Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby scgtrp » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:38 am UTC

Then you're doing it wrong, and being ignorant about it. Which is "precisely" what this thread is about.

Also E is a vowel (although admittedly one that makes widely different sounds in different languages); S/sigma are not.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:43 am UTC

scgtrp wrote:Then you're doing it wrong

scgtrp wrote:and being ignorant about it.

Do you ever present arguments to go with your conclusions?

scgtrp wrote:Also E is a vowel (although admittedly one that makes widely different sounds in different languages); S/sigma are not.

Irrelevant, as sigma does not signify a phoneme in this case.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby scgtrp » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:07 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Do you ever present arguments to go with your conclusions?

You're taking a character which has always been used to represent /s/, pretending it's an E[1], and then attempting to defend your obviously wrong usage of it[2].

[1] You're doing it wrong.
[2] You're being ignorant about it.

QED.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Dibley » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:17 am UTC

So, by that logic, puns are abominable and always fundamentally ignorant. My goodness you're a dipshit.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby scgtrp » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:24 am UTC

Puns are based on multiple meanings of a word or phrase. Σ has ONE MEANING, the consonant sound /s/. It's completely ridiculous to assign it a vowel sound just because it looks cool to you.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:26 am UTC

scgtrp wrote:You're taking a character which has always been used to represent /s/...

Except for exceptions like this one, right?

scgtrp wrote:... pretending it's an E ...

To the contrary, I have said that the sigma fulfills the function of an E. However, I do object to any definition of "E" that tries to conform usage to itself, rather than conforming itself to usage.

scgtrp wrote:QED.

Man, has it not occurred to you through that little wankfest that you're "wrongly" applying the trimmings of a definitive proof to an argument that is neither?

scgtrp wrote:Σ has ONE MEANING, the consonant sound /s/.

Shit, it's like arguing with a fundamentalist.

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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby scgtrp » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:31 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:I have said that the sigma fulfills the function of an E.

Will you please explain to me how an S fulfills the function of an E? Bscauss thsss ars not pronouncsabls words.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:34 am UTC

scgtrp, we all understand your point, but you must admit you're being a little pedantic. The idea of this thread isn't so much, "Let's complain about the ignorant plebs," but rather, "This annoys me, but how do you guys find it?"
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:36 am UTC

A sigma is nοt an S, sο I will nοt attempt tο shοw that S signifies any vοwel sοund in any particular cοntext.

(Though if you do continue to maintain that sigma is S, all previous claims about wrongness, ignorance, etc. apply.)
Last edited by TheGrammarBolshevik on Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:38 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby scgtrp » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:38 am UTC

I find it hard to turn down a debate, but last thing I'll say on this: A sigma is just as much a vowel as an S is.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:39 am UTC

... unless it is used in a context where it signifies a vowel phoneme.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:51 am UTC

But if I write "HELL0", then a zero is fulfilling the function of a vowel. From context, you are able to glean whether I meant to say "hell zero" or "hello". If you can successfully interpret it as the latter, the zero is a vowel in that context, quite like how "y" can be a vowel in some contexts. We've merely found a much more obscure exception to the rule.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Dibley » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:54 am UTC

Or perhaps it's like how 3 can be a vowel in some words, like 'dispens3r'.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:58 am UTC

Yes, exactly.

3 is a vowel. Tell your friends.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:59 am UTC

Fun fact: At least one of my posts here uses omicron in place of lowercase Os. And, unless you pronounced "cοntext" as /'kon.tɛkst/, you were doing it wrong. You ignorant sluts.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:11 am UTC

H. W. Fowler, A Dictionary of Modern English Usage wrote:PEDANTRY may be defined, for the purpose of this book, as the saying of things in language so learned or so demonstratively accurate as to imply a slur upon the generality, who are not capable or not desirous of such displays. The term, then, is obviously a relative one; my pedantry is your scholarship, his reasonable accuracy, her irreducible minimum of education, & someone else's ignorance. It is therefore not very profitable to dogmatize here on the subject; an essay would establish not what pedantry is, but only the place in the scale occupied by the author.


