Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:04 am UTC

Spelling reform suggestion: no more e after v if the vowel before is short (e.g. relativ, nativ, hav, liv, giv, shov). I'm undecided for words like lov(e) and dov(e): Låv and dåv or lāv and dāv would be neat but of course that's not going to happen because keyboards.

Replace ph with f e.g. fone, come on, hop on the trend, everyone else has been doing it, Italian all the way a long time ago, Danish recently all the way, German half way (telefonieren but Philosophie).

Genuine should be either genueen or genuin. Seriously you are just doing this to confuse us foreigners admit it.

Admittedly schedule and future look prettier the way they are now but pronounciationwise they should be something like futshure and schedjule like where are these j/sh sounds in the middle even coming from?

There is no hope for vowels like that one in worry anyway, so just leave them as they are.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:29 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Dear God, make it stop.


Hear, hear. I'm rolling my eyes along with you.

We can have either a standardized spelling system or spelling that always reflects pronunciation, but not both. And yes, color/colour, center/centre, etc. notwithstanding, we do have a standardized spelling system that allows people with vastly different accents to understand each other.

Monika wrote:Spelling reform suggestion: no more e after v if the vowel before is short (e.g. relativ, nativ, hav, liv, giv, shov). I'm undecided for words like lov(e) and dov(e): Låv and dåv or lāv and dāv would be neat but of course that's not going to happen because keyboards.


I realize this is tongue-in-cheek, but honestly, if I read the word "nativ", I would automatically parse it as foreign and probably want to pronounce it /nɑ 'tiv/. "Låv" or "lāv" I would pronounce /lɑ:v/, whereas I pronounce "love" /lʌv/. And "futshure" I would probably pronounce /'fʌt ʃɔɹ/. (If I had to try to "phonetically" spell "future", it'd probably be something like "fyootcher").
Last edited by Aiwendil on Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:10 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:52 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
The SSWD project is about NEEDED change, and preferably changes that people can readily apply to things they HEAR. One transliteration for a small range of actual sounds is convenient, and all spelling is convention. Few speakers of standard English distinguish in sound between "ferry" and "furry". Having a distinction in spelling for these two HOMONYMS is useful. As to which spelling you favor for a reform of "worry", I have noted that you favor "wurry".

If by "standard English" he means "RP," that might be true, but very few people speak that way natively. He might as well say that, for spelling purposes, "water" should be pronounced "wata," because to my American ears, the way British people say those two words seems basically the same.


As a native RP speaker, a ferry-furry merger is only present in some regional varieties this side of the pond and is decidedly non-standard; the two words have the vowels /ɛ/ and /ɜː/ respectively. Also, from an RP-POV, spelling water with an a is non-sensical because the initial vowel /ɔː/ is prototypically represented be <or> and is certainly perceived as having more affinity with other "o" vowels than "a" ones. The final vowel is also just a schwa and an "a" would be perceived as representing either /æ/ or /ɑː/.

I think a while ago I raised the idea of an RP-based spelling reform which would have represented this as "wortr"; <r> changes the quality of the preceding vowel, is /r/ between vowels, is silent before a consonant, is a schwa otherwise and, if final, is also followed by an /r/ if the next word begins with a vowel (e.g. "doorman"=<dormrn>=/'dɔːmən/, "port"=<port>=/pɔːt/, "you're a man"=<yor r man>=/yɔː rə mæn). I can't entirely remember how I did all of the extra vowels, particularly between /ɪ/, & /iː/, and /ʊ/, /ʌ/, & /uː/.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:56 am UTC

Monika wrote:Spelling reform suggestion: no more e after v if the vowel before is short (e.g. relativ, nativ, hav, liv, giv, shov). I'm undecided for words like lov(e) and dov(e): Låv and dåv or lāv and dāv would be neat but of course that's not going to happen because keyboards.
Why is "shove" distinct from "love" and "dove"? It's the same vowel sound. (Also, as others have noted, native English speakers are unlikely to recognise å or ā.)

Monika wrote:Genuine should be either genueen or genuin. Seriously you are just doing this to confuse us foreigners admit it.
I don't know of any dialect that has "een" in "genuine".
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:55 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:Why is "shove" distinct from "love" and "dove"? It's the same vowel sound.

Interesting. Not the way I was taught, but then my teachers were not allowed to travel to English-speaking countries.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:02 pm UTC

If shove were the past form of a hypothetical strong verb form of shave it wouldn't rhyme with love and dove. The ordinary verb meaning to push roughly definitely rhymes with love and dove.

