Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

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Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Vox Imperatoris » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:43 am UTC

Normally, when oe is in a word, e.g. foetus in British English, it is just pronounced as an "e". But names like Zoe and Chloe are pronounced "Zo-e" and "Chlo-e," not "Ze" or "Chle." (Which would be very strange).

How did this come to be?
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby GhostWolfe » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:54 am UTC

I think both Zoe and Chloe are from Greek, but feotus is from Latin. They brought their respective pronunciations with them.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Simbera » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:48 am UTC

Also, I'm pretty sure that it's technically fœtus - with the 'oe' diphthong, not two separate letters. And 'œ' is always, to my knowledge, pronounced 'ee'.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby goofy » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:02 pm UTC

The oe in foetus is an English spelling from the 16th century, probably due to a mistaken etymology. The Latin word is fētus.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Marleen » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:14 pm UTC

Maybe this helps:

(English - German)

- Zoe - Zoe (or with diaeresis: Zoë)
- Chloe - Chloe (Chloë)
- Noel - Noel (Noël)
- aloe - Aloe

but

- foetus - Fötus
- phoenix - Phönix
- amoeba - Amöbe

For us, it's easy: where "oe" is an Umlaut, we pronounce the English diphtong "ee"; where it is two seperate letters in German, they're seperate in English as well...

But anyway, there's the third case of "oe" translating to a longer "o":

- toe
- Poe

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Asleep or Wrong » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:54 am UTC

It should probably be noted though that at various periods throughout Roman history, Latin orthography was ambiguous and people did strange things with spelling. OE had lost its diphthongal quality early on and substituted and was substituted for and by E. A good book on the subject is Vox Latina by W. Sidney Allen.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby steewi » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:29 am UTC

Words like phoenix from Greek have a different original spelling to words like Zoe. Phoenix comes from Φοῖνιξ - with short vowels, easily diphthongised, but Zoe is Ζωή - with long vowels which are not diphthongised coming into English.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Tropylium » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:00 pm UTC

steewi wrote:Words like phoenix from Greek have a different original spelling to words like Zoe. Phoenix comes from Φοῖνιξ - with short vowels, easily diphthongised, but Zoe is Ζωή - with long vowels which are not diphthongised coming into English.

Nothing to do with Greek vowel length I'd wager, but with phoenix being mediated by Latin.

Foe etc. are simply along the same model as cone etc. (apparently fo seemed too short for Norman scribes).

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Number3Pencils » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:44 am UTC

I don't know Greek, but I know a fair amount of miscellany about other languages in general and some about Greek, and I think it's like this: Words where oe is pronounced as "ee" are from the "ioticized omicron" spelling in Greek, οι, which was originally pronounced like "oy", but got simplified into just an "ee" sound. And then when scribes used Greek-derived words in Latin, they wrote the οι down as an œ. They followed a similar procedure with αι, making it æ. In a lot of our words (œcology, homœopathy, pædiatrician, diarrhœa), these have been simplified to just an e, but sometimes (œnophile, onomatopœia, Pangæa, phœnix) it's been retained, and sometimes (palæontology, fœtus, æsthetics) no one quite agrees. Whereas, I suppose, names like Zoe are derived from something entirely different: I didn't know it before, but steewi says it's from Greek "Ζωή". And it's probably a safe bet that Chloe was once "Χλωή". Not ioticized, but rather a regular "e" sound afterwards (η - eta). And they really had to transliterate that as an e as well.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:44 pm UTC

I teach English in Long Island and have had a number of parents ask me how to properly pronounce "Zoe". Some parents claimed that because it was a name (proper noun), the basic rules of pronunciation need not be followed.

Sorry. Not so fast.

Could you imagine if we changed these to suit our purpose:

Joe (would be Joey)?
Toe (would be Toey)?
Tuckahoe (Village in Westchester) would be Tuckahee?
Potatoes (would be potatees)?

Imagine two hunters yelling, "shoot the doe-ee!!" when they mean doe (as in female deer)?

By the way, just take a look at all the words that end in "oe" and how they're pronounced here:
http://www.morewords.com/ends-with/oe/

I tell the parents that they should have done their homework BEFORE filling out the certificate of birth. The good part is that NY charges a small fee to correct spelling errors. This way when the youngster find out their parents goofed, they can make any easy change to Zoey or Zoe with the proper "umlaut" or "dieresis".

I'm shocked that these discussions even exist.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Alcas » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:48 am UTC

Are you seriously saying you expect English spelling and pronunciation to be consistent?
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:04 am UTC

Alcas wrote:Are you seriously saying you expect English spelling and pronunciation to be consistent?


