Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:27 pm UTC

Derek wrote:Pronouncing the first R in "February" sounds British to me. I'm not sure how accurate that is.

I'm British. It definitely doesn't sound British to me!
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:28 pm UTC

OFF-ten
in-fra-RED
FEB-ru-ARY
CRAY-on

WEN-nss-day
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:47 am UTC

/ˈɑf.n̩/ or /ˈɑf.tn̩/ (either, I think I'm probably more likely to pronounce the t when it's stressed)
/ˈfeb.ju.eɹ.i/
/ˈɪn.fɹə.ˈɹɛd/ (but I don't say it that off-ten)
/ˈkɹeɪ.ɑn/, but when I was younger /ˈkɹaʊn/ (homophone of "crown") (or at least people around me pronounced it that way)
/ˈwenz.deɪ/
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:05 am UTC

Infrared, past participle of infrare
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:00 pm UTC

That's how I like my steaks. Infinitely rare.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:37 pm UTC

Do you pronounce "bazaar" and "bizarre" the same way? I do. /bəzɑɹ/. Dictionaries say that "bizarre" is /bɪzɑɹ/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:40 pm UTC

I have the /ɪ/ in "bizarre".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby ahammel » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:46 pm UTC

Mega85 wrote:Do you pronounce "bazaar" and "bizarre" the same way? I do. /bəzɑɹ/. Dictionaries say that "bizarre" is /bɪzɑɹ/.

I pronounce both with the schwa. Otherwise it ruins the pun.

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"Oh, that explains it."
"Explains what?"
"It's a little bizarre."
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Grop » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:29 pm UTC

Angua wrote:FEB-ru-ARY


The r in ru in pronunced right?

Monika wrote:Infrared, past participle of infrare


Remove a d, and it suddenly looks Latin.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:50 pm UTC

Grop wrote:
Angua wrote:FEB-ru-ARY


The r in ru in pronunced right?
yes
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:00 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:Do you pronounce "bazaar" and "bizarre" the same way? I do. /bəzɑɹ/. Dictionaries say that "bizarre" is /bɪzɑɹ/.

That's the weak vowel merger. Typically, American English merges most (though not all) cases of unstressed [ɪ] into [ǝ], whereas British English tends to keep them distinct.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:
Mega85 wrote:Do you pronounce "bazaar" and "bizarre" the same way? I do. /bəzɑɹ/. Dictionaries say that "bizarre" is /bɪzɑɹ/.

That's the weak vowel merger. Typically, American English merges most (though not all) cases of unstressed [ɪ] into [ǝ], whereas British English tends to keep them distinct.


I've read that Australian English and New Zealand English tend to have a more extensive weak vowel merger than American English. They typically merge the words "Rosa's" and "roses". I don't merge those two words. They are distinct for me.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:45 pm UTC

Mega85 wrote:Do you pronounce "bazaar" and "bizarre" the same way? I do. /bəzɑɹ/. Dictionaries say that "bizarre" is /bɪzɑɹ/.

I would say I pronounce it /bᵻzɑɹ/. It's reduced, but not all the way to a schwa. Close enough to make puns though.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:19 pm UTC

Mega85 wrote:
Lazar wrote:
Mega85 wrote:Do you pronounce "bazaar" and "bizarre" the same way? I do. /bəzɑɹ/. Dictionaries say that "bizarre" is /bɪzɑɹ/.

That's the weak vowel merger. Typically, American English merges most (though not all) cases of unstressed [ɪ] into [ǝ], whereas British English tends to keep them distinct.


I've read that Australian English and New Zealand English tend to have a more extensive weak vowel merger than American English. They typically merge the words "Rosa's" and "roses". I don't merge those two words. They are distinct for me.

So, Down Under, Moses supposes Rosa's toeses are roses?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:51 pm UTC

Do you pronounce "herbivore" with an initial /h/? I do, even though I don't use a /h/ in "herb".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby ahammel » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:28 pm UTC

I have an initial h in "herb" and "herbivore", and "an history" sounds weird to me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:56 pm UTC

I've only heard an h-less "herbivore" once, in the song "I Am A Paleontologist" by They Might Be Giants.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:16 pm UTC

I say "herb" and "herbal" without the /h/, but "herbivore" and "herbivorous" with it. (And I say "a historical".)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby freezeblade » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:17 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:I say "herb" and "herbal" without the /h/, but "herbivore" and "herbivorous" with it. (And I say "a historical".)


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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:23 am UTC

I'm an RP-speaking brit so I have the reverse: "herb", "herbivore", "an istorian" (but I'd probably go with "the historian"). I think hotel follows the same pattern as historian for me.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:41 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:Do you pronounce "herbivore" with an initial /h/? I do, even though I don't use a /h/ in "herb".


Nope -- I also pronounce herb without it as well.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:08 am UTC

"Herbivore" definitely without the H.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:53 am UTC

I think I'm inconsistent on whether I pronounce the h in herbivore (but wouldn't pronounce it in herb).
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:33 am UTC

For me, the h in "herb" is always silent and the h in "Herbert" is always pronounced. As I understand it, in RP the opposite is typical.

