Avengers!

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Endless Mike
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Avengers!

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:40 pm UTC

A new trailer for Avengers (or, Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor trade quips) was released yesterday. It's looking really, really good. Looks like there's a new villain in addition to Loki, since half the trailer is them looking upward as they get shot at by purple lasers.

http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/marvel/avengers/

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jessica » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:01 am UTC

I really wish they had picked a different female avenger to play the role of "token female superhero, doubling as eye candy for men". I never liked Black Widow, and her contribution to previous stories has been less than stellar. Really, she seems to be only there to fill the above role, and the trailers do not dissuade me of this opinion. I mean, according to IMDB there are like 2 other women in the cast.

Also, Iron man really is going to get all the best lines.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:38 am UTC

The Wasp's power is being really tiny, She Hulk's power is just a rip off of the Hulk's, and nobody even knows what Scarlet Witch's power is. Still, yeah, there's still plenty of other female characters they could have picked--ones who actually have superpowers.

As an unrepentant comic book nerd, I'm definitely looking forward to this--although I wish they'd picked a cooler villain than... Loki.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:06 am UTC

The Avenger's female ranks have always been a bit thin.
I think the movie would be an excellent chance to reboot Scarlet Witch with some coherent powers though.

Didn't SHIELD have a female director who was in the Avengers for a while? Maybe since SHIELD is so heavily involved in the creation of the Avengers in the movie, they could toss her in the mix as well.

Other than that and and the others already mentioned who's left? Spider-woman? Did she appear in any of the spider-man movies?
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Re: Avengers!

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:20 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Other than that and and the others already mentioned who's left? Spider-woman? Did she appear in any of the spider-man movies?
No--but there's also Ms. Marvel, and... um.

Hm.

Yeah, actually, you're right, the ladies have always been pretty scarce.

Edit: Didn't Hawkeye have a girlfriend who was a member? I can't remember. Was that Black Widow?

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:44 am UTC

Wasn't Wonder Woman part of the Avengers? Or am I thinking of the Justice League?

Also, I squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'd hard when I saw the trailer. This looks way better than any of the other super hero movies that have been out in ages... I didn't see Cap'n A tho, so, bias.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:38 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Also, I squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'd hard when I saw the trailer. This looks way better than any of the other super hero movies that have been out in ages... I didn't see Cap'n A tho, so, bias.
Captain America was a delight.

Also, yes, Wonder Woman is Justice League. Ms. Marvel is... well, Ms. Marvel. She was always pretty uninteresting, as far as superheroines go (besides some pretty awful decisions concerning her storylines). Not sure there's much they could do with her. She's basically just Supergirl, but with less going on.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Chen » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:35 pm UTC

It does seem the X-men took the lion's share of the women with superpowers in the Marvel universe. Aside from the Invisible Woman, I think the average movie goer would have a hard time naming a super-powered woman in the Marvel universe thats not part of the X-men or related groups (like X-factor or whatever that one was called).

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:40 pm UTC

I'd say that's because Stan Lee is more creative than... You know... DC.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jesse » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:45 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'd say that's because Stan Lee is more creative than... You know... DC.


What? What does that have to do with his statement? X-Men is Marvel, as is Avengers.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:48 pm UTC

There's been lots of female Avengers (not as many as male, but there's plenty of options):

Wasp
Scarlet Witch (possibly licensed to Fox as part of X-Men deal)
Black Widow (unpowered)
Moondragon
Hellcat (unpowered)
Ms. Marvel/Binary/Warbird (too much backstory)
Tigra
She-Hulk (redundant)
Captain Marvel/Photon/Pulsar (too much backstory)
Mockingbird (unpowered)
Firebird/Espirita
Invisible Woman (licensed to Fox as part of FF deal)
Sersi
Spider-Woman/Arachne (not sure how this would fly with Sony's Spider-Man deal)
Crystal (possibly licensed to Fox as part of FF deal)
Firestar (possibly licensed to Fox as part of X-Men deal, but unlikely since she's not really attached to them other than being a mutant)
Silverclaw
Captain Britain/Lionheart (too much backstory)
Echo/Ronin (unpowered)
Jocasta (too much backstory)
Stature (too much backstory)
Spider-Woman (not sure how this would fly with Sony's Spider-Man deal)
Valkyrie
Sharon Carter (unpowered, though I'd be surprised if she doesn't show up as a SHIELD agent)
Power Woman/Jewel (too much backstory/TV series being produced)

Also, SHIELD was run by Maria Hill for a bit between Nick Fury and Tony Stark, so I wouldn't be shocked if she makes a cameo.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:56 pm UTC

Yeah, I had an idiot moment and misread his statement and thought he was poking at the Justice League.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Adacore » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:53 am UTC

I think picking an unpowered female hero makes sense. I think they're keeping the Avengers stuff and X-Men stuff separate (in different 'movie universes', perhaps), and aside from mutants the only superpowered characters they've introduced have been the heroes and main villains from each of the films (excepting the Iron Man films, where nobody has any real superpowers).

