Specific Rim

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Jorpho
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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Jorpho » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:36 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Nuclear reactors don't (and can't) go boom but most people think they can so they do in movies.
But that's the thing: nuclear power is a real thing with real-world utility, and adding to the pervasiveness of a mistaken belief seems irresponsible. Like making a movie where genetically modified food kills everyone, or homeopathy cures a plague, or something.

But I'm probably just overthinking this.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby setzer777 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:45 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:There are two ways to do this. One is to shoot two half spheres of uranium against each other, the other is to pack a sphere of uranium in a shell of dynamite, and explode the dynamite all at once. Both methods very violently push a lot of uranium together, and do this with enough force to make it last a while. The nuclear chain reaction has more time to build up, because the material isn't immediately blown apart, because it's actively being pushed together. So the chain reaction is a lot stronger, and you have a nuclear explosion.

This requires very good timing, and is basically impossible to do without very precisely controlling all the parameters. So this won't happen in a nuclear reactor, no matter what you do (unless you want to count 'taking the uranium from a reactor to build a nuclear bomb' as 'exploding a reactor').


Why couldn't you surround the entire reactor with enough explosives to compress all of the uranium inside? Would the other materials interfere with the compression process?
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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:59 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
Diadem wrote:There are two ways to do this. One is to shoot two half spheres of uranium against each other, the other is to pack a sphere of uranium in a shell of dynamite, and explode the dynamite all at once. Both methods very violently push a lot of uranium together, and do this with enough force to make it last a while. The nuclear chain reaction has more time to build up, because the material isn't immediately blown apart, because it's actively being pushed together. So the chain reaction is a lot stronger, and you have a nuclear explosion.

This requires very good timing, and is basically impossible to do without very precisely controlling all the parameters. So this won't happen in a nuclear reactor, no matter what you do (unless you want to count 'taking the uranium from a reactor to build a nuclear bomb' as 'exploding a reactor').


Why couldn't you surround the entire reactor with enough explosives to compress all of the uranium inside? Would the other materials interfere with the compression process?


You'd need more steps than that to get a boom, I'm thinking. For one thing, IIRC, reactors aren't generally using the same type of material in the same quantities as bombs do. Sure, they produce purified radioactive materials that can be used for bombs, but you don't typically keep that around in quantity.

Still, the fact that it's a designed in self destruct makes it possible. If it were "guy randomly wires plant to go boom in twenty seconds", it'd be kind of crazy, though. Actually, I'm pretty sure movies HAVE done that.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby DreadArchon » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:05 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:Why couldn't you surround the entire reactor with enough explosives to compress all of the uranium inside? Would the other materials interfere with the compression process?


It is worse than Diadem told you.

Reactors and bombs both use chain reactions. Uranium breaks apart and shoots neutrons all over the place, the neutrons break apart some uranium, the uranium shoots neutrons all over the place, etc.

However, there are two types of neutrons in that chain reaction: "Fast" and "slow." Reactors can only run on slow neutrons. Bombs can only run on fast neutrons.

Excess slow neutrons in a bomb "poison" it because they are slow. Your uranium would melt, no boom.

Excess fast neutrons in a reactor "poison" it because they escape. Fewer neutrons means slower reaction--it doesn't make a bomb or even a meltdown.

Bombs and power reactors are basically opposites. Switching one to the other on the fly doesn't make sense. "They built it to do that on purpose" also does not make sense.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby ArgonV » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:33 am UTC

Yeah, from a scientific standpoint it would've made somewhat more sense if
Spoiler:
the scientists noticed some fluctuations in the portal due to the radiation released when the nuke on Striker Eureka exploded and recommending Gypsy Danger to go into meltdown (by removing control rods or whatever) inside the portal and it collapses in on itself, destroying everything on two ends (who cares about a giant explosion that deep underwater, I'm assuming evacuation plans for Kaiju can also be useful for a tsunami)

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Yoshisummons » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:06 pm UTC

Diadem also neglected(now I feel bad because it was a very wonderful post) that the concentration of the actual isotope U-235 is important to making the stuff go *nuclear* compressing 35kg of 97-99% U-235 with explosives(ie: actual nuclear bombs) is very different from using the fuel of nuclear power plants that use 3% of the isotope in second/third generation power plants today. (most of my stuff comes from either this online webpage and the easier to read book written by Richard A. Muller)

Edit: Though I was bothered how the jump-suit(armored suit? whatever) uniform for the somehow went from black(from Miko's flashback) to white (the beginning of the movie) back to black at the end.
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Re: Specific Rim

Postby ArgonV » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:08 am UTC

Yoshisummons wrote:Edit: Though I was bothered how the jump-suit(armored suit? whatever) uniform for the somehow went from black(from Miko's flashback) to white (the beginning of the movie) back to black at the end.


