Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Mega85
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:15 am UTC

do you rhyme "duller" and "color"? for me, they don't rhyme. "color" has a vowel like in "cut" for me, and "duller" has a different vowel approaching [o].

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:27 am UTC

For me they rhyme, both with the same vowel as "cut".

Would "duller" with an "o" sound not sound more like "dollar"?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:05 am UTC

For me:
- color = /kʌlɚ/ = same vowel as cut; I can't think of any words that rhyme with it in my dialect (only other word I can think of that has /ʌ/ followed by /l/ is "lullaby")
- duller = /dl̩.ɚ/ (syllabic l) or something like /dɤl.ɚ/ (sort of /o/-like but unrounded); whatever it is sounds almost but not quite like the sound in "hole" and "pole" ("pole" and "pull" are nearly but not exactly homophones for me); "hole" and "pole", in turn, have the same or very similar vowel to "goat" and "low"
- dollar = /dɑlɚ/ = same or very similar to the "a" in "father" (and also the vowel that I use for "doll", "call", "palm", "cot", "caught", "thought", "lot", "cloth"); lower than /o/ and definitely unrounded
To me, "duller" and "dollar" don't sound similar, but my "duller" might sound like some other dialect's "dollar"
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:40 am UTC

I (an RP speakers) definitely have the merged and using the cut vowel. I'm surprised by a syllabic l there, I think I only have them in final (and definitely only unstressed) positions.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:14 pm UTC

I have [ˈkʰʌlɚ], [ˈdʌlɚ], [ˈdɒːlɚ].

I think for Mega and chridd, what might be happening is that historic /ʌ/ undergoes significant allophony before /l/ in the same syllable, as in "dull", extending to inflected forms like "duller" – but in "color" this doesn't take place, and the vowel remains unchanged. So I'm guessing that "culler", meaning one who culls, would align with "duller" and not with "color" for you guys.

Also, does your "dull" rhyme with "pull" and "bull"? For me, those are [dʌɫ], [pʰʊɫ], [bʊɫ].
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:47 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:I have [ˈkʰʌlɚ], [ˈdʌlɚ], [ˈdɒːlɚ].

I think for Mega and chridd, what might be happening is that historic /ʌ/ undergoes significant allophony before /l/ in the same syllable, as in "dull", extending to inflected forms like "duller" – but in "color" this doesn't take place, and the vowel remains unchanged. So I'm guessing that "culler", meaning one who culls, would align with "duller" and not with "color" for you guys.

Also, does your "dull" rhyme with "pull" and "bull"? For me, those are [dʌɫ], [pʰʊɫ], [bʊɫ].


"dull" doesn't rhyme with "pull" and "bull" for me. i have [doɫ], [pʰʊɫ], and [bʊɫ].

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:28 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:I think for Mega and chridd, what might be happening is that historic /ʌ/ undergoes significant allophony before /l/ in the same syllable, as in "dull", extending to inflected forms like "duller"
Significant enough that I don't even think of it as the same sound.
So I'm guessing that "culler", meaning one who culls, would align with "duller" and not with "color" for you guys.
For me, yes.
Also, does your "dull" rhyme with "pull" and "bull"? For me, those are [dʌɫ], [pʰʊɫ], [bʊɫ].
For me, yes.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:11 pm UTC

do you distinguish the following pairs of words:

fill/feel

fell/fail

full/fool

for me, those three pairs are all distinct.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:07 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:do you distinguish the following pairs of words:

fill/feel

fell/fail

full/fool

for me, those three pairs are all distinct.
Yes; for me the first of each pair has one syllable and the second has two.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:56 am UTC

chridd wrote:
Mega85 wrote:do you distinguish the following pairs of words:

fill/feel

fell/fail

full/fool

for me, those three pairs are all distinct.
Yes; for me the first of each pair has one syllable and the second has two.

But do you distinguish the vowel sounds?