When there's a clear and concise rule, use it. This one's a no brainer.

Show me 2 examples of words that END with "oe" that are phonetically pronounced as "ee". And please spare me the "Chloe" example. No more made up names while the parents were half in the bag after 3 bottles of wine.

By the way, I used to teach in Queens and some of the names these kids had would make your head spin in disbelief. How would you pronounce Anisewelszae?

Yes, I had to deal with these names on a daily basis and get bashed by the parents (that actually showed up) to conferences.

When it's time to name a child, do some homework other than reading an obscure "New Baby Names For The New Millennium!" book at Borders.

Now let me get back to my bottle of single malt along with my crackers.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:02 am UTC

englishteachny wrote:By the way, just take a look at all the words that end in "oe" and how they're pronounced here:
http://www.morewords.com/ends-with/oe/

Haha, langauge maven fail. I love it.

Did you yourself look at those words? There are two completely different predominant pronunciations, such as the one in "shoe" compared with the one in "doe". And there's at least one that does in fact rhyme with the supposedly "ignorant" or "incorrect" pronunciation of names like Chloe and Zoe, which is pahoehoe.

Do your own damn homework before claiming that there's anything like "a [single] clear and concise rule" for the pronunciation of any particular combination of vowels in English words.

englishteachny wrote:I tell the parents that they should have done their homework BEFORE filling out the certificate of birth.

Also, good job being the sort of teacher that leads students and parents alike to dislike and resent the whole of academia for its arrogance and lack of understanding of the people it's supposed to serve.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby raike » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:34 am UTC

Just out of curiosity, isn't "oe" in Dutch pronounced as "oo" as in the English "boot"?
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby csam » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:13 pm UTC

I just wanted to add the point that the "oe" sound distinction isn't even consistent between British and American English (and other variations, I'm assuming). After we (my American friends and I) had grown up hearing/saying "ehd-ipus" for Oedipus, we had quite a jolt the day we started reading Oedipus Rex with our South African teacher, who kept pronouncing it "eed-ipus rex".

I'm always assumed that the different pronunciations between shoe, toe, chloe, etc arise from differences in origins, and just the generally unorganized nonsense that is English spelling. I want to attribute the Chloe/Zoe distinction to the general dropping of accents in English - after all, why do we write "Rene" or "Renee" and pronounce the "ay" on the end anyway? Pronouncing the two vowels in Chloë would make perfect sense if we were to put the umlaut over it, but we just don't bother with that.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:16 pm UTC

raike wrote:Just out of curiosity, isn't "oe" in Dutch pronounced as "oo" as in the English "boot"?
Just felt like saying that...


Yes. And that would make Zoe equal "ZOO". As would be the case with "shoe". Do you want to tell your friend you're taking your daughter "zoo" to the "zoo"?

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:40 pm UTC

englishteachny wrote:Yes. And that would make Zoe equal "ZOO". As would be the case with "shoe". Do you want to tell your friend you're taking your daughter "zoo" to the "zoo"?

As I said before, there are already at least three attested English pronunciations of word-terminal "-oe", and /uː/ is but one of them.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Silas » Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:41 pm UTC

englishteachny wrote:And please spare me the "Chloe" example. No more made up names while the parents were half in the bag after 3 bottles of wine.

Excuse me? Made up names? Chloe is a biblical name (1 Cor. 1:11). Zoe is a Greek name, carried by a saint in the era of Diocletian (3rd century). They're not innovations. (And so what if they had been? Names have to come from somewhere.)

And if you're an English teacher, you should know the spelling convention on loan words- especially names- is to preserve the original spelling (if originally written with an alphabet), even when the modern pronunciation differs from the original.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Cryopyre » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:16 am UTC

I know someone with an oe in their last name, which is Boesel.

The oe is pronounced like an ae, however, so you get a name that sounds exactly like basil.

I have no idea how this came to be.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:24 am UTC

That one probably comes from a German name or something, and so the pronunciation has been mangled all to hell in one way or another.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Cryopyre » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:30 am UTC

I figured it was foreign, he's from Canada, so I had figured French (maybe). However, I think German might be right on the mark.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:30 pm UTC

Silas wrote:
englishteachny wrote:And please spare me the "Chloe" example. No more made up names while the parents were half in the bag after 3 bottles of wine.

Excuse me? Made up names? Chloe is a biblical name (1 Cor. 1:11). Zoe is a Greek name, carried by a saint in the era of Diocletian (3rd century). They're not innovations. (And so what if they had been? Names have to come from somewhere.)