Maybe that just depends on where the Jaeger is launched from? Maybe Japan has black uniforms and the US chose white? I mean, the Russians wear green jumpsuits with silvery armor and if I remember correctly, the Chinese were wearing all red suits.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Adacore » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:55 pm UTC

There're also something like 5-10 in-universe years between each of those scenes, aren't there? Maybe the design just changed over time.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:26 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:There're also something like 5-10 in-universe years between each of those scenes, aren't there? Maybe the design just changed over time.


I thought that at first but then it occurred to me that the flashback scene was also back in the same era(if not older) than his initial career in Gypsy Danger. So, you'd need multiple uniform changes that are kind of odd. The locale based uniform works, though. Can also get around it by assuming that right now, they're using whatever uniforms they have left over, even if it's old kit.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Adacore » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:46 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Adacore wrote:There're also something like 5-10 in-universe years between each of those scenes, aren't there? Maybe the design just changed over time.


I thought that at first but then it occurred to me that the flashback scene was also back in the same era(if not older) than his initial career in Gypsy Danger. So, you'd need multiple uniform changes that are kind of odd. The locale based uniform works, though. Can also get around it by assuming that right now, they're using whatever uniforms they have left over, even if it's old kit.

Yeah, I wasn't saying the flashback was set after the opening scenes of the movie. My idea for the chronology was something like:
- First Kaiju event is in 2013
- Tokyo, Japan, around 2015 (flashback scene; the first Jaeger was completed in 2015, according to the backstory, so this is the earliest possible date)
- Alaska, USA, 2020 (opening scene, this is stated to be 5 years before the Hong Kong stuff, I think)
- Hong Kong, China, 2025 (most of the movie, the date of the Sydney attack is given)

And then they changed the uniform some time between 2015 and 2020, then back again some time between 2020 and 2025. Even with that, you're really pushing it for the age of Mako Mori to be appropriate.
Spoiler:
The actress that played her in the flashback was 8 years old when it was filmed, which would make adult-Mako only 18 (maybe 20 or 21, if you say young-Mako was meant to be a bit older than the actress), which I suppose is feasible, but only because of how her adoptive father could've trained her through her teens.


Personally, I feel like every uniform is probably bespoke, and they look like whatever the pilot/engineers at the time wants them to look like.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Woopate » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:15 am UTC

The movie plays with color a lot for symbology. I don't know if it's related or not.
Spoiler:
Maybe white suits when Jaegars were fresh and pilots were famous, black when it's the an underground movement fighting it's final battle or a little girl loses her parents. A few things I have read online suggest there are extremely intricate symbols in the coloring of things in this movie.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:00 am UTC

Assuming that these magical creatures are bunker-buster proof due to a magic shield or something . . .

. . . wouldn't a combination of nets, harpoons, and quick-dry cement be a pretty optimal way to handle the Kaiju when they come to land?

*fine, go ahead and come ashore, we'll just keep sticking things to you and piling things on top of you until you're an environmental feature*

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby CannedCourage » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:09 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Jorpho wrote:That's a pretty good point. I wish I could think of other examples, but right now I keep hanging on "It's nuclear! It's analog!" and "They have two brains, like a dinosaur!"


The analog one I can kind of buy, as code for "it's old, and less vulnerable to EMP". Yes, I know analog isn't entirely the same as "not vulnerable to EMP", and nuclear doesn't require non-digital...but in the context, it appears that the newer ones were powered by some kind of super batteries, like an electric vehicle.


That was a very weird plot hole. Especially because I thought there was an obvious out.

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I thought an EMP would only damage electronics that were on? Or is that an impression given to me by many bad writers over the years?

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby setzer777 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:34 pm UTC

CannedCourage wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Jorpho wrote:That's a pretty good point. I wish I could think of other examples, but right now I keep hanging on "It's nuclear! It's analog!" and "They have two brains, like a dinosaur!"


