Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby jaap » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:32 am UTC

jaap wrote:I don't know about old Dutch, but be aware that the verb form 'wezen', or the imperative 'wees' are sometimes still used in Dutch now, e.g.
Wees gerust!
Het zal je kind maar wezen.


There-is-no-spoon wrote:Interestingly, "wees" is also used in Afrikaans for a child with no parents. Is that the same in Dutch?


Yes, the noun 'wees' means an orphan.

To complicate matters further:

- 'wezen' is the plural of the noun 'wees' (i.e. "orphans"), but 'wezen' can also be a singular noun, meaning "creature".
(It is analogous to "being", e.g. "human being".)

- 'wees' also happens to be the second/third person singular past tense of the verb 'wijzen', meaning "to point", and 'wezen' is the plural.
("Hij/jij wees naar het schoolbord" = "He/You pointed to the blackboard."; "Jullie/Wij wezen naar het schoolbord" = "You all /We pointed to the blackboard.")
Last edited by jaap on Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:00 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Moo » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:49 am UTC

Ha, I love how the languages differ and are yet so similar.

Die kind is wees na haar ouers dood is. Sy is 'n weeskind.
Ek gaan baie moeg wees vanaand (future tense of is).
Die mens is 'n baie emosionele wese.
BUT,
Ek wys* met my vinger na die swartbord.
Spoiler:
The child is orphaned after her parents died. She is an orphan.
I am going to be very tired tonight (future continuous tense of being)
Man is a very emotional being.
BUT,
I point with my finger to the black board.
I'm sure the correlation between the verb being and noun being (in all three languages) is not coincidental but I never really thought about it before. Interesting.


*We also use the similar "wyse" for "way", as in
Ek sou op 'n soortgelyke wyse opgetree het.
I would have reacted in a similar way.

I was wondering what the Dutch case is?
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby jaap » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:11 am UTC

Moo wrote:I'm sure the correlation between the verb being and noun being (in all three languages) is not coincidental but I never really thought about it before. Interesting.


Me neither. I only realised it when I wrote my previous post.

Moo wrote:*We also use the similar "wyse" for "way", as in
Ek sou op 'n soortgelyke wyse opgetree het.
I would have reacted in a similar way.

I was wondering what the Dutch case is?


Dutch has "wijze", though it is a little formal and it seems it's slowly being replaced by "manier".
"De wijze waarop men iets doet is net zo belangrijk als het resultaat."

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Moo » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:31 am UTC

Ah, yes, we use manier more informally too.
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby M.qrius » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:57 pm UTC

Moo wrote:BUT,
Ek wys* met my vinger na die swartbord.
In Dutch, it's only "wees" when it's past tense. Your sentence in Dutch would be: "Ik wijs met m'n vinger naar het schoolbord." which also includes the ij sound.
Don't you have a different form for the past tense?

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:32 am UTC

From my understanding only modal and auxiliary verbs have past tense (preterite) forms in Afrikaans. Others use a "het ... ge-" (have ... past participle) construct.
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Outchanter » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:18 am UTC

Ja, the past tense would be:
Ek het met my vinger na die swartbord gewys.

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:19 pm UTC

jaap wrote:
jaap wrote:I don't know about old Dutch, but be aware that the verb form 'wezen', or the imperative 'wees' are sometimes still used in Dutch now, e.g.
Wees gerust!
Het zal je kind maar wezen.


There-is-no-spoon wrote:Interestingly, "wees" is also used in Afrikaans for a child with no parents. Is that the same in Dutch?


Yes, the noun 'wees' means an orphan.

To complicate matters further:

- 'wezen' is the plural of the noun 'wees' (i.e. "orphans"), but 'wezen' can also be a singular noun, meaning "creature".
(It is analogous to "being", e.g. "human being".)

- 'wees' also happens to be the second/third person singular past tense of the verb 'wijzen', meaning "to point", and 'wezen' is the plural.
("Hij/jij wees naar het schoolbord" = "He/You pointed to the bla
ckboard."; "Jullie/Wij wezen naar het schoolbord" = "You all /We pointed to the blackboard.")

Cool.

