لنتكلم العربية (Arabic practice)

[Goro]

Are there any other Arabic speaking folks out there?

هل يوجد من يتكلم اللغة العربية في هذا المنتدى ؟؟

[steewi]

لا ممكن تقول في العربية
درستها في الجامعة, لكن انا لا اذكر كيف ان تكلمها. دماغي خرقت

[gaurwraith]

I'm studing it but still can't say much...

كيف حالك ؟
إسمي ميكايل, أنا إسبانيّ وأدرس اللغة العربيّ في جامعة الترجمة في مدريد

ed. My name is Miguel. I'm Spanish and I study Arabic in the university of translation in Madrid

[steewi]

انا ايدا ادرس في ال جامعة, لكن في استراليا. اسمي وليام او ويل. في السنة 2001, ما في طالبون في درسات ال عربية. الان, في 200. واو

[RealGrouchy]

Is it just me, or is it next to impossible to read Arabic script on the screen (e.g. on Wikipedia, or here) without increasing font sizes in the browser? How do native speakers read it? Is this just a conspiracy by Egyptian eyeglass makers?

- RG>

[steewi]

Is it just me, or is it next to impossible to read Arabic script on the screen (e.g. on Wikipedia, or here) without increasing font sizes in the browser? How do native speakers read it? Is this just a conspiracy by Egyptian eyeglass makers?

- RG>

It's not too bad, but I see what you mean. Telling the difference between ن ت and ث in medial position can be difficult - the default size does seem to be smaller.

[Aquinas]

When I first learned to read Arabic script, I also had a really hard time reading it on the web because of the small font. It seems that it's normal for someone learning to read to have a hard time differentiating certain characters if they're smaller than you're used to. Once you get the hang of reading Arabic, small fonts aren't as much of a problem.

Does anyone else have a huge problem reading different kinds of Perso-Arabic script, like Kufic or Nastaliq? I find that reading Urdu or Persian in Nastaliq script is near-impossible, even though I have no problem reading it in Naskh. I can usually read Kufic even though it's a little more difficult, but Nastaliq is almost illegible to my eyes for some reason.

[steewi]

The different fonts certainly take a while to get used to. I still find it very difficult to read Arabic script when it's used like in Urdu (is that Nastaliq? I can't remember).

[Aquinas]

Yeah, Urdu is primarily written in Nastaliq script. I was trying to learn how to read it as I was planning on going to Pakistan (plans later abandoned for obvious political reasons). The thing that really gets me is that Nastaliq is super-calligraphic, and for a novice reader of Perso-Arabic, it's super difficult to differentiate the characters. Another thing is that it's written diagonally, right-to-left and top-to-bottom.

This is a pretty good site that provides some basic lessons on reading Urdu in Nastaliq. Even after going through the lessons, I still have a tough time reading Urdu signage, whereas I can reading pretty much anything in the Naksh (standard Arabic) script.

http://www.ukindia.com/zurdu1.htm

[sparks]

NOTE: I might be a little off in the Classic/Modern dichotomy (as in, getting the name wrong). I'm not 100% if they're called this in English, or if you have other specific words to designate the older kind and the newer kind.

I really want to learn Arabic. However, my university only offers Classic Arabic (is this what it's called in English?), and I want the Modern kind. One of my classmates, who is taking these lessons, has told me that to learn the latter he needs the former. Is this true? Or could I just take the Modern without the Classic? Would you advise someone against taking both simultaneously (i.e. would it be easy to mix them up too much (a little being acceptable) and get too confused)? Merci.

[RealGrouchy]

NOTE: I might be a little off in the Classic/Modern dichotomy (as in, getting the name wrong). I'm not 100% if they're called this in English, or if you have other specific words to designate the older kind and the newer kind.

I really want to learn Arabic. However, my university only offers Classic Arabic (is this what it's called in English?), and I want the Modern kind. One of my classmates, who is taking these lessons, has told me that to learn the latter he needs the former. Is this true? Or could I just take the Modern without the Classic? Would you advise someone against taking both simultaneously (i.e. would it be easy to mix them up too much (a little being acceptable) and get too confused)? Merci.