The analog one I can kind of buy, as code for "it's old, and less vulnerable to EMP". Yes, I know analog isn't entirely the same as "not vulnerable to EMP", and nuclear doesn't require non-digital...but in the context, it appears that the newer ones were powered by some kind of super batteries, like an electric vehicle.


That was a very weird plot hole. Especially because I thought there was an obvious out.

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I thought an EMP would only damage electronics that were on? Or is that an impression given to me by many bad writers over the years?


I believe that is correct. But why is that an issue here? Are you saying they should have tried to turn it off real quick when it fired the EMP?
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Re: Specific Rim

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:44 pm UTC

Gypsy Danger wasn't 'switched on' when the EMP hit. So it could have been turned on afterwards and sent forth to battle.
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Re: Specific Rim

Postby cephalopod9 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:56 am UTC

learsfool wrote:Assuming that these magical creatures are bunker-buster proof due to a magic shield or something . . .

. . . wouldn't a combination of nets, harpoons, and quick-dry cement be a pretty optimal way to handle the Kaiju when they come to land?

*fine, go ahead and come ashore, we'll just keep sticking things to you and piling things on top of you until you're an environmental feature*

I don't think nets or concrete could be deployed quickly enough on that scale.
With the concrete, are you imagining the kaiju getting buried in it, or encased in an immobile shell of sorts (like spraying a spider with hairspray) ? A gigantic glue trap is an interesting idea, but then you'd need something for it to get glued to.

Trip wires, or electrified cable seem more viable than nets, but there's still a challenge in getting them where they need to be and deploying them.

In terms of what was shown in the movie, the kaiju were an evolving problem, and the best solutions were dynamic and reactive. They were kind of limited in the range of fighting styles and weaponry that they showed,
Spoiler:
but then look at how much exposition went into pulling out a sword.
Image

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:14 am UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:
learsfool wrote:Assuming that these magical creatures are bunker-buster proof due to a magic shield or something . . .

. . . wouldn't a combination of nets, harpoons, and quick-dry cement be a pretty optimal way to handle the Kaiju when they come to land?

*fine, go ahead and come ashore, we'll just keep sticking things to you and piling things on top of you until you're an environmental feature*

I don't think nets or concrete could be deployed quickly enough on that scale.
With the concrete, are you imagining the kaiju getting buried in it, or encased in an immobile shell of sorts (like spraying a spider with hairspray) ? A gigantic glue trap is an interesting idea, but then you'd need something for it to get glued to.

Trip wires, or electrified cable seem more viable than nets, but there's still a challenge in getting them where they need to be and deploying them.

Yeah, I'm more a fan of 'trying everything until it works', since obviously they're violating some natural laws there.

But hey, we've got lots of useful resins and epoxies that harden pretty darn quickly, and they're clearly able to be impaled, so harpoons with metal mesh nets and such with epoxies would be a good start to slow them down, then concrete becomes an amusingly cheap yet effective alternative, I'd think. Plus, statues of giant monsters! That's kind of cool!

I'm not just a fan of winning, I tend to like to pile on :)

In terms of what was shown in the movie, the kaiju were an evolving problem, and the best solutions were dynamic and reactive. They were kind of limited in the range of fighting styles and weaponry that they showed,
Spoiler:
but then look at how much exposition went into pulling out a sword.

Yeah, the whole 'oh, yeah, we also have this amazingly effective approach that we conveniently forgot about' bit was kind of funny.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Jorpho » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:37 am UTC

HISHE had rather clever things to say about the sword:
http://bcove.me/pw8ze8sb

CannedCourage wrote:I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I thought an EMP would only damage electronics that were on? Or is that an impression given to me by many bad writers over the years?
I think it should work on something switched off, as well: it's a matter of inducing powerful currents in places where they shouldn't be.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:30 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:HISHE had rather clever things to say about the sword:
http://bcove.me/pw8ze8sb

That was. . . awesome. Thank you! :)

CannedCourage wrote:I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I thought an EMP would only damage electronics that were on? Or is that an impression given to me by many bad writers over the years?
I think it should work on something switched off, as well: it's a matter of inducing powerful currents in places where they shouldn't be.

Correct. Neither being powered off nor being 'analog' would have provided much of a benefit in the situations we saw.