For comparison, the German forms (I am partially guessing for the Dutch translations, though; I only did one year):

sein - zijn - to be
sei! - wees! - be!
war(st/en/t) - was/waren - was/were
gewesen - geweest - been

Waise - wees - orphan
Waisen - wezen - orphans

weise - wijze - wise, knowledgable (implying old age)

Wesen - wezen - being

wies - wees - (he) pointed at, showed the way
wiesen - wezen - (we, they) pointed at, showed the way
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:40 pm UTC

Wow, this also clears up a debate we had a while ago but nice. Didn't see that one comming.
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:59 pm UTC

Which debate does this clear up?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:08 pm UTC

In another thread. I thought that Zijn came to Dutch from the German Sein, replacing the word Wezen. However, I see now that German also uses wees, so clearly I was wrong.
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:50 pm UTC

I read the following: In "Indo-European" (either the hypothetical proto language or in many of the languages) there are/were three root words for "to be".
- German: sein, seid, Dutch: zijn, and I think is, ist, est, être, es, son, esta (Latin, French, Spanish) and so on may be in the same group, not sure
- English: to be, been, German: bin, bist, Dutch: ben, bent
- German: war, warst, wart, waren, gewesen, English: was, were, Dutch: was, waren, geweest
They explained it with I think Sanskrit where one could also see the three roots. I have actually problems seeing them in e.g. French, but whatever.

Anyway, these used to be three separate verbs. And then they got merged into one over time. That's why "to be" is so irregular and has so many very different forms in all Indo-European languages.
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:38 am UTC

In the original Latin it was esse: sum es est summus estis sunt. So I think I can see how Sein Seid Sind comes into it.
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Artemisia » Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:34 pm UTC

Monika wrote:For comparison, the German forms (I am partially guessing for the Dutch translations, though; I only did one year):
weise - wijze - wise, knowledgable (implying old age)

"[een] wijze" implies someone wise. "wijs" is the (default) adjective (and "wijze" is a possible form). Other than that, well done with the translations!

Moo: je hebt niet alleen Afrikaanse en Engelse vrienden, je hebt ook een Nederlands vriendinnetje :Y)
Die verstaat geen bal van het Afrikaans, maar lezen gaat prima! :mrgreen:
This too shall pass

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:43 pm UTC

I've got a question about Dutch, but I first have to start about Afrikaans and German:

As far as I know, Afrikaans only uses simple present and present perfect and dropped the other two tenses that express the past (simple past and past perfect), except for a handfull of frequently used irregular verbs (be, have, can, must, want and some more). (There is also some kind of future tense, I think it's different to Dutch.)

In German, this is actually similar: In spoken German, simple present is used for events in the present and future or if something is always, and present perfect is used for all events in the past. Simple past is only used in speaking for a couple of frequently used irregular verbs: be, have, can, must, want, know, may, think (for be, have and think also present perfect is used). Simple past for all almost all other and past perfect are only used in writing.

So, how about Dutch? Is simple past regularly used when speaking for all verbs? Or is only present perfect used in speaking?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:11 am UTC

by "when speaking" do you mean "in speech"?

As regards future tenses by the way, the Word "zullen" (zal zult zal zullen) expressed future. In Afrikaans the z became an s as often happens and the only word used now is "sal" as in "ik sal gaan" (iirc). In Dutch, Zullen expresses future desire. Sort of like saying "I plan to do everything in my power to make it happen" (or that's how it was explained to me) and they use "gaan" (go) to express certain future tense as in the English "I am going to ..."

so I think it's like:

"wij zullen winnen" - We will play our best and we full expect to win
"wij gaan winnen" - We bribed the referee

soo...when do we use "Werden"?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:20 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:by "when speaking" do you mean "in speech"?

Uuuh ... ??

soo...when do we use "Werden"?

When writing about the future, no matter if it's an intention ("going to") or something that will just happen.

When speaking: for events in the future, present and past that we guess/suspect.
Example: "Sie wird in ihrem Zimmer sein."
Literally: "She will be in her room."
Actual meaning: "I think she is in her room (right now)."
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Moo » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:21 am UTC

Monika wrote:
ZLVT wrote:by "when speaking" do you mean "in speech"?

Uuuh ... ??
I think he means in common speech, in other words colloquially, as opposed to official language rules.
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:51 am UTC

Moo wrote:
Monika wrote:
ZLVT wrote:by "when speaking" do you mean "in speech"?

Uuuh ... ??
I think he means in common speech, in other words colloquially, as opposed to official language rules.

And is "when speaking" wrong?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Moo » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:01 pm UTC

No but it often is simpler, more informal and in some cases even in direct conflict with formal language rules.

For example "lekker" is used in Afrikaans by just about any and every speaker to denote a lot more than it's textbook definition. See also slang and words that weren't in the dictionary 50 years ago but become part of a language due to being part of the spoken language on the street initially.

PS I don't know a damn thing about Nederlands I just wanted to clarify what I thought he meant, I'm not looking to argue with you.
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:27 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
Moo wrote:
Monika wrote:
ZLVT wrote:by "when speaking" do you mean "in speech"?

