Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:47 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:I don't know what kind of oversight you expected from Disney but they got exactly what they wanted out of the movie. Most of your criticisms are actually some of its strongest parts and just the reality of making a movie for the global market. Sure, to you it was obvious who Kylo Ren is and what his motivations were but most of the people who saw this movie don't know who Vader, Leia and Han are or how they are connected. What you call "embarrassingly obvious exposition" is just the minimum amount of information that needs to be conveyed to someone who's watching a Star Wars film for the first time so that the story makes sense to them.

What universe do you live in? Nobody in any significant portion of the global market is unfamiliar with these movies. (Certainly not in China, which is basically what people are referring to when they talk about "the global market" in a film context. Or India, or hell, even Turkey.) I'm pretty certain there are people living in isolated communities in Papua New Guinea who know how the OT went down.

A New Hope has just as much blatant exposition except looking back at it, it makes no sense for characters to even say some of those things and it just shows Lucas had no idea where the story was going at the time of filming those scenes. The Force Awakens at least seems to know where all of its setup is actually going even if there is too much of it.

Yes, Lucas wrote bad dialogue, frequently. But even at his worst he never wrote anything as thuddingly awful (and I include the Sand Monologue in this statement) as the exchange between Han and Leia where they refer to Ren as their son like fourteen times in the space of three minutes. I was half expecting them to turn to the camera Spaceballs-style and go "everybody got that?"

Also, its setup seems to be going nowhere except the territory of bad fan-fiction. So, uh, great job with that there, guys.

The movie really knows it is the first movie in a guaranteed incredibly popular trilogy and makes full use of that.

It really, really doesn't. It's actually kind of baffling how much it doesn't exploit the fact that the sequels are an absolute guarantee - instead, it scrambles to fit things in that it could easily leave for a proper treatment in the next movie, like the way they cut down the Quest for Luke Skywalker to under three minutes at the very tail end of the movie. (How long did it take for us to get to Yoda in ESB?) Or the way they lay out the entire setup for the dynamics between the three main villains openly and explicitly no later than the forty-minute mark of the first movie in the trilogy (we didn't even see the Emperor's face until the third act of ROTJ.)

But in the end, even if it is the improved and modernized Star Wars 2.0 and strictly better than the original in every way,

Which it isn't.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Chen » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:24 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:What universe do you live in? Nobody in any significant portion of the global market is unfamiliar with these movies. (Certainly not in China, which is basically what people are referring to when they talk about "the global market" in a film context. Or India, or hell, even Turkey.) I'm pretty certain there are people living in isolated communities in Papua New Guinea who know how the OT went down.


There people in the younger age brackets who I'm pretty sure haven't seen the originals. There were people like that even when the prequel trilogy came out. There are definitely people where this will be their first exposure to a Star Wars movie. Probably more than people would expect in fact.

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:27 pm UTC

There are people who haven't seen them, I'm sure, but they're so deeply ingrained into popular culture that I have difficulty believing there are all that many people who don't have at least a basic familiarity with the general outline. Certainly not anybody who's going to be seeing the new one in the theater.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Angua » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:38 pm UTC

There were a few articles on the bbc that were specifically about how China is actually not that familiar with the original movies and the marketing campaign that Disney did to raise awareness and get people interested (including 500 of stormtroopers on the Great Wall). It might be pretty big in the English speaking world, but it would be foolish to assume that this remains the case everywhere else.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Flumble » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:48 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:There are people who haven't seen them, I'm sure, but they're so deeply ingrained into popular culture that I have difficulty believing there are all that many people who don't have at least a basic familiarity with the general outline. Certainly not anybody who's going to be seeing the new one in the theater.

There are plenty of (young) people who know of no more concepts than "Death Star", "Luke, I'm your father", "Darth Vader"/"the evil guy in black and a helmet", "heavy breathing", "lightsabers" and "Use the Force!" who simply go into theathers for the new hyped big action flick. So, yes, a familiarity with a couple of setpieces in the universe, but no notion of other main characters and their relationships, nor the factions (apart from jedi vs the dark side) and their history, nor the general storyline in the previous 6 films.

