Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby MotorToad » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:00 am UTC

Midnight wrote:Yeah the other ter'angreal HAS to be at the black tower. It's all that makes sense.


Gateway guy is cool.

But I'm worried that this last book is going to be too much, too fast. I realize that it's totally ridiculous to say that this six-parter-turned-fourteen-parter lacks text, but it's gonna be
> Covering EVERYTHING at the Black Tower.
> Covering EVERYTHING Demandred has been up to (cause he's supposed to be the foil to Lews Therin) as well as Moridin's crackpot schemes.
> Moirane explains a ton.
> Find out exactly where Loial has been.
> Finally have a triple-ta'veren meetup that BEST have a ton of dialogue & Mat jokes.
> Covering moar with Egwene and the Aes Sedai.
> Covering the red-veiled Aiel.
> Probably some shit about Callandor.
> A ton of stuff to do with Seanchan in general.
> Maybe some stuff from the lands beyond the waste
> THE WHOLE FUCKING LAST BATTLE.

In a mere thousand pages.
If they milk the last third of the "last book" into three more books because someone at the publisher read this, your karma's gonna take a beating. :P


I'm so relieved the quality of the last books has picked up so much. I'd completely sworn the series off due to its total refusal to bend towards an end, but I'm happy with it again. I might just go and reread the earlier books again. Or not... maybe I'll just read the wiki articles on them. ;)
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Midnight » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:22 am UTC

Man, whatever. At this point, I'm fine with them doing a 3-book finale to the 3-book finale to the 3-book finale of the 6-part series. or however it turned out to be. Sanderson is way better at moving the plot along... but I'm worried he'll have to go at such breakneck velocities that I'll get whiplash.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:03 pm UTC

The way sanderson is writing these last 2 books I honestly wouldn't mind much if the finale was drawn out even more, the books feel like things are happening and a really nice pace.
I don't care about getting to the end so much as the journey being interesting.

Re: tying off weaves, there seem to be a fair few really long term weaves though I got the impression they had to have both men and women involved in making them.
it wouldn't be that surprising for the forsaken to know a few tricks from the AOL.

I too sometimes get the "why don't they just..." feeling sometimes when they're conspicuously not using the power to it's full potential but far far less with Sanderson than with Robert Jordan, I'm guessing he spent enough time thinking the same himself when he was merely a fan of the seriese.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:48 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:> Covering EVERYTHING at the Black Tower.
> Covering EVERYTHING Demandred has been up to (cause he's supposed to be the foil to Lews Therin) as well as Moridin's crackpot schemes.
> Moirane explains a ton.
> Find out exactly where Loial has been.
> Finally have a triple-ta'veren meetup that BEST have a ton of dialogue & Mat jokes.
> Covering moar with Egwene and the Aes Sedai.
> Covering the red-veiled Aiel.
> Probably some shit about Callandor.
> A ton of stuff to do with Seanchan in general.
> Maybe some stuff from the lands beyond the waste
> THE WHOLE FUCKING LAST BATTLE.


A few other things that are probably important...

Spoiler:
-The fate of Lanfear.
-The final confrontation between Rand and Padan Fain.
-Seanchan invasion of Tar Valon
-Rebirth of Malkier
-Fulfilling every remaining prophecy that is still outstanding (and there's lots)
-The link between Rand and Moridin
-The attack on Caemlyn



My personal take on some of these issues (spoiled separately in case you'd rather not know ;) ):