Merging with the Arabic thread. (Which is technically the "Arabic Practise" thread. People can complain if they disagree with this decision)

- RG>

[steewi]

Modern Arabic has less "formal grammar", i.e. learning noun cases. However, in Modern Arabic, there's still a lot of quoting of older texts (specifically the Qur'an), so a working knowledge of Classical Arabic really helps. Furthermore, even though there's a standard Modern Arabic, there's a lot of variation through the Arab speaking world, so there can be some confusion. I'd say both can be equally useful, but for different purposes. From a university course, you might not get the practical spoken Arabic practice from a Classical Arabic course that you would get from Classical, but you can converse with Classical Arabic.

[imi]

i am a new member from algeria i can teach you the arabic language you welcome
انا عضوة من الجزائر استطيع مساعدتكم للتلموا اللغة العربية مرحبا بكم

It is not necessary to make your text bigger than everyone else's...

[starshard0]

ساهلا و اهلا يا زملئي اسمي عصام و انا من والية كاليفرنيا
هل اي منكم تعرف اي كلمات غربيا؟

[alibalto5]

اهلا وسهلا بالجميع
اتمنى لكم التوفيق في تعلم اللغة العربية
اطيب التمنيات
علي

[xanadu]

I really want to learn Arabic. However, my university only offers Classic Arabic (is this what it's called in English?), and I want the Modern kind. One of my classmates, who is taking these lessons, has told me that to learn the latter he needs the former. Is this true? Or could I just take the Modern without the Classic? Would you advise someone against taking both simultaneously (i.e. would it be easy to mix them up too much (a little being acceptable) and get too confused)? Merci.

My understanding is that since "Classical" Arabic (Known in English as Modern Standard Arabic, or MSA) was the original language in the region, and kept to a level of purity thanks to concreted Qu'ranic study, and that the various colloquial dialects gradually evolved to the specific regions over time. What I've been taught is that since MSA is virtually identical to the Arabic found in the Qu'ran (with a few minor pronunciation differences, for example ج ), it can be understood all over the Arab world. However if you were to learn, say, Gulf Arabic, it would be harder (but not impossible) to make yourself understood in Tunisia or anywhere else in the north of Africa.

Another advantage of having fluency of MSA is that it is the language spoken in all forms of media such as newspapers, television, radio, religious broadcasts etc. It should also be remembered that all Arabic, regardless of region, is read exactly the same.

Hope that helps. It's a fiendishly tricky language to learn at times, but it's by far my favourite to study so far!

[gaurwraith]

What I'm going to ask is a bit off topic but I think it fits in here.
I'm looking for some subtitled videos.
I'm thinking Arabic subtitled into English, or Arabic with the subtitles
in Arabic.
I have mbc3 channel with the cartoons in Arabic but I'd like to find something like that with subtitles. I find that cartoon are easy to begin with, so if you have some clue I appreciate!

ed. I found there are some English subtitled movies in the afternoon in Melody Aflam channel in Nilesat satellite

[gaurwraith]

سلام عليكم، أريد أن أتمرن اللغة العربية في هذا الفوروم, يجب أن أدس العربية و أفكر أن التكلمة هنا هي حسناَ. ولكن سمحلي، لأن خطأ كثيراَ

Peace, I want to practice Arabic in this forum. I have to study Arabic and I think that talking here is good, but excuse me because there are many errors.

[Caudebac]

I'm also studying Arabic (and going abroad to Egypt for 5 weeks this summer to study). Just thought I'd give a shout out.

[gaurwraith]

أين سوف تدرس؟

هل تعرف العربية الان؟

أتمنى أن تعلم كثيراَ

Where will you study?
Do you understand Arabic right now?
I hope you learn a lot

[امير]

أنا ادراسة ستة أساببع فقيت

Does anyone else currently study or have you studied Arabic? I'm currently in a 63 week course and it's very interesting.