It was, however, magic EMP made by a monster.

That whole movie was pretty heavy on the magic now that I think about it. If they'd have went with that we'd have had far fewer complaints. Because.. magic-science!

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:18 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
CannedCourage wrote:I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I thought an EMP would only damage electronics that were on? Or is that an impression given to me by many bad writers over the years?
I think it should work on something switched off, as well: it's a matter of inducing powerful currents in places where they shouldn't be.


Being switched off offers some protection simply because you don't have a closed circuit to send a current surge around, which limits the scale of the effect. Also, when a device is on, power is already moving around the circuit, which can add to the surge currents from the EMP, increasing the damage.

Being on standby (like many consumer electronics) doesn't help as much because it doesn't have the same electrical isolation involved - the device is still hooked up to a circuit that runs to the local substation...

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:30 pm UTC

CannedCourage wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Jorpho wrote:That's a pretty good point. I wish I could think of other examples, but right now I keep hanging on "It's nuclear! It's analog!" and "They have two brains, like a dinosaur!"


The analog one I can kind of buy, as code for "it's old, and less vulnerable to EMP". Yes, I know analog isn't entirely the same as "not vulnerable to EMP", and nuclear doesn't require non-digital...but in the context, it appears that the newer ones were powered by some kind of super batteries, like an electric vehicle.


That was a very weird plot hole. Especially because I thought there was an obvious out.

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I thought an EMP would only damage electronics that were on? Or is that an impression given to me by many bad writers over the years?


EMP can and does damage electronics that are not turned on. It induces a charge...how much of a charge depends on a number of variables, and the effects will depend on how much of a charge there is and how hardened the electronics are. Now, being off would tend to result in a lower charge in general, but that definitely does not guarantee safety.

You want it with an external, insulated faraday cage that's grounded, ideally. That'll keep pretty much anything safe.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:59 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:EMP can and does damage electronics that are not turned on. It induces a charge...how much of a charge depends on a number of variables, and the effects will depend on how much of a charge there is and how hardened the electronics are. Now, being off would tend to result in a lower charge in general, but that definitely does not guarantee safety.

You want it with an external, insulated faraday cage that's grounded, ideally. That'll keep pretty much anything safe.

They really do need to run movie scripts by this forum, don't they?

I mean, you just put a solution out there! Our dashing hero-robot could've been an older model that was designed with a built in faraday cage for some reason that could have been written into the story (to still function the first time they tried to nuke one for example!)

It could've made something like SENSE!

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:02 am UTC

learsfool wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:EMP can and does damage electronics that are not turned on. It induces a charge...how much of a charge depends on a number of variables, and the effects will depend on how much of a charge there is and how hardened the electronics are. Now, being off would tend to result in a lower charge in general, but that definitely does not guarantee safety.

You want it with an external, insulated faraday cage that's grounded, ideally. That'll keep pretty much anything safe.

They really do need to run movie scripts by this forum, don't they?

I mean, you just put a solution out there! Our dashing hero-robot could've been an older model that was designed with a built in faraday cage for some reason that could have been written into the story (to still function the first time they tried to nuke one for example!)

It could've made something like SENSE!

Or just a comment about how the newer models are made of light-weight, agile plastic, while the venerable hero has steel armour...

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:04 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Or just a comment about how the newer models are made of light-weight, agile plastic, while the venerable hero has steel armour...

I think (and somebody can correct me here) that wouldn't really help and might actually prove a problem depending on design.

With a faraday cage you'd need a separation between the conductive cage and the electronics within, but perhaps something along the lines of the older models being designed with shielded electronics (or a faraday cage around the pilot/control module and little or no electornics in the limbs. . just hydraulics or something) and the newer ones either not having them or having been upgraded to add more advanced sensors and electronic motors in the limbs to improve their combat effectiveness or something along those lines.