Spoiler:
-I don't think Demandred is actually going to be all that significant. Yes, he's the only Forsaken completely unaccounted for, but, in large part because of that, he hasn't really interacted directly in the story in any really significant way. Compared to Taim, Padan Fain, and Moridin, he's pretty low ranked on the major villain scale. I'd be surprised if he actually confronts Rand--I think it more likely that he'll be killed by someone like Egwene, who I think is due to bag a Forsaken.
-The return of Moiraine is probably going to be hugely significant. I'm assuming it will be largely due to the knowledge that she's received that will be critical to winning the last battle, since, in terms of being an Aes Sedai or even an advisor to Rand, she probably isn't as necessary as she once was. As to exactly what that knowledge is...
-Loial will presumably return from the Stump with the Ogier marshalled for war. There is also probably a somewhat important aside involving Loial, Perrin, the Tinkers, the Aiel and a certain song, although it's beyond me to say how that will fit together. Presumably after the Last Battle, a number of the Aiel will reconvert to the Way of the Leaf--that may be the resolution the Aviendia's (sorry about butchering the spellings on all the names) vision from ToM
-There will presumably be a huge council of war just prior to the Last Battle involving nearly all of the major characters. I figure that the Seanchan invasion of Tar Valon is in fact a plot device to make sure that Tuon and her armies are there at the same time.
-Moridin (or Demandred maybe) will probably gain possession of Callandor and use it to kill Rand. It seems likely that he will be revived by Nyneave.
-I have to believe that there's some great significance to Shara upcoming. The fact that it's been mentioned in just about every book, and yet nobody has ever been to visit there...
-Perrin at some point is supposed to save Rand's life (again; Min vision). I suspect Perrin will kill Padain Fain to do so.
-The contents of the book Verin left Egwene

-I think the big question for the Last Battle is really going to be how it will be resolved. Yes there will be lots of battles and things going on. Yes, a few (although not many, I don't think) major characters will probably die. But the important question really revolves around the critical discussion between Rand and Moridin in, I think it was, book 11. The way that the Wheel is constructed, the Dark One will invariably win. Maybe not this time. But maybe next time. Or the time after. He has the advantage of knowing all of his previous efforts, and only needs to get lucky once. Unless there is a way to destroy him entirely. The early versions of this conversation (between Rand, Min, and the old guy in Cairhien) seemed to suggest that the best Rand could do was to reseal the Dark One exactly as the Creator had done it. But I'm not convinced that is sufficient to be called a victory given everything that's come before.


One thing that's always bothered me...

The Aes Sedai have some really sort of pointless Ajahs (the Whites?) and are, IMHO are missing one that seems obvious for the sort of group they are: why is there no Ajah that studies the One Power? It seems like there a lot of things that they should know, or should have figured out, but didn't just because none of them are actually interested in the very thing that makes them special. A lot of the "discoveries" by the main characters seem to be more along the lines of "I wonder what happens if I did this... hey it worked!" The lack of intellectual curiousity in the Aes Sedai is really dubious.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby HungryHobo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:58 pm UTC

The early versions of this conversation (between Rand, Min, and the old guy in Cairhien) seemed to suggest that the best Rand could do was to reseal the Dark One exactly as the Creator had done it. But I'm not convinced that is sufficient to be called a victory given everything that's come before.


Padan fain though is something new and his power is inimical to the dark ones power, he feeds off it.
So I'm wondering if perhaps something or someone is going to get shut in with the dark one this time...

The Aes Sedai have some really sort of pointless Ajahs (the Whites?) and are, IMHO are missing one that seems obvious for the sort of group they are: why is there no Ajah that studies the One Power?


Waiting for the fanfic: "The Wheel of Rationality"
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:At this point, I'm fine with them doing a 3-book finale to the 3-book finale to the 3-book finale of the 6-part series
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby pseudoidiot » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:35 pm UTC

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby existentialpanda » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:35 am UTC

HungryHobo wrote:Waiting for the fanfic: "The Wheel of Rationality"


THIS. Very much this.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby MotorToad » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:19 am UTC

existentialpanda wrote:Image
Your Dragon's fang is upside-down. :)
What did you bring the book I didn't want read out of up for?
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby existentialpanda » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:24 am UTC

MotorToad wrote:
existentialpanda wrote:Image
Your Dragon's fang is upside-down. :)


Blood and ashes, why does it keep doing that?

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Adam H » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:46 pm UTC

A bit of a necro, and I don't have anything earthshattering to add, but I just finished the most recent book, Towers of Midnight, and this series has been reaffirmed as my favorite fantasy books.

