Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:58 pm UTC

Derek wrote:As flicky showed, in American cursive only the top left to bottom right line of x connects. You come back and cross the x later, like you would with a t.

The "crossing the t's" was the weirdest thing I heard in the US.

I can't write well with the mouse (the lower case i is totally messed up) but I think you get the idea:
Dialekte-Ideolekte.png
Dialekte-Ideolekte.png (2.79 KiB) Viewed 5009 times


Eebster the Great wrote:A lot of the recommendations made no sense; for instance, one guide for writing letters indicated that all four strokes for a printed M or W should be top down. That may have made sense for a fountain pen, but with a ballpoint it's ridiculous.

At least with the kind of fountain pens we used for school it makes no sense, either.

In Germany the school handwriting is split.

East Germany: Rounded, connected upper case letters, generally very little lifting of the fountain pen, no unconnected letters I can think of.
West Germany except Bavaria: Upper case letters look like print letters and are unconnected (or unconnected most of the time, not sure), some other disconnects for some lower case letters inside words happen, too.
Bavaria: "Latin" script, a more traditional more complicated handwriting with a lot of loops

East Germany: taught in grade 1. (There is no kindergarten class like in the US where kids already learn reading and writing.)
West Germany: apparently some states teach reading in cursive for the first two years and then start reading in print, and most states print the first two years when handwriting and only start using cursive to write in 3rd grade. Not sure if the first variant is still a thing, but there used to be kids' books printed in cursive for 1st and 2nd graders in libraries.
Bavaria: Not sure, I suspect taught in grade 1.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:51 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:A lot of the recommendations made no sense; for instance, one guide for writing letters indicated that all four strokes for a printed M or W should be top down. That may have made sense for a fountain pen, but with a ballpoint it's ridiculous.

At least with the kind of fountain pens we used for school it makes no sense, either.

I still don't understand why anyone would choose to use a fountain pen, but you're right, it doesn't really make any sense either way (particularly for the pencils we were universally instructed to use). But it's still Zaner-Bloser's recommendation, and I think my elementary school used a lot of their materials.

Spoiler:
Image
I've never seen anyone write in a manner remotely similar to that, but if you are trying to prove to kids that cursive is faster, maybe this stands as a good strawman for comparison.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Liri » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:51 pm UTC

Four separate strokes for a 'w', wowza.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:59 pm UTC

Liri wrote:Four separate strokes for a 'w', wowza.

So many of them are baffling. The capital U is two strokes. The capital D has the loop drawn in the wrong orientation. The lowercase e is just . . . why?

It seems like it is designed for pens that only draw strong lines from top to bottom, and I can confirm that some caligraphy works that way. But this isn't caligraphy, it is the standard printed form. Also, the typeface they use is frankly ugly. Just look at that 4 and 5.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:30 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:The capital D has the loop drawn in the wrong orientation.
I use that orientation for the loop of the D, but I don't lift the pencil to do it. (I start with a downstroke, then retrace it upwards, then do the loop. I do that for other letters as well: A, B, M, N, P, R, b, m, n, p, r.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:50 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
Liri wrote:Four separate strokes for a 'w', wowza.
The capital D has the loop drawn in the wrong orientation.

What do you consider the "right" orientation? Bottom to top? I agree with Chridd, I've always written capital D with a vertical line down, then back up (pen may be either down or up), and then the loop from top to bottom.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:37 am UTC

Derek wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
Liri wrote:Four separate strokes for a 'w', wowza.
The capital D has the loop drawn in the wrong orientation.

What do you consider the "right" orientation? Bottom to top? I agree with Chridd, I've always written capital D with a vertical line down, then back up (pen may be either down or up), and then the loop from top to bottom.

Surely the natural way to write it is in a single stroke (in either direction), like the letter O.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:51 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Surely the natural way to write it is in a single stroke (in either direction), like the letter O.
...but then it'll look like the letter O...
(Writing D the way I do is natural for me. I think it might have something to do with downward and leftward* strokes being more natural for me at the start or end of a letter, and/or because that's how I write B, and/or because that's the way I've always done it.)