Uuuh ... ??
I think he means in common speech, in other words colloquially, as opposed to official language rules.

And is "when speaking" wrong?


"when speaking" isn't wrong, but I wasn't sure what you meant. "used in speaking for a couple of frequently used irregular verbs: be, have, " I wasn't sure if you meant "in speak" or "when speaking about..."

The sentence was correct, but "in speech" would be slightly easier.

So how do you express a certain future? Present tense?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:13 pm UTC

In German, we use simple present to express certain events in the future as well as what we are going to do. E.g. we would say "During my vacation [which is next month] I go to Italy." instead of "I will go" / "I am going to go/travel there", or we would say "The supermarket X, which was closed for renovation for three months, opens again next Monday" instead of "will open again". (There are no progressive tenses as in English.)



But I would still like to know from some Dutch person whether present perfect is the only tense for the past that is used in speech.
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Moo » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:39 pm UTC

Sorry, Monika, I misunderstood what you had asked previously when I tried to answer.
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby M.qrius » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:56 am UTC

Monika wrote:But I would still like to know from some Dutch person whether present perfect is the only tense for the past that is used in speech.

I'm Dutch, and although I'm not totally sure what all the English descriptions like present perfect mean, I do think we use simple past. Some random examples, not using special verbs:
Hij liep erheen. -- He walked there.
Hij sprong van de muur af. -- He jumped off of the wall.
Hij typte zijn bericht, terwijl hij tussendoor gitaar probeerde te spelen. -- He typed his post, whilst trying to play guitar in between.

I'm not quite sure if I got the tenses on the English translations right...

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:33 am UTC

present - I go home - Ik ga naar huis
Present perfect - I have gone home - Ik heb naar huis gegaan
Past - I went home - Ik ging naar huis
Past perfect - I have gone home - Ik had naar huis gegaan

simple / continuous is the difference between "I go" and "I am going"

So, compared to English, how much more or less do you use the "heb ... gegaan" construct?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby jaap » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:50 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:present - I go home - Ik ga naar huis
Present perfect - I have gone home - Ik ben naar huis gegaan
Past - I went home - Ik ging naar huis
Past perfect - I had gone home - Ik was naar huis gegaan

simple / continuous is the difference between "I go" and "I am going"

So, compared to English, how much more or less do you use the "ben ... gegaan" construct?


Fixed.
Dutch has a slightly odd construct for continous:
I am reading a book - Ik ben een boek aan het lezen.
I was reading a book - Ik was een boek aan het lezen.

Note that I didn't use 'going' in this example because although it would be perfectly grammatical, it would sound stilted. Instead of "Ik ben naar huis aan het gaan" we would say "Ik ben op weg naar huis". The English "I am going home" is also used for a future event rather than a continuous present action, but in that case the Dutch would just be the present "Ik ga naar huis".

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:16 am UTC

...Damn, I read it was "heb .. gegaan" Hmm, the site's credible..must have been tired that night.

Where do you say "Ik ben een boek aan het lezen" and "Ik zit een boek te lezen"? I never know which to use, I was advised to use the 'te' form when possible

EDIT: Just checked the present perfect in dutch. Any rules for when they take Zijn and Hebben?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby jaap » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:49 pm UTC

ZLVT wrote:...Damn, I read it was "heb .. gegaan" Hmm, the site's credible..must have been tired that night.

Where do you say "Ik ben een boek aan het lezen" and "Ik zit een boek te lezen"? I never know which to use, I was advised to use the 'te' form when possible


The 'te' form is a little more informal, but I think both are fine. With the 'te' form you have a choice between 'zit' and 'sta', depending on whether you are sitting or standing while doing the activity. This means also that activities that involve travel can't really use that construction.

ZLVT wrote:EDIT: Just checked the present perfect in dutch. Any rules for when they take Zijn and Hebben?


I had to look this up, cause it's one of those things one just knows without thinking.
According to http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/tekst/33, there are some rules of thumb:

zijn:
a) intransitive verbs that express a change in state/condition
(aankomen, bevriezen, gaan ('zich verplaatsen'), groeien, komen, ontsnappen, opstaan, schrikken, sterven, stijgen, stikken, vallen, verouderen, verschijnen, vertrekken, vluchten, worden.)
b) some specific verbs always use 'zijn'
(blijken, blijven, gebeuren, geschieden, (ge)lukken, mislukken, slagen, voorvallen, zijn)

hebben:
a) transitive verbs
(e.g. lezen, hebben, maken)
b) intransitive verbs that do not express a change in state/condition.
(hangen, liggen, slapen, zitten, denken, kijken)

There are also verbs that can be both transitive or intransitive, and can therefore use both:
Ik heb de tekening veranderd. - I have changed the drawing.
De tekening is veranderd. - The drawing has changed.

