Miscellaneous language questions

[Mega85]

According to merriam-webster dictionary the American "math" is older than the British "maths".

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/math (1847)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maths (1911)

Did the British originally use "math" then thought it was more logical to keep the "s" in "mathematics", and start using "maths"?

[Soupspoon]

M/b we jus dint abbrv til l8r, & thn we hd 2 kp th wrd's impl. pl.?

[Lazar]

Google's Ngrams are interesting: in the American corpus, "math" seems to have been totally dominant for as long as either word has been around, but in the British corpus, "math" also appears to have been dominant until "maths" narrowly overtook it around 1990. That seems weird to me – I wonder if there's some confounding factor at play, like American texts being included.

[Eebster the Great]

Does Ngrams only search for complete words or might it also include "math" as a subset of word like "mathematics" and "aftermath"?

[Derek]

I'm not very familiar with Google n-grams, but checking "case insensitive" gives a very different graph. Too much for me to really believe that it's just a difference of case. Does anyone know why that is?

M/b we jus dint abbrv til l8r, & thn we hd 2 kp th wrd's impl. pl.?

The word was never implied to be plural though. No one says "Mathematics are...".

[Soupspoon]

Separate mathematical methodologies (from simple primary school arithmetic through algebra and trigonometry and onwards to calculus/integration/differentiation, matrices, etc) in my mind form a grouping of related but non-singular components within the range of mathematics.

"I am learning all kinds of new maths" is an example treatment that demonstrates a practical form of the plural that I tend to think of it (uncountable as it the word may officially be). Perhaps influenced as much by the "looks like a plural" short-form that I am habituated to, whilst a phrase such "there is a greater math to be learnt" (which looks absolutely horrible, to my own biased eyes, but I dare to presume does not to those of opposing inclination) handles it in the more singular (if not monolithic) manner...

[Derek]

"I am learning all kinds of new maths" is an example treatment that demonstrates a practical form of the plural that I tend to think of it (uncountable as it the word may officially be).

That sentence does not demonstrate grammatical plurality. "I am learning all kinds of new math" is also perfectly valid. The noun in that position can be either plural or singular, and it does not affect anything else in the sentence.

[Soupspoon]

"I am learning all kinds of new maths" is an example treatment that demonstrates a practical form of the plural that I tend to think of it (uncountable as it the word may officially be).

That sentence does not demonstrate grammatical plurality. "I am learning all kinds of new math" is also perfectly valid. The noun in that position can be either plural or singular, and it does not affect anything else in the sentence.

I partially disagree, and that's mutually exclusive with the elements that I obviously did not explain well enough.

For the first part "I am buying all kinds of new dogs" (in its clumsy way) is more accurately pluralised than "I am buying all kinds of new dog". But at 2am, I seem to be unable to come up with a convetsion of phrase that is totally satisfactory. (The latter does have a valid sense, much like "men"/"man" when interchanged, but in a different manner.)

For the second, I was not saying it was being used as plural, just that it makes one (oneself, certainly) think in the plural. "Mathematics" looks like a grouping, "Maths" likewise. Singular-looking "Math" (outside of Anathem) makes the impression (this side of the digital divide) of a singular atom from the whole mass of non-homogenous mathematics, and really makes little sense in personal semiotic sense. (Acknowledging that YMMV. Or, indeed that YMDV.)


These reasons (on so little sleep) aren't intended to be persuasive, though, just explanative.

[Mega85]

It seems to me like "mathematics" naturally truncates to "math".

"math(ematics)" - "math"
"bic(ycle)" - "bike"
"gym(nasium)" - "gym"
"ed(ucation)" - "ed"
"gas(oline)" - "gas"
"petrol(eum)" - "petrol"
"mic(rophone)" - "mike"
"sax(ophone)" - "sax"
"tele(vision)" - "telly"
"deli(catessen)" - "deli"

[flicky1991]

None of those other things look like they're plurals, though - and when pluralised, you put an "s" on the abbreviation (i.e. "bikes", "gyms"). You'd have to show me a plural-looking singular that truncates without the "s" to convince me that the same applies to "mathematics".

[Mega85]

None of those other things look like they're plurals, though - and when pluralised, you put an "s" on the abbreviation (i.e. "bikes", "gyms"). You'd have to show me a plural-looking singular that truncates without the "s" to convince me that the same applies to "mathematics".

Well, "spectacles" (old name for glasses) truncates to "specs", so I guess this doesn't apply to "mathematics". "Spectacles", like "glasses", however is considered plural. "spectacles are", "glasses are".