For me, the latter are also usually two syllables (though I'm not sure if they always are; sometimes it can be difficult to tell), but in addition to that the vowel sounds are quite different.

fill/feel:
[fɪɫ] / [fiː.ɫ]
fell/fail:
[fɛɫ] / [feɪ.ɫ]
full/fool:
[fʊɫ] / [fuː.ɫ]

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:03 am UTC

I distinguish all those pairs, but I also consider them all one syllable (going by sprachgefühl, at least). "File", "fowl" and "foil" undergo syllabic breaking for me, but not "feel", "fail", "fool" or "foal".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:32 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:But do you distinguish the vowel sounds?
Yes

fill/feel:
[fɪɫ] / [fiː.ɫ]
fell/fail:
[fɛɫ] / [feɪ.ɫ]
full/fool:
[fʊɫ] / [fuː.ɫ]
Same for me, except "full" is also that either-syllabic-/l/-or-weird-/ɤ/-ish thing.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:28 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:do you distinguish the following pairs of words:

fill/feel

fell/fail

full/fool

for me, those three pairs are all distinct.

For me, the first pair are identical unless I'm stressing the word. The other two pairs are noticeably different, but none of them are two syllables.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:23 pm UTC

how do you pronounce "twenty"? i pronounce it as [tʰwʌn(tʰ)i]. it doesn't rhyme with "plenty" [plɪn(tʰ)i] for me.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:30 pm UTC

They both have [ɛ] for me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:32 pm UTC

Mega85 wrote:how do you pronounce "twenty"? i pronounce it as [tʰwʌn(tʰ)i]. it doesn't rhyme with "plenty" [plɪn(tʰ)i] for me.

Plenty is a homophone for Pliny (Gaius Plinius)?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:44 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
Mega85 wrote:how do you pronounce "twenty"? i pronounce it as [tʰwʌn(tʰ)i]. it doesn't rhyme with "plenty" [plɪn(tʰ)i] for me.

Plenty is a homophone for Pliny (Gaius Plinius)?


yes it is for me usually, unless i'm emphasizing the word and pronouncing the "t".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:55 pm UTC

why is the word "tomorrow" frequently misspelled as "tomarrow"? shouldn't such a word spelled that way rhyme with "narrow"? note the difference between "morrow" and "marrow", "borrow" and "wheelbarrow".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:58 pm UTC

Probably because it's part of a small number of historic /ɒɹV/ words which shift to the START set rather than the NORTH/FORCE set in General American – canonically, "sorry", "borrow", "sorrow" and "(to)morrow".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:41 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
Mega85 wrote:how do you pronounce "twenty"? i pronounce it as [tʰwʌn(tʰ)i]. it doesn't rhyme with "plenty" [plɪn(tʰ)i] for me.

Plenty is a homophone for Pliny (Gaius Plinius)?

With a pin-pen merger and an elided t, sure.

But twenty as [tʰwʌn(tʰ)i]? I don't think I've ever heard anything like that. It's /twɪnti/ for me (pin-pen merger).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:42 am UTC

Definitely /ɛ/ in twenty for me (/ˈtwɛnt.i~ˈtwɛɾ̃.i/, possibly /ˈtwɛn.i/, but definitely no /ʌ/). Rhymes with "plenty". I'd probably pronounce Pliny /ˈplaɪn.i/ (rhymes with "whiny" but not "plenty"), but that may just be because I haven't heard that name pronounced enough times.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:43 am UTC

Derek wrote:But twenty as [tʰwʌn(tʰ)i]? I don't think I've ever heard anything like that. It's /twɪnti/ for me (pin-pen merger).

[ʌ] in "twenty" is not uncommon in North America. It's even listed in dictionaries.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:38 am UTC

Lazar wrote:
Derek wrote:But twenty as [tʰwʌn(tʰ)i]? I don't think I've ever heard anything like that. It's /twɪnti/ for me (pin-pen merger).

[ʌ] in "twenty" is not uncommon in North America. It's even listed in dictionaries.