[gaurwraith]

أنا أدرس اللغة العربية أيضا، في كلية ترجمة غرناطة (في إسبانيا) وأدرسها منذ ثلاث سنوات. سوف أذهب إلى تونس السنة المقبل لاستمر دراستي
أهلا وسهلا بك

I study Arabic as well, in the faculty of translation of the university of Granada (in Spain). I study it since three years ago. I'm going to Tunis next year to continue my studies. Cheers

[GarrettIrish]

انا ادرس اللغة العربية ايضا.هل تتكلمون الفصحى اوالعامية؟ اتكلم الفصحى والعامية الفلسطينية صغيراً. استاذتي فلسطينية و ادرس في الجامية

I've had 4 semesters, though it's the middle of the summer and I feel pretty rusty, I noticed because I keep forgetting how to spell words like والعامية

[gaurwraith]

من اللغات العامية، أعرف المغريبية الدارجة ا فقط لأن المغرب قريبا من إسبانيا وأنا أسكن فيها. سكنت واحد سنة في المغرب أيضا
الدارجة مختلفا جيدا من الفصحى ولكنها مهما لأن الناس يتكلموها
أتمنى أن نتكلموا العربية قليلا، هي منسية في هذا المكان

From dialectal languages, I only know the Moroccan dialect, because Morocco is close to Spain, where I live. I lived one year in Morocco too. The dialect is very different from classical, but it's interesting because people do speak it.
I hope that we talk a bit in Arabic, it's forgotten in this place.

[vaguelyhumanoid]

I just know very simple Arabic, as in:
كتبا ال كتب
type stuff, but the whole "consonant root" thing is just awesome... I love Semitic languages.

[GarrettIrish]

منذ سنتين زرت إسبانيا والمغرب في عطلة الصيف مع مدرستي.ثم ما تكلمت اللغة العربية.


-2 years ago I visited Spain and Morocco on a summer break with my school. I didn't speak Arabic then.-

I was going to mark this up with formal casings but it seems like too much work, and with the font size I doubt anyone could see them anyway.

[theGoldenCalf;]

يالله, باعمل "نيكرو" على التسلسل...

اهلا وصهلا ورحمة الله وبركاته. آنا عجل الذهب, واباعرف اللغة العربية. تعلمتها من جدتي اللي اجت من العراق. بافرح لمساعدة كل من يريد يتعلم او يدرب اللغة

[gaurwraith]

لا بد من الممارسة، يا أصدقاءي. إن العربية لغة صعبة ولكن تعلمها ليس مستحيل. فيجب أن نكون صبوراً، سوف نقوم بالتوفيق إذا نحاول الدراسة اليومية والممارسة اليومية وهذه قائدة لكل التوفيق
.أحيانا نشعر بالتكاسل، فلا بد أن نغتفر أنفسنا ونستمر طريقنا دون نعاقبنا به

[theGoldenCalf;]

الطريق الاحلى لتعليم كل لغة هو تكلم اللغة. لغة أمي هي العبرية, وهي لغة سامية مثل العربية, ولكن تعليم لعربية ما كان صعب كثير العبرية ولعربية مشابهة جدًا. وين تعلمت اللغة،gaurwraith? هل تتكلم اللغة في حياتك اليومية?

[gaurwraith]

أسكن في تونس الان وأتكلم العربية قليلا كل اليوم.

أدرس في معهد برقيبة وأتكلم العربية الفصحى مع الطلاب الأخرين في قسمي ولكن في الشارع أحاول أن أتكلم اللهجة التونيسية

.

أريد أن أتعلم اللغة العبرية أيضا لأن كل الناس يقولون لي إنها تشبه العربية. سنرى

[theGoldenCalf;]

تونس!! كيف الاحوال هناك الآن? هل تشعر بالأمان في الشوارع?
هذا طيب جدًا إن تتكلم العربية كثير. آنا ما تكلمت العربية منذ سنوات. اتكلم اللغة الوسطى او العراقية اساسًا, بس احول ان اتكلم الفصحى هون (العراقية مشاهبة لالفصحى).
العربية والعبرية انها مشاهبة, بس عليك لتعرف وحد منها طيب عن تلحظ التشابه

[gaurwraith]

خفت قليلا في تونس عندما سمعت طلقات في الشارع وبقيت في بيتي خلال أربعة أيام. إن الوضع الان أحسن. أتمنى أن سيقوموا بالانتخابات الحرة وشيئا فشيئا سوف تصبح تونس دولة ديمقراطية.
وأفهم قليل من اللهجة العراقية فهي تشبه اللهجة التونسية, مثلا, التونسية تستعمل الكلمة "بس" لتشير على المستقبل... وأشعر بالتعب من الكتابة... أوووووف! أنا متعب جدا