Basically, my thinking is that establishing a new, believable, superpowered hero would require a new film. The Avengers could be that film, if it weren't for the fact they're already trying to cram five superheroes/villains into the film - building up a new, believable, superpowered female would require a decent chunk of the film's first third or so, which is going to be packed as it is just establishing the team and story. I do hope they use Black Widow properly, though - it pissed me off that she was underutilised (imo) in Iron Man 2, but I suspect we'll see the same again, given all the others have bigger name recognition from their own films.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Wodashin » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:40 am UTC

I thought Loki was a good choice of villain. Love Loki. Maybe Thor Lokie wasn't up to high on the evil bar, but I've heard this Loki is the chaotic, crazy villain that he usually is.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:57 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:I think picking an unpowered female hero makes sense. I think they're keeping the Avengers stuff and X-Men stuff separate (in different 'movie universes', perhaps), and aside from mutants the only superpowered characters they've introduced have been the heroes and main villains from each of the films (excepting the Iron Man films, where nobody has any real superpowers).

Basically, my thinking is that establishing a new, believable, superpowered hero would require a new film. The Avengers could be that film, if it weren't for the fact they're already trying to cram five superheroes/villains into the film - building up a new, believable, superpowered female would require a decent chunk of the film's first third or so, which is going to be packed as it is just establishing the team and story. I do hope they use Black Widow properly, though - it pissed me off that she was underutilised (imo) in Iron Man 2, but I suspect we'll see the same again, given all the others have bigger name recognition from their own films.

They're keeping X-Men stuff separate because Marvel Studios doesn't have the rights to the characters. Fox does. Until the rights revert (or Disney decides the rights are worth better at home than abroad and pays them a big chunk of money), and I have no idea what the contract is like, there won't be any X-Men or related characters in Avengers-family movies. (At least not blatantly. I suppose there could be some nudge-nudge-wink-wink references.)

As for new super-powered characters, they could drop one in without much backstory. Say, Ms. Marvel doesn't need much more than being shown beating up some dudes and punching through a wall or something. We don't *need* to have origins for every character ever if it doesn't serve the story. It's not like unpowered characters are immune from that anyway. "Who is Nick Fury? Why is he missing an eye?" But I've registered my complaints with that before.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Adacore » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:44 am UTC

I disagree with not needing the background. If I see someone in what is meant to be a realistic modern world setting with super powers, I need a pretty darn good explanation for why the super powers are plausible. So far in the non-X-Men, non-Fantastic Four, and non-Spiderman films there have been two sources of superpowers - super soldier serum variants (Captain America, Hulk, Red Skull, Abomination) and being an Asgardian (Thor, Loki). One of those routes could work, but it rules out most of the possible characters - Valkyrie is probably the best option.

But really, it's not the fault of the film that the core characters in the Avengers are all male. That's just the source material they have to work from.

Incidentally, I always disliked that the other Marvel superheroes were in the same universe as the X-Men. It just makes them seem so much less unusual and 'super', when a significant fraction of the population develops superpowers anyway just from random mutations.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby TimelordSimone » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:12 am UTC

Endless Mike wrote:Also, SHIELD was run by Maria Hill for a bit between Nick Fury and Tony Stark, so I wouldn't be shocked if she makes a cameo.

Maria Hill is in this film. Cobie Smulders is playing her.

I am really looking forward to this film. The characters involved, and the fact SHIELD is forming the team, makes it look like it might be somewhat similar to The Ultimates (to me, at least), so I wonder if maybe Hawkeye and Black Widow aren't 'full' team members, and are a 'black ops behind the scenes' counterpart (like in The Ultimates). It's a shame Fox own the rights to the X-Men, because I would love Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in this film (they were on the black ops team).

Potential sorta spoilers maybe I guess:
Spoiler:
On set photos show them fighting several guys in motion capture suits, so I'm hoping for Skrulls.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Jessica » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:22 pm UTC

TimelordSimone wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:Also, SHIELD was run by Maria Hill for a bit between Nick Fury and Tony Stark, so I wouldn't be shocked if she makes a cameo.

