Fifty Shades of Grey

[dhokarena56]

I'll admit: I haven't actually read this piece of work, mostly because I'm a lately adolescent guy, not a sexually repressed soccer mom. I thought, though, a discussion thread might be interesting.

[LaserGuy]

I'll admit: I haven't actually read this piece of work, mostly because I'm a lately adolescent guy, not a sexually repressed soccer mom. I thought, though, a discussion thread might be interesting.

Probably not the best way to encourage people to respond to your thread.

I haven't read it myself, but FWIW, people who like erotic/pornographic materials are not necessarily sexually repressed.

[Sleeper]

By coincidence, I just found a copy of this book lying around in a semi-public place and read the last few pages. I didn't find it very impressive. The writing seems sort of amateurish.

[SecondTalon]

I'll admit: I haven't actually read this piece of work, mostly because I'm a lately adolescent guy, not a sexually repressed soccer mom. I thought, though, a discussion thread might be interesting.

Probably not the best way to encourage people to respond to your thread.

I.. can do nothing but agree. As is, the only reason I see that dhokarena56 wanted to start this thread was... to have their name as a thread starter. No points are addressed, no arguments made, no hypothesis put forward, no question being asked.

"A thing exists, so discussion of the thing must also exist" when... frankly, no. Discussion does not have to exist. We can safely ignore a thing. It's fine.

[kinigget]

And "fifty shades of gray" is probably a thing that should be ignored if the quotes making their way around tumblr are anything to go by.

[Sleeper]

I didn't find it very impressive. The writing seems sort of amateurish.

A-ha! This explains why:

Fan-Fiction Roots: Ms. James initially wrote her erotica books as a work of "Twilight" fan fiction with vampire Edward as the CEO and Bella as his sex slave.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj

Wikipedia says she published it online under the name "Snowqueen Icedragon" on Twilight fanfic sites.

[RoberII]

I, for one, believe that Snowqueen Icedragon will be remembered along with the other great authors. The future will discuss Hemingway, T.S. Eliot, Shakespeare and Snowqueen Icedragon.


I heard it's horribly written, but pretty decent for the genre. I am not surprised.

[folkhero]

Isn't Snowqueen Icedragon a rather redundant name? I mean if you are a Snowqueen that is also a dragon, what other type of dragon could you be?

[ahammel]

I heard it's horribly written, but pretty decent for the genre.

What the actual hell does this mean? "This books is horribly written but otherwise pretty decent" sounds an awful lot to me like "this computer will explode if you try to turn it on, but is otherwise pretty good".

Isn't Snowqueen Icedragon a rather redundant name? I mean if you are a Snowqueen that is also a dragon, what other type of dragon could you be?

A Snowdragon. Or maybe a Winddragon, or a Frostdragon, or a Carrefusestostartdragon, or a Heartattackinducedbyshovellingthewalkdragon.

[folkhero]

Isn't Snowqueen Icedragon a rather redundant name? I mean if you are a Snowqueen that is also a dragon, what other type of dragon could you be?

A Snowdragon. Or maybe a Winddragon, or a Frostdragon, or a Carrefusestostartdragon, or a Heartattackinducedbyshovellingthewalkdragon.

Snowdragons and Frostdragons are subsets of Icedragons. What do you think snow and frost are made out of? I guess she could be a Carrefusestostartdragon, but I'm pretty sure Winddragon is something you just made up.

[AvatarIII]

I heard it's horribly written, but pretty decent for the genre.

What the actual hell does this mean? "This books is horribly written but otherwise pretty decent" sounds an awful lot to me like "this computer will explode if you try to turn it on, but is otherwise pretty good".

Sounds more like. "this is a pretty shitty computer, but it's the best you can get for under X amount of money" for example.

[ahammel]

I heard it's horribly written, but pretty decent for the genre.

What the actual hell does this mean? "This books is horribly written but otherwise pretty decent" sounds an awful lot to me like "this computer will explode if you try to turn it on, but is otherwise pretty good".

Sounds more like. "this is a pretty shitty computer, but it's the best you can get for under X amount of money" for example.

The implication of that would be that there's no such thing as well-written erotic fiction. I'm not a fan of the genre, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.

[AvatarIII]

I heard it's horribly written, but pretty decent for the genre.

What the actual hell does this mean? "This books is horribly written but otherwise pretty decent" sounds an awful lot to me like "this computer will explode if you try to turn it on, but is otherwise pretty good".

Sounds more like. "this is a pretty shitty computer, but it's the best you can get for under X amount of money" for example.

The implication of that would be that there's no such thing as well-written erotic fiction. I'm not a fan of the genre, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.

I'm sure erotic fiction could be good and probably is in some cases, I was just deciphering what I think RoberII was implying. I have no idea of the quality of Fifty Shades, but I suppose it must be alright if it got published was successful, and got 2 sequels when so much other erotic fiction just sits on the internet and is mostly ignored.

