"both have" or "have both" ?

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jacksmack
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"both have" or "have both" ?

Postby jacksmack » Sun May 26, 2013 11:08 am UTC

Hi,

I have these sentences:
1) I will not have both fish and potatoes.
2) I will not both have fish and potatoes.

I know that 1) is correct, i would to know if also the 2) is correct.
And also what's the meaning of the two sentences?
for example in the 1) the correct meaning would be: I will have one of them, but not both of them. Or not? :?

can you help me please?
thanks! :)

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drego642
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby drego642 » Sun May 26, 2013 11:27 am UTC

jacksmack wrote:Hi,

I have these sentences:
1) I will not have both fish and potatoes.
2) I will not both have fish and potatoes.

I know that 1) is correct, i would to know if also the 2) is correct.
And also what's the meaning of the two sentences?
for example in the 1) the correct meaning would be: I will have one of them, but not both of them. Or not? :?

can you help me please?
thanks! :)

Right. Your impression of the first sentence is correct.

The second sentence is not grammatically correct, however, because word order is so important in English. If you place the word "both" in that position in the sentence, it tends to reflect back on the subject - and, since the subject is only one person ("I"), it doesn't make sense. However, if you were talking about two people, for instance yourself and another person, you could say, "we will not both have fish and potatoes" and it would be grammatically correct. The meaning of this sentence is: "one of the two of us may have fish and potatoes, but not both."

I'm curious, would both of those word orders be grammatically correct in Italian?

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styrofoam
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby styrofoam » Sun May 26, 2013 3:25 pm UTC

Is it possible to get away with parallel structure?

I will both have fish and have potatoes.
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eSOANEM
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby eSOANEM » Sun May 26, 2013 4:03 pm UTC

Yeah, that seems ok grammatically just doesn't scan easily.
my pronouns are they

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jacksmack
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby jacksmack » Sun May 26, 2013 8:49 pm UTC

thank you very much indeed! :D

drego642 wrote:The second sentence is not grammatically correct, however, because word order is so important in English. If you place the word "both" in that position in the sentence, it tends to reflect back on the subject - and, since the subject is only one person ("I"), it doesn't make sense. However, if you were talking about two people, for instance yourself and another person, you could say, "we will not both have fish and potatoes" and it would be grammatically correct. The meaning of this sentence is: "one of the two of us may have fish and potatoes, but not both."

Many thanks it's very clear! :)

drego642 wrote:I'm curious, would both of those word orders be grammatically correct in Italian?

Reading your clarification, I think that it is valid in italian only in the particular example you have given! So my example 2) is invalid in italian too!

styrofoam wrote:Is it possible to get away with parallel structure?

I will both have fish and have potatoes.

So have you given an alternative of the 2)? So you will have both of them! Where you can put the negation in your statement?

eSOANEM wrote:Yeah, that seems ok grammatically just doesn't scan easily.

it's not clear. Does it refer to "styrofoam" question?


Now I have another question. My example 2) springs from the need to know the case "I don't want neither of them". How can you express this, following the outline of my two examples? thanks :)

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eSOANEM
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby eSOANEM » Sun May 26, 2013 11:05 pm UTC

jacksmack wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:Yeah, that seems ok grammatically just doesn't scan easily.

it's not clear. Does it refer to "styrofoam" question?


Now I have another question. My example 2) springs from the need to know the case "I don't want neither of them". How can you express this, following the outline of my two examples? thanks :)


Yeah, I was responding to Styrofoam.

To your example at the end of the post: neither sounds very odd there, I've only ever heard/would only ever use "either" instead.

If you wanted to use "neither", you'd need to not negate the verb (because double negatives are very non-standard) e.g. "I want neither of them". This sounds very formal though.
my pronouns are they

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drego642
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby drego642 » Sun May 26, 2013 11:17 pm UTC

jacksmack wrote:Now I have another question. My example 2) springs from the need to know the case "I don't want neither of them". How can you express this, following the outline of my two examples? thanks :)

Glad I could help. :) I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you're asking here. What I can say right off the bat, though, is that English, unlike Italian, does not use double negatives to form negative statements (well... arguably, some dialects do, but that's not common and it's generally recognized as grammatically incorrect to do so). For example, you could say, "I don't want either of them" or, "I want neither of them" but not, "I don't want neither of them."

I'm pretty sure this doesn't answer your question, but it's important to note.

EDIT: Yup, eSOANEM's comment above summed this up just before I posted this.

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jacksmack
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby jacksmack » Mon May 27, 2013 12:42 am UTC

Ok, you have resolved the problem of double negatives, even if I have not asked about it! and it's ok! :) thanks!

drego642 wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you're asking here

in my 1) statement
jacksmack wrote:1) I will not have both fish and potatoes.

we have said that it is right to consider this: I will have one of them, but not both of them.

I would want to express with another sentence (following the outline of 1) using "both" if possible) that "I will not have both of them AND I will not have one of them" :?
i.e. a sentence like this: I will not have fish AND I will not have potatoes AND I will not have fish "with" potatoes.
"with" is an intruder, but it is for give an idea of what I want to say! I'm not able to build this one similar to 1) using both.

hope I have explained better the problem!
sorry for my bad english!

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eSOANEM
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby eSOANEM » Mon May 27, 2013 8:09 am UTC

You could say "I will both not have fish and not have potatoes" but that's a bit clunky. It's definitely better to say "I won't have fish or potatoes" (which means the same thing).
my pronouns are they

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drego642
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Re: "both have" or "have both" ?

Postby drego642 » Mon May 27, 2013 9:38 am UTC

Yeah, there really isn't a way to say that in English while using the word "both" and still making it not sound awkward or hard to understand. The clearest way I can think to word it is, "I will have neither fish nor potatoes."


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