[Soupspoon]

You could talk about "physics", perhaps. Except that the common abbreviation to "phys" is ambiguous. But it's again a (as I perceive!) nebulous grouping of narrower fields. But it deals with the same "-ikos" original root suffix.

Mechanics? ("Mech"?) Cybernetics ("Cyber"?). Not looking good.

But there are just so many words that end in "-ic" (differently obtained) that pluralise into "-ics". Relics. Bishoprics. Tunics. Mystics. Heuristics. Ecliptics. Hard to find abbreviations. "Heus", maybe, or "Ecs"/"Eccles". Then we get into the difference between the pluralised "-ic"s and the naturally uncountable "-ics". Where does "eugenics" sit? (...you can talk about a "eugenic solution", though it might better not to in polite company.) Cryonics? (Again, "cryonic" is everyday, but is "cryonics" a plurality like relic or asthmatic would be, or the word that "mathmatics" is in the absence of any obvious usage being made of "mathmatic". And "a physic(k(e))" is closer to being a medical doctor than anything relating to the non-biological "natural sciences".) Can you have an "ethic". I think so, but, it sounds strange. And none of these parallel words quite do either the "math" or "maths" abbreviation, for easy comparison of linguistic evolution...

Unless you can come up with something, before someone doubtless comes up with an equally definitive counter-example. Although there are clearly deceased equines being struck in punishment, here.

[Eebster the Great]

The singular "ethic" definitely gets use. You will hear about the importance of "a good work ethic," for instance.

[ThirdParty]

You'd have to show me a plural-looking singular that truncates without the "s" to convince me that the same applies to "mathematics".

"economics" to "econ"?

[Mega85]

How would you syllabify RP "marry"? Something I've read said that it can be syllabified as either [mæ.ɹi] or [mæɹ.i] considering that neither [mæ] nor [mæɹ] are permitted as monosyllabic words in RP.

[Soupspoon]

[ˈwɛd]?

(Can't find a source for it, but I'm sure that's the U version of your non-U query, which some might say goes hand in hand with RP.)

[Lazar]

How would you syllabify RP "marry"? Something I've read said that it can be syllabified as either [mæ.ɹi] or [mæɹ.i] considering that neither [mæ] nor [mæɹ] are permitted as monosyllabic words in RP.

As someone whose dialect aligns with RP on this point, I'd go with [ˈmæ.ɹi]. Neither one really feels right, but there's at least a little precedent for syllables ending in [æ] – e.g. "tattoo" [tʰæˈtʰʊu] – whereas [mæɹ] feels like a stronger phonotactic violation to me. On the other hand, you could also argue that it's ambisyllabic, and that nice neat syllable breaks just may not always be possible.

[flicky1991]

You'd have to show me a plural-looking singular that truncates without the "s" to convince me that the same applies to "mathematics".

"economics" to "econ"?

Ah, I hadn't heard of that one. I guess a place that uses "econ" would similarly have no problem with "math", then.

[eSOANEM]

How would you syllabify RP "marry"? Something I've read said that it can be syllabified as either [mæ.ɹi] or [mæɹ.i] considering that neither [mæ] nor [mæɹ] are permitted as monosyllabic words in RP.

As someone whose dialect aligns with RP on this point, I'd go with [ˈmæ.ɹi]. Neither one really feels right, but there's at least a little precedent for syllables ending in [æ] – e.g. "tattoo" [tʰæˈtʰʊu] – whereas [mæɹ] feels like a stronger phonotactic violation to me. On the other hand, you could also argue that it's ambisyllabic, and that nice neat syllable breaks just may not always be possible.

As an RP speaker, whilst you're right that [mæ] wouldn't be a valid word on its own, it seems fine to me as the stressed syllable in a multi-syllable word. [mæɹ] as a syllable seems completely and utterly wrong to me in all contexts.

[gmalivuk]

I'm not very familiar with Google n-grams, but checking "case insensitive" gives a very different graph. Too much for me to really believe that it's just a difference of case. Does anyone know why that is?

You can search the cases separately, and the case insensitive results definitely match that.

The surprising thing is how many more results for "Math" there are than for all the other versions in British English, whereas American English has "Math" and "math" much closer to equal.

[Derek]

You'd have to show me a plural-looking singular that truncates without the "s" to convince me that the same applies to "mathematics".

"economics" to "econ"?

Ah, I hadn't heard of that one. I guess a place that uses "econ" would similarly have no problem with "math", then.

It's a common abbreviation. For example if you were talking about taking college classes, you might say "I'm taking Econ 101", or "I'm taking Macroecon".

I've also see, less often, "linguistics" abbreviated to "ling".

