עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

For the discussion of language mechanics, grammar, vocabulary, trends, and other such linguistic topics, in english and other languages.

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עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:18 pm UTC

A thread for everyone here who speaks or is learning one of the most utterly useless languages on the face of the Earth, in any of its forms or dialects. This language needs loan words just to swear!

פק שפות האחרות!

עברית לזכיה!
"With kindness comes naïveté. Courage becomes foolhardiness. And dedication has no reward. If you can't accept any of that, you are not fit to be a graduate student."

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Re: עברית!

Postby marngal555 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:50 am UTC

אני אוהבת לדבר עברית, אבל אני מפחדת שכאשר אהיה בישראל (בקיץ הזה!), לא אבין קללות שידברו לי

אתמול סיימתי חבור ארוך (בקירוב שלושים דפים) על צורני הנקבה בבינוני -- האלומורפים -- במקרא ובמשנה ובקומרן. הייתי טיפשה מאד וכתבתי את החבור בשנה ולא בחודשים אחדים.

סיימתי! אני שמחה מאד, למרות שאני לא מדברת עברית טוב

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Re: עברית!

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:13 am UTC

Post in the intro thread. - That hasn't been required for quite some time now.

אני לא יודע איך לדבר את הזה בעברית. ָאין לי עברית טוב מאוד.
"With kindness comes naïveté. Courage becomes foolhardiness. And dedication has no reward. If you can't accept any of that, you are not fit to be a graduate student."

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby marngal555 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:56 am UTC

הכל בסדר, אני אוהבת לדבר אתך בכל זאת. אני סולחת אותך. האם יהיו לך את התינוקות שלי? אנא, דבר כן

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:22 am UTC

I have a penchant for studying useless langauges on line, where would you recomend I start?

Is it true that the Hebrew dictionary contains no profanity save those adopted from Arabic? (I find it rather ard to believe)
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby erez » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:35 am UTC

Yes, it's true that the vast majority of swear words in Modern Hebrew are loanwords from various sources, mostly Yiddish, Arabic, Russian or English (depending on when the words were borrowed and by whom), although there are quite a few expressions which are bona fide native Hebrew.

But what's with the "useless language" thing? If you're actually interested in learning a language, speakers might be more willing to help you out if you don't start your post by referring to their language as useless, regardless of how you meant it to be taken. Just my thoughts.

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:30 pm UTC

and what astute thoughts they are, I was however mirroring the sentiments of אלי who wrote:

אלי wrote:A thread for everyone here who speaks or is learning one of the most utterly useless languages on the face of the Earth, in any of its forms or dialects. This language needs loan words just to swear!


Fear not, Magyar (My language) has even less speakers than Hebrew.

Swear-word etymology much appreciated though.
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby marngal555 » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:41 pm UTC

I'm not sure of a similar reference for modern Hebrew, but in my Biblical Hebrew travels I've found http://www.animatedhebrew.com/lectures/index.html to be VERY helpful... it's very thorough and goes into the specifics of rare verb categories I had trouble finding information about elsewhere, for instance. I'm not sure how good it would be for a beginner, but it might be worth a shot.

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby aleflamedyud » Wed May 07, 2008 2:56 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:I have a penchant for studying useless langauges on line, where would you recomend I start?

Is it true that the Hebrew dictionary contains no profanity save those adopted from Arabic? (I find it rather ard to believe)

I hear that Rosetta Stone is very good for Hebrew, and there are online ulpan classes as well.

Yes, it's true that the vast majority of swear words in Modern Hebrew are loanwords from various sources, mostly Yiddish, Arabic, Russian or English (depending on when the words were borrowed and by whom), although there are quite a few expressions which are bona fide native Hebrew.

But what's with the "useless language" thing? If you're actually interested in learning a language, speakers might be more willing to help you out if you don't start your post by referring to their language as useless, regardless of how you meant it to be taken. Just my thoughts.

כי רק פה כולם מדברים בעברית. ומקללים ברוסית, אנגלית, וערבית.