[ameretrifle]

Ayn Rand must be awesome. She got several books published, and people are talking about them to this day. Even academics!

Howard Stern must be highly intellectual. How many years has he had that radio show?

I keep seeing some "Snooki" person in the magazines, if they're reporting on her, she must be important, right?

Twilight got published. It can't be that bad...

Fill in your personal pet peeve here, but exposure/popularity !== quality. If you don't think so, well, I suspect a peek at an excerpt of this work might be exactly the thing to show you the light...

My analysis? It got attention because it was Twilight fic, and Twilight is popular, and then the person decided to try to make cash off it, and then the media thought pervy barely-not-Twific was an interesting story, which led to more people reading it out of curiosity. Bring up any non-fanfiction.net archive, filter for NC-17, I'll bet you good money the first thing that comes up will be of better or equal quality. Sort by popularity or reviews, and I'll bet you even more money it'll be straight-out better. Hell, I'd almost be willing to bet you could name me any two fictional characters and I'd be able to find fic of them that's better. (Might have to cheat by writing it if you got all smartass, though.) But that's all free, and much less of it is book-length (which of course is all that matters), and the stuff that is would get you in crazy legal hot water if you tried to distribute it for money (unless you file off the serial numbers like this person, but that requires that it be an AU fic to begin with and/or you have the time and resources to edit it and publish, that you be willing to dare the legal consequences, and that you have the motivation and don't think it's ethically dubious), and you aren't going to hear about how "popular" it is unless it's making some money. Who cares about a few hundred thousand hits? The sources are biased thus.

I have an axe to grind about shitty fanfiction getting all the attention and good stuff getting zero, and about Twilight to begin with, but even so, I'm really pretty sure popularity still does not in and of itself entail quality.

I'm also pretty sure "horribly written, but decent for the genre" inescapably implies that most other erotic fiction (or perhaps some subgenre-- BDSM fiction? fanfiction?) is even more horribly written in some way. Frankly, I view that as the dismissable ramblings of someone who's never read any pr0n outside their grandmother's Harlequins, but hopefully they meant something other than what they said...

[ahammel]

...Hell, I'd almost be willing to bet you could name me any two fictional characters and I'd be able to find fic of them that's better. (Might have to cheat by writing it if you got all smartass, though.)...

Hiro Protagonist and Hercule Poirot. Your move.

I was going to say "Sherlock Holmes and Cthulu" (currently adjacent on my bookshelf), but then I remembered that holy shit, it's been done! (PDF) Not porn, but I would've accepted it.

But that's all free, and much less of it is book-length (which of course is all that matters)...

Indeed, the only remarkable thing about these books seems to be that there's goddamned 1500 pages of them. I would think that somewhere before the 1000 page mark, even the most brain-damaged of fans would start asking themselves how much Edward/Bella fanfic they actually need.

[quantumcat42]

Quality.

[Woopate]

I couldn't stop laughing. NSFW that above link, in any case.

[mercutio_stencil]

Ayn Rand must be awesome. She got several books published, and people are talking about them to this day. Even academics!

Howard Stern must be highly intellectual. How many years has he had that radio show?

I keep seeing some "Snooki" person in the magazines, if they're reporting on her, she must be important, right?

Twilight got published. It can't be that bad...

Fill in your personal pet peeve here, but exposure/popularity !== quality. If you don't think so, well, I suspect a peek at an excerpt of this work might be exactly the thing to show you the light...

My analysis? It got attention because it was Twilight fic, and Twilight is popular, and then the person decided to try to make cash off it, and then the media thought pervy barely-not-Twific was an interesting story, which led to more people reading it out of curiosity. Bring up any non-fanfiction.net archive, filter for NC-17, I'll bet you good money the first thing that comes up will be of better or equal quality. Sort by popularity or reviews, and I'll bet you even more money it'll be straight-out better. Hell, I'd almost be willing to bet you could name me any two fictional characters and I'd be able to find fic of them that's better. (Might have to cheat by writing it if you got all smartass, though.) But that's all free, and much less of it is book-length (which of course is all that matters), and the stuff that is would get you in crazy legal hot water if you tried to distribute it for money (unless you file off the serial numbers like this person, but that requires that it be an AU fic to begin with and/or you have the time and resources to edit it and publish, that you be willing to dare the legal consequences, and that you have the motivation and don't think it's ethically dubious), and you aren't going to hear about how "popular" it is unless it's making some money. Who cares about a few hundred thousand hits? The sources are biased thus.

I have an axe to grind about shitty fanfiction getting all the attention and good stuff getting zero, and about Twilight to begin with, but even so, I'm really pretty sure popularity still does not in and of itself entail quality.

