The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby SpitValve » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:09 pm UTC

xkcd_n00bz wrote:I also don't like the clueless look that she always has. I know she's going for "robot", but it should be more "mechanical determination" instead of "math is hard".

Did anybody else notice the address of the computer store John went in was 1337? Anyone else find easter eggs?


Yes! and Yes!

River looks permanently confused...

It also bugged me how Sarah Conner slides off her motorbike in a fairly dramatic fashion (in order to whack the terminator), without sustaining even the slightest cut...

Maybe she's a terminator too?

:P

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Okita » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:17 pm UTC

Is it me or does Lena Headey look like Tori Higginson in Stargate Atlantis?
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Alisto » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:47 pm UTC

SpitValve wrote:It also bugged me how Sarah Conner slides off her motorbike in a fairly dramatic fashion (in order to whack the terminator), without sustaining even the slightest cut...


Yes.

Okita wrote:Is it me or does Lena Headey look like Tori Higginson in Stargate Atlantis?


Yes.

The "confused" look doesn't really bother me. It's clear that she's different, which I take to mean capable of some emotion. So the confusion is, to me, similar to the look that Data would often give to humans acting in ways he didn't fully understand. From a mental maturity standpoint, she is somewhat childlike. Her confusion and curiosity are warranted.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby mosc » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:50 am UTC

I'm of a strong suspicion that she's actually John's daughter. Perhaps she was going to die so they downloaded her into a termie and sent her back. She doesn't really have emotions but she has memory and learns quickly which should basically create human emotion. With quirks of course.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Karrion » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:37 am UTC

Note to the producers of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chroniscles: less talking, more Summer Glau beating people (or terminators) up. That is all.


The first episode was good, the second not so much. But then second episodes are often weak, since you generally have less time and money available than you did for the pilot, but your cast and crew haven't had the chance to get to know each other and the characters so well yet.

I didn't mind the quipping, T2's T800 learned it, and since skynet had less idea where to 'acquire' John this time, this T800 has been here longer and possibly had its read-only switch turned off as it needed to be more flexible, so it had more time to pick up late C20th human behaviour.

My biggest problem so far was something I didn't even realise till afterwards:

Spoiler:
In the second episode, the T800's head has come through the time jump. But it's metal! What was that thing about only living tissue again? (Not that this has ever been particularly well explained anyway, since apparently it's ok for a terminator's metal endoskeleton to go through inside a shell of living tissue, but then a T1000 which is all 'liquid metal' can go through too without the shell; and hair and fingernails go through but cotton or wool fibres don't...)

Oh, and even presuming the T800's head has some kind of wireless connection to its body, how did the body navigate to the guys house without eyes? And for that matter, how did the body end up in some landfill? All those cops, including the FBI guy, break into the bank vault, find Sarah, John and Cameron gone, and a headless body with wiring and hydraulics and a metal spine poking out of its neck, and just ignore it and throw it in the bin?


mosc wrote:I'm of a strong suspicion that she's actually John's daughter. Perhaps she was going to die so they downloaded her into a termie and sent her back.


Minor spoiler from episode 2:
Spoiler:
It's pretty clear that she's something new. Even her 'chassis' is unknown to the T800, so presumably to skynet as well, which suggests she has been built by John and the resistance.

My girlfriend has a theory about her origin, and she's usually right about this sort of thing:
(hypothetical major arc spoiler):
Spoiler:
Cameron's organic components are cloned from Sarah, and possibly thought patterns etc are based on Sarah as well.

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Masuri » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:51 am UTC

You know, I just watched the second episode and I really liked it. I started out blah and now I'm interested to see what happens.

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Aglet » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:36 am UTC

I personally liked it quite a bit. I agree that the robots' movement doesn't show the same attention to detail James Cameron gave it. If you look at the first movie, the Terminator will do this thing whenever he turns a corner where he'll move his eyes first, then his whole body, like a shark. It subconsciously added to the character's inhumanity. In this one, whatever the plot explanation for their humanity is, it's not the same feeling.