Translation: "'Cuz only here, everyone speaks in Hebrew. But curses in Russian, English, and Arabic." From Hadag Nachash's "Rak Po" (Only Here) (מרק פה של הדג נחש).
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Sat May 10, 2008 3:09 am UTC

alephlamedyud (Ali?) brought up the word "Ohev" [aleph yod he beit] in another forum. WTF is the purpose of the aleph? the initial vowel is carried by the yud no? Why put a place holder at the start of the word?
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun May 18, 2008 3:30 am UTC

Alef-lamed-yud spells the personal name "Eli".

Furthermore, the word "ohev" is spelled "א–ו–ה–ב". Alef-vav-heih-vet. There is no yud (י) in the word at all, and it doesn't even sound like there is unless you're pronouncing it with that Ashkenazi Yiddish accent that lengthens all the vowels. So the א is actually necessary to act as part of the consonantal root א–ה–ב, which forms all most of the words relating to loving or liking. The ו shows the 'o' vowel.
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Sun May 18, 2008 7:03 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Alef-lamed-yud spells the personal name "Eli".

Furthermore, the word "ohev" is spelled "א–ו–ה–ב". Alef-vav-heih-vet. There is no yud (י) in the word at all, and it doesn't even sound like there is unless you're pronouncing it with that Ashkenazi Yiddish accent that lengthens all the vowels. So the א is actually necessary to act as part of the consonantal root א–ה–ב, which forms all most of the words relating to loving or liking. The ו shows the 'o' vowel.


but if the vav caries the O, why is there an aleph, or does it just symbolise the root?
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Re: עברית!

Postby 11-73-3-33 » Thu May 22, 2008 7:29 am UTC

.
Last edited by 11-73-3-33 on Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:58 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Sorroth » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:26 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:Alef-lamed-yud spells the personal name "Eli".

Furthermore, the word "ohev" is spelled "א–ו–ה–ב". Alef-vav-heih-vet. There is no yud (י) in the word at all, and it doesn't even sound like there is unless you're pronouncing it with that Ashkenazi Yiddish accent that lengthens all the vowels. So the א is actually necessary to act as part of the consonantal root א–ה–ב, which forms all most of the words relating to loving or liking. The ו shows the 'o' vowel.


but if the vav caries the O, why is there an aleph, or does it just symbolise the root?


The Alef is there for the root, yes. Almost all hebrew words are derived from a three- or four-letter root, a shoresh, that represents what the word is essentially related to. I learnt this system with מלך, king. From this you get מלכות, kingdom; מלכה, queen; and למלוך, to rule, among others.
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:49 am UTC

I read that lamed represented "to". Does it mean this in the Dative (l'chayem - to life) or does it also make a noun a verb?

Hey, if I learn the dageshim and niqqudim, will I be able to read Hebrew perfectly? I.e. get all the sounds right, or is there stil some mystery there?
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby AntonGarou » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:20 pm UTC

Yes, it basically started out as a dative, for ex. לחיי החתן literally means "to the bridegroom's life!"with the overtones of "may (his life) be long, happy, etc." and changed into a standalone much like the English "cheers".

As to the niqqudim- yes, you should be able to make the sounds correctly, but be aware that very few Hebrew texts aimed above the elementary school age bracket are printed with them, unless the word has really weird pronunciation.Notable exceptions to this rule are the Torah and(I think) some of the earlier religious texts(Mishna, Gmara, etc.), but the problem with them is that their language is very different from the modern form- at least as much as Shakespeare's English is different from modern English.

PS.The Aleph is there generally to "carry" the vowel and show it is "clean" i.e. without a consonant- "O" rather then "VO" or "BO".When reading without niqqudim it shows the word is "Ohev" rather then the "Vehav"("and give", a bit archaic) which it would be without the Aleph
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:50 am UTC

Hmm, I'm slowly learning that. Seems that in yiddish, Aleph and Ayin are ok, but vav and yud are seen as weak, so when they take their vowel sounds (u and i repsctively) they're preceeded by a silent alpeh:

איז - iz - is

...Damn it, I think my computer's having issies with the א character (yiddish 'a' sound).

Surely they'd have text books with the niqqudim though.