I'm also pretty sure "horribly written, but decent for the genre" inescapably implies that most other erotic fiction (or perhaps some subgenre-- BDSM fiction? fanfiction?) is even more horribly written in some way. Frankly, I view that as the dismissable ramblings of someone who's never read any pr0n outside their grandmother's Harlequins, but hopefully they meant something other than what they said...

I don't really want to disagree with your statement that popularity equates to quality, but I think you're missing a bigger point; while popularity doesn't equate quality, it does equate to importance pretty well. There is much to be learned about a population from what it finds exciting. We have much to learn from Twilight, Howard Stern and Snooki, it's just not from the things they are saying.

And on a completely irrelevant note, can we start the obscure character fanfiction thread you promised? It sounds like fun. I nominate Haroun Khalifa from Salman Rushdie's Haroun and the Sea of Stories

[SpaceFrank]

Someone brought this book to my friend's 4th of July barbecue. After enough beers, we started dramatically reading selected passages. Hilarity ensued.

[Ralith The Third]

I have not actually read it.

That said, I've heard that it inaccurately portrays the BDSM scene (which should damn near be a crime - if people get it in their heads to do shit without the right safety procedures then people could die) and obviously it's origins are complete trash.

If you want to read smut, go read on literotica.com , there's decent stuff there, including decent BDSM.

[Jorpho]

I thought this review was from the same person who brought us OH JOHN RINGO NO [GIANT TRIGGER WARNING], but no, it just seems that way because of stylistic similarities and the subject matter.

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215

EDIT: Giant Trigger Warning added, if you've gotten this far.

[thudworm]

I thought this review was from the same person who brought us [url=http://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html]OH JOHN RINGO NO[url], but no, it just seems that way because of stylistic similarities and the subject matter.

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215

Giant trigger warning needs to be added to that first link!

[RollingHead]

I thought this review was from the same person who brought us OH JOHN RINGO NO [GIANT TRIGGER WARNING], but no, it just seems that way because of stylistic similarities and the subject matter.

what is this i don't even
Sorry for my choice of words but I just... uh... why... what was that?

[modularblues]

So I couldn't stop laughing at this and this.

[Jorpho]

I thought this review was from the same person who brought us OH JOHN RINGO NO [GIANT TRIGGER WARNING], but no, it just seems that way because of stylistic similarities and the subject matter.

what is this i don't even
Sorry for my choice of words but I just... uh... why... what was that?

Might as well complete the trifecta and point you to Yahtzee's review of a very wrong Anne Rice novel. The link to the review of Jamaica Layne's "Knight Moves", I think, is best left out entirely.

But I will say that I think I found these at TVTropes under IKEA Erotica and Anatomically Impossible Sex (formerly You Fail Sex Ed Forever). I'm not linking to TVTropes either.

[RollingHead]

The Ann Rice stuff wasn't nearly as bad, as far as I can tell (which isn't very far since the review wasn't as detailed and didn't contain parts of the book). And why did I google TVTropes, I really need to study!
I haven't read 50 shades yet but I'd like to, it seems like the sort of thing it would be fun to laugh at, I'm waiting for a cheap edition to come out.

[Gellert1984]

So, my mother tried reading this, she lasted four pages. I might try, I've heard its like bad fanfiction and bad fanfiction is a guilty pleasure of mine. Although I've also heard it totally screws up BDSM which is a pet peeve of mine. So I'll try reading it... after pretty much all of ian m banks work and 'a crown imperilled...and a house of leaves...

[ahammel]

I haven't read 50 shades yet but I'd like to, it seems like the sort of thing it would be fun to laugh at, I'm waiting for a cheap edition to come out.

I believe it's still available for free in the form of Edward/Bella fanfic.

[thalia]

I heard it's horribly written, but pretty decent for the genre.

What the actual hell does this mean? "This books is horribly written but otherwise pretty decent" sounds an awful lot to me like "this computer will explode if you try to turn it on, but is otherwise pretty good".

Sounds more like. "this is a pretty shitty computer, but it's the best you can get for under X amount of money" for example.

The implication of that would be that there's no such thing as well-written erotic fiction. I'm not a fan of the genre, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.

You're right, it isn't true.

I'm not a massive fan of the genre as a whole, due to the annoying number of really crappy writing and the generally very tacky covers, but I have read some erotic fiction. I won't be ashamed to say it, either. Who cares? I have a vivid imagination, almost tactile, so that really works for me.

I massively disagree that popularity equals quality. But clearly there is a genre here that the world wants explored. A more talented, smart author might pick up on that and decide to cash in on it (I mean, what is Dan Brown up to these days anyway...?)