Excellent action sequences, however, for a TV series.

Also, is there an explanation for how this is being produced during the writer's strike?

Edit: Also, I felt "come with me if you want to live" was a little contrived.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Karrion » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:59 am UTC

Aglet wrote:Also, is there an explanation for how this is being produced during the writer's strike?


It's not. What we're seeing now was filmed ~6-9 months ago. I'm not sure exactly how many they have in the can, but production of further episodes is halted pending the studios getting off their arse and paying the writers for their damn work.

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby DragonHawk » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:13 am UTC

Yakk wrote:Sending a pistol back isn't that stupid. It is reliable and more than enough to shoot and kill a unarmored human.

If you're going to use that argument, I'm pretty sure the super-advanced robot that can flip a school bus over is more than enough to kill a human, even with armor. ;-) I'm pretty sure the gun-in-the-leg gag was just so they'd have an excuse to do a "Look! It's a robot!" routine early on.
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xkcd_n00bz wrote:I like the show. I don't love it yet, but I'll keep watching.

That.
I also don't like the clueless look that she always has. I know she's going for "robot", but it should be more "mechanical determination" instead of "math is hard".

ROTFL! Perfect! That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking, but I didn't even know I was thinking it. :-D
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With regards to explaining away the emotions of the T's as "these models are better": The problem is, once you've played that card, you've shown your bluff. Okay, so Glau's T is the new-and-improved model that can faultlessly mimic teenage social banter and empathize for a kid's dead father. Then why does it act like such a dumb sh*t in all of ep 2? She doesn't even realize Sarah's remark about her name was rhetorical? My microwave is smarter than that. Pfft. It's just minor sloppiness on the part of the production. Besides, the T's are interesting precisely because they're not human. Making them more human, even if it might make some plot sense, makes the story less cool. But like I said originally, I expect it would not be practical to demand that kind detail in a TV production. You don't have time or budget to do re-takes because somebody blinked when they shouldn't have.
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The amazing headless terminator in ep 2 was another groaner. When the Anonymous Victim brings home the T skull and its eyes glow, I couldn't help but think of The Black Knight -- "I can still bite you!" When the next shot has that more-or-less happening, it was almost laughable. To say nothing of the whole "living things field" inconsistency that Karrion already remarked on.

But there were some good moments in ep 2, too. My favorite was when Glau and bad-T got in a fight; bad-T analyzes the situation, concludes this is not part of the mission, and retreats. It's a machine; it's not programmed to fight the good fight or be curious. I never expected a terminator to run, but it made perfect sense when it happened, despite being a total surprise. Good job there.

Tony Amendola's character was entertaining and interesting. I can't help but wonder if it might have been better to have him be a good guy and recurring character. Ah, well.

"What's nine eleven?" was a nice touch.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:00 am UTC

Karrion wrote:My girlfriend has a theory about her origin, and she's usually right about this sort of thing:
(hypothetical major arc spoiler):
Spoiler:
Cameron's organic components are cloned from Sarah, and possibly thought patterns etc are based on Sarah as well.

Spoiler:
I doubt this - Cameron is from a future in which Sarah Connor died in 2005.


DragonHawk wrote:"What's nine eleven?" was a nice touch.

I spent the first episode thinking "Wow. It's gonna be interesting when 9/11 comes up in season two or thr...oh, those cheeky monkeys!"
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Alisto » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:09 am UTC

The lack of humanity card has already been played out in the films. If they made Cameron the same as Arnold in T2, the character would be nothing but a rehash. So they made her different. How and why she is different will be a plot point.

My theory is that the humans decided to try to bridge the gap between man and machine. Skynet tried to infiltrate with the human-form Terminators, so why can't man attempt the same?

Like I said before, think of Cameron more like a transition between a Terminator and Data. The programming isn't perfect. She's still learning.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby DragonHawk » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:32 pm UTC

Alisto wrote:The lack of humanity card has already been played out in the films. If they made Cameron the same as Arnold in T2, the character would be nothing but a rehash. So they made her different. How and why she is different will be a plot point.