Seriously, any given sound may map to 3 different Hebrew characters, and any hebrew character may map to possibly 3 sounds. AND you omit your vowels. Is this meant to be some sort of baptism of fire, so that only the really dedicated can learn?
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby AntonGarou » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:35 pm UTC

I think that it a combination of the facts that Hebrew has a lot less words then English by at least an order of magnitude and that our writing is much more phonetically transparent- exactly two cases of silent letters, and these are almost totally consistent across the language, no letters change consonant sounds(consider John Scalzi's cat Ghlughghy- pronounced "fluffy" for ex), etc.Generally when you see a vav or a yud after a consonant it means that the vowel on that consonant is "O" or "I" respectively- this what is termed "full spelling" in Hebrew, and about every writing without niqud is spelled rather then "lacking spelling" that omits them and as a result must have niqud to be understandable.
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:44 am UTC

so in if I see a vav, do I assume that the preceeding consinant is followed by and O and that the vav soubds liek an O?
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby AntonGarou » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:39 am UTC

Basically, yes, although vav at the head of words is an exception.
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:25 am UTC

So, can;t we just say that ther Vav sounds liek an O and the consonant has NO following vowel...and hence I assume the vav has no following vowel either. Is there some set of rules for this? Because I'm afraid to try and pronoucne hebrew words because of the vowels and varieties in spelling. On wiki I'll try and pronouce a word then look at the romanisation and blush.
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:20 am UTC

hay, I saw a word ayin-vav-lamed-mem (olem?), what does it mean?
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Outchanter » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:33 pm UTC

'Olam', עוֹלָם, world.

Has anyone else noticed that if you google online Hebrew dictionaries the highest ranking result (e.g. milon.co.il) doesn't include the vowels? It's a bit silly considering you need the vowels to learn pronunciation, and every printed dictionary I've seen does include them.

But with a bit more googling I've located one which does give the vowels, so even if all you know is the Hebrew word without vowels, it can give you both the translation and the pronunciation:

http://milon.morfix.co.il/

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:21 pm UTC

yaaaay! Thanks, so is shalom olam "peace on earth"?
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Outchanter » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:33 am UTC

I think that may just be "hello world" :D

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby TheSevenSerenities » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:35 pm UTC

כן, בדיוק

Yes, exactly.


If anyone is still interested in this topic, the letters of Vav and Yud were added in places where a Nikkud was needed.

Before the addition of those letters, when people didn't feel like writing Nikkud (Since writing on stone is tedious enough by itself) They added one of the letters (Yud or Vav) instead. So words such as עולם (Olam) were once written עלם with Nikkud, like this: עׁלְם (Without the space). If the world would have been written in either Ktiv Haser (Without Vav and Yud) and without NIkkud it could have been mistaken to another noun, עֱלֶם which looked the same.

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:44 am UTC

I thought that the niqud were added much later. Still have trouble with the vowel sounds which are indicated by both niqud and vav/yod. How did they write in pre-niqud hebrew?
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby TheSevenSerenities » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:34 am UTC

:oops: Sorry ZLVT, you are right, the nikkud came later. At first, the Vav and Yud were used instead of Nikkud, but as time went on and Nikkud was introduced, those letters were ommited at times (Though still, the letters were used to distinguish between similar words)

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:26 am UTC

Can anyone give a break down literal translation for the following?

תבינו שלא בשמיים מחליטים על חילוף הדורות
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Outchanter » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:59 am UTC

I had to look up some of the words; not sure if this translation makes sense...

תבינו - you (plural) will understand (root הבין
שלא = אשר לא - that not
בשמיים - in heaven
מחליטים - (they) decide (root החליט
על - about
חילוף הדורות = החילוף של הדורות
החילוף - the exchange/replacement
של - of
הדורות - the generations

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby TheSevenSerenities » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:15 am UTC

In case you need affirmation :P you are correct.

Just one thing - many verbs in hebrew in the future tense are used as commands, so תבינו can be used as in "יום אחד תבינו" as well as "תבין שאני לא יכול לעזור לך" ("One day you will understand" and "Understand that I cannot help you" respectively). This way is used only in slang though - in the correct way, the second phrase should be written as "הבן שאני לא יכול לעזור לך"

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby H.H » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:34 am UTC

Do not listen to the OP.

He quotes a rapper who does chocolate milk commercials in his sig.
.

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Thirdwave » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:14 am UTC

שלום עליכם!