Maria Hill is in this film. Cobie Smulders is playing her.

I am really looking forward to this film. The characters involved, and the fact SHIELD is forming the team, makes it look like it might be somewhat similar to The Ultimates (to me, at least), so I wonder if maybe Hawkeye and Black Widow aren't 'full' team members, and are a 'black ops behind the scenes' counterpart (like in The Ultimates). It's a shame Fox own the rights to the X-Men, because I would love Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in this film (they were on the black ops team).

Potential sorta spoilers maybe I guess:
Spoiler:
On set photos show them fighting several guys in motion capture suits, so I'm hoping for Skrulls.

Spoiler:
I thought it might be skrulls from the trailer! I hope you're right :)
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Re: Avengers!

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:27 pm UTC

Is it bad that I'm reading Avengers 2012 fanfiction before the movie even comes out? Some of it is pretty good, too.

I'm pretty much going to see the movie for two things: 1) Tony Stark and Captain America bitching at each other, and 2) Jeremy Renner. All the rest is delicious bonus.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby UniqueScreenname » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:22 am UTC

So I hate Black Widow. She had five lines and no facial expressions in Iron Man 2 and I see no use for her. I find it funny that there are so many male characters since men create this and would want to look at women, but I understand wanting someone to aspire to as being more important. I, as a woman, of course, have no problem with endless hot, strong men in my visage for a couple of hours. :lol:

Side note, my friend had a Marvel encyclopedia once, and it was hilarious. The specs for all the female characters were like 5'9" and 115 lbs, but they would have endless muscle and be quite curvacious. So funny peeking into the male mind.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:01 pm UTC

I'd like to see lots of strong, hot women, too - I'm a woman. I'd also like to see superhero movies that pander explicitly to women, but that's never going to happen. Women are expected to enjoy the laddish movies, but men are expected to treat going to chick flicks as a horrifying chore.

Scarlett Johansson was criminally underused in Iron Man 2. I wouldn't fault the character for that, I would fault the writers for that. Black Widow is an awesome character in her own right.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby animeHrmIne » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:12 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:I'd like to see lots of strong, hot women, too - I'm a woman. I'd also like to see superhero movies that pander explicitly to women, but that's never going to happen. Women are expected to enjoy the laddish movies, but men are expected to treat going to chick flicks as a horrifying chore.

Scarlett Johansson was criminally underused in Iron Man 2. I wouldn't fault the character for that, I would fault the writers for that. Black Widow is an awesome character in her own right.

I always viewed Tasha's role in Iron Man 2 as an extended cameo. Longer than Clint's in Thor, obviously, but not a main character. Though, from the way things seem to be going, there won't be much of Clint or Natasha (sad) but there will be plenty of Coulson (happy).

I've been reading the fic, too. We have the benefit of having met all of the important characters except for Maria Hill, so there's a lot of material to work with. And a lot of the writers are fans of the comic canon, so you can get a lot of good references and background.

Has anyone else seen the German and Russian trailers? I love how with every trailer we get just a few more lines of dialogue and a few more frames of the characters. Can't wait to see what comes out next.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Adacore » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:14 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Women are expected to enjoy the laddish movies, but men are expected to treat going to chick flicks as a horrifying chore.

That's curious, it's not the enforced gender stereotyping I've learnt at all - nearly the opposite, in fact. Women, in my understanding, are expected to just not attend the laddish movies, whereas men are expected to endure (as, you say, a horrifying chore) chick flicks. Neither of these stereotypes are terribly useful, though, and they certainly don't improve the quality of movies that get made.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby AvatarIII » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:22 am UTC

generally speaking, I will drag my girlfriend to action movies, but she loves them as much as I do anyway, for chick flicks though, they really gain nothing by being seen on the big screen, and their hit and miss nature makes the price of entry a big risk, but I am more than happy to rent them and watch them on DVD, where i feel a little more comfortable showing my enjoyment of them, in the privacy of my own home :D

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Re: Avengers!

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:10 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Women are expected to enjoy the laddish movies, but men are expected to treat going to chick flicks as a horrifying chore.

That's curious, it's not the enforced gender stereotyping I've learnt at all - nearly the opposite, in fact. Women, in my understanding, are expected to just not attend the laddish movies, whereas men are expected to endure (as, you say, a horrifying chore) chick flicks. Neither of these stereotypes are terribly useful, though, and they certainly don't improve the quality of movies that get made.