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:05 pm UTC

While the exposition was ham-fisted and JJ. Abrams was more or less at his worst...

Somehow the movie worked for me. I dunno if it was seeing Harrison Ford truly playing Han Solo, or maybe the new actor / new actress (who were absolutely superb at their roles), or maybe even all the cheap fanservice that made huge numbers of references to episode 4. But the movie just worked for me.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:23 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:There are people who haven't seen them, I'm sure, but they're so deeply ingrained into popular culture that I have difficulty believing there are all that many people who don't have at least a basic familiarity with the general outline. Certainly not anybody who's going to be seeing the new one in the theater.

There are plenty of (young) people who know of no more concepts than "Death Star", "Luke, I'm your father", "Darth Vader"/"the evil guy in black and a helmet", "heavy breathing", "lightsabers" and "Use the Force!" who simply go into theathers for the new hyped big action flick. So, yes, a familiarity with a couple of setpieces in the universe, but no notion of other main characters and their relationships, nor the factions (apart from jedi vs the dark side) and their history, nor the general storyline in the previous 6 films.

Well, maybe I'm wrong on that point.

Still doesn't make it a good movie.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:02 pm UTC

I think the general consensus among my friends is that Star Wars Episode 7 is a great show.

But it isn't a good movie.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:40 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:There are people who haven't seen them, I'm sure, but they're so deeply ingrained into popular culture that I have difficulty believing there are all that many people who don't have at least a basic familiarity with the general outline. Certainly not anybody who's going to be seeing the new one in the theater.

There are plenty of (young) people who know of no more concepts than "Death Star", "Luke, I'm your father", "Darth Vader"/"the evil guy in black and a helmet", "heavy breathing", "lightsabers" and "Use the Force!" who simply go into theathers for the new hyped big action flick. So, yes, a familiarity with a couple of setpieces in the universe, but no notion of other main characters and their relationships, nor the factions (apart from jedi vs the dark side) and their history, nor the general storyline in the previous 6 films.


A good friend of mine, in her early 30s, had not seen any of the Star Wars movies until this year, and definitely had no understanding of any of these concepts. She would have been hard-pressed to identify what movie that they were from, or that they were from a movie at all.

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:22 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Flumble wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:There are people who haven't seen them, I'm sure, but they're so deeply ingrained into popular culture that I have difficulty believing there are all that many people who don't have at least a basic familiarity with the general outline. Certainly not anybody who's going to be seeing the new one in the theater.

There are plenty of (young) people who know of no more concepts than "Death Star", "Luke, I'm your father", "Darth Vader"/"the evil guy in black and a helmet", "heavy breathing", "lightsabers" and "Use the Force!" who simply go into theathers for the new hyped big action flick. So, yes, a familiarity with a couple of setpieces in the universe, but no notion of other main characters and their relationships, nor the factions (apart from jedi vs the dark side) and their history, nor the general storyline in the previous 6 films.


A good friend of mine, in her early 30s, had not seen any of the Star Wars movies until this year, and definitely had no understanding of any of these concepts. She would have been hard-pressed to identify what movie that they were from, or that they were from a movie at all.


Did she live in a hobbit hole?

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:05 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:What universe do you live in? Nobody in any significant portion of the global market is unfamiliar with these movies. (Certainly not in China, which is basically what people are referring to when they talk about "the global market" in a film context. Or India, or hell, even Turkey.) I'm pretty certain there are people living in isolated communities in Papua New Guinea who know how the OT went down.
Not in the very narrow demographic within the United States you seem to assume represents the whole universe. Apparently where I live is more "exotic" than isolated communities in Papua New Guinea (it really isn't) but out of all my friends who saw the movies, at least half weren't even sure whether they'd seen parts of the movies as kids or not. Of the rest, nearly no one had seen the OT in the last 15 years and maybe four people in total could give you any sort of coherent retelling of the story in those movies. People in my parents' generation had mostly never heard of Star Wars before the incredibly effective marketing hit. Star Wars has great name recognition but not that many people really remember the old movies. Kind of the same way everyone has heard of Gone With The Wind, Casablanca and Citizen Kane but few people have actually seen the movies recently.