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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby GhostWolfe » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:42 am UTC

scgtrp wrote:
GhostWolfe wrote:It's a stylised E in a fashion that looks like sigma.

Allow me to illustrate how ridiculous that claim is, because it cannot be said in words alone.

So, what you're saying here is that letters which might, through design, look like something else (whilst retaining the obvious appearance of the original letter), cease being the letter they represent?

Or, another way: you dressed a dog up like a cat, so now it's not a dog anymore?

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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:16 am UTC

GhostWolfe wrote:Or, another way: you dressed a dog up like a cat, so now it's not a dog anymore?

No, that would be fucking stupid.

But what *wouldn't* be stupid is saying that, by dressing your dog up like a cat, it means 'cat' in this particular context.

scgtrp wrote:Will you please explain to me how an S fulfills the function of an E? Bscauss thsss ars not pronouncsabls words.

Funny you should use that example, considering that I have no problem at all understanding how to pronounce that last sentence of yours. And I would have even less of difficulty if s looked as similar to e as sigma does...

(Again, I ask you: do you find bilingual ambigrams, or even monolingual ones, as abhorrent as you find this usage of an E that looks like sigma? Do you find puns equally abhorrent, since words only have some rigidly limited set of meanings and any deviation from that is wrong and ignorant, apparently? Would you be as pissed off about writing a p like rho, or like a Russian lower-case R? How about writing a Russian /p/ in place of a lower-case English n? What? You mean they're fucking identical? Oh. Shit...)

scgtrp wrote:Which is "precisely" what this thread is about.

On the contrary, I was actually just today commenting on how maybe I should just go ahead and change this thread title to "Irrational pet peeves that prove how little you actually understand about how language works", or something like that. Because that's really what a lot of new posters end up doing here.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Dibley » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:05 am UTC

GhostWolfe wrote:Or, another way: you dressed a dog up like a cat, so now it's not a dog anymore?

Say you dress a person up as a lion. This doesn't make them a lion. But if you're performing a play, and the cast has a lion in it, it's perfectly acceptable to dress a person up as a lion, and proceed to treat them like a lion within the constrains of the plot. It would be damned stupid to say "this plot makes no sense! That's not really a lion, it's a guy in a lion suit!".
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Bobber » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:58 am UTC

This discussion has gone from obscure to retarded to just plain surreal.

But holy crap it's entertaining to read.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Monika » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:59 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:It's not precisely how I'd term it, but I think that the category "E" is a lot less stable and a lot less defined than you seem to take it.

And, to show precisely how I would, and have, termed it:

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:... the sigma signifies (sigmafies?) an allusion to fraternity names in addition to the normal functions of the letter E.

I didn't notice this the first time it was posted, "sigmafies" is really neat :D .

scgtrp wrote:Puns are based on multiple meanings of a word or phrase. Σ has ONE MEANING, the consonant sound /s/. It's completely ridiculous to assign it a vowel sound just because it looks cool to you.

ONE meaning? No no no. You're trying to steal the sum sign from mathematicians! :evil:
:wink:

I used to react similar as you do when in English comics turned around Rs and Ns were used to mean Rs and Ns instead of the /ja/ and /i/ vowels they are, when a Russian character was speaking. But I was wrong to assume the writer would be ignorant about how they are pronounced. He might be or might not be. But he can't assume his English audience would know the proper pronunciation of the cyrillic letters, so using them "correctly" would have been no use. They were used to signify that the person was speaking Russian (when the text was of course written in English) and were perfectly fit to reach this end.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby PM 2Ring » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:22 pm UTC

Monika wrote:I used to react similar as you do when in English comics turned around Rs and Ns were used to mean Rs and Ns instead of the /ja/ and /i/ vowels they are, when a Russian character was speaking. But I was wrong to assume the writer would be ignorant about how they are pronounced. He might be or might not be. But he can't assume his English audience would know the proper pronunciation of the cyrillic letters, so using them "correctly" would have been no use. They were used to signify that the person was speaking Russian (when the text was of course written in English) and were perfectly fit to reach this end.