And if you're an English teacher, you should know the spelling convention on loan words- especially names- is to preserve the original spelling (if originally written with an alphabet), even when the modern pronunciation differs from the original.


Can someone just show me a solid example where an English word ends with "oe" and is pronounced oh-ee? Just one example so I can answer a parent differently next time. I never claimed to know everything but I
can't stomach when the rules are "bent" in such a way to benefit someone that was too lazy to do their homework.

And again, no mystical or mythical names of people, dogs & cats, lizards or goldfish. And a link to a source would be helpful too. Thanks.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby csam » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:23 pm UTC

englishteachny wrote:Can someone just show me a solid example where an English word ends with "oe" and is pronounced oh-ee? Just one example so I can answer a parent differently next time. I never claimed to know everything but I
can't stomach when the rules are "bent" in such a way to benefit someone that was too lazy to do their homework.

And again, no mystical or mythical names of people, dogs & cats, lizards or goldfish. And a link to a source would be helpful too. Thanks.

Look, the umlaut just isn't there. Let it go. Why don't we pronounce Noel like nole? Because we borrowed the word from the French, who write it Noël (though the Online Etymology Dictionary lists the original Middle French word as just noel). Why is naive not pronounced like nave? Because we drop the ï from the French naïve (well, naïf - naïve is the feminine version). Sorry both of my examples are French, but that's the language other than English I'm most familiar with. Chloe doesn't bend the rules, it follows the grand English tradition of borrowing words and then spelling them in a way that's more comfortable for us. And the fact that you think naming your kid Chloe is "lazy" and reflects ignorance is frankly insulting.

English borrows names and words freely, which is one of the reasons I love the language and find it so rich. It leads to spellings that don't fit the "rules" we have in our head (though it has already been established that words ending in "oe" can be pronounced in a variety of ways that don't fit with any one rule). Why can't Zoe and Chloe be solid examples? These parents didn't just make them up, out of thin air.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby goofy » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:43 pm UTC

englishteachny wrote:Can someone just show me a solid example where an English word ends with "oe" and is pronounced oh-ee?


Chloe from Greek χλόη "green shoot"

Zoe from Greek ζωή "life"

These aren't nonce names made up by drunk people; they have long histories.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Silas » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:52 am UTC

englishteachny wrote:Can someone just show me a solid example where an English word ends with "oe" and is pronounced oh-ee?

You shouldn't need one. Zoe and Chloe are both long-established names in English, with fixed spelling and pronunciation. It's like me complaining that suet (rhymes with do it) is misspelled, because no "real" word has that pronunciation of -ue-.

And again, no mystical or mythical names of people, dogs & cats, lizards or goldfish.

Did you really just slam every name that comes from scripture? Names like Gabriel, Michael, Adam, Eve, Isaac, Abe, Paul, John, and Joseph? And names from mythology and legend, like Arthur, Penelope, and Alfred? What kind of names do you approve of?

And a link to a source would be helpful too. Thanks.

Are you fucking serious? You're too lazy to look up a bible verse on your own? Just fucking google it.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Cryopyre » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:19 am UTC

I just want to add:
Your ass just got beat!

Oh, the lulz!
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:31 pm UTC

Silas wrote:
And a link to a source would be helpful too. Thanks.

Are you fucking serious? You're too lazy to look up a bible verse on your own? Just fucking google it.

No need to google anything, as a page including the supposedly "incorrect" pronunciation of -oe was already linked to in the shitty teacher's very first post.

So yeah, clearly very lazy, and more with an ax to grind* than with any actual linguistic input or discussion to be had, if he or she can't even bother reading the very link posted to allegedly disprove our point...

* An ax which, it seems, is far more racist or classist in its origins than it is anything even remotely the proper purvey of linguistics. It's these "stupid" parents who "don't do their homework" before giving their kids "made up" names. You know, unlike all those other names which have evidently existed since the very beginning of time, handed down to us from the great Jah Himself...
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Velifer » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:03 pm UTC

He's just pissed off because his name is Schuyler Worcestershire St. John Whakatane (ˈskaɪlɚ ˈwʊstəʃər sɪndʒən ɸakaˈtaːne).

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:43 pm UTC

Cryopyre wrote:I just want to add:
Your ass just got beat!

Oh, the lulz!


Just waiting for an example to support the Zoe and Chloe pronunciation. If the final response is "we don't need one" or "google it", we can put this conversation to rest.