[theGoldenCalf;]

انا استعمل لوحة مفاتيح ظاهرية لكتاب العربية.. هذا كمان يتعبك جدًا
آمل ان تكون التونس دولة ديموقراطية حقًا وهادئة ومزدهرة. في حالات كثيرة بالعالم العربي والمسلم, انتخابات حرّة تؤدي الى حكومة اساسية غير ديموقراطية ولاستمرار الطغيان والنقس. ان آمل جدًا ان يكون الحال آخر هذا المرة في الدولات التي تغير حكوماتهن.

[Lazar]

So… I've gone back and forth on whether to add Arabic to the list of languages I'm seriously trying to learn. I really like the language esthetically and I've gotten a pretty good grasp of the standard phonology, but one of the things that's been deterring me is the diglossia question: most learning materials teach normative MSA, with full ʾiʿrāb – yet according to all anecdotal accounts that I've seen, that way of speaking sounds really out of place in anything other than a prepared reading. I could learn a dialect – but I don't have any practical calling that would lead me to pick one in particular, and most sources advise that you should still learn (written) MSA for the sake of literacy.

What's really caught my interest, though, is the concept of Formal Spoken Arabic (FSA) put forth by Karin Ryding and others. It's still somewhat inchoate, but the gist is that it takes MSA as its base while abandoning ʾIʿrāb (outside of fixed religious expressions) and incorporating features shared by all or most dialects – taking either Levantine or Egyptian as a tiebreaker where necessary. For example, "Mā smuka?" becomes "Šū ʾismak?" The advantage of this approach, from what I can tell, is that it's passably close to MSA while also passably vernacular. You'll sound like a reasonably educated, but hopefully not pretentious person from nowhere in particular – which is what I generally aim for in language learning.

But as I indicated, FSA isn't well defined, so I'm kinda piecing it together as I go. Ryding suggests sticking with a normative MSA pronunciation, which I like. My understanding of standard Arabic phonology is largely based on Luciano Canepari's account: I've found his descriptive work to be invaluable and in many respects unmatched as a guide to mastering FL pronunciations. (You'll have to acquaint yourself with his voluminous proposed IPA extension, though.) Most of the consonants are relatively easily accounted for: I lean toward [ʒ] for ج and [zˤ] for ظ – rather than [dʒ] and [ðˤ] – partly because they seem a little more cosmƒiopolitan, and partly because of the symmetry with [ʃ] and [sˤ]. (This also allows ج to be a sun letter: "až-žamal".) For the vowels, I'm using a set of transformations inspired by Canepari's descriptions of both MSA and the dialects (and translated, here, into regular IPA):

Spoiler:

Vowels /aː/*, /a/
[ɑ̈(ː)] next to /tˤ, dˤ, sˤ, zˤ, q, ɫ/
[ä(ː)] next to /ħ, ʕ, χ, ʁ, r/
[ä] unstressed phrase-finally when not followed by tāʾ marbūṭä – except as above
[ɛ̈(ː)] elsewhere

Vowel /i/
[ᵻ] next to /tˤ, dˤ, sˤ, zˤ, q, ħ, ʕ, χ, ʁ/
[ɪ̈] in other checked syllables
[i] elsewhere

Vowel /iː/*
[ᵻ(ː)] between /tˤ, dˤ, sˤ, zˤ, q/
[ï(ː)] next to /tˤ, dˤ, sˤ, zˤ, q, ħ, ʕ, χ, ʁ/
[i(ː)] elsewhere

Vowel /u/
[ʊ] next to /tˤ, dˤ, sˤ, zˤ, q, ħ, ʕ, χ, ʁ/
[ʊ] in checked syllables
[u] elsewhere

Vowel /uː/*
[ʊ(ː)] next to /tˤ, dˤ, sˤ, zˤ, q, ħ, ʕ, χ, ʁ/
[u(ː)] elsewhere

Vowel /eː/*
[ë(ː)] next to /tˤ, dˤ, sˤ, zˤ, q/
[e(ː)] elsewhere

Vowel /oː/*
[o(ː)] everywhere

*Phonetically short in unstressed syllables.