There may also have been other methods of 'older is better in this situation' that didn't involve an EMP if that's what they were shooting for as well, like . .umm. . . okay, I got nothing, but my brain's tired. I'd definitely say that if you're trying to design realistically, first you figure out what you're trying to do with an encounter and THEN look at the various methods that can be used to accomplish that, so it may be that the EMP isn't the message,but rather the 'old sturdy forgotten version saving the day' is, in which case EMP is one of several options (none of which I can think of ATM)

:)

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Jorpho » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:14 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:There may also have been other methods of 'older is better in this situation' that didn't involve an EMP if that's what they were shooting for as well, like . .umm. . . okay, I got nothing, but my brain's tired. I'd definitely say that if you're trying to design realistically, first you figure out what you're trying to do with an encounter and THEN look at the various methods that can be used to accomplish that, so it may be that the EMP isn't the message,but rather the 'old sturdy forgotten version saving the day' is, in which case EMP is one of several options (none of which I can think of ATM)
I liked the Battlestar Galactica solution, in which the Galactica's computer hardware was too simple to be vulnerable to the kind of computer viruses that could wipe out everything else – but no, invading aliens being able to transmit a computer virus would just be silly.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:55 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Or just a comment about how the newer models are made of light-weight, agile plastic, while the venerable hero has steel armour...

I think (and somebody can correct me here) that wouldn't really help and might actually prove a problem depending on design.

With a faraday cage you'd need a separation between the conductive cage and the electronics within, but perhaps something along the lines of the older models being designed with shielded electronics (or a faraday cage around the pilot/control module and little or no electornics in the limbs. . just hydraulics or something) and the newer ones either not having them or having been upgraded to add more advanced sensors and electronic motors in the limbs to improve their combat effectiveness or something along those lines.


If you have a large conductive plate wrapped around your electronics you'll usually have it isolated - adding a large capacitor into your circuit is unlikely to improve performance, and is a clear safety hazard to anyone working on the shell...

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:59 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
learsfool wrote:There may also have been other methods of 'older is better in this situation' that didn't involve an EMP if that's what they were shooting for as well, like . .umm. . . okay, I got nothing, but my brain's tired. I'd definitely say that if you're trying to design realistically, first you figure out what you're trying to do with an encounter and THEN look at the various methods that can be used to accomplish that, so it may be that the EMP isn't the message,but rather the 'old sturdy forgotten version saving the day' is, in which case EMP is one of several options (none of which I can think of ATM)
I liked the Battlestar Galactica solution, in which the Galactica's computer hardware was too simple to be vulnerable to the kind of computer viruses that could wipe out everything else – but no, invading aliens being able to transmit a computer virus would just be silly.


Strictly speaking, it wasn't the simplicity of the Galactica's computers that made them hack-proof, but the lack of network connections - when they networked the machines together, the Cylons immediately began hacking. It's not entirely clear why plugging in network cables made them vulnerable.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:42 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:EMP can and does damage electronics that are not turned on. It induces a charge...how much of a charge depends on a number of variables, and the effects will depend on how much of a charge there is and how hardened the electronics are. Now, being off would tend to result in a lower charge in general, but that definitely does not guarantee safety.

You want it with an external, insulated faraday cage that's grounded, ideally. That'll keep pretty much anything safe.

They really do need to run movie scripts by this forum, don't they?

I mean, you just put a solution out there! Our dashing hero-robot could've been an older model that was designed with a built in faraday cage for some reason that could have been written into the story (to still function the first time they tried to nuke one for example!)

It could've made something like SENSE!


I seriously feel there should be a role for a fact-checker in major movies. Seriously, you've got massive, multi-million dollar budgets, make some space for a $50k/yr job or something for a guy who just goes over the script and googles/wikipedias stuff. Granted, I could catch a *lot* of plot holes simply by casually reading through a script, but it wouldn't be that hard to comprehensively review stuff and replace it with stuff that fills the same narrative function but doesn't make the audience cringe.

In this case, all you really need is a reason why they're not vulnerable to EMP. There's at least half a dozen ways you could concisely explain that. Better yet, you could lead up to it earlier in the plot, thus not requiring exposition mid-action. Have the annoying guy making fun of how old Gypsy Danger is mention all the electronic sensors the new ones have that GD doesn't or something. Maybe mock the fact that GD was built back when nuclear war was still considered relevant.

Stand-alone computers having complete protection against hacking does kind of make sense if you're using wifi, etc, but with cables...no, it really doesn't make sense. Worse, I'm pretty sure they showed actual cables. *shrug* Again, could totally be solved if the only way they have to network the systems is using some sort of transmissions that would be very reasonably more hackable than, yknow, not transmitting.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:07 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:In this case, all you really need is a reason why they're not vulnerable to EMP. There's at least half a dozen ways you could concisely explain that. Better yet, you could lead up to it earlier in the plot, thus not requiring exposition mid-action. Have the annoying guy making fun of how old Gypsy Danger is mention all the electronic sensors the new ones have that GD doesn't or something. Maybe mock the fact that GD was built back when nuclear war was still considered relevant. .