You see Kylo Ren talking to Vader's helmet and half his backstory along with all his motivations fall into place. Most people see that-new-guy-who-was-the-one-with-the-mask-from-half-an-hour-ago-right-? talking about something mysterious in front of a melted bit of plastic that was once maybe a different mask. It's probably me getting lots of practice with Game of Thrones but when you are already familiar with the story, things seem an awful lot more obvious than they actually are.
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The Han and Leia scene... it was awkward, sure. It was also meant to be very uncomfortable. Their relationship crashed and burned spectacularly and they never actually addressed or accepted that. They still have these feelings for each other but haven't met in many years and they can't really talk about them because the only thing they can talk about is their son but they can't talk about that either because neither one has been brave enough to accept what happened there.

It was definitely no masterpiece. in fact, it was rather ham-fisted about establishing things but it created the right atmosphere and showed that things between them are not right and Ben is at the root of their troubles.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Zohar » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:44 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Did she live in a hobbit hole?


Related. It's a webcomic that started a short while ago, it's generally pretty funny.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:31 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
The Han and Leia scene... it was awkward, sure. It was also meant to be very uncomfortable. Their relationship crashed and burned spectacularly and they never actually addressed or accepted that. They still have these feelings for each other but haven't met in many years and they can't really talk about them because the only thing they can talk about is their son but they can't talk about that either because neither one has been brave enough to accept what happened there.

It was definitely no masterpiece. in fact, it was rather ham-fisted about establishing things but it created the right atmosphere and showed that things between them are not right and Ben is at the root of their troubles.

It's not that it was awkward and uncomfortable; I'm sure that was by intent. It's that it's hands-down some of the worst, most transparently nobody-would-ever-say-this expository dialogue I've heard in a movie. I really couldn't believe that grown men got paid money to write that; it was like something out of some twelve-year-old's fanfic.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Flumble » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:35 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:Well, maybe I'm wrong on that point.

Still doesn't make it a good movie.

Won't argue with that. :P (going by a good-metric that includes depth of plot and building on a universe/storyline that has been developed and published for 30-40 years)

I enjoyed it though, because of the better part of the action scenes and some (others were just tiring) of the references to the previous films.

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby charliepanayi » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:58 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:Yes, Lucas wrote bad dialogue, frequently. But even at his worst he never wrote anything as thuddingly awful (and I include the Sand Monologue in this statement) as the exchange between Han and Leia where they refer to Ren as their son like fourteen times in the space of three minutes. I was half expecting them to turn to the camera Spaceballs-style and go "everybody got that?"


You clearly missed all the prequels. The worst dialogue in this film was 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times better than the best dialogue in the prequels.

I'm repeatedly astonished that J.J. Abrams gets so much flak (when he is at worst, a solid filmmaker) whilst the likes of the Wachowskis come up with dreck like Jupiter Ascending and get nothing but a muted 'oh, but they do try hard!'. It's like some people just never got over him doing Star Trek.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:13 pm UTC

charliepanayi wrote:You clearly missed all the prequels. The worst dialogue in this film was 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times better than the best dialogue in the prequels.

It really isn't. The prequels are bad, to be sure, but they're not that clunky.

I'm repeatedly astonished that J.J. Abrams gets so much flak (when he is at worst, a solid filmmaker) whilst the likes of the Wachowskis come up with dreck like Jupiter Ascending and get nothing but a muted 'oh, but they do try hard!'. It's like some people just never got over him doing Star Trek.

Abrams isn't a "solid filmmaker." He's a mediocre filmmaker (reasonably capable at staging action, terrible at anything having to do with story) who acts like he's hot shit, and he only makes it to mediocre by aping better filmmakers so hard it's a wonder he hasn't developed a hernia. He's built half his career off of copying surface details of better movies without really understanding what worked about them and why, which is (surprise, surprise) this film in a nutshell.