I might buy the rehash argument, but like I said, it's not consistent. She can't be a flawless teenage girl mimic in one scene, and then have the emotional range and social skills of a kitchen appliance in the next.
My theory is that the humans decided to try to bridge the gap between man and machine. Skynet tried to infiltrate with the human-form Terminators, so why can't man attempt the same?

Excellent! :-D

EDIT: rm duplicate word duplicate
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Yakk » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:18 pm UTC

DragonHawk wrote:
Alisto wrote:The lack of humanity card has already been played out in the films. If they made Cameron the same as Arnold in T2, the character would be nothing but a rehash. So they made her different. How and why she is different will be a plot point.

I might buy the argument rehash argument, but like I said, it's not consistent. She can't be a flawless teenage girl mimic in one scene, and then have the emotional range and social skills of a kitchen appliance in the next.


You obviously haven't talked to Eliza. ;)

But seriously, they could school her on what to do in a school to fit in, and even download millions upon millions of hours of school-scripts, and use interpolation to fill in gaps. ;) Toss in an ability to mimic (which all terminators seem to have), and give it time, and she could get good at doing the school-girl mimic.

Now remove this mimic from the environment in which it is adapted, and place it in a situation where deception is not warrented -- the layers come off. Or place her in a situation where she isn't trained (the cop in the gang neighborhood).
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby william » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:30 pm UTC

i like pi wrote:
Did anybody else notice the address of the computer store John went in was 1337? Anyone else find easter eggs?



I seemed to be the only one who noticed that.

I saw that.

Also: Am I the only one who thinks that Sarah and John should change their first names sometimes as well?
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Alisto » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:40 pm UTC

In general, there's no need. They're very common names, and they change their identities so often that it could just lead to confusion. Also, they often live "off the grid", so it's not like searching for all Johns and Sarahs would be efficient or even result in a hit.

I liked that Sarah's new alias is Sarah Baum, though. It was a nice throwback to the Wizard of Oz conversation.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Karrion » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:20 am UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:
Karrion wrote:My girlfriend has a theory about her origin, and she's usually right about this sort of thing:
(hypothetical major arc spoiler):
Spoiler:
Cameron's organic components are cloned from Sarah, and possibly thought patterns etc are based on Sarah as well.

Spoiler:
I doubt this - Cameron is from a future in which Sarah Connor died in 2005.



Spoiler:
True, but hey, if Jurassic Park can clone raptors, I'm sure they could find a way to retreive a DNA sample from Sarah.

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Aglet » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:13 am UTC

DragonHawk wrote:
Alisto wrote:The lack of humanity card has already been played out in the films. If they made Cameron the same as Arnold in T2, the character would be nothing but a rehash. So they made her different. How and why she is different will be a plot point.

I might buy the rehash argument, but like I said, it's not consistent. She can't be a flawless teenage girl mimic in one scene, and then have the emotional range and social skills of a kitchen appliance in the next.


Actually, I thought the writers did a pretty good job of making her dialogue just slightly imperfect. If you listen to it again, she gives away too much information. She says, "My dad's a tractor manufacturer. My mom works at home. She doesn't like it, though." Or something like that. She gives this all away without really being asked about it.

But I agree, after that Uncanny Valley dialogue, she just moves right back to robot. In fact, she reminded me of River.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Alisto » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:52 am UTC

attention people: the thread title says "now with spoilers". there is no need for spoiler tags.

thank you.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Okita » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:04 am UTC

I have trouble explaining why I like this show to my friends. I normally just leave it at "I like watching Summer Glau beat up robots" 'cept she doesn't really do that because it's supposed to not be a "Terminator of the week" show.

What I really want to see more of are the Tech-Com soldiers who were sent into the past. They keep making small references to them but you never get to see them/they don't affect the plot which makes me sad.

Also tonight's episode filled me with hilarity with the following exchange:
John: When did you last see her?
Cameron: 2 hours and 3 minutes ago.
*Short pause*
4 minutes.

Heeee.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Alisto » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:19 am UTC

I love Summer Glau.