אני חדש פה. אני סטודנט בבלשנות,ואני מדבר עברית וגרמנית. אני אוהב לדבר עברית! הייתי מדבר עברית עם אבי, אבל פסקתי ושכחתי אותו.

(hehe street cred) !הוא סוף הדרך xkcd

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Outchanter » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:54 am UTC

Thirdwave wrote:שלום עליכם!

אני חדש פה. אני סטודנט בבלשנות,ואני מדבר עברית וגרמנית. אני אוהב לדבר עברית! הייתי מדבר עברית עם אבי, אבל פסקתי ושכחתי אותו.

(hehe street cred) !הוא סוף הדרך xkcd

...ברוך הבא, גל שלישי! אני רוצה ללמוד גרמנית אלא אין לי עכשו הזמן

BTW, does anyone like listening to Hebrew songs? I've found some on Youtube with clearly audible lyrics, and Googling the translations seems like a good way to build vocabulary.

E.g: בעז בנאי - כל השבוע מרגיש כמו שבת

Many Disney songs also have multiple language translations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw-rQGWX7Ss (lyrics)

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Monika » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:13 pm UTC

Hi Hebrew-speaking people!

I am going through a lengthy riddle and one part of a task says

להאיר יחיד אחד חיפוש שבע פון אחד להכיל אגוי

This doesn't mean anything, does it?

(Up to now none of the foreign-looking text ever meant anything, it's probably going to be something like "replace the Hebrew letters by the equivalent number in the alphabet, then apply each pair as coordinates on some image, use the hex color codes of those pixels and add them, first converting them to base 9" ... or similar, guessing from what previous levels have been like. But I just want to make sure that it's not that *this time* it does have to be actually translated.)
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:48 pm UTC

Outchanter wrote:
BTW, does anyone like listening to Hebrew songs? I've found some on Youtube with clearly audible lyrics, and Googling the translations seems like a good way to build vocabulary.

E.g: בעז בנאי - כל השבוע מרגיש כמו שבת

Many Disney songs also have multiple language translations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw-rQGWX7Ss (lyrics)


I saw you don't mess with the Zohan, which motivated me to brave hebrew verb inflection (which really isn't that bad if you give up learning the vowels) but I also looked some of the songs, particularly Hine Ani Ba by HaDag Nachash. I also liked the Hebrew version of "be prepared" (lion king).
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Alexius » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:25 pm UTC

A couple of Hebrew questions of a more historical bent, hoping someone will answer them:
Anyone know why the modern Hebrew word for Germany is גרמניה (Germania, the Russian word) not אשכנז (Ashkenaz, the medieval Hebrew word)? Apologies for any misspellings.
I'e heard of a Purim prayer/tongue-twister called and beginning with the words Ots Koytsets. Apparently, the first line is "Ots koytsets ben koytsets ketsutsay le-katseyts"- but I can't find the rest of it. Can anyone help?

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby Monika » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:47 pm UTC

Monika wrote:להאיר יחיד אחד חיפוש שבע פון אחד להכיל אגוי

Apparently it requires translation and means something close to "I am one of seven. Search the one which is illuminated."

=> 7 world wonders => Lighthouse of Alexandria => The Pharos of Alexandria
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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby AnnotatedSnark » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:25 am UTC

Monika wrote:
Monika wrote:להאיר יחיד אחד חיפוש שבע פון אחד להכיל אגוי

Apparently it requires translation and means something close to "I am one of seven. Search the one which is illuminated."

=> 7 world wonders => Lighthouse of Alexandria => The Pharos of Alexandria


I'm not sure what the context is, but riddle or not, that is not a sentence.
Partly because פון and אגוי are not words, but not just.

It's actually quite impressive, in that no three words make up a phrase segment, and even the possible pairs don't mean anything much.

In short, in coherence and semantic content, it's equivalent to the English: "Lighting single one a search seven fon one to contain agoi".

Hope that helped :p
better safe than happy

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Re: עברית! (Hebrew, obviously)

Postby ZLVT » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:53 am UTC

Welcome AnnotatedSnark. A person to help with both my Dutch and Hebrew mayhaps?

Anyone see Zohan btw? What did everyone think?
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Originator of the DIY ASL tags


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