Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:22 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I think English speakers are generally not great at distinguishing between certain voiced, unaspirated constants and unvoiced, unaspirated constants, like b and p, t and d, or k and g. Consider the fast food restaurant Sbarro's. How do you say it? Or Tao?


For Sbarro, I've heard both "suh barro" /səbɑɹoʊ/ and "sparro" /spɑɹoʊ/. I say /səbɑɹoʊ/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:13 pm UTC

I say /sbɑɹoʊ/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:14 pm UTC

How do you pronounce "get"? I pronounce it to rhyme with "hit". I also pronounced "forget" as "forgit".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:25 am UTC

Pretty sure /ˈɡɛt/, /foɹ.ˈɡɛt/ (rhymes with set, pet, bet, etc.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:22 am UTC

I say /ˈɡɛt/ (rhymes with "set"), but there are quite a few people around here who say /ˈgɪt/ (rhymes with "sit"). I used to think it was a pen/pin merger thing, but now I believe it is entirely separate.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:18 am UTC

/ˈgɛt/ is what I use and what I generally hear around here. But yeah, I agree that while pen-pin mergers usually seem to have /ˈgɪt/, not all /ˈgɪt/ users have the merger. If I remember correctly, Ben Franklin used "git" when he wrote letters in his phonetic alphabet.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:23 pm UTC

Even people who rhyme it with "set" often pronounce it a little like "gyet", so it's not surprising that this sometimes goes further and results in "git" or something like it.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby freezeblade » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I say /ˈɡɛt/ (rhymes with "set"), but there are quite a few people around here who say /ˈgɪt/ (rhymes with "sit"). I used to think it was a pen/pin merger thing, but now I believe it is entirely separate.


I am one of the people who rhyme "forget" with "sit" but I do not have the pen-pin merger.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:01 am UTC

I've heard that are people in New England that pronounce "got" as "gut". What about words like "gotta", "gotten", "forgot", "forgotten", "begot" and "begotten"? Do they have the "gut" pronunciation in these words as well?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:56 pm UTC

Yes, I was* a user of /gʌt/. I had /ʌ/ in "gotta", "gotten", "forgot" and "forgotten", but I think I had /ɒː/ in "begot" and "begotten".

*I've since switched to the "short-o" version, though. My accent was an ENE-GA hybrid from the start, and in the past decade or go I've made many conscious modifications to it.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat May 06, 2017 2:34 pm UTC

Does anyone pronounce the "l" in "walk" and "talk"? I've heard Southerners say /wɑlk/ and /tɑlk/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Sat May 06, 2017 3:21 pm UTC

I do. Walk shouldn't sound like wok. Tick talk isn't the same as tick-tock. Also balk, Falkner, caulk. These don't rhyme with bock, Fockner, cock. I didn't know it was unusual. However, with a heavy southern accent (or maybe it's the Appalachian accent I mentioned earlier) I've also heard people from around here say it more like "wawk" or "tawk".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sat May 06, 2017 3:58 pm UTC

I definitely don't have an "l" in those words but it's not the same as if there was no "l" at all... I'd say "wawk" and "tawk" are good representations of it.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby ahammel » Sat May 06, 2017 4:20 pm UTC

That's the caught-cot merger, isn't it?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sat May 06, 2017 4:22 pm UTC

I don't think it's the same. "Cot" and "caught" both have different vowels from a hypothetical "calt" (rhyming with "Walt") to me. For reference, for me "caught" and "court" are homophones.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sat May 06, 2017 5:07 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:That's the caught-cot merger, isn't it?

Is silent l in walk and talk the caught-cot merger? No. In Standard American English and standard British English (and I think most others, too) the l is silent, only a few dialects pronounce it (with silent I mean it's not pronounced like l ... it still influences the a sound before, similar as a w would). But the caught-cot merger is not part of the standard US American and British variants (even though it's widespread in the US and occurs in some parts of the UK), it's considered dialect (in the sense of non-standard ... of course in some way the standard language is also just a dialect, the most prestigious one, but that's not the meaning I'm using here). It's part of Standard Canadian English though.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat May 06, 2017 7:58 pm UTC

How do you pronounce "hurricane"? I pronounce it "hur i cane", but I've heard some people say it like "hurrikin".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat May 06, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

I pronounce words like "walk," "talk," "caulk," etc. with /ɔ/, so /wɔk/, /tɔk/, and /cɔk/. They do not rhyme with "wok" (/wɒk/), "tock" (/tɒk/), and "cock" (/cɒk/).But in many dialects they do rhyme, and that is precisely the caught-cot merger, where /cɔt/ becomes /cɒt/, or both become something intermediate. So for me, even though the l is silent, it still has a phonetic role, like the e in the word "time". For people with the merger, it has no role, like the e in "come".

