Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:40 am UTC

Sorry, didn't even notice that. I meant "pee" as in the letter, not the fluid.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:26 pm UTC

How do you pronounce the years 1901-1909? I pronounce "1901", "1902" as "nineteen oh one", "nineteen oh two" etc. I've heard some say "nineteen one", "nineteen two" etc. without the "oh".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Zohar » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:41 pm UTC

I say "nineteen oh one", but I'm not a native speaker.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:46 pm UTC

Yeah, it's definitely "nineteen oh one" and so on for me. I can't recall hearing "nineteen one", although I am familiar with "nineteen aught one" when someone's going for an old timey effect.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:11 pm UTC

That does seem like something you might want a urologist to look at.

I pronounce "high school" (as opposed to middle school) as if it were a single compoind noun, which explains why there are features that don't normally occur across word boundaries.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:25 am UTC

Come to think of it, I pronounce "high school" with the same raised vowel as in "highchair," which I would consider one word, and many if not most people around me seem to do the same. I wonder if we are moving towards a "highschool" compound noun.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:47 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Come to think of it, I pronounce "high school" with the same raised vowel as in "highchair," which I would consider one word, and many if not most people around me seem to do the same. I wonder if we are moving towards a "highschool" compound noun.


What about in the names of high schools like "Jackson High"? Do you pronounce the High part with the raised vowel?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:00 am UTC

How do you pronounce the "jam" in "pajamas", with the "ah" sound or like the word "jam"? I pronounce it with the "ah" sound.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:43 am UTC

I use /æ/.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:09 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Come to think of it, I pronounce "high school" with the same raised vowel as in "highchair," which I would consider one word, and many if not most people around me seem to do the same. I wonder if we are moving towards a "highschool" compound noun.


What about in the names of high schools like "Jackson High"? Do you pronounce the High part with the raised vowel?

I don't raise the vowel in that case. I treat it as if "High" were an abbreviation for "high school," so I pronounce it like a word on its own that ends the sentence, with a descending or neutral tone if anything.

Mega85 wrote:How do you pronounce the "jam" in "pajamas", with the "ah" sound or like the word "jam"? I pronounce it with the "ah" sound.

I usually use the "ah" sound. [pʰə'dʒɑː.məz], I think.

E: On second thought, there seem to be some cases where I raise the vowel more than others. The "Canadian raising" in "high school" is never fully present anywhere else, but sometimes I might end "Jackson High" on a slightly raised vowel, whereas in other cases it isn't raised at all. It is hard for me to judge this just by listening to my own speech. It is clearly qualitatively different, but I can't explain exactly how.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:11 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:How do you pronounce the "jam" in "pajamas", with the "ah" sound or like the word "jam"? I pronounce it with the "ah" sound.

"ah"

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:05 pm UTC

Bert Vaux's survey shows the country roughly evenly divided on "pajamas", though I'm distinctly in the minority in my state. I do have "aunt" with /ɑː/, though.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:26 am UTC

I say "pajamas" with /ɑː/. The diminutive form "jammies" however has /æ/ for me.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Xanthir » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:47 am UTC

Yeah, same for me. (Houston-raised.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:06 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:I say "pajamas" with /ɑː/. The diminutive form "jammies" however has /æ/ for me.

That word really belongs in the "words you hate" thread :evil: .

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:20 am UTC

Where is the syllable divide in "beetroot"? I know it's basically two words but I'm pretty sure I say "bee-troot".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:44 pm UTC

I say it as "beet-root", with both /t/s unreleased.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:03 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:I say it as "beet-root", with both /t/s unreleased.

Agreed, and the first /t/ does not undergo the palatalization that I would have before /r/ in words like "tree" and "true".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:30 pm UTC

If I think about it, I naturally replace syllable-end "t"s with glottal stops, yet I only do that for the second "t" in "beetroot". And I'm not a good judge of it but I think the first one is palatalised - it sounds like the one in "tree" more than the one in "tee".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:56 pm UTC

So it'd sound like "beachroot", then?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:11 pm UTC

A bit, yeah.

I tested some similar words, and I have that same palatalisation in "bedroom" and "wardrobe".

For the record, my brother pronounces "beetroot" how I do, but our parents say it the beet-root way, so we have no idea where we got it from.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:31 pm UTC

As best I can tell, I say "bed-room" but "war-drobe". It's subtle, though: my /tr/ and /dr/ have less palatalization than average, especially the /dr/. Whenever I see a proposed spelling reform with "chree" and "jraw", it rings a bit off for me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:07 pm UTC

I don't know if I've ever said "beetroot" (in America we just call them "beets"), but if I did I think I would say it as beet.root, not bee.troot. It's definitely war.drobe, but I can't seem to decide on bed.room or be.droom.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:58 pm UTC

How is the word "America" typically pronounced by those who distinguish "Mary" and "merry"?