* probably related to the fact that I write with my left hand
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:35 pm UTC

Yeah, that diagram by Eebster has some weird recommendations. I'm pretty certain that was not the way we were taught in school to form some of those letters, like capital M and N for example.

In school, I was taught to form the numeral 6 by starting at the top, and using one single stroke. But the numeral 9 was taught to be formed by first drawing a circle, then a vertical line straight down. When I was a young adult, I trained myself to form the numeral 9 in a single stroke, starting from the bottom, like an inverted 6. Also, I often now form the numeral 8 by drawing two separate little circles, instead of a single stroke like I did in school. As I recall, I was taught in school to draw a backwards capital S and then connect the edges with a straight line.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:56 pm UTC

Whilst we're comparing handwriting I'll write my stuff up:

24172633_10212981781051380_663656494_n.jpg


I've written the stroke order for the capitals and the lower case forms are much neater here than in my usual fast writing; they're all one continual stroke apart from the x (which is two separate c's) and the cross on the t and z which are done after each word (which is also when I dot my i's and j's), if I'm sloppy or fast I often cross nearby t's with a continuous line (always if it two t's together <tt> and sometimes if there's a single vowel in between).

I think all of these are as I was taught in school (and as is fairly usual in the UK as I understand it) except: my x (which is usually only written this way in maths and which doesn't normally connect to the following letter), and my z (which I cross, because otherwise it looks like my 2 in quick writing). Until I was about 16 I also wrote my f's differently, starting like an s but then instead of continuing smoothly onto the next letter there'd be a new stroke crossing the s, I've put a pick below.

24139060_10212981846293011_1637338667_o.jpg


I've also been taught my numbers are odd but they're all exactly as I was taught in school (apart from me having started crossing my 7's to make them more different in rapid writing). As far as I can tell the people saying my 5's are odd have just started doing them differently from what they were taught in school and doing it like an s and just trying to put some right angles in there.

24099602_10212981846453015_1992515835_n.jpg


Like I say though, my rapid writing is waaaaay messier:

24171696_10212981854173208_526525976_n.jpg


Mega85 wrote:
Do nonrhotic speakers typically distinguish "formerly" and "formally"? I think they can be distinguished as "for muh lee" "formerly" vs. "for ml ee" at least for some nonrhotic speakers.


I have schwa, schwi, and schwu and I think formerly has a schwi second whereas formally definitely has a schwa. They're very close though.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby HES » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:58 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:I think all of these are as I was taught in school (and as is fairly usual in the UK as I understand it)

Yeah, exceptions excepted I was taught the same.

I print because my "joined up writing" is illegible. I blame left-handedness. I've taken to crossing my z's, 7's and 0's because if I'm writing rather than typing, I'm probably marking up an engineering drawing and the difference between Type-O and Type-0 matters.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:57 pm UTC

HES wrote:I print because my "joined up writing" is illegible. I blame left-handedness. I've taken to crossing my z's, 7's and 0's because if I'm writing rather than typing, I'm probably marking up an engineering drawing and the difference between Type-O and Type-0 matters.

There is a story that at a German hotel reception there was a sign that meant to tell them not to dial the zero after the code for placing an external call (all city codes start with 0), so the zero was crossed out. The computer scientists or engineers didn't understand what this was meant to say, they understood it as simply a zero.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:50 pm UTC

TIL Americans pronounce "shone" to rhyme with "shown" instead of to rhyme with "gone".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:18 pm UTC

Huh. I rhyme it with neither of those things.

I guess if I had to rhyme it with something, it would be on.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Liri » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Huh. I rhyme it with neither of those things.

I guess if I had to rhyme it with something, it would be on.

But on and gone rhyme to me!
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:23 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Huh. I rhyme it with neither of those things.

I guess if I had to rhyme it with something, it would be on.
"On" and "gone" don't rhyme for you?

(Ninja'd by Liri.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:59 pm UTC

They are very similar, but I spend more time on the o in gone than I do in on. It's the same sound but elongated.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:08 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:TIL Americans pronounce "shone" to rhyme with "shown" instead of to rhyme with "gone".
TIL there are people who pronounce "shone" to rhyme with "gone" and/or "on" instead of with "shown".