Other points:
-Final /iːj/ will be reanalyzed as simple /iː/ in nisbä adjectives.
–To break up CCC sequences between morphemes, there'll be an invariant epenthetic vowel [ɪ̈].

And for stress, I'm using the Latin-reminiscent approach that seems to be most widely accepted in MSA: superheavy final syllables receive stress, then heavy penultimate syllables, then antepenultimate syllables.

Morphologically, I've found the biggest challenge is changing the verbal conjugations into a form that's more consistent with the dialects. I used the listing of verbs here here, and largely followed the descriptions in this book, which aligns with the FSA concept:

Spoiler:

Sound verbs, regular
katabt
katabt/katabtī
katab/katabat
katabnā
katabtū
katabū

ʾaktub
tuktub/tuktubī
yuktub/tuktub
nuktub
tuktubū
yuktubū

ʾuktub/ʾuktubī
ʾuktubū

Sound verbs, doubled
raddēt
raddēt/raddētī
radd/raddat
raddēnā
raddētū
raddū

ʾarudd
tirudd/tiruddī
yirudd/tirudd
nirudd
tiruddū
yiruddū

rudd/ruddī
ruddū

Sound verbs, hamzated (1)
ʾakalt
ʾakalt/ʾakaltī
ʾakal/ʾakalat
ʾakalnā
ʾakaltū
ʾakalū

ʾākul
tākul/tākulī
yākul/tākul
nākul
tākulū
yākulū

kul/kulī
kulū

Sound verbs, hamzated (2)
saʾalt
saʾalt/saʾaltī
saʾal/saʾalat
saʾalnā
saʾaltū
saʾalū

ʾasʾal
tisʾal/tisʾalī
yisʾal/tisʾal
nisʾal
tisʾalū
yisʾalū

ʾisʾal/ʾisʾalī
ʾisʾalū

Sound verbs, hamzated (3)
qarēt
qarēt/qarētī
qarā/qarat
qarēnā
qarētū
qarū

ʾaqrā
tiqrā/tiqrī
yiqrā/tiqrā
niqrā
tiqrū
yiqrū

ʾiqrā/ʾiqrī
ʾiqrū

Weak verbs, assimilated
waṣalt
waṣalt/waṣaltī
waṣal/waṣalat
waṣalnā
waṣaltū
waṣalū

ʾōṣil
tūṣil/tūṣilī
yūṣil/tūṣil
nūṣil
tūṣilū
yūṣilū

ʾūṣil/ʾūṣilī
ʾūṣilū

Weak verbs, hollow
zurt
zurt/zurtī
zār/zārat
zurnā
zurtū
zārū

ʾazūr
tizūr/tizūrī
yizūr/tizūr
nizūr
tizūrū
yizūrū

zūr/zūrī
zūrū

Weak verbs, defective (1)
ražēt
ražēt/ražētī
ražā/ražat
ražēna
ražētū
ražū

ʾaržū
tiržū/tiržī
yiržū/tiržū
niržū
tiržū
yiržū

ʾiržū/ʾiržī
ʾiržū

Weak verbs, defective (2)
nasīt
nasīt/nasītī
nasī/nasiyat
nasīnā
nasītū
nasū

ʾansá
tinsá/tinsī
yinsá/tinsá
ninsá
tinsū
yinsū

ʾinsá/ʾinsī
ʾinsū

Weak verbs, defective (3)
žarēt
žarēt/žarētī
žará/žarat
žarēnā
žarētū
žarū

ʾažrī
tižrī/tižrī
yižrī/tižrī
nižrī
tižrū
yižrū

ʾižrī/ʾižrī
ʾižrū

Examples of present prefix
b-aktub
bi-tuktub/bi-tuktubī
bi-yuktub/bi-tuktub
bi-nuktub
bi-tuktubū
bi-yuktubū

b-arudd
bi-trudd/bi-truddī
bi-yrudd/bi-trudd
bi-nrudd
bi-truddū
bi-yruddū

Examples of future prefix
ḥ-aktub
ḥa-tuktub/ḥa-tuktubī
ḥa-yuktub/ḥa-tuktub
ḥa-nuktub
ḥa-tuktubū
ḥa-yuktubū