[flicky1991]

Is it more common in America? I have a friend who did Economics at uni and don't think I ever heard him use the term.

[Mega85]

You'd have to show me a plural-looking singular that truncates without the "s" to convince me that the same applies to "mathematics".

"economics" to "econ"?

Ah, I hadn't heard of that one. I guess a place that uses "econ" would similarly have no problem with "math", then.

It's a common abbreviation. For example if you were talking about taking college classes, you might say "I'm taking Econ 101", or "I'm taking Macroecon".

I've also see, less often, "linguistics" abbreviated to "ling".

"Home economics" (the high school cooking classes) is commonly abbreviated (around here) to "home ec".

[Derek]

"Home economics" (the high school cooking classes) is commonly abbreviated (around here) to "home ec".

Yes, Home Cconomics is invariably "Home Ec". But all actual economics classes were "econ".

I've also seen "econ" used extensively in video games, though "eco" is also used in this case.

[Mega85]

Why do we say "scuba" as /skubə/ "skooba" and not /skjubə/ "skyooba"? We say "Cuba" as /kjubə/.

[ThirdParty]

Why do we say "scuba" as /skubə/ "skooba" and not /skjubə/ "skyooba"? We say "Cuba" as /kjubə/.

Hmm. Interesting question. At first I thought it might be because it's an acronym, but "CUNY" is /kjuni/. Then I thought it might be the "s", but "skew" is /skju/. So now I don't know.

[pogrmman]

Why do we say "scuba" as /skubə/ "skooba" and not /skjubə/ "skyooba"? We say "Cuba" as /kjubə/.

Hmm. Interesting question. At first I thought it might be because it's an acronym, but "CUNY" is /kjuni/. Then I thought it might be the "s", but "skew" is /skju/. So now I don't know.

Maybe because the "U" stands for "underwater" in SCUBA, but "univeristy" in CUNY. The u in underwater doesn't have any /ju/ sound, but university does.

[chridd]

Why do we say "scuba" as /skubə/ "skooba" and not /skjubə/ "skyooba"? We say "Cuba" as /kjubə/.

Hmm. Interesting question. At first I thought it might be because it's an acronym, but "CUNY" is /kjuni/. Then I thought it might be the "s", but "skew" is /skju/. So now I don't know.

Maybe because the "U" stands for "underwater" in SCUBA, but "univeristy" in CUNY. The u in underwater doesn't have any /ju/ sound, but university does.

Then why isn't it /skʌbə/ (or /skʌbæ/)? (Are there any acronyms where the pronunciation of the words abbreviated affects the pronunciation of the acronym?)
My guess would be that whoever first used the word happened to pronounce it that way. Or perhaps it looks enough like a foreign word that people pronounce it as such?

[Eebster the Great]

/skj/ is a pretty complicated consonant cluster. All the pronunciations you gave would be plausible given the spelling, but /sku-/ is the easiest to say. There are no perfect comparisons to lend one particular pronunciation more weight ("Cuba" is a Spanish proper noun, "CUNY" is an acronym and not widely known, neither starts with an s, and "skew" is spelled with a different vowel). So it's not surprising that pronunciation took the path of least resistance as it were.

Presumably "SCUBA" was originally used as an initialism (es cee yu bee a) before it became an acronym and then a word. I doubt the group of people first saying it did so uniformly or with much forethought.

[ThirdParty]

/skj/ is a pretty complicated consonant cluster. There are no perfect comparisons to lend one particular pronunciation more weight ("Cuba" is a Spanish proper noun, "CUNY" is an acronym and not widely known, neither starts with an s, and "skew" is spelled with a different vowel).

I wouldn't expect native English speakers to have trouble producing that cluster. In addition to "skew", there's words like "rescue", words like "excuse", and words like "miniscule". I've never heard anyone drop the yod in those.

[Soupspoon]

Not quite pointed out (Eebster touches on it), but the "ew" in "skew" is a factor in the /ju:/ (the pronunciation of "skewiff" can be either /skju:.ɪf/ or /sku:.wɪf/, give or take some other phonetic features).

I think, though, that the A in SCUBA works double-duty as the post-consonant-vowel modifier to the pre-consonant-vowel, as well as a trail-off

"SCUB" /skub/ like "rub" /rub/
"SCUBA" /sku:bə/ like "Aruba" /a.ru:bə/

Also "lub" -> "lube" /lu:b/, but that doesn't explain "cube", though (SCUBE = /skju:b/ or /sku:b/? Or just bottle it with /es.kju:b/?) or any of it mesh with tuba /tju:bə/ that supports Mega85's original confusion. But the "sk" probably reinforces the /j/less aspect to the following..