ToM speculation/questions/major spoilers:
Spoiler:
At the very end of ToM there is the dark one's prophecy that talks about perrin's death. And... I found it online, hooray!
Prophecies of the Shadow wrote:Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!
Is this supposed to be the same prophecy that Graendal sees that makes her think that she is destined to kill Perrin? Does Graendal think that the Towers of Midnight refer to her or the dreamspike or something?

Why is the book called Towers of Midnight? I thought it was referring to the Tower of Ghenjei, until I read this prophecy. Then I thought ToM was the dreamspikes or something. But then the glossary says they are 13 towers in Seanchan, and I don't get the significance...

Last question is, Perrin's gonna die? :cry: The obvious (and therefore probably wrong) interpretation is that the fallen blacksmith and the broken wolf are both perrin. But if not for the "his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself," I might think that the "broken wolf who has known death" refers to Hopper. And a quick google search indicates that other people think the broken wolf might be Lan or Noal/Jain. Who knows, I guess.
Last book is finished except for editing, due out this fall, perhaps. So that's exciting.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:11 am UTC

There's much debate in WoT fandom over those lines, I'll spoil the rest of my reply:
Spoiler:
I assume you specifically mean the lines:
the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

The end of the fallen blacksmith's pride could mean many things- it could just be speaking about Hopper's death, or the end of his army, or many other things. The broken wolf could be interpreted to mean many people- Elyas, Lan, and Ituralde are all considered strong options. You also need to consider that the prophecies tend not to work out as expected: take the first part of the first prophecy of the shadow that we see:
Daughter of the Night, she walks again. The ancient war, she yet fights. Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still. Who shall stand against her coming? The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Now, yes, the Shining Walls did kneel- but that was some Aes Sedai swearing deference to Rand after Dumai Wells. The simplest interpretation of prophecies in the Wheel of Time is often a dangerous one to make.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby dhokarena56 » Wed May 02, 2012 10:34 pm UTC

I'm thinking about picking this one up. Were the books written by Sanderson just as good as those by Jorden?
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Adam H » Wed May 02, 2012 11:11 pm UTC

Yes! (maybe)

I think most people agree that the middle few books (4-8?) are the worst in the series, and that the last two that Sanderson wrote are better than adequate. Personally, I think Sanderson's books are the best of all of them.

Last book due out January 8, 2013
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby HungryHobo » Thu May 03, 2012 8:38 am UTC

I've read some of sandersons other books and while he writing style is good his characters/worlds tend to be a bit thin.

So it suits him well to write for an existing series where the characters are already full bodied and the world well defined.

He can move a plot along well and keep you wanting to turn pages. something RJ was unfortunatly poor at.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby emceng » Thu May 03, 2012 1:12 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Yes! (maybe)

I think most people agree that the middle few books (4-8?) are the worst in the series, and that the last two that Sanderson wrote are better than adequate. Personally, I think Sanderson's books are the best of all of them.

Last book due out January 8, 2013


Slight disagreement here. I think the consensus is that books 7-11 were where it got bogged down. Things were still pretty active up through Lord of Chaos. Crown of Swords, Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, etc. were where he started to ramble excessively.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Adam H » Thu May 03, 2012 3:32 pm UTC

Yeah, I think I am just misremembering the numbers. I do remember liking what happens in Winter's Heart, but not if the entire book was especially good. Also I'm a bit of a skimmer when I read so I don't mind the rambling as much.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu May 03, 2012 8:27 pm UTC

Winter's Heart was something of a blip. It really wasn't too bad, but it was followed up by Crossroads of Twilight: Or, Elayne Takes A Bath. That was quite possibly the biggest waste of the entire series.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu May 03, 2012 8:54 pm UTC

dhokarena56 wrote:I'm thinking about picking this one up. Were the books written by Sanderson just as good as those by Jorden?