ḥ-arudd
ḥa-trudd/ḥa-truddī
ḥa-yrudd/ḥa-trudd
ḥa-nrudd
ḥa-truddū
ḥa-yruddū

And for personal pronouns, I'm using:

Spoiler:

Subject pronouns
ʾanā
ʾintä/ʾintī
huwä/hiyä
ʾiḥnā
ʾintū
humä

Object and possessive pronouns
Vnī (Vyā)
Vk/Vkī
Vh/Vhā
Vnā
Vkum
Vhum

Cnī (Cī)
Cak/Cik
Cū/Chā
Cnā
Ckum
Chum

CCinī (CCī)
CCak/CCik
CCū/CCahā
CCinā
CCukum
CCuhum

Aside from the words above, I'll generally going to keep internal voweling as it is in MSA. I've also gone back and forth on whether to maintain hamzas, but after examining some dialectal sources I've settled on what looks like a good middle ground: hamza will be elided in unstressed final position (this is mostly covered by the verbal paradigms above), and will be elided where it does not or *cannot* start a syllable. This rule gives "rās" instead of "raʾs", but lets us keep hamzas in words like "badʾ" or "samāʾ", where they could be followed by another vowel.

Edit: On further reflexion, I've also decided to adopt a vowel elision rule like the one found in Egyptian Arabic: short unstressed /i/ and /u/ will be deleted in the context VCVCV, both within and between words. So "tūnisī" becomes "tūnsī" (but "Tūnis" stays the same); "θamāniyä" becomes "θamānyä"; "mā bi-yuktub" becomes "mā b-yuktub". I think this will help keep me from sounding too stilted or classicizing.

And the transliteration that I'm using, which is inspired by a couple different approaches, goes like this:

Spoiler:

ʾalif
bāʾ
tāʾ
θāʾ
žīm/ǧīm
ḥāʾ
xāʾ
dāl
ðāl
rāʾ
zāy
sīn
šīn
ṣād
ḍād
ṭāʾ
ẓāʾ/ð̣āʾ
ʿēn
ɣēn
fāʾ
qāf
kāf
lām
mīm
nūn
hāʾ
wāw
yāʾ

(Also ä for tāʾ marbūṭä, and á for ʾalif maqsūrä.)

So, yeah, this is basically an extended musing, but maybe it'll be of interest to somebody.

[Sableagle]

What I'm going to ask is a bit off topic but I think it fits in here.
I'm looking for some subtitled videos.
I'm thinking Arabic subtitled into English, or Arabic with the subtitles
in Arabic.
I have mbc3 channel with the cartoons in Arabic but I'd like to find something like that with subtitles. I find that cartoon are easy to begin with, so if you have some clue I appreciate!

ed. I found there are some English subtitled movies in the afternoon in Melody Aflam channel in Nilesat satellite

There's Syria's official news service, but it's grim stuff. They have their own YouTube channel and if you go back through the videos they have a lot of musical and sporting events and the opening of a short film festival (something about sugar in the home of the lion?) within the last month or two. Also a rendition of Jingle Bells with Santa hats and a picture of Bashar and a bit of a speech about brave soldiers liberating territory from the fear of terrorism because it's an official news channel. A show in Arthouse Dimashq may be easier on the politics-weary.

Al-Jazeera has a live stream that may be useful (but depressing). They're talking about striking worldwide, militias, Iran, the USA, Raqqa and so on at the moment. You can also get news summaries on their video list. Important note: news presenters may actually be pronouncing the "un" and "in" grammatical endings that people don't usually use. She doesn't seem to be. One on Suwri-1 used to and that made for a lot of syllables.

Ash-Sharq al-Awsat has an Arabic-language site and, presumably, the same stories on its English-language version too for checking. They have a fiydiyuw page of course. Current headline: "The crimes of Iran around the world." There's also English with Arabic subtitles for "Iran and great powers approach agreement on nuclear sanctions."