And yes, sure, Jupiter Ascending was dreck, and from a purely detached standpoint it is kind of amazing that the Wachowskis haven't spent the last of their goodwill yet, but on the other hand, you can at least look back to the fact that they earned that goodwill in the first place with freaking The Matrix, and then revived their career when everybody had pretty much forgotten about them with Cloud Atlas. What has J.J. ever done to earn the apparently limitless free pass he's somehow gotten? Cloverfield? Puh-leez. The dirty truth is that he's gotten where he is not by being a good filmmaker, but by having a knack for churning out soullessly commercial, aggressively-marketed pap that makes a zillion dollars and then vanishes down the memory hole within three years.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Zohar » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:51 pm UTC

Hey, HEY, Jupiter Ascending is a piece of trashy gold of the most awesomely terrible sort! A perfect pile of shit so incredibly ridiculous and entertaining it defies description!
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:57 pm UTC

It comes close to Battlefield Earth-caliber transcendent badness at points, but...nah.

I did want to see more of the weird bee-people, though.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby speising » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:38 pm UTC


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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby charliepanayi » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:46 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
charliepanayi wrote:You clearly missed all the prequels. The worst dialogue in this film was 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times better than the best dialogue in the prequels.

It really isn't. The prequels are bad, to be sure, but they're not that clunky.

I'm repeatedly astonished that J.J. Abrams gets so much flak (when he is at worst, a solid filmmaker) whilst the likes of the Wachowskis come up with dreck like Jupiter Ascending and get nothing but a muted 'oh, but they do try hard!'. It's like some people just never got over him doing Star Trek.

Abrams isn't a "solid filmmaker." He's a mediocre filmmaker (reasonably capable at staging action, terrible at anything having to do with story) who acts like he's hot shit, and he only makes it to mediocre by aping better filmmakers so hard it's a wonder he hasn't developed a hernia. He's built half his career off of copying surface details of better movies without really understanding what worked about them and why, which is (surprise, surprise) this film in a nutshell.

And yes, sure, Jupiter Ascending was dreck, and from a purely detached standpoint it is kind of amazing that the Wachowskis haven't spent the last of their goodwill yet, but on the other hand, you can at least look back to the fact that they earned that goodwill in the first place with freaking The Matrix, and then revived their career when everybody had pretty much forgotten about them with Cloud Atlas. What has J.J. ever done to earn the apparently limitless free pass he's somehow gotten? Cloverfield? Puh-leez. The dirty truth is that he's gotten where he is not by being a good filmmaker, but by having a knack for churning out soullessly commercial, aggressively-marketed pap that makes a zillion dollars and then vanishes down the memory hole within three years.


Well Cloverfield clearly hasn't vanished down the memory hole yet if you're mentioning it...

Abrams gets big films in Hollywood as he's proved proficient at reviving moribund franchises (three so far by my count - people may hate his Star Trek films but the franchise was lying face down in a puddle before he came along). He's not the best in the world by a long shot but he's good as a safe pair of hands.

And Cloud Atlas didn't revive anything for the Wachowskis, it was a total mess and it flopped badly.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:41 pm UTC

charliepanayi wrote:Well Cloverfield clearly hasn't vanished down the memory hole yet if you're mentioning it...

People know it existed, sure. But nobody cares about it. Nobody thinks back and says "man, you know what was a good movie?" In twenty years, people won't even remember it was a thing unless they stumble across a forlorn TV Tropes page. There's your moribund franchise.

Abrams gets big films in Hollywood as he's proved proficient at reviving moribund franchises (three so far by my count - people may hate his Star Trek films but the franchise was lying face down in a puddle before he came along). He's not the best in the world by a long shot but he's good as a safe pair of hands.

So, let's see, his Star Trek films include one that got good reviews at the time but has become much less well-regarded in retrospect, and one that was acknowledged to be not very good even when it came out, and which has since had something like half the cast and crew making public apologies for in the time since its release. And yes, Trek was not doing very well before he came along, but he certainly didn't help matters in any sense except the monetary.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby jaap » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:21 am UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
charliepanayi wrote:Well Cloverfield clearly hasn't vanished down the memory hole yet if you're mentioning it...