I didn't buy the blood bath.

Didn't Sarah teach John how to hack the ATM per T2? Why is she all confused about computers now?

This show is essentially proving that the future is fixed. No matter what happens, the machines are going to come about. Skynet, a kid building a chess computer... AI is inevitable and the self-creation stuff reinforces things. Of course, it also appears that the whole reason John becomes a leader is because of his experience fighting the machines. I feel like his time would be better spent developing strategies to win the future war quickly and decisively instead of trying to prevent it.

I love Summer Glau.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby MotorToad » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:26 am UTC

I missed the second episode (I somehow assumed it'd be shown on Sunday nights :-\). If anyone would care to explain those soldiers a little more clearly, I'd appreciate it.

Tonight's show, however... Did any of that high school stuff advance the plot? And why the hell are they sending him to school at this stage of the game? Is that last semester of consumer math really going to make a difference when Skynet is sending more terminators and whatever else after them? Maybe the future depends on him being able to cite his resources properly? Dubya tee eff, over.

Also, not that I'm a fan of the federal police type folks, but I'd hope they have the budget to send more than one (admittedly cool and laid-back) agent on this case since there have been, oh, ten or twenty deaths and verified oddities of a severe range. Four-year-old murderers? Check. Human blood with no red cells? You bet. Twenty plus witnesses of someone with a mechanical leg just like the insane lady was talking about? Gotcha.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:10 am UTC

Anyone missing episodes can catch them online at Fox's website. Click "Watch Full Episodes" in the upper left section of the site. There aren't even any ads.

I am loving this show because I just really loved T2. And this show is taking that and running with and expanding that world and the central characters.

Maybe the intent of all the federal investigation and actual attention toward Sarah and the substitute terminator (lol - but according to Wikipedia, he is known as Cromartie: the name he gave to the class) is to provide for the possibility of worldwide knowledge and acceptance of Skynet.

John in school doesn't "advance the plot" as such, but you can't have every minute of every show focusing on what Sarah is doing. There are two other characters, who need to have a presence. And NOT sending two apparently high-school aged people to school is the exact opposite of "don't be a freak."

Okita: The soldiers keep coming up; there's still that one guy around on the run. He'll become important to the plot for sure. Or at least have some speaking lines before being terminated or something.


Oh, also I found this: Apparently a fourth Terminator movie that follows the timeline of T3 after the machine war starts, and stars CHRISTIAN MOTHERFUCKING BALE as JOHN MOTHERFUCKING CONNOR.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Okita » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:21 am UTC

Yeah I know the soldiers keep coming up but I kinda want them to have more of a presence. MOAR! That's just me though.

Forcing John to be in school also kind of makes sense in that at least it would absorb some of John's energy.

1.) If he's outside of school during a non-school day he'd look kinda weird.
2.) He's not going to stay home either because he'll just go "fuck it" and leave after a while due to boredom.
3.) Not to mention it's easier to hide yourself from adults in school if you are integrated in the system. You blend in more at least.
4.) It's unlikely Terminators will be floating around there hunting TechCom people (unless they are hunting the younger versions of them and if they were, why would they do it in as public as a school place unless it's someone almost as valuable as John Connor).

I'm a bit annoyed at how Cameron is portrayed differently in first and third episode. In the first episode, it's almost impossible to tell that she's a Terminator when she first meets John. This is for the shock value of course when you realize that she's a robot (and you haven't seen the spoilers). But still, they make her seem extremely stupid robot-pretending-to-be-human when she was able to at least do a half-decent job beforehand. I know that the whole point is to make sure she seems non-human and to make comedic jokes about her not being human but it bothers me.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Yakk » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:34 am UTC

Just assume she was replaying a script: huge database for dealing with a potential John Connor, less for other reasons.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby SpitValve » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:07 pm UTC

If I was going to send a terminator back in time to smackdown some humans, I'd make it look like a 12 year old girl.

Nobody would suspect!

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Okita » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:58 pm UTC

I'd make it look like the Spanish Inquisition.