I don't think I've ever heard the "l" in those words actually pronounced, like it is in "salt" (/sɔʟt/), but it wouldn't surprise me if some people do pronounce it.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sat May 06, 2017 8:09 pm UTC

I don't pronounce the "l" in "salt" either. The middle of "salt" and "walk" match for me.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sun May 07, 2017 12:00 am UTC

For me:
walk, talk /wɑk/, /tɑk/ - silent l, same vowel as wok, tock, cot, and caught (unrounded vowel)
balk, Falkner, caulk are uncommon enough that I'm not sure I have a normal pronunciation (I might have a spelling pronunciation) but I think I'd be inclined to pronounce the l
salt /sɑlt/ - pronounced l
palm, calm /pɑlm/, /kɑlm/ - pronounced l
hurricane - /ˈhɚ.ɪ.keɪn/ (hur i cane)
Eebster the Great wrote:I pronounce words like "walk," "talk," "caulk," etc. with /ɔ/, so /wɔk/, /tɔk/, and /cɔk/. They do not rhyme with "wok" (/wɒk/), "tock" (/tɒk/), and "cock" (/cɒk/).But in many dialects they do rhyme, and that is precisely the caught-cot merger, where /cɔt/ becomes /cɒt/, or both become something intermediate. So for me, even though the l is silent, it still has a phonetic role, like the e in the word "time". For people with the merger, it has no role, like the e in "come".
I'd say the l is still more like the e in time, because otherwise the words would be pronounced like /wæk/, /tæk/ (whack, tack).
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun May 07, 2017 5:08 am UTC

chridd wrote:I'd say the l is still more like the e in time, because otherwise the words would be pronounced like /wæk/, /tæk/ (whack, tack).

Good point (with the exception of "caulk").

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Mon May 08, 2017 11:03 am UTC

I don't really pronounce the l, but it does change the vowel. I have the caught-bot merger, but there is a difference in how I say "tock" and "talk". I'm having trouble putting my finger on it exactly what it is though.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Mon May 08, 2017 7:42 pm UTC

I think the l makes the vowel sound even longer? Like the l is almost pronounced, but not quite, so it elongates it? Iunno.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Tue May 09, 2017 2:00 pm UTC

For me, with the caught/cot merger, I pronounce talk/tock, walk/wok, and other pairs like that slightly differently. It's variable, but it's almost like I barely pronounce the l. If there were such a thing, I'd say I use an "l colored vowel". There is a slight movement of my tongue when I say the vowel. I don't fully articulate the l, but the hint of the sound is there

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Tue May 09, 2017 3:38 pm UTC

In RP, are the words court and cot homophones? What about court and caught? Besides RP, any other non-rhotic dialects where these are homophones?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Tue May 09, 2017 4:38 pm UTC

None of those are homophones in strict RP, I believe, although court/caught generally match in non-rhotic British accents as far as I know (they do for me).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue May 09, 2017 9:55 pm UTC

In traditional or conservative RP "caught" and "court" are not homonyms, as conservative RP lacks the horse-hoarse merger. In traditional RP:

"horse" = /hɔːs/
"hoarse = /hoəs/

"caught" = /kɔːt/
"court" = /coət/

Modern RP has the horse-hoarse merger, and so "caught" and "court" are homonyms. In modern RP:

"horse" = /hɔːs/
"hoarse" = /hɔːs/

"caught" = /kɔːt/
"court" = /kɔːt/

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Tue May 09, 2017 10:33 pm UTC

I (RP speaker) think I might have:

"caught" = /kɔt/
"court" = /kɔːt/

"horse" = /hɔs/
"hoarse" = /hɔːs/

I'm not sure though. I might be creating that difference out of nothing though; it's always hard to analyse small differences in your own speech. Any difference between the two is definitely small. I guess it's possible that I'm at a halfway house between the old-school RP and more modern; RP is definitely quite sliding-scale-y.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Thu May 11, 2017 10:24 pm UTC

So, I thought I was crazy when I moved to England and had been spelling lightning wrong all these years (I spelled as lightening) but now have seen a couple different people from home spell it such on facebook, wondering if it's a regional thing there and am not so crazy after all!
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Fri May 12, 2017 12:15 am UTC

I did that as a kid. I can't really speculate reasons beyond the obvious, that "lightening" is another word that exists and "lightning" sometimes sounds as if it's said that way, with the N becoming syllabic.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri May 12, 2017 12:16 am UTC

Angua wrote:So, I thought I was crazy when I moved to England and had been spelling lightning wrong all these years (I spelled as lightening) but now have seen a couple different people from home spell it such on facebook, wondering if it's a regional thing there and am not so crazy after all!

"Lightening" is the present participle of "lighten," as in "Thank you for lightening my load." I have occasionally seen "lightning" spelled that way, but never in a formal publication, and I always assumed it was just an error. I doubt that it is regionally associated.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Fri May 12, 2017 5:06 am UTC


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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Fri May 12, 2017 11:25 am UTC

I have never heard that it's a legitimate spelling, but I have often seen it misspelled that way.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed May 31, 2017 1:08 am UTC

"pee can" is a can to pee in.

"puh cahn" is a type of pie.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed May 31, 2017 5:54 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:"pee can" is a can to pee in.

"puh cahn" is a type of pie.

Okay, but what's a "pee cahn"?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby freezeblade » Wed May 31, 2017 2:44 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
Mega85 wrote:"pee can" is a can to pee in.

"puh cahn" is a type of pie.

Okay, but what's a "pee cahn"?


This is how my locality pronounces it as well.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed May 31, 2017 6:53 pm UTC

/pɪ 'kɑːn/ here, central US Midwest, I think.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed May 31, 2017 10:56 pm UTC

How do say "idea"? I pronounce it with two syllable, with the second syllable sounding like a nonrhotic pronunciation of "dear".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:16 am UTC

Wiktionary seems to indicate that's roughly standard, US "idea" as /aɪˈdiə/ , RP "dear" as /dɪə/ . I honestly never noticed how odd that little diphthong is but do the same thing. For some reason it seems to either get emphasized out into two full syllables or have the /i/ reduced to /j/ in all the -ia ending words I can think of....
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:13 am UTC

That diphthong is getting unusual even amongst RP speakers these days. I have it as a diphthong but most of my friends (who speak various different forms of RP) have it split into two distinct syllables.
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