This.

You nailed a point that was nagging at me but really hadn't let percolate to the surface properly. Even the way it was brought out in the movie was kind of . . . jarring? Slapdash?

If somebody thought this was a useful plot point, it could EASILY have been integral to the design of the actual participants of the plot rather than just some random thrown out bit of exposition that made my brain get all squidgy.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:44 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I seriously feel there should be a role for a fact-checker in major movies. Seriously, you've got massive, multi-million dollar budgets, make some space for a $50k/yr job or something for a guy who just goes over the script and googles/wikipedias stuff. Granted, I could catch a *lot* of plot holes simply by casually reading through a script, but it wouldn't be that hard to comprehensively review stuff and replace it with stuff that fills the same narrative function but doesn't make the audience cringe.


There's the well-known position of "consultant" - someone you call in to look over the script, to tell you all the places where it doesn't make sense, to offer you various alternatives, and then to be completely ignored except possibly for being mentioned in the publicity materials as you make the movie according to the original script.

Why? Because Hollywood thinks (possibly correctly) that audiences don't really care about accuracy or internal consistency so long as it looks good at the moment they watch it...

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:59 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:There's the well-known position of "consultant" - someone you call in to look over the script, to tell you all the places where it doesn't make sense, to offer you various alternatives, and then to be completely ignored except possibly for being mentioned in the publicity materials as you make the movie according to the original script.

Why? Because Hollywood thinks (possibly correctly) that audiences don't really care about accuracy or internal consistency so long as it looks good at the moment they watch it...

That doesn't mean that not having stupidity (unless it's comedic) is a BAD thing, it's always better to be plausible than ridiculous.

Just imagine if (to use a more obvious example) a movie like Prometheus had somebody who actually knew a thing or two about biology involved in the script and production. It could have been both more realistic and FAR more interesting than what we saw. Seriously, I could out-amazing-critter them with plausible variants of actual-real-things with one arm and most of my neurons behind my back, and I'm a hack.

Obviously, the Kaiju violate some pretty crucial laws of physics and biology, but even there it's not impossible to conceive of somewhat smaller but more plausible, realistic, agile, and dangerous variants which could easily have made the movie better instead of worse. Sure, they wouldn't be skyscraper-sized, but they could still be freakin' huge, especially if the were 'designed' and therefore could have structural augmentations that our classic T-Rex never benefited from. :) They'd also be a nightmare for a B-52 or even B-1 to take out, unlike something as big as a Kaiju.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby ArgonV » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:22 am UTC

Pacific Rim wasn't a serious movie to begin with, it's more of a fun movie. In those cases, suspension of disbelief comes into play for me ;)

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:12 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:There's the well-known position of "consultant" - someone you call in to look over the script, to tell you all the places where it doesn't make sense, to offer you various alternatives, and then to be completely ignored except possibly for being mentioned in the publicity materials as you make the movie according to the original script.

Why? Because Hollywood thinks (possibly correctly) that audiences don't really care about accuracy or internal consistency so long as it looks good at the moment they watch it...

That doesn't mean that not having stupidity (unless it's comedic) is a BAD thing, it's always better to be plausible than ridiculous.

Just imagine if (to use a more obvious example) a movie like Prometheus had somebody who actually knew a thing or two about biology involved in the script and production. It could have been both more realistic and FAR more interesting than what we saw. Seriously, I could out-amazing-critter them with plausible variants of actual-real-things with one arm and most of my neurons behind my back, and I'm a hack.

Obviously, the Kaiju violate some pretty crucial laws of physics and biology, but even there it's not impossible to conceive of somewhat smaller but more plausible, realistic, agile, and dangerous variants which could easily have made the movie better instead of worse. Sure, they wouldn't be skyscraper-sized, but they could still be freakin' huge, especially if the were 'designed' and therefore could have structural augmentations that our classic T-Rex never benefited from. :) They'd also be a nightmare for a B-52 or even B-1 to take out, unlike something as big as a Kaiju.