BECAUSE NOB- eh forget about it.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Masuri » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:50 pm UTC

Alisto wrote:My theory is that the humans decided to try to bridge the gap between man and machine. Skynet tried to infiltrate with the human-form Terminators, so why can't man attempt the same?

I'm not sure the humans would try to bridge that gap. I'm thinking they'd have some serious horror of anything non-human that's sentient; they wouldn't want to make peace, just kill it with fire. Maybe Skynet tried to improve its Terminators to not be spotted immediately. The odds of a Terminator muscling its way in to John Connor are slim. Cameron's a pretty girl - slender, delicate, young. Maybe Skynet figured it could use her to infiltrate her way to Connor and instead she simply changed allegiances when she met him.

Of course, that strikes me as too interesting so it can't be that way.

Alisto wrote:Like I said before, think of Cameron more like a transition between a Terminator and Data. The programming isn't perfect. She's still learning.

I agree completely. Good analogy.

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby mosc » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:19 pm UTC

apparently everyone gave up on this? This new episode featured additional stupidity and I think revealed the underlying intent to show a mother trying to raise a child instead of a covert war against robots.

It officially jumped the shark for me when John got home from stopping the metal shipment and said "I got to finish my homework".

This series won't make it to season two...
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Alisto » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:50 am UTC

I still love Summer Glau. Also, I liked the most recent episode in that it is really showing John becoming the leader he will be.

I still can't get over the time travel thing, though. There are too many temporal loops and it's driving me insane.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Yakk » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:39 pm UTC

mosc wrote:apparently everyone gave up on this? This new episode featured additional stupidity and I think revealed the underlying intent to show a mother trying to raise a child instead of a covert war against robots.

It officially jumped the shark for me when John got home from stopping the metal shipment and said "I got to finish my homework".


So, what part of "they are living under cover and trying to avoid calling attention to themselves" did you miss?

They probably found hiding in the USA without going to school to be harder than hiding in the USA and sending the kid to school. . .

Alisto, did you read my theory of time travel earlier in the thread? If you look at it that way, there aren't really loops: at best there are stable points. And most of the stable points exist not because they are likely, but because unstable points are more likely to be erased... (Ie, I go back in time and blow up NYC. In that future, someone decides that the blowing up of NYC caused bad things -- so they go back in time and stop me. Now history doesn't contain NYC being blown up, and nobody notices that I even tried. And nobody even tries to send someone back to stop NYC from being blown up -- but it still doesn't happen, because someone arrives from a future that they erased.)

This might not be consistent with the TSCC theory of time travel, but it is consistent with everything we've seen as yet.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Princess Marzipan » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:24 am UTC

There are multiple timelines, but each occurs sequentially. (Or something.)

Originally, Skynet becomes self-aware in '99. John Connor mounts his resistance and Skynet sends the T-800 back in time to kill his mother. This gives the 80's the arm to start from and the T-1000 comes back to kill John himself. Sarah and John's, and Miles Dyson's, work sets Skynet back, until it becomes self-aware at a later date, now in 2012. This timeline leads to the upcoming new T4 movie, some time after which Skynet uses time travel again, with John Connor sending back Cameron as his protection.

Not sure if this precisely lines up with canon, but see it as making sense.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Nath » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:58 am UTC

This guy has put a lot more thought into the Terminator time-line than I (and probably the writers) have:
http://qntm.org/?terminator

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby no-genius » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:55 am UTC

I found out this is coming to virgin 1 soon. No spoilers: any good?
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Yakk » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:34 pm UTC

no-genius wrote:I found out this is coming to virgin 1 soon. No spoilers: any good?


Some good, some not as good. Try a taste.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:26 am UTC

Nath wrote:This guy has put a lot more thought into the Terminator time-line than I (and probably the writers) have:
http://qntm.org/?terminator


Ah, excellent. Pretty much exactly how I have it in my mind, only more detailed. I believe T4 will occur as a direct non-interfered-with causal eventuality from the T3 timeline, and events in or after T4 will lead to a new timeline which branches from the T2 timeline, averting T3 and T4.
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Yakk » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:49 am UTC

Why assume temporal loops?