My suggestion would be to skip Jordan entirely and pick up something else by Sanderson. They fall in pretty much the same niche (epic fantasy, extremely simple characters, extensive descriptions of magic use) except Sanderson is better than Jordan in pretty much all ways. The only real advantage of WoT is sheer volume.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 03, 2012 9:03 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:ToM speculation/questions/major spoilers:

Spoiler:
At the very end of ToM there is the dark one's prophecy that talks about perrin's death. And... I found it online, hooray!

Prophecies of the Shadow wrote:Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!


Is this supposed to be the same prophecy that Graendal sees that makes her think that she is destined to kill Perrin? Does Graendal think that the Towers of Midnight refer to her or the dreamspike or something?

Why is the book called Towers of Midnight? I thought it was referring to the Tower of Ghenjei, until I read this prophecy. Then I thought ToM was the dreamspikes or something. But then the glossary says they are 13 towers in Seanchan, and I don't get the significance...

Last question is, Perrin's gonna die? :cry: The obvious (and therefore probably wrong) interpretation is that the fallen blacksmith and the broken wolf are both perrin. But if not for the "his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself," I might think that the "broken wolf who has known death" refers to Hopper. And a quick google search indicates that other people think the broken wolf might be Lan or Noal/Jain. Who knows, I guess.


Some thoughts on the prophecy.

Spoiler:
This is a really complex prophecy, but I'll struggle through a few things...

Let's start with proper nouns...

Greatest One
Great Lord
One-Eyed Fool
First Among Vermin
Him who will Destroy
Fallen Blacksmith
Broken Wolf
Death
Midnight Towers
Lord of the Evening
Broken Champion
Darkness

Okay, easy ones: Great Lord is clearly the Dark One, as this is a standard name in dark prophecies and used by darkfriends. Greatest One, I think we can assume is also the Dark One from context. One-Eyed Fool is obviously Mat. Fallen Blacksmith is obviously Perrin. Death (note the capital) is could be Moridin, whose name literally means death. Lord of the Evening is either the Dark One, again, or Moridin, again. I suspect the latter--Lewis Therin is Lord of the Morning; his dark counterpart would be Lord of the Evening. If we accept this, that would make the Broken Champion Rand.

That leaves us with First Among Vermin, Broken Wolf, Midnight Towers, Darkness, Him who will Destroy. Some of these might be some of the people above, or perhaps not.

The Midnight Towers is obviously of interest. The Forsaken have been referred to as dark towers before (see Egwene's vision at the start of the book). There are the towers in Seanchan of the same name, but this seems too literal. My bet is on the Forsaken. If we take Death=Moridin, the Broken Wolf, then, is someone who has met Moridin, and will be killed by the Forsaken. This narrows the field quite a bit. Rand and Taim have met Moridin, so has Demandred, although it isn't clear why either of these latter two would fit. Rand fits nicely with the "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." Another possibility is that the Broken Wolf is Lan. Although Lan isn't typically associated with wolf imagery, he has said on several occasions that death is his bride, etc. If Lan and his forces were killed at Tarwin's Gap, that could certainly shake the will of our heroes. In this case, the Midnight Towers could be the broken towers of Malkieri.

Rand seems a plausible candidate for First Among Vermin, and that Him who will Destroy is the Dark One, and this refers to Rand breaking the seals. Padan Fain also fits here though, either as First Among Vermin or as Him who will Destroy. A lot of people believe that Fain will ultimately be the catalyst that will defeat the Dark One. Rand's death could bring freedom to Fain, who will then end up destroying the Dark One.

Who's left? Darkness. It could just mean literal Darkness, such as the dark clouds that follow the Dark One's armies. Or possibly it will follow Christian symbolism of the darkness that covered the land following Christ's death. I'm wondering if it means Lanfear, who is associated with night, and who is renowned for her beauty. Particularly since, she's alive, and, from the sounds of it, would be willing to join the good guys given the chance.

Also note that the names of the books are not necessarily terribly symbolic. See: Path of Daggers, Knife of Dreams, Crossroads of Twilight, etc.


As far as character deaths go...