People know it existed, sure. But nobody cares about it. Nobody thinks back and says "man, you know what was a good movie?" In twenty years, people won't even remember it was a thing unless they stumble across a forlorn TV Tropes page. There's your moribund franchise.

Cloverfield was not directed by Abrams but by Matt Reeves. Abrams produced it.

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby natraj » Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:35 am UTC

i feel like people like commodorejohn must be viewing the old Star Wars with hella nostalgia goggles when they go on this kind of ranting.

i personally was pretty unfamiliar with anything Star Wars until fairly recently; i haven't seen all of the prequel things yet and have ONLY seen the original movies as an adult because of people in my life exhibiting bewilderingly America-centric amounts of astonishment that anyone could possibly be unfamiliar with Star Wars and sitting me down to see it. i saw episode 7 recently in theatres.

i solidly enjoyed all three of the original trilogy, don't get me wrong, and also solidly enjoyed episode 7!

but all four of these movies are totally 100% complete dreck and everyone who sits here and mewls about how things were sooooo much better is viewing the past through mad amounts of rose-tint glasses, the original trilogy was also just a pile of nonsensical badly written schlock with GODAWFUL dialogue.

they are pretty, they are fun, there are battles in space. on these fronts it delivers every bit as well as its predecessors. it is also every bit as terrible as its predecessors when it comes to inanity and plotholes and awful writing.

(and john boyega is my homeboy.)
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Lucrece » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:03 am UTC

Star Wars is basically sci-fi for popular consumption. It's as superficial as treatments come. Doesn't mean I won't watch them if I got time to kill, but I feel totally fine waiting for it to be released on Comcast for a $3-5 rent instead of paying $12 for a movie ticket.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Zohar » Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:14 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:So, let's see, his Star Trek films include one that got good reviews at the time but has become much less well-regarded in retrospect, and one that was acknowledged to be not very good even when it came out, and which has since had something like half the cast and crew making public apologies for in the time since its release. And yes, Trek was not doing very well before he came along, but he certainly didn't help matters in any sense except the monetary.

The last Star Trek show on air was Enterprise, it was cancelled after only four seasons in 2005, when the previous three revival Star Trek shows each had successful seven-season runs. The last Star Trek film before the reboot was aired in 2002 and was a big disappointment as well, and that was after a Star Trek film being released every 3-4 years since 1979. That's how badly the franchise was doing.

Following the last two movies in the reboot, two new movies are already planned (one is in production), and a new show is being developed for TV for 2017. I don't particularly like the rebooted films - not because they're especially bad, but because they don't feel like the old Star Trek (which is people's main concern I think). But saying it didn't do anything for the franchise except bring in some money is just not true.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:04 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Following the last two movies in the reboot, two new movies are already planned (one is in production), and a new show is being developed for TV for 2017. I don't particularly like the rebooted films - not because they're especially bad, but because they don't feel like the old Star Trek (which is people's main concern I think). But saying it didn't do anything for the franchise except bring in some money is just not true.


I don't know that you need to invoke the JJ Abrams movies to explain why the fiftieth anniversary of a major TV franchise that's still earning money in syndication and home media sales is seeing new material produced.

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Zohar » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:13 pm UTC

Well the 40th anniversary didn't have any new material produced for it... In fact a show got cancelled very close to it.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:42 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Well the 40th anniversary didn't have any new material produced for it... In fact a show got cancelled very close to it.


Which may be sufficient explanation for the lack of any new material.

If you take it as a film every 3-4 years, then that continues through the JJ movies with just a one movie gap - so the 40th anniversary movie got skipped and new TV episodes stopped being made for the first time in almost 20 years.

