Vwl Rfrm

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Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:14 am UTC

Y'v lkly ntcd by nw tht w cn rd prtty wll wtht vwls. Ppl hv jkngly prpsd th blshmnt f vwls, bt wht f w dd t fr rl? Clrly, sm wrds wld hv t b ltrd (wrds wth sngl cnsnnt fr nstnc), bt thnk f th spc ffcncy. Prhps w shld nly s t n crtn cntxts (Lk ncnt Hbrw). Y cld lrn t rd ths vry qckly.

B th wy, srch s brkn. Ths hsn't bn cvrd, rght?

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby jaap » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:22 am UTC

6453893 wrote:Y'v lkly ntcd by nw tht w cn rd prtty wll wtht vwls. Ppl hv jkngly prpsd th blshmnt f vwls, bt wht f w dd t fr rl? Clrly, sm wrds wld hv t b ltrd (wrds wth sngl cnsnnt fr nstnc), bt thnk f th spc ffcncy. Prhps w shld nly s t n crtn cntxts (Lk ncnt Hbrw). Y cld lrn t rd ths vry qckly.

B th wy, srch s brkn. Ths hsn't bn cvrd, rght?


thnk hv sn t mntnd bt.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:05 am UTC

h yh, ' rmmbr tht thrd. tht convrstn wnt n lng tngnt bt th lttr 'y', s Lngg & Lngstcs dscssns tnd t.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby ZLVT » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:57 am UTC

srsly, you can't just remove all the vowels in a vowel-rich language, you need to add markers, like an ' for initial vowels or ajacent vowels, or a final h after an /a/ or a w or y for a long u or i. Even the abjads do that. "you" shouldn't become "y" but rather "yw", and somethign needs to be done about the digraphs. th ch sh (dh zh) coudl stand for fricatives (and affricate) or for 2 consonant sounds.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:37 am UTC

Um, I already brought that many words would have to be altered (especially a certain personal pronoun) for ease of interpretation. Didn't you read the first post?

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Chfan » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:22 am UTC

We tried, but it was too hard.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Kewangji » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:38 pm UTC

Rdng wrds 've nvr sn bfr wld b ncrdbly nnyng, snc 'd jst hve th fntst d f hw thy'r prnncd.

DT: nd crrct spllng wld b vn mr mprtnt, dslxcs wld hv mch hrdr tm.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:05 pm UTC

Kewangji wrote:Rdng wrds 've nvr sn bfr wld b ncrdbly nnyng, snc 'd jst hve th fntst d f hw thy'r prnncd.

DT: nd crrct spllng wld b vn mr mprtnt, dslxcs wld hv mch hrdr tm.


'm gttng rlly fst t rdng ths.

' spps tht rdng nw wrds lk ths sn't tht dffrnt frm rdng thm nrmll. thr wy y wldn't rcgnz t nd wld hv t lk t p n th dctnry

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Bobber » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:44 am UTC

dsgr.
I don't twist the truth, I just make it complex.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:04 am UTC

Bobber wrote:dsgr.


tch.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Sharlos » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:50 am UTC

God, what did my language ever do to you people?

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:42 pm UTC

bt bt bt bt bt

Hmm... No. I don't think this works.

Sure, vowels are sometimes redundant, but communication needs redundancy for error correction.

Btt bt bts wth bts. Thn Brt bt h cld bt mr bts wth nl n bt.

Getting rid of them means compressing the language, and like compressing data, this means now you have to take time to uncompress it, and that's more time than it takes to type or read the extra vowels in the first place.

6453893 wrote:thr wy y wldn't rcgnz t nd wld hv t lk t p n th dctnry

Sure, but you could at least get a pretty good guess for the pronunciation even if you didn't have a dictionary handy. At least you'd know how many syllables it had, give or take one.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby goofy » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:22 pm UTC

6453893 wrote:Prhps w shld nly s t n crtn cntxts (Lk ncnt Hbrw).


The Hebrew and Arabic scripts do have letters that represent vowels.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:33 pm UTC

goofy wrote:
6453893 wrote:Prhps w shld nly s t n crtn cntxts (Lk ncnt Hbrw).