I think the paradigm I mentioned above is more specific to nerd men and nerd women. As in, nerd women are expected to go along to all the male hero-fests and nerd it up with everyone else, but when there is any move to make a more female-centric nerd movie (really female-centric, I mean, not a female under the male gaze the whole time) there's an uproar...or it just doesn't happen.

Outside the genre of nerd movies, you're right, the gender stereotyping flip-flops sometimes.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zarq » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:14 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:there's an uproar


Can you give an example?
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Re: Avengers!

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:20 pm UTC

I'm trying to think of a mainstream example, but I guess the reaction falls more into "it just doesn't happen." Lara Croft, Catwoman, Elektra, and the rest, fall into female-with-male-gaze so they don't count.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zarq » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:28 pm UTC

Non-mainstream examples are ok too. I think it's a bit presumptuous to say there would be an uproar if you can't give any example where that happened.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:37 pm UTC

No, you're right. I was thinking of regular reaction to female characters in comic books, and to me comic book fandom is closely linked to nerd movie fandom.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zarq » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:43 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:No, you're right. I was thinking of regular reaction to female characters in comic books, and to me comic book fandom is closely linked to nerd movie fandom.


Hmm, in case that happens in comic book fandom it actually isn't that presumptuous it would happen in comic book movie adaptation fandom, since they overlap quite a bit.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby lucrezaborgia » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:08 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:I'd like to see lots of strong, hot women, too - I'm a woman. I'd also like to see superhero movies that pander explicitly to women, but that's never going to happen. Women are expected to enjoy the laddish movies, but men are expected to treat going to chick flicks as a horrifying chore.


I dunno...I think a live action Nausicaa would be pretty bad-ass and I know lots of guys who enjoy supposed chick flicks.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:18 pm UTC

Same here. But generally I move in enlightened liberal feminist-y circles. There are plenty of misogynistic nerd fans, just read the comments on any nerd-related blog.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Joeldi » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:09 pm UTC

Saw this tonight. My one and only complaint is what this entire thread's been about. Black Widow was awesome in it, but still awfully tokenistic. It had a lot of Whedon's hallmarks to it, which was very nice. I noticed it was paced a lot more like a tv show than a movie too, especially with the sequel hook at the end. I also noticed a few cost-cutting shots that I'm sure a director who hadn't spent his career getting awesome results from a TV budget wouldn't have made.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Chen » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:29 pm UTC

Joeldi wrote:Saw this tonight. My one and only complaint is what this entire thread's been about. Black Widow was awesome in it, but still awfully tokenistic. It had a lot of Whedon's hallmarks to it, which was very nice. I noticed it was paced a lot more like a tv show than a movie too, especially with the sequel hook at the end. I also noticed a few cost-cutting shots that I'm sure a director who hadn't spent his career getting awesome results from a TV budget wouldn't have made.


I think the problem with Black Widow is that she's a spy and the movie is more action/direct fighting oriented. Her role in Iron Man 2 (albeit small) was more along the types of things you'd expect Black Widow to be doing. Not going toe to toe with the big bad guys.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Zarq » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:59 pm UTC

I was a bit disappointed by the underuse of Maria Hill. She was practically a Lt. Uhura.
Spoiler:
I was also very disappointed in how they handled the Skrulls Chitauri. They had absolutely nothing in common with their comic book equivalents, so why call them that? They looked and acted more like the Locust from the Gears of War games.

But ignoring that it was a very entertaining movie.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby Joeldi » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:34 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I thought the hooded guys calling the shots were skrulls, not the useless robots that died by the hundreds...
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Re: Avengers!

Postby roband » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:26 am UTC

So fucking good. Did anyone else experience everyone in the cinema talking at the same time, fairly early on in the movie? I felt like standing up and saying
Spoiler:
"yes, it's the woman from How I Met Your Mother, shut up and watch the movie!"


Anyways, apart from the sexism in parts - I enjoyed this thoroughly.

Stay around for the post-credits teaser...

Spoiler:
I had to look this up online, but apparently it's Thanos? The wiki page seems like he's pretty scary anyways.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Various Varieties » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:30 pm UTC

It really is extraordinarily good. It's pretty much everything that's fun about superhero comics translated directly onto the screen - I was hoping for as much from Joss Whedon and he delivered.

Like the Buffy season 5 finale, it's extremely well-structured so that everyone gets more than one moment to shine in both dialogue and action scenes; I can't think of another action movie that has so many characters and is so well-balanced between them all, and all the different combinations of arguments and team-ups between them.