[Mega85]

Not quite pointed out (Eebster touches on it), but the "ew" in "skew" is a factor in the /ju:/ (the pronunciation of "skewiff" can be either /skju:.ɪf/ or /sku:.wɪf/, give or take some other phonetic features).

I think, though, that the A in SCUBA works double-duty as the post-consonant-vowel modifier to the pre-consonant-vowel, as well as a trail-off

"SCUB" /skub/ like "rub" /rub/
"SCUBA" /sku:bə/ like "Aruba" /a.ru:bə/

Also "lub" -> "lube" /lu:b/, but that doesn't explain "cube", though (SCUBE = /skju:b/ or /sku:b/? Or just bottle it with /es.kju:b/?) or any of it mesh with tuba /tju:bə/ that supports Mega85's original confusion. But the "sk" probably reinforces the /j/less aspect to the following..

"lube" is /lu:b/ rather than /lju:b/ because of the "l". /lj/ is an impossible cluster in English (at least for most speakers).

[Soupspoon]

"lube" is /lu:b/ rather than /lju:b/ because of the "l". /lj/ is an impossible cluster in English (at least for most speakers).

Well, you're right in that it's a bit sticky. But not so impossible, or else what should I be saying in lieu of /lju:/?

(/lɛf/? )

[ThirdParty]

Um, according to my favorite dictionary, "SCUBA", "tuba", and "lieu" are all /ju/ in Britain and /u/ in the U.S. I thought the puzzle was what "SCUBA" is doing in this category when U.S. English doesn't usually yod-drop after /k/ the way it does after /t/ or /l/.

[Mega85]

Um, according to my favorite dictionary, "SCUBA", "tuba", and "lieu" are all /ju/ in Britain and /u/ in the U.S. I thought the puzzle was what "SCUBA" is doing in this category when U.S. English doesn't usually yod-drop after /k/ the way it does after /t/ or /l/.

Yeah, Britons pronounce /j/ after /d/, /n/ and /t/ in "due", "new" and "tune", but I didn't think they pronounced /j/ after /l/ as in "lute" or "lieu". Maybe it varies whether they do or not.

[Soupspoon]

Yeah, Britons pronounce /j/ after /d/, /n/ and /t/ in "due", "new" and "tune", but I didn't think they pronounced /j/ after /l/ as in "lute" or "lieu". Maybe it varies whether they do or not.

FTFY?

On the previous point, never heard /skju:ba/ (from anyone not making a deliberate "hey, why don't websay it this way?" joke, or actual point as per this discussion's genesis), here in the UK. Maybe pre-existing cultural americanisation of pronunciation?

And I definitely say "lieu" with the /j/, as mentioned above. But "lute" is without. Homophonic to "loot", or maybe slightly more stressed-lower on the vowel.

[Angua]

What about ludicrous? I say that as /j/ I'm not sure about lute, both sound ok to me.

I don't think I've ever heard SCUBA with the u pronounced that was though.

[Soupspoon]

Loodikrus.

(And rather than edit again, it occured to me that "lute/loot" (semi-long vowel) differ as per "buck/book" (shorter vowel, each). Normally indistinguishable, but subtly different if you're trying to say them with the same background intonation.)

[Mega85]

Yeah, Britons pronounce /j/ after /d/, /n/ and /t/ in "due", "new" and "tune", but I didn't think they pronounced /j/ after /l/ as in "lute" or "lieu". Maybe it varies whether they do or not.

FTFY?

On the previous point, never heard /skju:ba/ (from anyone not making a deliberate "hey, why don't websay it this way?" joke, or actual point as per this discussion's genesis), here in the UK. Maybe pre-existing cultural americanisation of pronunciation?

And I definitely say "lieu" with the /j/, as mentioned above. But "lute" is without. Homophonic to "loot", or maybe slightly more stressed-lower on the vowel.

What about "Lucy", "lunar" and "lunatic"? Do you have a /j/ in those words? Or is "lieu" the only word that starts with a /lj/ cluster for you.

[chridd]

Um, according to my favorite dictionary, "SCUBA", "tuba", and "lieu" are all /ju/ in Britain and /u/ in the U.S. I thought the puzzle was what "SCUBA" is doing in this category when U.S. English doesn't usually yod-drop after /k/ the way it does after /t/ or /l/.

I don't know that a typical American with yod-dropping would know which consonants it happens after; I think they'd be more likely just to think of 〈u〉 (in contexts where it's normally long) as sometimes being pronounced /u/ and other times being pronounced /ju/, which means that if someone encounters a new word in spelling, they wouldn't necessarily apply the yod-dropping rule correctly.