Spoiler:
I think the parallels to Norse mythology running through the series are pretty important. Mat is heavily based on the Norse god Odin (the hat, luck, battles, one-eye, magic resistance), and Perrin is based on Thor (Thor's hammer is Mjöllnir, blacksmith-to-king, wolves). Both of these gods die at Ragnarok. Rand shares some parallels with Tyr (one-handed god of justice), who is killed by the dog Garm at the entrance to the underworld during Ragnarok. Fain is often referred to as the Dark One's hound, so this seems a nice parallel. There's good reason to believe that Rand will be resurrected, however, since he also shares a number of parallels with Jesus.

On the other hand, RJ I believe had mentioned that he had considered doing a Mat/Tuon book after the series was over, so both of those characters may survive.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby MotorToad » Fri May 04, 2012 5:10 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Yes! (maybe)

I think most people agree that the middle few books (4-8?) are the worst in the series, and that the last two that Sanderson wrote are better than adequate. Personally, I think Sanderson's books are the best of all of them.

I'd say 5-10 by my recollection, but otherwise this is Truth. The first book is worth most of the frustration of the middle filler. (If you hate your liver, drink every time he describes a short bosomy woman, mentions spanking, or says "ageless face.") When you're on book 9 and questioning your sanity, go back a reread 1 & 2 and you'll feel better about yourself.

I was ready to just give up on the series but I got the Sanderson audio book and it really stood out. I loved it and the second one, too. I liked it enough to get another of his books and it's... fairly poor in audio form. It's acted instead of read, and it's tough to judge the book on its merits with that horrid medium.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Retsam » Mon May 07, 2012 4:28 am UTC

The Brandon Sanderson ones are some of my favorites, too. He's actually become my favorite author since reading his Wheel of Time books. (I'm only a couple chapters away from having finished all of his adult books that have been published)

I'm really glad that book 11, Knife of Dreams, was good, though. It was downhill between books 7-10, but I think 11 being quite good at least proved that it was just a slow spot in the story, more than it was Robert Jordan losing his touch.


(On the topic of Brandon Sanderson, Way of Kings, by him is my single favorite book, anyone who enjoyed Wheel of Time will probably enjoy Way of Kings)

I was ready to just give up on the series but I got the Sanderson audio book and it really stood out. I loved it and the second one, too. I liked it enough to get another of his books and it's... fairly poor in audio form. It's acted instead of read, and it's tough to judge the book on its merits with that horrid medium.
Which one, out of curiosity? I haven't heard any of the audiobooks, but I've read the books.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby MotorToad » Wed May 09, 2012 10:27 pm UTC

Elantris. There are several aspects of it I can tell I would normally like, but the voice acting keeps me from taking it seriously.

To give some background to my addiction to audio books, when I sleep in a noisy environment (hello, drunken roommates) I sleep with earbuds and a book on .mp3. (They're not noise-canceling or anything, but fit into the ear so the sound can be set very low and drown out the background.) Most books I can fall asleep to and keep track of where I am in the book later, even though I'll miss bits and hear bits toward the end of the book. I've gone through almost all of Pratchett's books, most of Grisham and Crighton, the Harry Potter books (to hear Stephen Fry read them), and even The Stand which is about 50 hours or some ridiculous amount. And this is the first time I've just given up on an audio book.

Now that I've lost my waffles account, I'm lacking a good source for books, though. =[
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby HungryHobo » Thu May 10, 2012 9:19 am UTC

I liked elantris and it felt like a good start to a series. I hope he'll write more though a few characters were a little to "perfect"
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Adam H
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Adam H » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:27 pm UTC

An excerpt from the prologue of the last book.

I should probably get started on rereading the series since I've forgotten everything...
-Adam

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

On pacing: I heard (in other words, it might be completely wrong) from an often knowledgeable source (in other words, it might be completely right) that RJ originally planned WoT to be a trilogy, with a self-contained first volume (makes sense for getting published). The first book did well enough that he got offered a contract for another three books, that he took as being for another three WoT books, so he stretched what would have been the second and third books a bit to allow for a fourth. After the second book, the contract got extended, and the plot got stretched further... By the time things got straightened out, it was too late.

