Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:08 pm UTC

anyone here pronounce "want" as "wunt"? i do. before vowels, the "t" in "want" drops, so "want a" and "won a", as well as "want it" and "won it" sound the same.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:23 pm UTC

I don't – it's [wɒːn(t)] for me – but I'm aware of the version with [ʌ]. It's somewhat common in the US and can even pop up in Britain too. (Mark Kermode uses it.)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:49 am UTC

Where I grew up in East Tennessee, for most of my life I heard the local dialect referred to as Southern. When I would see actors in films and television affecting a Southern accent, I would often roll my eyes as I found it instantly recognizable as unauthentic. It was only when I was a bit older that I realized that the Southern accent being imitated by actors was more of what I'd call a Georgia accent (like Foghorn Leghorn, or Scarlett O'Hara in Gone With The Wind), and it's now more common for me to associate the local dialect and accent of my region with the term Appalachian. That's a term I only recently learned through the internet. Around here, people still recognize someone as being foreign or from the North if they don't talk "Southern". Nobody refers to their own dialect as Appalachian, at least not that I've encountered. But some of the more extreme versions of this dialect I have heard referred to as "hillbilly", or sometimes as "country" as in, "he talks country, and so does his wife."

To try to illustrate the difference, if Foghorn Leghorn were to encounter a stranger, he might say, "Ah say bo-ah, what-a-yoo doin' around he-yah?" (I say boy, what (are) you doing around here?). In my Appalachian accent, would be far more common for this to sound like, "Say bo-ah, whatchoo doin' round ear?"

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am UTC

Yeah – tradtionally, Southern speech could be divided (in very simplistic terms) into upland and lowland varieties. The latter were known for their non-rhoticity (r-dropping), and seemed to hold a greater grasp on the national imagination. But in recent decades, from what I can tell, the division has begun to blur: upland traits seem to be more dominant on the whole, while some innovative traits have arisen as well.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:19 pm UTC

Appalachian is generally considered a different (though I suppose related) dialect from Southern. In addition there are significant differences between old Southern (basically pre-WWII, from what I recall reading) and modern Southern dialects, rhoticity being the most notable.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:21 am UTC

One area where there seems to be a lot of variation in English is schwa deletion before /ɹ/. Here's an incomplete summary of my usage, which seems to follow few, if any, consistent rules:

Spoiler:
Reduced
admirable (yes, that's /mɹ/ in an onset)
admiral
average
beverage
boisterous
camera
comparable
considerable
corporal
deliberate
desperate
elementary
favorable
favorite
federal
funeral
general
honorable
leverage
liberal
literature
miserable
numeral
opera
operative
preferable
separable
separate
several

Unreduced
considerate
degenerate
ephemeral
-erous (all except "boisterous")
-ery (all, I think)
grocery
history
lateral
literal
literate
littoral
mineral
memory
moderate
peripheral
victory

Mixed
confederate
deliverance
literally
severance
Last edited by Lazar on Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:40 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:40 am UTC

Fascinating.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:13 am UTC

Lazar wrote:One area where there seems to be a lot of variation in English is schwa deletion before /ɹ/. Here's an incomplete summary of my usage, which seems to follow few, if any, consistent rules:

separate


i have schwa deletion in the adjective "separate", but not in the verb. what about "camera" and "cabinet"? i have schwa deletion in those. okay, "cabinet" doesn't really have the schwa before an "r", but i have deletion there.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:56 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:i have schwa deletion in the adjective "separate", but not in the verb.

Same here, but I don't know if it works when the vowel following the r is full and has relative stress. The vowels following the r are all [ə], [ɨ], and maybe sometimes [ʌ] or [i] ("boisterous" and "victory"). Definitely not [ej]. English likes alternating stress patterns, and I kinda wonder if that's why some of these deletions happen in the first place, that we don't like doing [əɹə] for some reason.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:39 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:i have schwa deletion in the adjective "separate", but not in the verb.

Yeah, I only meant the adjective – the verb has three syllables for me.

what about "camera" and "cabinet"? i have schwa deletion in those. okay, "cabinet" doesn't really have the schwa before an "r", but i have deletion there.

I reduce in both of those, yeah. I considered expanding to schwa deletion before /l/ and other things, but I figured the word list might get too unwieldy.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:24 pm UTC

do you pronounce "world" with one syllable or two syllables? i have two syllables "wor-ld". the word comes from "wer" +‎ "eld" so i wonder if my two syllable pronunciation is the preservation of an older pronunciation, rather than an innovation.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:46 pm UTC

Mega85 wrote:do you pronounce "world" with one syllable or two syllables? i have two syllables "wor-ld". the word comes from "wer" +‎ "eld" so i wonder if my two syllable pronunciation is the preservation of an older pronunciation, rather than an innovation.