Is it associated with any particular region?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:07 am UTC

chridd wrote:Definitely /ɛ/ in twenty for me (/ˈtwɛnt.i~ˈtwɛɾ̃.i/, possibly /ˈtwɛn.i/, but definitely no /ʌ/). Rhymes with "plenty". I'd probably pronounce Pliny /ˈplaɪn.i/ (rhymes with "whiny" but not "plenty"), but that may just be because I haven't heard that name pronounced enough times.

Probably not the best example, since it's a rare name. Some people pronounce it that way, but it is usually rhymed with "mini." It comes from the Latin Plinius, which has the same vowel.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:22 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Some people pronounce it that way, but it is usually rhymed with "mini."

I don't get what the contrast is here - what pronunciation of "Pliny" is there that doesn't rhyme with "mini"?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:45 pm UTC

Well, the above person seems to be rhyming it with whiny, rather than mini.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:47 pm UTC

Oh, I hadn't noticed that.

chridd wrote:I'd probably pronounce Pliny /ˈplaɪn.i/ (rhymes with "whiny" but not "plenty")

Yeah, I don't think this is correct at all.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:07 pm UTC

I'd say "correct" with regard to classical Latin names is a bit mushy to begin with, though. It's not like people pronounce Cicero or Julius Caesar the way they were originally, either.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:17 pm UTC

True, but there are modern standards. Speaking as someone whose name is an Anglicisation of a Latin name in exactly the same way as "Pliny" is, there are definitely wrong ways to pronounce my name.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby slinches » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:44 am UTC

How many ways are there to pronounce Flicky?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:02 am UTC

:roll: No, "flicky" isn't an Anglicisation of some Latin "Fliccius". :P

For the record, the name's Anthony. I'll grudgingly admit that the American pronunciation where the "th" is pronounced as in "thin" isn't exactly a wrong pronunciation (it's not my name, but it's a name), but pronouncing it something like "an-TOH-nee" would to me be the equivalent of chridd's "PLIE-nee".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:34 am UTC

And yet both pronunciations are used. Here is a brewer from Russian River talking about one of their beers called Pliny the Younger.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:37 am UTC

flicky1991 wrote:For the record, the name's Anthony. I'll grudgingly admit that the American pronunciation where the "th" is pronounced as in "thin" isn't exactly a wrong pronunciation (it's not my name, but it's a name),

What other ways are there to pronounce "Anthony" (in English)?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:42 am UTC

Derek wrote:What other ways are there to pronounce "Anthony" (in English)?

In England the usual pronunciation is identical to "Antony".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:37 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:
Derek wrote:What other ways are there to pronounce "Anthony" (in English)?

In England the usual pronunciation is identical to "Antony".

I thought you said that wasn't correct:
but pronouncing it something like "an-TOH-nee" would to me be the equivalent of chridd's "PLIE-nee".

Or do you just mean that the stress is wrong in "an-TOH-nee"? I took you to meant that the /t/ pronunciation was wrong.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:47 pm UTC

I'm still trying to figure out how "toh" is pronounced.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:12 pm UTC

In the UK the stress is usually initial with the <o> as a schwa.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:37 pm UTC

Derek wrote:Or do you just mean that the stress is wrong in "an-TOH-nee"? I took you to meant that the /t/ pronunciation was wrong.

Sorry, yes, it was the stress and the vowel sound that were wrong there, not the "t".

Eebster the Great wrote:I'm still trying to figure out how "toh" is pronounced.

Like the word "toe". I wasn't sure of the best way to represent it, but I always worry if I use IPA that I'll be definitively wrong rather than just confusing...
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Flumble » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:22 am UTC

flicky1991 wrote:I wasn't sure of the best way to represent it, but I always worry if I use IPA that I'll be definitively wrong rather than just confusing...

Bookmark the IPA vowel chart with audio so you can listen to the vowels and copy the character that best represents what you think you hear. :D
Then again, the oe in toe is written as the diphtong /əʊ/ in RP English, though I pronounce/hear a much further closed ending (ʋ) than ʊ.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:28 am UTC

Ooh, thanks for that link!
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