Whether it's true or not, it does kinda fit - things slow down from book to book after the first, until books 6-8 are just marking time - and expanding scope. Book 9, with hindsight, does get things moving forward again - or at least starts extracting the key pieces from the sideplots they've got bogged down in, and positioning them so things can move forward (like a Blacksmith's Puzzle, the opening moves are often far from obvious). Book 10 is a little experimental - rather than following individual plot threads in (more or less) chronological order, it's very clear about running through the other major characters and showing what they were up to while Rand was *spoiler*ing. Without books 9 and 10, book 11 wouldn't have been in a position to move forward the way it did. After slogging through books 6-10, book 11 risks giving you mental whiplash from the pace of events, and 12 and 13 are faster still.

***

On the relationship to the real world: whatever RJ and others may have said, the WoT world doesn't make sense as a remote age of ours - sure, there are hints that the First Age, the Age of Myth, had elements very like our world - the giants Mosk and Merk who fought with spears of fire sound a lot like the mid-twentieth century if Mosk=Moscow and Merk=America, and the spears of fire are ICBMs (or, less apocalyptically, the Saturn V and its Soviet counterparts). But Artur Hawkwing, Artur Pendraeg Tanreall is all too obviously a reference back to King Arthur, who should fall firmly within the First Age, but is solidly located in the Third instead. One of the fun things you can do is spot the references to real world events, myths, and legends, but they don't hang together coherently, so, while the First Age may have been strikingly similar to our world (in which case the discovery of the One Power would probably have been the catalyst for the Second Age), it can't have been an exact match.

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Adam H
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Adam H » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:40 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:On the relationship to the real world: whatever RJ and others may have said, the WoT world doesn't make sense as a remote age of ours - sure, there are hints that the First Age, the Age of Myth, had elements very like our world - the giants Mosk and Merk who fought with spears of fire sound a lot like the mid-twentieth century if Mosk=Moscow and Merk=America, and the spears of fire are ICBMs (or, less apocalyptically, the Saturn V and its Soviet counterparts). But Artur Hawkwing, Artur Pendraeg Tanreall is all too obviously a reference back to King Arthur, who should fall firmly within the First Age, but is solidly located in the Third instead. One of the fun things you can do is spot the references to real world events, myths, and legends, but they don't hang together coherently, so, while the First Age may have been strikingly similar to our world (in which case the discovery of the One Power would probably have been the catalyst for the Second Age), it can't have been an exact match.
I think some of the incoherency is because the legends are based on legends based on legends based on legends... And some of it is because Artur Hawkwing is King Arthur reborn (or vice versa).
-Adam

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:43 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:On the relationship to the real world: whatever RJ and others may have said, the WoT world doesn't make sense as a remote age of ours - sure, there are hints that the First Age, the Age of Myth, had elements very like our world - the giants Mosk and Merk who fought with spears of fire sound a lot like the mid-twentieth century if Mosk=Moscow and Merk=America, and the spears of fire are ICBMs (or, less apocalyptically, the Saturn V and its Soviet counterparts). But Artur Hawkwing, Artur Pendraeg Tanreall is all too obviously a reference back to King Arthur, who should fall firmly within the First Age, but is solidly located in the Third instead. One of the fun things you can do is spot the references to real world events, myths, and legends, but they don't hang together coherently, so, while the First Age may have been strikingly similar to our world (in which case the discovery of the One Power would probably have been the catalyst for the Second Age), it can't have been an exact match.
I think some of the incoherency is because the legends are based on legends based on legends based on legends... And some of it is because Artur Hawkwing is King Arthur reborn (or vice versa).


