrix". She functioned as a good character to draw Neo into Morpheus's circle, but but beyond that, there wasn't much more of interest to know about either her backstory, her personality, or her superpowers (since all the rebels able to jack into the Matrix share her abilities). Even though Neo falling in love with her is eventually revealed as the pivotal moment that leads directly to the outcome of Revolutions, she never really feels like much more than the obligatory love interest.


As for River Tam: if TVtropes has taught us anything, it's that she was a compilation of just as many SF check-boxes as Trinity. :mrgreen: The difference was that she had to be more developed, since she was more to the fore throughout Serenity, and her backstory was such a major element of the film. As for personality: even though the only thing I remember from Serenity that you might call a "specific character acting moment" was that bit when she wrinkles her brow at Simon, she still came across as being more interesting than the constantly stoic Trinity. However, I admit this might just be an illusion caused by Whedon's dialogue being generally ever so slightly livelier than the Wachowskis'. :)

So basically, it's not really a fair comparison. Hooray! Perhaps if Carrie-Anne Moss had been cast as a female Morpheus, more plot points would have been based around her and the two characters might have been more comparable?

In conclusion, Trinity wins because Kaare Andrews did this drawing.

Cleverdan22 wrote:By the examples of rating the character that Bartimaeus gave us:

Intelligence: River again (Super genius who started correcting spelling at the age of three)

Trinity's not exactly a dullard either, though. After all, Neo informs us she managed to hack the IRS "D-base"! (Does anyone really say that instead of "database"?)


darwinwins wrote:you people need better taste in movies. seriously. serenity was fun as was the matrix movies. they both have their fans and detractors, but neither are exactly masterpieces in film making. they are mindless popcorn movies.
As mindless popcorn movies go, they're masterpieces! :P

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Bartimaeus » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:05 am UTC

If you haven't seen Serenity or Revolutions, don't read this.
Spoiler:
Sort of off topic, but I find how Wash and Trinity die strangely similar:
They are both flying a ship through a bunch of enemy ships, they both crash into a building, and they both get impaled by spikes of metal.


Cleverdan22 wrote:By the examples of rating the character that Bartimaeus gave us:

Intelligence: River again (Super genius who started correcting spelling at the age of three)

The main thing about that wasn't that she was just correcting spelling, but that she was correct Simon's spelling, and he himself is a genius

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Mother Superior » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:43 am UTC

Bartimaeus wrote:If you haven't seen Serenity or Revolutions, don't read this.
Spoiler:
Sort of off topic, but I find how Wash and Trinity die strangely similar:
They are both flying a ship through a bunch of enemy ships, they both crash into a building, and they both get impaled by spikes of metal.

There's one difference:
Spoiler:
We cared when Wash died.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:20 am UTC

I was bored during school today so I made this really quick photoshop. It's not very good, but it gets the point over.
MATRIX-trinity.gif
MATRIX-trinity.gif (137.18 KiB) Viewed 5839 times

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:19 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
darwinwins wrote:close enough. let the right one in. but i'm sure a quick google search woulda popped that on the list.
i doubt you were a vampire when you were twelve, either.

He got better....

Actually I never was a vampire. But I was named Eli.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Delass » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:49 am UTC

Bartimaeus wrote:I was bored during school today so I made this really quick photoshop. It's not very good, but it gets the point over.
MATRIX-trinity.gif


I think if that happened we would have cared when
Spoiler:
trinity died

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby 1337goose » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:29 am UTC

I'm definitely going to have to go with River Tam on this one. First, she's super intelligent (she's smarter than her brother's med-textbooks after all). As for fighting, its pretty close (then again, River can kill guys with her eyes closed, and trinity can't kill one pesky computer program). Finally, River is pretty attractive , and is way cooler ("I can kill you with my brain").

Not even a contest. Go River Tam!!

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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby SummerGlauFan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:51 am UTC

I'll give you three tries to guess who I voted for.

Winner gets 2.5 free kudos.
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Re: Who's better: River Tam(Firefly) or Trinity(Matrix)?

Postby Brooklynxman » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:07 am UTC

Trinity is awesome, but outside of the matrix she doesnt display any awesome fight skills, hence fail.

Also river would totally beat trinity even in the matrix.
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