My pronunciation would extend to derived forms like "herbal," "herbalist," and "herbivore"--the h is always silent. Similarly, I do pronounce the h in the shortened name "Herb" (though I don't actually know anybody with the name).

I find it sounds strange to use "an" before any word starting with a consonant sound, including words like "historic" with an h starting an unstressed initial syllable. It would always be "a". But I know this isn't true of all Americans, and I do hear it the other way around from time to time. It is interesting that in the King James (Authorized) Version of the Bible, "an" is used before many words starting with h, even when the initial syllable is stressed, as in "an hundred."

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:41 am UTC

RP definitely pronounces the h in Herbert (as well as in herb)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:20 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:For me, the h in "herb" is always silent and the h in "Herbert" is always pronounced. As I understand it, in RP the opposite is typical.

The stereotypical silent "h" in many English accents does not occur in RP. It's more associated with Cockney accents.

As a Cockney myself, though, I generally make an exception for names. I'd only drop the "H" in "Herbert" if I was using it in its rare sense as a generic noun ("You 'orrible little 'Erbert!"), not if I was talking about a person called Herbert.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:45 pm UTC

I don't pronounce the 'h' in 'herb', 'herbal', or 'herbivore', but do in 'history', 'historian', etc.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:11 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:For me, the h in "herb" is always silent and the h in "Herbert" is always pronounced. As I understand it, in RP the opposite is typical.

The stereotypical silent "h" in many English accents does not occur in RP. It's more associated with Cockney accents.


Yeah. in RP the h-dropping essentially boils down to a set of shibboleths whereby a certain subset of romance (mostly french) words are pronounced in a more continental h-less style whilst other romance words keep their h (cf. herb and hostel both with their h but hotel and historian traditionally without)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:29 am UTC

Does anyone insert an "l" sound in "both" or "only"? I don't, but I've heard people say "bolth" and "olnly".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:18 am UTC

I don't think I've ever heard that.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:42 am UTC

I've heard of it in "both", though I don't have it.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby HES » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:28 pm UTC

I've only heard it in both.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:31 am UTC

I don't have it, but I've heard in in "both". I tend to associate it with older New York state (not city) residents, but I have no idea whether that impression is at all correct.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:45 pm UTC

Caught–court merger
In Wells' terminology, this consists of the merger of the lexical sets THOUGHT and FORCE. It is found in those non-rhotic accents containing the pawn–porn merger that have also undergone the horse–hoarse merger. These include the accents of Southern England, Wales, non-rhotic New York City speakers, Trinidad and the Southern hemisphere. In such accents a three-way merger awe-or-ore/oar results. However, Labov et al. suggest that, in New York City English, this merger is present in perception not production. As in, although even locals perceive themselves using the same vowel in both cases, they tend to produce the force higher and more retracted than the vowel of thought.[30]


from Wikipedia.

This seems strange. New York City English speakers apparently make a difference between the vowels in "caught" and "court", but don't think they do.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:58 am UTC

Fascinating.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:45 pm UTC

Do you pronounce "absent" as "apsent"? I do. Dictionaries say "ab sent", but I say it as "ap sent".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:54 pm UTC

In this song, John Linnell is intentionally singing in some kind of New England accent. How would you describe the way he pronounces "organ", phonetically? It almost sounds like "argan".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:52 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:Do you pronounce "absent" as "apsent"? I do. Dictionaries say "ab sent", but I say it as "ap sent".

I was going to say "absent", but now I'm not sure that I'm consistent about it. It's definitely "absent" if I'm enunciating, but in faster speech it's probably closer to "apsent".

flicky1991 wrote:In this song, John Linnell is intentionally singing in some kind of New England accent. How would you describe the way he pronounces "organ", phonetically? It almost sounds like "argan".

/ɑ:ɡən/ or /a:ɡən/. I believe this is the card-cord merger. It could also just be an overgeneralization of the accents that pronounce words like "origin" and "Florida" with an /ɑr/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:10 am UTC

I say "absent" with [b̥], a voiceless lenis stop. "Apsent" would sound slightly different.

flicky1991 wrote:In this song, John Linnell is intentionally singing in some kind of New England accent. How would you describe the way he pronounces "organ", phonetically? It almost sounds like "argan".

Yeah, it sounds like he's aiming for Boston. A traditional Boston accent merges "cord" and "cod" as [ˈkʰɒːd] but keeps "card" distinct as [ˈkʰaːd] – but since he's a New Yorker and not totally familiar with the accent here, he seems to just be mashing them together with [ɑː~aː].
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:11 am UTC

I think English speakers are generally not great at distinguishing between certain voiced, unaspirated constants and unvoiced, unaspirated constants, like b and p, t and d, or k and g. Consider the fast food restaurant Sbarro's. How do you say it? Or Tao?


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