I find this sort of thing a little annoying, but I agree that it serves its purpose, so I wouldn't say that it's wrong, exactly. I don't think this practice should be encouraged, as it can give people the wrong idea about what sound a glyph represents in the language it comes from. Unfortunately, I can offer no alternative for the poor comic letterers and other graphic artists who like to use this technique. With Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese or Indian speakers, it's easy enough to modify the Roman glyphs to give them an "accent", but that doesn't really work for Greek or Cyrillic.
Last edited by PM 2Ring on Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:27 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Velifer » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:24 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Anyway, I'll see your dog and raise you a pipe:

Where do you see a pipe?

It's typography. Relax.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Grop » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:13 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:With Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese or Indian speakers, it's easy enough to modify the Roman glyphs to give them an "accent", but that doesn't really work for Greek or Cyrillic.


Astérix didn't do it too wrong about Ancient Greek ;).

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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Monika » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:48 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:I don't think this practice should be encouraged, as it can give people the wrong idea about what sound a glyph represents in the language it comes from.

On the one hand this is true, on the other hand e.g. English-speaking people (who have not studied German pronunciation or been told) also have no idea how 'S' or 'J' is pronounced properly in German and would certainly pronounce it like in English ... so it's not really all that bad that they wouldn't know how Sigma or Russian Ya is pronounced.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Random832 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:23 pm UTC

scgtrp wrote:I'm saying that you can't just say "but it's not a sigma, it's an E that looks like a sigma!" and pretend it's a logical argument.

You can't just say "that's not a logical argument" and pretend it's a logical argument.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby PM 2Ring » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:58 pm UTC

Grop wrote:Astérix didn't do it too wrong about Ancient Greek ;).

Ok, I'll pay that. (Note the use of eta-looking shapes, not sigmas, to denote e :) ).

And then of course, there's Lithos, one of the more successful recently-designed fonts.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wall

Postby Monika » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:50 pm UTC

Apropos confusion of Cyrillic and Latin letters: http://www.taz.de/digitaz/.tom/tomdesta ... 2009/11/28 8)

The text reads:
1st panel: Oh la la, Klöpke, she must be really hot if you put her name on your butt!
2nd panel: Couldn't be any hotter, Müller!
3rd Panel: Klöpke has a Russian girl friend, I wouldn't have thought that.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:41 pm UTC

I just winced upon reading "just desserts."
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby Monika » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:58 pm UTC

What's wrong with it?
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby jaap » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:19 pm UTC

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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:21 pm UTC

A desert (pronounced like the after-dinner treat but spelled like the arid clime) is something that you deserve. Spelling it as "just desserts" communicates the same meaning through some sort of behaviorist metaphor, but it's distracting to people who recognize the original spelling through its significance in philosophy.

Ninja'd: Or that.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby Monika » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:59 pm UTC

Oh. I never heard of the what-you-deserve meaning.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby Makri » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:16 am UTC

If that was indeed a pun alluding to behaviorism and not a mere typo, I have to say I really like it.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:46 am UTC

"Could care less"
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby mojacardave » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:55 pm UTC

Something I've seen fairly recently, and very unfortunately for the guy in question:

A miscommunication of the phrase 'Fucking 'A', dude...'

Admittedly, that's a really annoying sentence to read, but I kind of forgive it, for comedy value, if the poster ignores all punctuation and capitalisation.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby Derek » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:05 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:"Could care less"

People who complain about "could care less" bug me :P
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby ShootTheChicken » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:36 pm UTC

It certainly seems more justified than most of the whinging in this thread. That isn't really a matter of a word changing meaning over time, but people stating the exact opposite of what they intend.
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby Iulus Cofield » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:17 am UTC

I like "I could care less" as a form of understatement similar to "I'm not a huge fan" meaning "I don't like that at all."
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Re: Little editing/grammar mistakes that drive you up the wa

Postby diabolo » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:24 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I like "I could care less" as a form of understatement similar to "I'm not a huge fan" meaning "I don't like that at all."

So "I could care less" meaning "I couldn't care more"?
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