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Zohar » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:29 pm UTC

What? I don't understand your comment. Are you trying to say they didn't do anything special because it was a big anniversary? I'm sure I misunderstood. My point is, I don't think the big anniversary is a good enough reason for making extra stuff. In fact, I would be surprised if most of the public, including a lot of people who watched the shows regularly, would know it's an anniversary. I don't think there's a big "Star Trek's 50 years old!" hype thing. At least not yet, maybe that will change.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby HES » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:30 pm UTC

If there hadn't been any new releases for 30 years or so, the 50th anniversary might be a good time to go for a reboot. But that isn't the case here.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:36 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:What? I don't understand your comment. Are you trying to say they didn't do anything special because it was a big anniversary? I'm sure I misunderstood. My point is, I don't think the big anniversary is a good enough reason for making extra stuff. In fact, I would be surprised if most of the public, including a lot of people who watched the shows regularly, would know it's an anniversary. I don't think there's a big "Star Trek's 50 years old!" hype thing. At least not yet, maybe that will change.


40's a rather less big anniversary than 50. And having something cancelled around then seems like a good reason to not try a revival at that point.


I guess the point I'm heading towards is that the franchise has been ticking over pretty much for the last 35-40 years, if not for the full 50, and the 50th anniversary probably has at least as much to do with the timing of the new show as the Abrams movies do (though Marvel probably has a fair amount to do with it too) - though it does seem like someone looked at a calendar about 6 months to a year too late...

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby mosc » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:23 pm UTC

Zohar you ass, I just read that whole web comic.

natraj wrote:but all four of these movies are totally 100% complete dreck and everyone who sits here and mewls about how things were sooooo much better is viewing the past through mad amounts of rose-tint glasses, the original trilogy was also just a pile of nonsensical badly written schlock with GODAWFUL dialogue.

I could explain how you're wrong in less than 12 parsecs.... however long/far that is.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Zohar » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:42 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Zohar you ass, I just read that whole web comic.

Good thing it's pretty short then!
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:10 am UTC

mosc wrote:Zohar you ass, I just read that whole web comic.

natraj wrote:but all four of these movies are totally 100% complete dreck and everyone who sits here and mewls about how things were sooooo much better is viewing the past through mad amounts of rose-tint glasses, the original trilogy was also just a pile of nonsensical badly written schlock with GODAWFUL dialogue.

I could explain how you're wrong in less than 12 parsecs.... however long/far that is.

Please do. Because while I've adored the original three for pretty much my entire life and continue to adore them, they're fantastic effects driven B movies. If Bruce Campbell has been around a decade earlier, he'd be Han. They are good films in that they are entertaining, but they have awful dialog, dues ex plotina out the ass, and are only as good as they were because Lucas's wife at the time pulled them out of the fiery nosedive they were in.

Awakens was as shitty as the first four but nowhere near as shitty as the prequels. That's why it works.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:04 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:... and are only as good as they were because Lucas's wife at the time pulled them out of the fiery nosedive they were in.

Huh, I'd never heard about that. I always assumed there must have been someone more central responsible for their success. Care to expand/any good place to read up on it?
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Wildcard » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:20 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Awakens was as shitty as the first four but nowhere near as shitty as the prequels. That's why it works.

Eh, what? Did I miss one?

And as a broad announcement, I'm tired of all the Star Wars bashing going on here. If you hate the prequels, fine, I agree with you, but if you really dislike the original trilogy, why are you even here in the first place to hate on #7?

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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby mosc » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:58 pm UTC

What was so good about ep4-6? They were imaginative. Setting. They put characters in a world that was interesting. Nobody talks fondly of Tolken's dialog FFS, I think you're missing the point here. Fantasy, futuristic or otherwise, is at it's core about an altered reality. Often times that altered reality gets used as a lens to examine more traditional narrative themes (man v man, man v nature, romance, whatever) but the differences between your fantasy world and reality need to be interesting and inspiring. Star War's universe is one of the most interesting and inspiring ever created and that's probably understating it.

Narrative is mostly thought highly of with twists or clever sequencing. Dialog when it reveals more than the literal meaning. No, Star Wars is not a triumph of Narrative or Dialog but that does not make it trash, bunk, or a B-movie. No film is going to pack in an imaginative world while simultaneously blowing your mind with narrative with dialog oozing between the words. It's too distracting. The plot is like a western, designed to be straightforward in direction. Intrigue is ok so long as the general goals and motivations of the characters remain clear to the audience. The dialog is designed to be easy to comprehend. Plain language, task oriented. Why all this? Because the setting is friggin Star Wars!!! Open your eyes!! An X-wing just flew past your screen in 1977!