Verbs denoting travel or movement can also use both, and that puts the emphasis on the activity (hebben) or on the destination (zijn). Unfortunately English often uses different tenses in these cases to get the same meaning:
Ik heb nog nooit gevlogen. - I've never flown before.
Ik ben naar Rome gevlogen. - I flew to Rome. (lit. I have flown to Rome)
We hebben een uurtje gefietst - We went cycling for an hour.(lit. We have cycled for an hour.)
We zijn terug naar huis gefietst. - We cycled back home. (lit. We have cycled back home.)

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:20 pm UTC

ZLVT wrote:Any rules for when they take Zijn and Hebben?

They use zijn when in German sein is used and hebben when haben is used in German.

Uh, what are you saying, this didn't help you much? :mrgreen: :runs:
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:23 pm UTC

are you sure they use them for the same words?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Monika » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:38 pm UTC

ZLVT wrote:are you sure they use them for the same words?

In German, the present perfect is built just like in Dutch, either by the form of to be (sein) + participle or by the form of to have (haben) + participle. There are no exact rules when to use which, there are approximate rules the same as the one that have been posted for Dutch. One can generally say that when the German verb and the Dutch verb are similar, e.g. to go = gehen = gaan, then they also use the same helping verb (sein/haben) in German as in Dutch (zijn/hebben) to build the present perfect. There may be exceptions, but I can't think of one.
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby inktvis » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:56 am UTC

Ooo Nederlands! Ik kom uit België en woon in Nieuw Zeeland. Ik heb Germaanse Talen: Engels en Zweeds gestudeerd en ben enorm geinteresseerd in taalkunde, vooral fonologie en sociolinguïstiek. Heel interessant om Afrikaans te lezen!

Hopelijk beschouwen jullie Vlaams niet als een streektaal :D

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby M.qrius » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:19 pm UTC

inktvis wrote:Ooo Nederlands! Ik kom uit België en woon in Nieuw Zeeland. Ik heb Germaanse Talen: Engels en Zweeds gestudeerd en ben enorm geinteresseerd in taalkunde, vooral fonologie en sociolinguïstiek. Heel interessant om Afrikaans te lezen!

Hopelijk beschouwen jullie Vlaams niet als een streektaal :D

Het scheelt dat je de uitspraak niet hoort op een forum :P
(Vlaams klinkt altijd zo... Vlaams. Maar welkom op het forum :P)

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby inktvis » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:27 am UTC

Hehe, bedankt. Hetzelfde kan natuurlijk gezegd worden over de Nederlandse uitspraak :D

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Moo » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:20 am UTC

Ek het al telkemale gehoor dat Afrikaans en Vlaams besonder soortgelyk is; selfs meer as Afrikaans en Nederlands. Ek wonder of dit waar is?
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby M.qrius » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:38 am UTC

inktvis wrote:Hehe, bedankt. Hetzelfde kan natuurlijk gezegd worden over de Nederlandse uitspraak :D

Uhu :P
Maar wij zijn met meer? xD

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby ZLVT » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:23 pm UTC

Moo wrote:Ek het al telkemale gehoor dat Afrikaans en Vlaams besonder soortgelyk is; selfs meer as Afrikaans en Nederlands. Ek wonder of dit waar is?


I could understand the Dutch, but I swear that's a mystery to me...

"I have heard as [?] that Afrikaans and Flemish are [?]; [?] more than Afrikaans and Dutch. I wonder which it is?"
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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby Moo » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:49 pm UTC

Moo wrote:Ek het al telkemale gehoor dat Afrikaans en Vlaams besonder soortgelyk is; selfs meer as Afrikaans en Nederlands. Ek wonder of dit waar is?
I have often (many times) heard that Afrikaans and Flemish are particularly similar; even more than Afrikaans and Nederlands. I wonder if it is true?
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby inktvis » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:20 pm UTC

Ik denk dat de uitspraak van Vlaams en Afrikaans iets dichter bij elkaar liggen, maar wanneer ik iemand die als moedertaal Afrikaans heeft Engels hoor spreken, denk ik bijna altijd dat zij Nederlands zijn.

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Re: Spreek Nederlands en Praat Afrikaans (Dutch & Afrikaans)

Postby M.qrius » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:39 pm UTC

Ik heb nog nooit iemand Afikaans horen spreken... maar misschien zou ik denken dat ze Vlaams zijn? Als in, je hoort vooral dat het niet helemaal je eigen taal is...


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