Usually one, but sometimes two with a really short schwa as the vowel in the last syllable.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:48 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:One area where there seems to be a lot of variation in English is schwa deletion before /ɹ/. Here's an incomplete summary of my usage, which seems to follow few, if any, consistent rules:
My idiolect:
Spoiler:
Reduced (usually)
average
boisterous
camera
desperate
favorite
opera
separate (adj.)
several

Unreduced
admirable (yes, that's /mɹ/ in an onset)
admiral
comparable (though I might pronounce it with second-syllable stress)
considerable
corporal
deliberate
favorable
federal
funeral
general
honorable
liberal
literature
numeral
operative
preferable (though I'd probably pronounce it with second-syllable stress)
separable
cabinet
Everything Lazar put in "unreduced" or "mixed"

Mixed/unsure
elementary
leverage
miserable
Also, "grocery" is /ˈɡroʊʃ.ɹi/, which I've heard is different in different dialects.

Mega85 wrote:do you pronounce "world" with one syllable or two syllables? i have two syllables "wor-ld". the word comes from "wer" +‎ "eld" so i wonder if my two syllable pronunciation is the preservation of an older pronunciation, rather than an innovation.
Two, same with all words like that containing rl (and most long vowels + l).
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:34 pm UTC

"Grocery" is three syllables for me, with /s/.

…But "world" is one. For me /l/ causes syllabic breaking after /aɪ/, /aʊ/ and /ɔɪ/ ("Kyle", "cowl", "coil"), but not after /eɪ/, /oʊ/, /iː/, /uː/, /ɑːɹ/ or /ɚː/ ("kale", "Cole", "keel", "cool", "Carl", "curl").
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:45 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Reduced
average
beverage
boisterous
camera
deliberate
desperate
elementary
favorite
grocery
leverage
liberal
opera
operative
separate
several

Unreduced
admirable
admiral
comparable (Stress is on the middle syllable, so it can't be reduced. When I hear it reduced, stress is placed on the first syllable.)
confederate
considerable
considerate
corporal
degenerate
ephemeral
favorable
federal
funeral
general
history
honorable
lateral
literal
literally
literate
literature
littoral
memory
mineral
miserable
moderate
numeral
peripheral
preferable
victory

Mixed
deliverance
separable
severance

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:41 pm UTC

how do you pronounce "citizen"? do you pronounce the "z" like a "z" or like an "s"? i pronounce it with a /s/ sound.

how do you pronounce "caramel"? do you pronounce the middle "a"? also do you use a full vowel in the last syllable or do you reduce the "e"?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:28 pm UTC

I pronounce "citizen" with a /z/ (never heard /s/ in it). I pronounce caramel as three syllables and don't reduce the "e".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:48 pm UTC

Citizen with /z/, although I may have used /s/ when I was younger; I'm not certain. Caramel is [ˈkʰæɹəmɫ̩].
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:56 am UTC

I say citizen with an /s/ always.

Caramel is [ˈkʰɑɹmɫ̩] for me.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:10 am UTC

Citizen has a /z/ for me (I feel like it's a voiced assymilation because I have a syllabic n rather than a schwa following it).

Caramel is /'cærəmɛl/ for me. I think the /l/ is unvelarised but I might be wrong.

(I'm an RP speaker)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:56 pm UTC

The strut vowel, rather than the lot or thought vowel, is used in the function words was, of, from, what, everybody, nobody, somebody, anybody, and, for some speakers, because and want, when stressed. This is directly due to influence of the Irish language.


from the Wikipedia article on American English. Is this really due to the influence of the Irish language? I thought it was just a sound change that occurred that shifted the LOT vowel to the STRUT vowel in highly frequent words. I've heard older southerners who use the LOT vowel in such words.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:43 pm UTC

Yeah… that's nonsense. Magical Irish-language influence seems to be one of the favorite tropes of folk linguists for some reason. And I'm pretty sure those pronunciations aren't used in Irish English.

My understanding is that they arose by reanalysis: in all or most dialects those words tend to have unstressed forms with schwa, and in NAmEng it was reconstructed to STRUT in the less common stressed forms. (This may have been egged on by the loss of LOT as a distinct checked phoneme.) I've heard them with LOT from New Yorkers, but here in New England – as in most of the country – STRUT is near universal.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:32 pm UTC

You know, on the one hand, it's good that the offending comment is at least followed by a "clarification needed". On the other, it's also followed by four citations - all of them to dictionary entries for the word "want", not all of which even include pronunciation.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:37 pm UTC

Do most Americans use /ʌ/ in stressed ".*body" words? I've heard such pronunciations enough that it's unremarkable, but I wouldn't call it standard. "Because" with /ʌ/ I would reckon at about 50/50, all the others I would say /ʌ/ is standard in American.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:48 am UTC

I think /…bʌdi/ is predominant, though not as strongly as the others. (Merriam Webster shows it first for both "anybody" and "everybody".) I'd say the same of "because" as well – note the American preference for "'cuz" and the British preference for "'cos" in written form.