And how, in dear heaven's name, did this debate get in to biblical names? Please posters... stick to the topic. This is NOT a religious topic. I repeat NOT.

CAN ANYONE FIND A SOLID EXAMPLE OR RULE OF ENGLISH TO SUPPORT "OE", WHEN USED AT THE END OF A WORD, BEING SOUNDED OUT AS "OH-EE"?

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby goofy » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:19 pm UTC

englishteachny wrote:Just waiting for an example to support the Zoe and Chloe pronunciation.


Why are those two words not good enough?

Anyway here are more that the OED gives as being pronounced /əʊi/ ("oh-ee"):

kalanchoe "A sub-shrub of the genus so called, belonging to the family Crassulaceæ"
mahoe "A small bushy tree of the family Violaceae"
pahoehoe "Smooth, undulating, or corded volcanic lava"

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Schmorgluck » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:48 pm UTC

englishteachny wrote:CAN ANYONE FIND A SOLID EXAMPLE OR RULE OF ENGLISH TO SUPPORT "OE", WHEN USED AT THE END OF A WORD, BEING SOUNDED OUT AS "OH-EE"?

It's totally irrelevant anyway. Proper names don't have to bend to the pronunciation rules of a particular language but the one they originate from, or a well-established usage (case of Chloe and Zoe). As pointed by goofy, it's also the case of some loanwords.

You make me think of those teachers I've seen in France who insisted on pronouncing just about every name using French pronunciation rules, turning for exemple the Breton first name Goulven's pronunciation /gulvɛn/ into /gulvɛ̃/.

Tell me, if one of your pupils has a foreign first name, let's say the Japanese Nanase, do you insist on pronouncing it something improper like /naneIs'/ instead of /nanas̬e/, even after having been told what the proper pronunciation was?
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Silas » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:04 am UTC

englishteachny wrote:And how, in dear heaven's name, did this debate get in to biblical names?
This is how:
englishteachny wrote:And please spare me the "Chloe" example. No more made up names while the parents were half in the bag after 3 bottles of wine.

Silas wrote:Excuse me? Made up names? Chloe is a biblical name (1 Cor. 1:11). Zoe is a Greek name, carried by a saint in the era of Diocletian (3rd century). They're not innovations.

englishteachny wrote:And again, no mystical or mythical names of people, dogs & cats, lizards or goldfish.

All while asking for a link to Corinthians. Punk.

Chloe is the reason I think you're full of shit. The name is attested in the King James Bible, and essentially every version since then, spelled c-h-l-o-e, but you still say it's misspelled. Four hundred years of tradition- by definition- don't make spelling mistakes. That's self-important English teacher territory.
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:00 am UTC

Schmorgluck wrote:
englishteachny wrote:CAN ANYONE FIND A SOLID EXAMPLE OR RULE OF ENGLISH TO SUPPORT "OE", WHEN USED AT THE END OF A WORD, BEING SOUNDED OUT AS "OH-EE"?

It's totally irrelevant anyway. Proper names don't have to bend to the pronunciation rules of a particular language but the one they originate from, or a well-established usage (case of Chloe and Zoe). As pointed by goofy, it's also the case of some loanwords.

You make me think of those teachers I've seen in France who insisted on pronouncing just about every name using French pronunciation rules, turning for exemple the Breton first name Goulven's pronunciation /gulvɛn/ into /gulvɛ̃/.

Tell me, if one of your pupils has a foreign first name, let's say the Japanese Nanase, do you insist on pronouncing it something improper like /naneIs'/ instead of /nanas̬e/, even after having been told what the proper pronunciation was?


Most Japanese parents are smart enough to consult with someone on how to properly translate the name in to English.

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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:01 am UTC

englishteachny wrote:CAN ANYONE FIND A SOLID EXAMPLE OR RULE OF ENGLISH TO SUPPORT "OE", WHEN USED AT THE END OF A WORD, BEING SOUNDED OUT AS "OH-EE"?

YOU ALREADY DID! THERE'S AN EXAMPLE RIGHT IN THE LINK YOU SO KINDLY PROVIDED IN YOUR FIRST POST!

Now fucking read what people say to you or leave, because as it stands you're pretty much just trolling at this point.
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englishteachny
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:07 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
englishteachny wrote:CAN ANYONE FIND A SOLID EXAMPLE OR RULE OF ENGLISH TO SUPPORT "OE", WHEN USED AT THE END OF A WORD, BEING SOUNDED OUT AS "OH-EE"?

YOU ALREADY DID! THERE'S AN EXAMPLE RIGHT IN THE LINK YOU SO KINDLY PROVIDED IN YOUR FIRST POST!