They don't line up with physics as we know it. It requires a "fate" added to physics that creates strange attractors towards stable states.

As far as we can tell, if you do send someone back in time, random events will behave randomly. Sending the exact same someone back to the exact same time as you did last time is ridiculously unlikely, especially if it was a long gap -- the world is highly non-linear, and the butterfly effect means that small changes in initial state result in large changes in future state, with some strange attractors producing clusters of large-scale similar but small-scale quite different events.

And if the time traveler already arrived, what need does it have to be sent from the future again?
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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby theonlyjett » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:04 am UTC

I'm more concerned with the character development and the quality of the action sequences then the timelines right now, though. The Terminator movies are action movies first and I want that to continue. And I'm actually hoping that John comes to a point of saying that he's not going to even consider killing anybody for the sake of delaying skynet anymore. I think a big part of T2 and this series so far has been the struggle with the acceptability of killing an otherwise innocent individual because of something they of which aren't even aware. I would like to see John take up the position that not even one human casualty is acceptable and that this becomes one of the biggest factors in making him the great leader he will become.

Another timeline source here.

And another interesting thing here.

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Masuri » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:25 pm UTC

theonlyjett wrote:I'm more concerned with the character development and the quality of the action sequences then the timelines right now, though. The Terminator movies are action movies first and I want that to continue. And I'm actually hoping that John comes to a point of saying that he's not going to even consider killing anybody for the sake of delaying skynet anymore. I think a big part of T2 and this series so far has been the struggle with the acceptability of killing an otherwise innocent individual because of something they of which aren't even aware. I would like to see John take up the position that not even one human casualty is acceptable and that this becomes one of the biggest factors in making him the great leader he will become.

Hmm, I disagree. All truly great leaders know that casualties are inevitable and unavoidable. A great leader makes sacrifices when necessary, and thinks in terms of the greater good.

The leader of an insurgency has to employ guerilla tactics, and that means people die. Preserving life is important, but having any casualty be unacceptable is unrealistic. You take what you want and pay for it, sometimes in other people's blood. Not becoming casual about it or inured to it is the name of the game. A compassionate leader carries the weight of those decisions, and never takes them lightly - but he makes them when he must. Hell, John Connor sent his own father back to die. (Yes, it engendered his existence, but still.)

If this show were 5 more years along in terms of John's age, I'd say we should see a young man learning to lead. But I think we're mostly going to see the daring and the heroism that inspires people to follow him - as Cameron says, "John does these things." One thing that shines through from hearing Kyle Reese talk about him is that people love John Connor, they don't just follow him out of duty. They'd gladly die for him. I will be interested to see how they build him into the beginnings of a charismatic, conscientious leader. And if this kid who's playing the character has the acting chops for it.

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby theonlyjett » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:45 pm UTC

While I agree that sacrifices are necessary, That doesn't mean that it has to be acceptable. It's a thin line here, for sure, but consider in T2 that they planned to take out Myles Dyson, a family man, and unaware of the consequences of his actions. When they actually talked to him and gave him proof, he was instead turned to their side. While this can't happen every time, it should certainly be considered before assassination. Besides, if the sacrifice John is making is himself, then he will certainly deserve the following that he gets later. And there is the line where once you think of people as numbers, you aren't any better than the machines who want to kill you.

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Re: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Now with spoilers!)

Postby Nath » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:56 am UTC

#24991 wrote:While I agree that sacrifices are necessary, That doesn't mean that it has to be acceptable. It's a thin line here, for sure, but consider in T2 that they planned to take out Myles Dyson, a family man, and unaware of the consequences of his actions. When they actually talked to him and gave him proof, he was instead turned to their side. While this can't happen every time, it should certainly be considered before assassination. Besides, if the sacrifice John is making is himself, then he will certainly deserve the following that he gets later. And there is the line where once you think of people as numbers, you aren't any better than the machines who want to kill you.

Excellent point.


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