For "want", I think /ʌ/ is limited to a substantial minority. Much rarer, though, is /ʌ/ in "got", which pops up here in New England but nowhere else as far as I know.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:06 am UTC

I have STRUT in all the words mentioned (except "got"; haven't heard of that before). Citizen has /z/ (I mean, it's spelled with <z>, why would it have anything else? I feel like I might have heard it with /s/ but thought of it as more an artifact of talking fast rather than that they were actually trying to pronounce it with /s/? It's possible I'd also use /s/ in less-careful speech.); caramel is usually /kɑɹml̩/ for me, but I feel like there might be some context where I'd use /keɹəmɛl/ (I feel like I've heard the latter pronunciation when it's used as a count noun, "caramels", though I wouldn't use it as a count noun myself and I'm not even sure what that would mean).
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:08 pm UTC

chridd wrote:Citizen has /z/ (I mean, it's spelled with <z>, why would it have anything else?


That's like saying "pretty has /ɛ/ it's spelled with <e>, why would it have anything else?" Spelling doesn't always match pronunciation.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:01 pm UTC

Someone on Wikipedia from central New Jersey says they distinguish between the vowels "father" and "bother".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_ ... ed_a.C9.AA

Father is pronounced as [fɒðɝ], and bother is pronounced as [bäðɝ]


This is interesting as it seems to be a reversal of the traditional vowels. "father" having a rounded vowel and "bother" having an unrounded vowel.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:38 pm UTC

Yeah, I've heard from a few other sources that that can occur in the NYC area.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:22 pm UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDc2xFjVerI

Anyone have any idea what vowel is being used in "on" in this song? It sounds like a pretty extreme vowel to me.

"party in the city where the heat is on. All night, on the beach till the break of dawn."

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:22 am UTC

Sounds like a true mid [o̞ː], similar to THOUGHT in RP.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:33 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:You know, on the one hand, it's good that the offending comment is at least followed by a "clarification needed". On the other, it's also followed by four citations - all of them to dictionary entries for the word "want", not all of which even include pronunciation.


It looks like the comment that such is due to influence from the Irish English got removed from the page. Yeah, it was nonsense.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:40 pm UTC

Ah, good. It's nice when these stories have a happy ending. = ]
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:32 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:For "want", I think /ʌ/ is limited to a substantial minority. Much rarer, though, is /ʌ/ in "got", which pops up here in New England but nowhere else as far as I know.

Do you mean that you think /wʌnt/ is a minority in the US for "want"? I don't think that's right, it seems to be by far the majority to me.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:27 pm UTC

I would, like Lazar, have guessed that /wʌnt/ is a minority, but that might be a parochial impression.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:40 pm UTC

Derek wrote:Do you mean that you think /wʌnt/ is a minority in the US for "want"? I don't think that's right, it seems to be by far the majority to me.

Yes. For an unscientific example, of the seven Americans who've given pronunciations of "want" on Forvo, it sounds to me like only two ("Howard" and "Superluke919") are using /ʌ/. Either way, though, I think this is likely one of those subtle, little-noticed differences where we all tend to assume that we're in the majority.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:45 am UTC

Lazar wrote:
Derek wrote:Do you mean that you think /wʌnt/ is a minority in the US for "want"? I don't think that's right, it seems to be by far the majority to me.

Yes. For an unscientific example, of the seven Americans who've given pronunciations of "want" on Forvo, it sounds to me like only two ("Howard" and "Superluke919") are using /ʌ/. Either way, though, I think this is likely one of those subtle, little-noticed differences where we all tend to assume that we're in the majority.


Yeah. I would say that /ʌ/ in "want" is a minority pronunciation in America, but not a small minority. It's common enough that those who don't use it probably won't usually notice it.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:18 am UTC

I would say /wɒnt/ or /wɑnt/ or something similar, not /wʌnt/. In other words, my "want" would definitely not rhyme with "punt." It roughly rhymes with "font" (though sometimes my "font" comes closer to "taunt").

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:48 pm UTC

Although I'd never say want to rhyme with punt, I'd sometimes make it rhyme with font (which rhymes with taunt), but sometimes the vowel in want sounds like the vowel (diphthong?) in squander (which also sounds like wander).

But, you all don't pronounce every word the same way each time you say the word, right? It can't be just me. I'm likely to change vowel or consonant sounds in any sentence. An especially common variation is for me to pronounce the soft th, as in there or those, as the letter d, making it dare or doze (which I probably picked up in my youth from Bugs Bunny). I don't always do that, and I suppose it is most likely to happen when I'm speaking with an audience I'm comfortable with, or when talking fast regardless of who is my audience.

Here is an example. If talking quickly, such as if I'm in a hurry, stressed, or under the influence of caffeine, I might say something like, "What about dat one ova dare?" When I'm speaking more slowly, such as when I'm relaxed or tired, I'm more likely to say, "What about that one over there?"

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:28 pm UTC

Yeah, my "want" vowel varies from "wand" to "font" depending on context.


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