(Also, "gone" and "on" rhyme for me, too.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:46 am UTC

On is a word I have heard pronounced many different ways, just in the region I live in. One pronunciation sounds like "own". The rest are variations of the vowel sound that is in words like "gone", "fawn", "dawn", etc. These are all words I've heard pronounced to rhyme, but the vowel sound is said differently depending on the speaker.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:04 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:
Angua wrote:Huh. I rhyme it with neither of those things.

I guess if I had to rhyme it with something, it would be on.
"On" and "gone" don't rhyme for you?

(Ninja'd by Liri.)

Are "cot" and "caught" homophones for you? Because for me "on" has the "cot" vowel while "gone" has the "caught" vowel.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:10 pm UTC

"Cot" and "caught" are not homophones for me, no. ("Caught" is a homophone of "court" - non-rhotic, y'know.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:45 pm UTC

Is either of those vowels what you use in "on" or "gone"?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:01 pm UTC

Cot and caught aren't homophones.

I don't know, I guess they are rhyming? It's just slightly shorter but the same sound. Different emphasis maybe even though they are single syllables? Gone is a longer word for me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:44 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Is either of those vowels what you use in "on" or "gone"?
Yes, the one in "cot". Sorry, should have specified that.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Sizik » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:49 pm UTC

So then "gone" would be pronounced like "gon" (as in polygon) for you?

For me, "gone" rhymes with "lawn".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:56 pm UTC

Sizik wrote:So then "gone" would be pronounced like "gon" (as in polygon) for you?
Yes.
Sizik wrote:For me, "gone" rhymes with "lawn".
Not for me. If I pronounced "gone" to rhyme with how I say "lawn", I'd be saying "Gorn".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:32 pm UTC

Can we get some IPA in here? Because I've really fucking confused about how people are pronouncing "gone" right now.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:36 pm UTC

/ɡɒn/
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:28 pm UTC

Sizik wrote:So then "gone" would be pronounced like "gon" (as in polygon) for you?

For me, "gone" rhymes with "lawn".

Those are the same vowel to me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby freezeblade » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:39 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Sizik wrote:So then "gone" would be pronounced like "gon" (as in polygon) for you?

For me, "gone" rhymes with "lawn".

Those are the same vowel to me.


Me too, but I think we have the exact same accent (If I remember right you're in the central coast of California, where I'm from)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:55 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:
Sizik wrote:So then "gone" would be pronounced like "gon" (as in polygon) for you?

For me, "gone" rhymes with "lawn".

Those are the same vowel to me.


Me too, but I think we have the exact same accent (If I remember right you're in the central coast of California, where I'm from)


All of those (“gone”, “polygon”, “lawn”) have the same sound for me (though my accent is pretty similar to an average of my parents, who grew up in Northern California and Southern California, so it’s probably pretty similar to both of yalls).

I don’t actually know what IPA vowel I pronounce it with because I’m not super familiar with IPA, and my vowel pronunciations vary a pretty decent amount depending on the context (who I’m with, how tired I am, etc).

My accent is kind of tricky to nail down though, as although it’s broadly similar to my parents’, I do have some influences from having grown up in Texas — though the degree of that varies, again, based on context. Though to my ear, my accent isn’t super influenced by that (probably because I wasn’t all that social as a kid and the fact that Austin generally has a more neutral accent than other areas of TX — especially among younger people like me (most of my peers only had faint tinges of the sorts of accents older people from the hill country have)).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:56 pm UTC

Derek wrote:Can we get some IPA in here? Because I've really fucking confused about how people are pronouncing "gone" right now.
Dunno about IPA, but we can say what people pronounce the same or differently:
1) (poly)gon, gone, lawn all have the same vowel (Pfhorrest, freezeblade, and pogrmann)
2) gon is distinct, gone and lawn have the same vowel (Sizik, gmalivuk)
3) gon and gone are the same, lawn has a different vowel, but lawn and lorn (as in "forlorn") have the same (non-rhotic) vowel (flicky1991)