Now fucking read what people say to you or leave, because as it stands you're pretty much just trolling at this point.


I like your use of the F word in a forum that is read by children! Ah the power of the Internet and unmoderated, uncensored and unadulterated ramblings.

Speaking of F though, Foe? Is that foe or fo-eee? Judged on your post, would that make me your Faux-ee?

englishteachny
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:10 am UTC

Silas wrote:
englishteachny wrote:And how, in dear heaven's name, did this debate get in to biblical names?
This is how:
englishteachny wrote:And please spare me the "Chloe" example. No more made up names while the parents were half in the bag after 3 bottles of wine.

Silas wrote:Excuse me? Made up names? Chloe is a biblical name (1 Cor. 1:11). Zoe is a Greek name, carried by a saint in the era of Diocletian (3rd century). They're not innovations.

englishteachny wrote:And again, no mystical or mythical names of people, dogs & cats, lizards or goldfish.

All while asking for a link to Corinthians. Punk.

Chloe is the reason I think you're full of shit. The name is attested in the King James Bible, and essentially every version since then, spelled c-h-l-o-e, but you still say it's misspelled. Four hundred years of tradition- by definition- don't make spelling mistakes. That's self-important English teacher territory.


Please. I'll ask you again. Don't turn this in to a religious posting. I merely responded with a comment on the pronunciation to the word "Zoe". I will NOT respond to posts reciting the Bible. This is NOT the forum.

englishteachny
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:13 am UTC

Schmorgluck wrote:
englishteachny wrote:CAN ANYONE FIND A SOLID EXAMPLE OR RULE OF ENGLISH TO SUPPORT "OE", WHEN USED AT THE END OF A WORD, BEING SOUNDED OUT AS "OH-EE"?

It's totally irrelevant anyway. Proper names don't have to bend to the pronunciation rules of a particular language but the one they originate from, or a well-established usage (case of Chloe and Zoe). As pointed by goofy, it's also the case of some loanwords.

You make me think of those teachers I've seen in France who insisted on pronouncing just about every name using French pronunciation rules, turning for exemple the Breton first name Goulven's pronunciation /gulvɛn/ into /gulvɛ̃/.

Tell me, if one of your pupils has a foreign first name, let's say the Japanese Nanase, do you insist on pronouncing it something improper like /naneIs'/ instead of /nanas̬e/, even after having been told what the proper pronunciation was?


It's not irrelevant to me. I asked a simple question here. "It's irrelevant" is worse than telling me to Google it. A simple "I can't find one" would be fine.

englishteachny
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:19 am UTC

goofy wrote:
englishteachny wrote:Just waiting for an example to support the Zoe and Chloe pronunciation.


Why are those two words not good enough?

Anyway here are more that the OED gives as being pronounced /əʊi/ ("oh-ee"):

kalanchoe "A sub-shrub of the genus so called, belonging to the family Crassulaceæ"
mahoe "A small bushy tree of the family Violaceae"
pahoehoe "Smooth, undulating, or corded volcanic lava"



Please provide links to pronunciation of the words to support your responses.

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Cryopyre
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby Cryopyre » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:19 am UTC

Err... Troller anyone?

Edit:

Also
I like your use of the F word in a forum that is read by children! Ah the power of the Internet and unmoderated, uncensored and unadulterated ramblings.


He is a moderator dumbass.
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englishteachny
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Re: Origin of pronunciation of oe in names?

Postby englishteachny » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:22 am UTC

Silas wrote:
englishteachny wrote:Can someone just show me a solid example where an English word ends with "oe" and is pronounced oh-ee?

You shouldn't need one. Zoe and Chloe are both long-established names in English, with fixed spelling and pronunciation. It's like me complaining that suet (rhymes with do it) is misspelled, because no "real" word has that pronunciation of -ue-.

And again, no mystical or mythical names of people, dogs & cats, lizards or goldfish.

Did you really just slam every name that comes from scripture? Names like Gabriel, Michael, Adam, Eve, Isaac, Abe, Paul, John, and Joseph? And names from mythology and legend, like Arthur, Penelope, and Alfred? What kind of names do you approve of?

And a link to a source would be helpful too. Thanks.

Are you fucking serious? You're too lazy to look up a bible verse on your own? Just fucking google it.


I'm really not feeling your use of the F word in the same sentence as "the Bible". Even if you're not a church going sort of person, any chance you can refrain from that sort of writing? I'm sure everyone would get your point, even without the curse words.


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