The trouble with unfamiliar yet amazing real things is that taking the time to explain them to the audience takes away from the rest of the movie, while saying an unexpected supernova threatened to wipe out an inhabited planet leaves most of the audience thinking they understand, and those who have any clue about astronomy spluttering in total disbelief (either help has less than 10 minutes to get there between the star exploding and the planet getting blasted, or it would take years for the wavefront to arrive, and you'd barely notice the effects when it did anyway); on the other hand, explaining about a more exotic, but more plot relevant phenomenon would leave most of the audience thinking "they made that up!" and the few astronomers grinning, and mean you could spend less time running away from bigger ice monsters...

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:57 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:The trouble with unfamiliar yet amazing real things is that taking the time to explain them to the audience takes away from the rest of the movie, while saying an unexpected supernova threatened to wipe out an inhabited planet leaves most of the audience thinking they understand, and those who have any clue about astronomy spluttering in total disbelief (either help has less than 10 minutes to get there between the star exploding and the planet getting blasted, or it would take years for the wavefront to arrive, and you'd barely notice the effects when it did anyway); on the other hand, explaining about a more exotic, but more plot relevant phenomenon would leave most of the audience thinking "they made that up!" and the few astronomers grinning, and mean you could spend less time running away from bigger ice monsters...

I'm not talking about those specific moments where conventional wisdom and reality are directly at odds with each other, just the idea of modeling things based on real, biological creatures and processes.

I mean, the critters in these movies are BORING compared to parasitic wasps, snuffbox clams, vinegaroons, portia spiders, robber flies, twisties (Strepsiptera), mad hatterpillars, epomis beetles, Pseudacteon (decapitating phorid flies), tiger beetles, mantidflies, horsehair worms, spitting spiders, siphonophores, crawling crinoids, beroid comb jellies, red lipped batfish, stargazers, bobbit worms, box jellies, sacculina Labidiaster annulatus, pigbutt worms, cordyceps, sea elephants, mimic octopi, ant-mimic jumpers, pangolins, uloborid spiders, vampire finches, velvet worms, hellbenders, sidegill slugs, Cymothoa Exigua, wolbachia, and so on.

Movie monsters could be both more realistic AND more interesting. You don't have to just absurdly extrapolate with a single creature, just understand how amazingly fucked up nature really is.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby setzer777 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:22 am UTC

Wouldn't having monsters like that make it even less plausible that giant humanoid mechs are the most practical solution?
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Re: Specific Rim

Postby learsfool » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:33 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:Wouldn't having monsters like that make it even less plausible that giant humanoid mechs are the most practical solution?

Can it have BEEN less plausible? ;)

There would be a viable middle ground . . . something a couple of times the size of a T-rex, still amazingly scary, very fast and agile and extremely hard to target. That sort of approach could make a similarly sized battle-mech at least somewhat plausible depending on how it's implemented.

Some of the visuals wouldn't have been as good, but that opens up something better too!

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby charliepanayi » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:50 am UTC

There'll be a sequel in 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HndBiSyOrK4
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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Lazar » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:46 am UTC

I'm pleasantly surprised – I guess the international take was big enough to justify a sequel after all. Zak Penn's record is… not the most impressive, but if del Toro's co-writing and directing, it should be good.
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Re: Specific Rim

Postby Jorpho » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

It seems to me like studios were not quite so transparent about planning their release schedules three years in advance as they used to be.

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Re: Specific Rim

Postby mosc » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:48 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:There's the well-known position of "consultant" - someone you call in to look over the script, to tell you all the places where it doesn't make sense, to offer you various alternatives, and then to be completely ignored except possibly for being mentioned in the publicity materials as you make the movie according to the original script.

Why? Because Hollywood thinks (possibly correctly) that audiences don't really care about accuracy or internal consistency so long as it looks good at the moment they watch it...

This is pretty true. A lot of the realistic touches put into movies interfere with the focus on character, conflict, tension, and resolution. We like our stories idealized so we can more directly watch the narrative.

Facts for the most part get in the way. They either block the narrative with harder to follow cause and effect or they break the illusion of reality presented in the movie. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you think of it in that light, it's not really that surprising if most movies can't find the right balance.

We don't want indy shot into the air in a fridge by an atomic bomb blast, but we love us some physics defying technology or some terrifyingly impossible life forms.
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