In terms of lexical sets, I pronounce (the vowels in) LOT != THOUGHT = CLOTH. I suspect flicky1991 pronounces THOUGHT = NORTH != LOT = CLOTH. I think everyone in group 1 above is American (as am I), so NORTH is a distinct sound for us from any of the ones without 'r'.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby HES » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:39 pm UTC

FWIW, I'm with flicky. But given our geographic proximity that should be no surprise.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:30 pm UTC

Speaking of vowels, those lexical sets gmalivuk posted reminded me that there’s something that goes on sometimes with vowels before l for me. For instance, “wolf” (but not “could”) from the FOOT set has a distinctly different vowel from the others. “Wolf”, “gulf”, “gull”, “pull”, “mull”, and lots of other l-having words all have the same vowel. It’s further back and (I think) lower than the FOOT vowel. I have other shifts to some extent with other vowels before l, but I can’t think of any right now.

Is there any particular term for this?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:41 pm UTC

Sounds like dark L
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(he/him/his)

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Eebster the Great
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:17 am UTC

For me, wolf, golf, gulf, gull, pull, and mull are all pronounced differently, though sometimes gull = mull. I think wolf = wool, though it's hard to tell.

I'm with gmalivuk and Sizik in group 2, and also agree that lot ≠ thought = cloth.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:31 am UTC

For me wool = wolf ≠ golf = gall = ball = on = gone = fawn = lawn = cot = caught = lot = thought = cloth ≠ gull = pull = mull ≠ shown = shone = own ≠ north = sport = court.
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ThirdParty
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby ThirdParty » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:50 am UTC

Okay, I think this is how I want to represent the back vowels in my (American) dialect:

"ooh" = /u/, "cool" = /kul/, "GOOSE" = /gus/, "pool" = /pul/
"could" = /kʊd/, "FOOT" = /fʊt/, "pull" = /pʊl/, "wolf" = /wʊlf/, "wool" = /wʊl/
"uh" = /ʌ/, "cud" = /kʌd/, "gulf" = /gʌlf/, "gull" = /gʌl/, "mull" = /mʌl/, "STRUT" = /strʌt/
"oh" = /o/, "bowl" = /bol/, "code" = /cod/, "GOAT" = /got/, "loan" = /lon/, "own" = /on/, "shone" = "shown" = /ʃon/
"or" = /ɔr/, "corn" = /kɔrn/, "court" = /kɔrt/, "forlorn" = /fɔrlɔrn/, "NORTH" = /nɔrθ/, "sport" = /spɔrt/
"aw" = /ɒ/, "bawl" = /bɒl/, "caught" = /kɒt/, "fawn" = /fɒn/, "Gaul" = /gɒl/, "lawn" = /lɒn/, "THOUGHT" = /θɒt/
"on" = /ɒn/, "CLOTH" = /klɒθ/, "(poly)gon" = /(pali)gɒn/, "gone" = /gɒn/
"ah" = /a/, "ball" = /bal/, "cod" = /kad/, "cot" = /kat/, "FA(THER)" = /fa(ðər)/, "gall" = /gal/, "golf" = /galf/, "LOT" = /lat/

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freezeblade
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby freezeblade » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:13 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:For me wool = wolf ≠ golf = gall = ball = on = gone = fawn = lawn = cot = caught = lot = thought = cloth ≠ gull = pull = mull ≠ shown = shone = own ≠ north = sport = court.


Yup. Same as mine. The only non-"california" thing I have is that I sometimes pronounce "wash" as "warsh" which I picked up from my father. This is pretty much the only remaining bit of my Scots-Irish Midlands American heritage.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Derek wrote:Can we get some IPA in here? Because I've really fucking confused about how people are pronouncing "gone" right now.
Dunno about IPA, but we can say what people pronounce the same or differently:
1) (poly)gon, gone, lawn all have the same vowel (Pfhorrest, freezeblade, and pogrmann)
2) gon is distinct, gone and lawn have the same vowel (Sizik, gmalivuk)
3) gon and gone are the same, lawn has a different vowel, but lawn and lorn (as in "forlorn") have the same (non-rhotic) vowel (flicky1991)


Interesting. I'm in group 4:

4) gon and gone are the same, lawn has a different vowel, and lorn is distinct from lawn because I have a rhotic accent.


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