The Hebrew and Arabic scripts do have letters that represent vowels.


Srr, shld hv spcfd th Trh, nt ll f hbrw

God, what did my language ever do to you people?


lnggs vlv. T pps th mttn f lngg s t pps th frdm f th hmn mnd.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby goofy » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:39 pm UTC

6453893 wrote:
goofy wrote:
6453893 wrote:Prhps w shld nly s t n crtn cntxts (Lk ncnt Hbrw).


The Hebrew and Arabic scripts do have letters that represent vowels.


Srr, shld hv spcfd th Trh, nt ll f hbrw


In everyday Hebrew and Arabic, some vowels are represented. My understanding is that in the Torah, all the vowels are represented. Is that what you mean?

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:58 pm UTC

6453893 wrote:lnggs vlv. T pps th mttn f lngg s t pps th frdm f th hmn mnd.

To oppose *all* mutation of language, maybe. But to oppose stupid ideas like eliminating all vowels is simply to oppose unnecessary obfuscation which makes communication incredibly difficult for no benefit in this high-bandwidth age.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:20 am UTC

goofy wrote:
6453893 wrote:
goofy wrote:
6453893 wrote:Prhps w shld nly s t n crtn cntxts (Lk ncnt Hbrw).


The Hebrew and Arabic scripts do have letters that represent vowels.


Srr, shld hv spcfd th Trh, nt ll f hbrw


In everyday Hebrew and Arabic, some vowels are represented. My understanding is that in the Torah, all the vowels are represented. Is that what you mean?


N, t s qt th ppst. Thr r n vwlztn chrctrs n th Trh, thy r lrnd b the rl trdtn.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby goofy » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:57 pm UTC

6453893 wrote:N, t s qt th ppst. Thr r n vwlztn chrctrs n th Trh, thy r lrnd b the rl trdtn.


Yeah you're right that there is no niqqud in the Torah. But there are still letters that represent vowels in the Torah: א ו י. Same with Arabic: ا و ي represent vowels.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Chfan » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:30 pm UTC

Yes, aleph and ayin are placeholders for vowels that have no sound otherwise. Yod also makes a "y" sound, which is used often as a vowel in the middle of words.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:55 pm UTC

goofy wrote:
6453893 wrote:N, t s qt th ppst. Thr r n vwlztn chrctrs n th Trh, thy r lrnd b the rl trdtn.


Yeah you're right that there is no niqqud in the Torah. But there are still letters that represent vowels in the Torah: א ו י. Same with Arabic: ا و ي represent vowels.


trst y n tht n. M br mtzvh ws lng, lng tm g.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby BrainMagMo » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:49 am UTC

This thred s painfl to rd. Mabe sm vowls her n ther culd b elimnatd.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Hobgoblin » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:31 pm UTC

If you guys don't stop, I'm going to KILL MYSELF. I can't read this shit no matter how hard I try, and it's frustrating as hell. :(
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:11 pm UTC

Y cld, prhps, smpl nt rd th thrd? t's nt rll tht dffclt t avd.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

Hobgoblin wrote:f y gs dn't stp, 'm gng t KLL MSLF. cn't rd ths sht n mttr hw hrd tr, nd t's frstrtng s hll. :(


wsh cld cnvnc y thrws, srr.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Hobgoblin » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:00 am UTC

6453893 wrote:
Hobgoblin wrote:f y gs dn't stp, 'm gng t KLL MSLF. cn't rd ths sht n mttr hw hrd tr, nd t's frstrtng s hll. :(


wsh cld cnvnc y thrws, srr.



HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGG
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby 6453893 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:53 am UTC

Hobgoblin wrote:
6453893 wrote:
Hobgoblin wrote:f y gs dn't stp, 'm gng t KLL MSLF. cn't rd ths sht n mttr hw hrd tr, nd t's frstrtng s hll. :(


wsh cld cnvnc y thrws, srr.



HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGG


ws xpctng y t sy FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby PM 2Ring » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:49 pm UTC

Y gys r crzy. :)

This sort of thing makes it really hard for people who don't speak a language to learn it through books. It may be fine for native speakers who know what the missing vowels are, but how are outsiders expected to cope? Similar remarks can be made about languages that generally run words together in the written form, like Sanskrit (and other languages that use similar writing systems). I also agree with previous comments that a little redundancy in communication is a good thing.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:10 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:I also agree with previous comments that a little redundancy in communication is a good thing.

Especially as the cost is essentially nil. Your average bit of text takes probably three or four orders of magnitude less time to transmit than it does to read, and if storage space for a huge corpus is the issue, you can compress it digitally far more efficiently than you can by simply removing the vowels, with the advantage that upon decompression it's far easier to read than some of the vowel-free nonsense in this thread.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby n7a7v7i » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:29 pm UTC

6453893 wrote:
Bobber wrote:dsgr.


tch.


I stared at this post for a good three minutes...

I absolutely need to confirm this or my head will explode.
He said "I disagree", and you said "touché", right?

Jesus-fuckin'-christ, kids. Sure, vowels can be a real bitch sometimes, but the amount of brainpower it takes to decode some of this vowelless mumbo-jumbo is just insane. Why the hell would this ever be a good idea worth actually implementing? What benefits would outweigh all the consequences?

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:47 am UTC

Dude, you're the one who says English doesn't have or need rules.

Well, one of the rules is, "words are spelled with vowels".

Still think there's no point or need for them?
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Bobber » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:09 pm UTC

n7a7v7i wrote:
6453893 wrote:
Bobber wrote:dsgr.


tch.


I stared at this post for a good three minutes...

I absolutely need to confirm this or my head will explode.
He said "I disagree", and you said "touché", right?
I could give you closure, but I'll let it linger forever, knowing that there is a small chance that your head might really explode.

dn't thnk y'r vry plt frmt.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Dibley » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:52 pm UTC

If English had more rigid rules about what vowels an be present in any given syllable, and maybe some vowel carriers like Hebrew, it would be workable, but as you guys are trying to do it it's just absurd.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby AVbd » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:52 pm UTC

H gd! Cn tp n m Dvrk kbrd wth n hnd whl hvng ht chclt n th thr. Mmmm, ht chclt. Nn wnt t hv gm f tbl tnns? Hv cmpltl fr hnd!

! RSN!

Mb nt sch gd d fr m, bt y cn g hd wth t. thnk 'll stck wth zp r smthng fr m cmprssn nds.
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Maybe not such a good idea for me, but you can go ahead with it. I think I'll stick with zip or something for my compression needs.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby n7a7v7i » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:57 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Dude, you're the one who says English doesn't have or need rules.

Well, one of the rules is, "words are spelled with vowels".

Still think there's no point or need for them?


Oh, c'mon.

You and I both know that this has nothing to do with rules. Using vowels to spell English is simply a cultural thing.
There is nothing to stop me from using, say, the Korean system of writing to spell out my English.
However, that would just be incredibly difficult.

It's not a matter of rules, it's a matter of not using totally ridiculous ideas in our use of language.
I don't see how rules have anything to do with the matter at hand. There doesn't need to be a rule against people sticking their hands in boiling water. It hurts, and for the most part, people won't do it anyway.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:06 pm UTC

Really? All this time arguing with me and you still don't have the foggiest idea of what "rules" means in terms of descriptive grammar?

Wow.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby llamapalooza » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:12 am UTC

But then we get to a word like "queue" and nobody has any idea what the hell is going on anymore.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:14 am UTC

Which is ironic, because when we use vowels now I can actually tell you to get in the q for tickets and you'd understand me.
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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby llamapalooza » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:19 am UTC

But in "dnt knw whr th q s n ths dmnd thtr" you have significantly more trouble. On the plus side, no more arguing about "theatre/theater."

Edit: Also, this would be the death of pronouns, as both "you" and "I" would be omitted completely.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby Dibley » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:11 am UTC

The "y" in "you" is consonantal, and should not be omitted.

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Re: Vwl Rfrm

Postby llamapalooza » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:16 am UTC

To be honest, I've never understood why a "y" can be a consonant; you're just using an "ee" in a diphthong. Same with "w" as "oo" much of the time.


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