As for the book themselves:

They're shit. I hate them. I've read them. Forget the writing, forget the overuse of certain words and the cheap emotional plots and the shallow, uninteresting main characters (not to mention sidekick-type-characters; they read like the author spent as much time on them as I did on my year 6 art project). Forget, even, the massive abuse that the S&M community has to suffer at the hands of the emotionally overwrought Christian Psychopath Grey. It just made me want to cringe, the lot of it. But what really, really pisses me off is how a relationship between a grown man and a grown woman is portrayed in this book. She (she being the author) took years and years of hard work that other women put in, and just pissed all over it. The male character basically controls the female character's entire life. Oh, you decided to get your own job instead of working for me as I wanted you to? Well guess what, woman, I'm going to go behind your back and BUY THE FIRM YOU WORK FOR. I mean, what the eff? And that's okay? This guy dictates every single thing she does, and she puts up with it, over and over and over again, because she "loves" him so much. She seems to be suffering from the delusion that, because she got to pick out her own dress to wear that day (which, incidentally, she doesn't always), her opinion matters.

I don't know what her (the main character's) issues are, because frankly she has the depth of a piece of paper, but man, if they were written into the book they would be worthy of some serious counseling. Possibly a nice little padded cell.

Then again, a girl I know who's never read before (and I mean never read a book her entire life), picked up these and liked them. So they've done one good thing in this world, I guess.

[Jesse]

I am thankful for erotic fiction, as it's what kept my bookshop running for about six months longer than it should have.

[thalia]

I am thankful for erotic fiction, as it's what kept my bookshop running for about six months longer than it should have.

Ouch, Jesse. Now I feel bad for all those mean things I said. Your good thing wins out over my bad opinion, definitely.

[Jesse]

Hahaha, no feeling bad. I was making jokes about how popular these things are, not about the quality of their literature.

Thought I'd posted this before, but I guess I haven't. Interesting defence of the book by Laurie Penny: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/cultu ... hades-grey

[ahammel]

Thought I'd posted this before, but I guess I haven't. Interesting defence of the book by Laurie Penny: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/cultu ... hades-grey

I don't know if that was a defence of the book so much as a complaint that nobody whinges when porn for men is without artistic merit hilariously bad.

[Jesse]

But that's what the defence is, it's not "This work is a great literary art" because the work isn't one and was never intended to be. It's that people rip into it for not being that when they've never made a fuss about the reams of porn intended for males that exhibits no signs of outstanding writing.

[thalia]

Hey, that's actually an excellent point. But wouldn't it be nice to see something with a sexual theme that wasn't completely shit? Or am I entering onto dangerous territory here...

What about this author: http://www.jeanauel.com/? Granted, I read her books ages ago, but I still remember the general themes of the stories catching my young attention (betrayal, "racism", poverty and struggle for power/love)

[poxic]

And "deep pink folds". I read some Auel when I was ... 12? Quite graphic in places, iirc, but it was mostly story with a bit of porn.

[thalia]

Haha, hey, I was also 12!

Yeah, it was graphic. But beyond the graphic parts, it wasn't terribly written. Was it? Or am I just remembering it wrongly? Because as far as 50 shades is concerned, the writing is so horrible it is like listening to nails scraping against a blackboard. Anything above that level would surely be a good alternative?

[poxic]

I'm having to dig back a few decades, but I recall less than stellar writing. Clan of the Cave Bear was Auel's first written work so she had a lot of learning to do on the job.

[folkhero]

But that's what the defence is, it's not "This work is a great literary art" because the work isn't one and was never intended to be. It's that people rip into it for not being that when they've never made a fuss about the reams of porn intended for males that exhibits no signs of outstanding writing.

Of course people do make fun of how bad porn for men usually is:

Maude Lebowski: Lord. You can imagine where it goes from here.
The Dude: He fixes the cable?
Maude Lebowski: Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey

Though by now jokes making fun of the whole genre are pretty much played out and hacky.
People also know that erotic fiction and romance novels tend to not be the best written, but again making fun of the whole genre is a bit played out. Now the Fifty Shades books got weirdly popular all of a sudden so now they are something of a cultural phenomenon; the president of the United States made a joke about it the other night. The series creates a sort of nucleation point for jokes to form around (and more serious criticism as well), you can make a joke about this specific piece of porn and people will know what you are talking about. There are very few examples of porn for men that have gotten anywhere near as popular. The only examples that I can think of are celebrity sex tapes and older movies like Deep Throat. Celebrity sex tapes barely count as porn since they are (at least by appearances) something not created for an audience, but just created for the enjoyment participants. Anyway, those sex tapes and the people in them are mocked and criticized pretty widely. As for Deep Throat, I'm sure you could fill volumes on people making cracks about it and people making very serious criticisms of it.

[RollingHead]

I agree with folkhero and would like to add that most porn isn't appreciated for the story, although setting and characters can matter, but a several hundred page book is a different scenario and a decent plot and development is expected.