In Fanetik, a spelling reform proposal, the reformer uses spellings representing the distinction, "Mary" becomes "Mairee", and "merry" becomes "meree", however he respells "American" as "Amairikan". I thought "America" was pronounced with the "merry" vowel by those who made the distinction. Does it vary by region?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:12 am UTC

Yeah, it's definitely pronounced with the "merry" vowel by those of us with the distinction. The "Mary" vowel wouldn't usually be repesented by orthographic "e", except in foreign names or recent-ish loanwords like "sombrero".

By the way, I've had run-ins with that Schoonmaker guy in the past – and in my experience he's pretty intolerant of those whose pronunciations don't match his own. He's from the Delaware valley, which does some odd things with the "merry" vowel: you can note elsewhere on his site that despite writing "merry" as "meree", he also writes "current" as "kerant", showing that he has at least some of the "merry"-"Murray" merger which is distinctive to that region. In one exchange that I remember, he reacted hostilely to the idea that "flourish" and "cherish" could have different vowels, writing the former as "flerish".

He's also the founder of a one-man political party advocating the annexation of the entire world by the United States, and (checking his blog just now) is a climate change denier and claims to have invented the phrase "gay pride". He's kind of an odd duck.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:34 am UTC

I think that's the first time I've heard of a merry-Murray merger.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:09 am UTC

Derek wrote:I think that's the first time I've heard of a merry-Murray merger.


Such can occur in the English of Philadelphia. They make a distinction between "Mary", "marry" and "merry", however they merge "merry" with "Murray".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:23 pm UTC

Though as mentioned they're usually just "beets" here, I say "beetroot" with an unreleased or glottal 't' in the middle.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:08 pm UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3taEuL4EHAg

NCVS in this Kesha song. The words "glove box", "got", "blah blah blah", "stop" etc. with a central [a] rather than the General American [A] I've noticed.

"stop ta ta talking that blah blah blah"

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:44 pm UTC

Does anyone else not natively have "ought" in their speech? I use "should" in all cases where "ought" could potentially be found – with the caveat that I do occasionally make deliberate use of "ought" in my writing, having borrowed it as a literary usage. But to actually use "ought" in everyday speech strikes me as something of an archaism-cum-Southernism, sort of like the witch-which distinction.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:48 pm UTC

I tried to think of a phrase where it would work semantically - "I think he ought to..." - then tried to think how I'd say it naturally, and I think I'd say "I think he'd better..." in that context. I don't think I'd normally say "ought" myself at all.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby JackHK » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:06 pm UTC

I mean, I use it when I'm deliberately being pretentious, but then in that case I go completely overboard : "Oughtn't he wait a while?", with a posh Oxfordshire accent.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Xanthir » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:52 pm UTC

As a southerner (Texan), I use it in my everyday speech.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:49 am UTC

I'm from northern New Jersey, and I have "ought" natively, although I use "should" more frequently.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:13 am UTC

US midwest, I do use "oughta" or "ought to" conversationally when it seems softer than "should". Never in negative form unless I'm being pretentious.

Edit: Pretentious or cute, I suppose: "I thought I oughta not ta."
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:18 pm UTC

"pahk the cah in hahvahd yahd". it should actually be "pahk the car in hahvahd yahd" the "car" comes before a word the starts with a vowel, and therefore there is an /r/. rhotic speakers who try to put on a nonrhotic accent tend to delete /r/s between vowels, whereas nonrhotic speakers don't do that.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:44 pm UTC

That is true, but a lot of Bostonians have intrusive Rs as well, so the distinction in writing is not really that meaningful (in pronunciation it obviously is).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:23 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:"pahk the cah in hahvahd yahd". it should actually be "pahk the car in hahvahd yahd" the "car" comes before a word the starts with a vowel, and therefore there is an /r/. rhotic speakers who try to put on a nonrhotic accent tend to delete /r/s between vowels, whereas nonrhotic speakers don't do that.

Tangential, does linking R still appear before words like "in" and "and" when they are reduced to basically just a nasal?

Eebster the Great wrote:That is true, but a lot of Bostonians have intrusive Rs as well, so the distinction in writing is not really that meaningful (in pronunciation it obviously is).

I may have mentioned this before, but my father (North Carolina) has intrusive R's, at least in some contexts, despite having a rhotic accent. For example, "Chinar and India". Presumably this is a hold over from when the South was mostly non-rhotic, long before he was born.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:44 am UTC

Derek wrote:Tangential, does linking R still appear before words like "in" and "and" when they are reduced to basically just a nasal?

Yeah, linking/intrusive R still shows up there.

I may have mentioned this before, but my father (North Carolina) has intrusive R's, at least in some contexts, despite having a rhotic accent.

I used to be that way too – I natively speak a rhotic hybrid of Eastern New England and General American. But in the past 10 years or so I've stopped using them.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:48 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:That is true, but a lot of Bostonians have intrusive Rs as well, so the distinction in writing is not really that meaningful (in pronunciation it obviously is).
I assume that "pahk the ca(h/r) in Hahvahd Yahd" is intended to be a spelling that, when read by someone with a rhotic accent, sounds like a non-rhotic accent (e.g., to represent a Boston accent in a work whose intended audience mainly has a General American or similar accent), in which case it is meaningful, since a rhotic speaker will pronounce "car in" and "cah in" differently.
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