If you trace some of the real-world legends back, they don't match up - for example, the Pendragon title was originally a nickname of Uther, Arthur's father, not of Arthur himself - it wasn't applied to Arthur for something like 700 years after its application to Uther - Artur Hawkwing is immediately recognisable as the modern King Arthur Pendragon, but much less so as any version predating Geoffrey of Monmouth's twelfth-century creation. Or, while Birgitte Silverbow's earlier incarnation as Maerion obviously recalls Maid Marian, companion of Robin Hood, the legendary character has spent more time as a shepherdess or a defenseless daughter of the Norman nobility than as a bow-wielding heroine.

It's beyond belief that the myths and legends which have varied over time have, despite only gaining some of their distinctive characteristics comparatively recently, somehow captured an accurate echo of a much older historical figure.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Dark Avorian » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:56 pm UTC

Also, time is cyclical, so there's no need for Mosk and Merk to fall after Artur in the view of the people in this story.
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HungryHobo
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby HungryHobo » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:04 am UTC

and also the same players get woven back in again and again. King arthur can have incarnations again and again.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:25 am UTC

My point here is that, if modern-day versions of myths and legends were folk-memories of events referenced in WoT, then older versions of the same myths and legends should be more closely matched to the WoT events and people. Instead, if you delve into the lore, you find that modern (or mid-20th century) versions of the myths and legends are closer than the older versions - either something has caused multiple, independently mutating, stories to converge on "true" versions at about the same time, or the events in WoT are caused by the real-world myths and legends rather than the other way round, or it's total coincidence - in any case, it requires direct intervention by some higher being to get WoT to be an even remotely plausible future of our real world.

And that's before you start digging into paleontology.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby HungryHobo » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:12 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:My point here is that, if modern-day versions of myths and legends were folk-memories of events referenced in WoT, then older versions of the same myths and legends should be more closely matched to the WoT events and people.

Ah but it's the same people being woven in. just as some heros are always woven in together and find each other and become partners, not just once each time the wheel turns but multiple times per age. perhaps the idea is that the round table (or similar) gets woven in together again and again or that Khrushchev and Kenedy face each other again and again with different massively destructive weapons.

though I wouldn't worry too much about it. I never assumed that the WOT world was supposed to be ours.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Giallo » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:50 pm UTC

The last book is coming out tomorrow :D
I don't know whether I should be happy or not... I have finals in 2 weeks.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby emceng » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:11 pm UTC

Giallo wrote:The last book is coming out tomorrow :D
I don't know whether I should be happy or not... I have finals in 2 weeks.


I'm excited! Just need to check my Amazon order and make sure it is being delivered tomorrow!
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. - CS Lewis

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Giallo » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:59 pm UTC

emceng wrote:
Giallo wrote:The last book is coming out tomorrow :D
I don't know whether I should be happy or not... I have finals in 2 weeks.


I'm excited! Just need to check my Amazon order and make sure it is being delivered tomorrow!


I bought it! Ah, the smell of freshly printed pages!
Did you get it?
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby emceng » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:28 pm UTC

Giallo wrote:
emceng wrote:
Giallo wrote:The last book is coming out tomorrow :D
I don't know whether I should be happy or not... I have finals in 2 weeks.


I'm excited! Just need to check my Amazon order and make sure it is being delivered tomorrow!


I bought it! Ah, the smell of freshly printed pages!
Did you get it?


It was out for delivery a few hours ago! I should have it waiting for me when I get home.
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. - CS Lewis

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Giallo » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:01 pm UTC

emceng wrote:It was out for delivery a few hours ago! I should have it waiting for me when I get home.


Good reading, then :D
"Ich bin ein Teil von jener Kraft, die stets das Böse will und stets das Gute schafft."

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby pseudoidiot » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:08 pm UTC

Totally missed that this was coming out any time soon. Crap.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Adam H » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:23 pm UTC

My plan last year was to reread the entire series by... yesterday. And... right now I'm halfway through The Great Hunt. :(
-Adam

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby pseudoidiot » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:44 pm UTC

Trying to decide if I'll:

1. Wait for the ebook version.
2. Order it from Amazon, but have to find something else to read for the next 2 days.
3. Just go buy it at Barnes & Noble and start reading tonight.
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