It's also extremely funny (but mostly not in that trademark Whedon "Buffyspeak" way that some MAD AND WRONG people find annoying).
Spoiler:
Cap's line about getting the Wizard of Oz reference was pretty much the closest it came to that.

It has better Tony Stark dialogue than either Iron Man movie!

Surprisingly, the the funniest gags weren't in the dialogue, but were visual bits involving the Hulk... :mrgreen:

I often complain that superhero films' weakest parts tend to be their climactic action sequences: the stakes are raised, and believability is strained. Well, for once we have a superhero film whose best action scene comes at the end. It's one of the best-sustained action finales since The Matrix - and much better-directed than the incomprehensible shakycam shots of The Dark Knight. It's constantly spectacular and contains countless satisfying moments in both action and dialogue - most of which also happen to be very funny. I'm still remembering wonderful little moments that would have been the highlight of most other superhero movies but got forgotten amongst so many other EVEN BETTER moments:

Spoiler:
Hulk unable to lift Mjolnir... Cap swatting away a grenade... Stark getting into his Mark VII armour...


Spoiler:
And it wouldn't be a piece of Joss Whedon direction without a long-take "oner" - only this time, he gets to do it in the big SFX money shot!


Having said that, the best single scene in the whole film isn't an action scene! A standard phrase Joss Whedon has used in promotional interviews for this film is "I wanted to figure out why all these different characters should even be in the same room as each other." Well, that scene where they are all in the same room as each other turned out to be the film's absolute highlight:
Spoiler:
The argument that results from Loki's manipulation of the team from inside his cage, like Angelus in that Sean Astin-directed Angel season 4 episode.


There have been lots of action films that I've enjoyed at the cinema for their sheer spectacle but then have felt no desire to rewatch (Avatar comes to mind). But stuff like the scene above means there's more to it than mere spectacle, and it's what I'll be looking forward to on subsequent re-watches. Which I imagine I'll be doing a lot.



Something that could be seen as a flaw by some: The Dark Knight, The Incredibles and the X-Men movies all at least attempted to be themed around some larger, real-life metaphor or message. Avengers doesn't; it's just a movie about these specific characters, nothing more. It also has a very simple plot based around the MacGuffin familiar from Thor and Captain America, and the alien army are mere cannon fodder (but those flaws don't bother me because the character interactions are done so well they more than make up for it). Also, one thing I thought it lacked was scenes of Captain America adjusting to modern life.

But as far as movies about guys in silly costumes beating the crap out of each other go... well, it's hard to imagine how they could get much better.

I never thought I'd say this, but after the sheer joyful, exuberant FUN of this movie, it may well be tough for me to go back to the seriousness and relative realism of Nolan's next Batmovie.

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Re: Avengers!

Postby Angua » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:01 pm UTC

Various Varieties wrote:Something that could be seen as a flaw by some: The Dark Knight, The Incredibles and the X-Men movies all at least attempted to be themed around some larger, real-life metaphor or message. Avengers doesn't; it's just a movie about these specific characters, nothing more.
I don't know - I thought it was nice not to be having too many morals shoved down my throat for once, though
Spoiler:
I thought the idea of self-sacrifice was pretty obvious.


Favourite moments:
Spoiler:
When Captain America was so happy about getting the reference - I know that feeling. Hulk punching Thor for no reason. The gratuitous 'who would win in a fight, Thor or Captain America' and Loki getting his comeuppance whenever he went into a monologue.


A minor annoyance:
Spoiler:
The fact that all the aliens got killed when the main ship was destroyed. I was expecting them to have to clean up the mess afterwards.


Anyway, it was definitely worth going to and a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to rewatching again to refresh all the small side jokes.
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Re: Avengers!

Postby SirBryghtside » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:18 pm UTC

Various Varieties wrote:Something that could be seen as a flaw by some: The Dark Knight, The Incredibles and the X-Men movies all at least attempted to be themed around some larger, real-life metaphor or message. Avengers doesn't; it's just a movie about these specific characters, nothing more.

Spoiler:
Huh? There were HUGE references to how Loki was basically starting the Soviet Union of Space Magic. Freedom from freedom? Romanov still being 'a little red'? How did you miss that?

But yeah, bloody amazing film. You could definitely tell that Whedon directed it, and while I was rooting for Cap all the way through (his was my favourite film), Hulk managed to steal the show. Really unexpected, seeing as he was the least developed character going in. But I guess everyone knows who the Hulk is.
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