Boba Fett just showed up on your screen and he's got a friggin jet pack suit. If that doesn't get your imagination going I don't know what will. Who cares what he says or if he's obviously a bad guy doing bad guy things in totally expected bad guy ways saying totally expected bad guy phrases who comes to a trope bad guy end. Does the suit work in space? How high can he fly? Does that top part fire off as a missile? How many gadgets does it pack?
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Wildcard » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:25 am UTC

mosc wrote:What was so good about ep4-6? They were imaginative. Setting. They put characters in a world that was interesting. Nobody talks fondly of Tolken's dialog FFS, I think you're missing the point here. Fantasy, futuristic or otherwise, is at it's core about an altered reality. Often times that altered reality gets used as a lens to examine more traditional narrative themes (man v man, man v nature, romance, whatever) but the differences between your fantasy world and reality need to be interesting and inspiring. Star War's universe is one of the most interesting and inspiring ever created and that's probably understating it.

Narrative is mostly thought highly of with twists or clever sequencing. Dialog when it reveals more than the literal meaning. No, Star Wars is not a triumph of Narrative or Dialog but that does not make it trash, bunk, or a B-movie. No film is going to pack in an imaginative world while simultaneously blowing your mind with narrative with dialog oozing between the words. It's too distracting. The plot is like a western, designed to be straightforward in direction. Intrigue is ok so long as the general goals and motivations of the characters remain clear to the audience. The dialog is designed to be easy to comprehend. Plain language, task oriented. Why all this? Because the setting is friggin Star Wars!!! Open your eyes!! An X-wing just flew past your screen in 1977!

Boba Fett just showed up on your screen and he's got a friggin jet pack suit. If that doesn't get your imagination going I don't know what will. Who cares what he says or if he's obviously a bad guy doing bad guy things in totally expected bad guy ways saying totally expected bad guy phrases who comes to a trope bad guy end. Does the suit work in space? How high can he fly? Does that top part fire off as a missile? How many gadgets does it pack?


Yes, yes, YES! My thoughts exactly!

And to add one more thing to it—although I didn't see the original trilogy in the theaters back in the day, my parents did, and one thing my mom mentioned that she found completely different compared to all earlier sci-fi was that the spaceships and tech gadgets in Star Wars were all well used. E.g., Luke's "What, this piece of junk?" in reference to the Millenium Falcon.

As opposed to having everything new and shiny. Nice little dose of realism mixed in with the fantastic.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby Dauric » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:46 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Narrative is mostly thought highly of with twists or clever sequencing. Dialog when it reveals more than the literal meaning. No, Star Wars is not a triumph of Narrative or Dialog but that does not make it trash, bunk, or a B-movie. No film is going to pack in an imaginative world while simultaneously blowing your mind with narrative with dialog oozing between the words. It's too distracting. The plot is like a western, designed to be straightforward in direction. Intrigue is ok so long as the general goals and motivations of the characters remain clear to the audience. The dialog is designed to be easy to comprehend. Plain language, task oriented. Why all this? Because the setting is friggin Star Wars!!! Open your eyes!! An X-wing just flew past your screen in 1977!


This casts the prequels in an interesting light. Episode 1 presented fantastical new locations and rules for the way the universe works at the same time they were trying to delve deeply in to the politics and machinations of Palpatine/Sidious (Naboo, Coruscant) meanwhile an audience-familiar Tatooine is used primarily for a straightforward action sequence that does little more than introduce the main character of the entire story arc (Anakin/Vader episodes 1-6), where audience familiarity with Episode 4 and 6 would suggest Tattoine would have been a better setting for more political/plot heavy sequences.

Not saying this is the only problem with Episode 1 mind, but it's an interesting aspect to consider.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode 7: Electric Boogaleven

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:15 pm UTC

Podracing was awesome.

I said it. I liked Episode 1. I may like Episode 1 more than Episode 6 (freaking teddy bears vs elite stormtroopers...)
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