Out of interest, what vowels were you taught for shove and love/dove?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

shove: ʃɒv I think, i.e. (almost) rhyming with scoff.
Love, dove: the correct one I guess, lʌv, dʌv

Petition to spell rhyme rime, it's Germanic and not Greek after all.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:29 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
If you put together the -erry's and the -ery's pronounced the same, you get a MASS of words with ER as the crucial spelling, but if you try to use -ury rather than -urry, you get a completely different sound. So I think we'll go with -erry. But I appreciate your views. Cheers.

Bury? Injury? Luxury? These all have the same sound as "hurry" and "worry" for me.

"Bury" rhymes with "berry" for me, and is different than "injury" and "luxury", which are both -/əɹi/ for me.

The SSWD project is about NEEDED change, and preferably changes that people can readily apply to things they HEAR. One transliteration for a small range of actual sounds is convenient, and all spelling is convention. Few speakers of standard English distinguish in sound between "ferry" and "furry". Having a distinction in spelling for these two HOMONYMS is useful. As to which spelling you favor for a reform of "worry", I have noted that you favor "wurry".

If by "standard English" he means "RP," that might be true, but very few people speak that way natively. He might as well say that, for spelling purposes, "water" should be pronounced "wata," because to my American ears, the way British people say those two words seems basically the same.

As noted above, this guy isn't British. He's from Delaware or something.

As for "tord", too-waurd is a spelling pronunciation, and as with ev-er-y and other spelling pronunciations (which my Random House Unabridged labels so people know better than to use them), spelling reformers can properly advise people that tho they think they are being careful to be correct, they are actually being wrong.

Some people do pronounce the words like that.

Using a song probably isn't the best example, since pronunciations may be modified to fit the music. Especially with the insertion of deletion of syllables.

Make all the silly and PRETENTIOUS distinctions you want. Ordinary people concerned with communication rather than language as an arcane study to itself will not trouble to heed you.''

Dear God, make it stop.

No don't, I love watching people make fools of themselves!


Tangentially, Wiktionary gives the standard American pronunciation of water as /wɔɾɚ/, except where the caught-cot merger is present, where it gives /wɑɾəɹ/. To me the first sounds very British, and I can't say I ever recall hearing /wɔɾɚ/ from an American. I checked Youtube for videos about water and all of the American speakers except one sounded like they were using /wɑɾəɹ/ to me (the exception was a pretty strong Southern accent).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:32 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
If you put together the -erry's and the -ery's pronounced the same, you get a MASS of words with ER as the crucial spelling, but if you try to use -ury rather than -urry, you get a completely different sound. So I think we'll go with -erry. But I appreciate your views. Cheers.

Bury? Injury? Luxury? These all have the same sound as "hurry" and "worry" for me.

"Bury" rhymes with "berry" for me, and is different than "injury" and "luxury", which are both -/əɹi/ for me.

The SSWD project is about NEEDED change, and preferably changes that people can readily apply to things they HEAR. One transliteration for a small range of actual sounds is convenient, and all spelling is convention. Few speakers of standard English distinguish in sound between "ferry" and "furry". Having a distinction in spelling for these two HOMONYMS is useful. As to which spelling you favor for a reform of "worry", I have noted that you favor "wurry".

If by "standard English" he means "RP," that might be true, but very few people speak that way natively. He might as well say that, for spelling purposes, "water" should be pronounced "wata," because to my American ears, the way British people say those two words seems basically the same.

As noted above, this guy isn't British. He's from Delaware or something.

As for "tord", too-waurd is a spelling pronunciation, and as with ev-er-y and other spelling pronunciations (which my Random House Unabridged labels so people know better than to use them), spelling reformers can properly advise people that tho they think they are being careful to be correct, they are actually being wrong.

Some people do pronounce the words like that.

Using a song probably isn't the best example, since pronunciations may be modified to fit the music. Especially with the insertion of deletion of syllables.

Make all the silly and PRETENTIOUS distinctions you want. Ordinary people concerned with communication rather than language as an arcane study to itself will not trouble to heed you.''

Dear God, make it stop.

No don't, I love watching people make fools of themselves!


Tangentially, Wiktionary gives the standard American pronunciation of water as /wɔɾɚ/, except where the caught-cot merger is present, where it gives /wɑɾəɹ/. To me the first sounds very British, and I can't say I ever recall hearing /wɔɾɚ/ from an American. I checked Youtube for videos about water and all of the American speakers except one sounded like they were using /wɑɾəɹ/ to me (the exception was a pretty strong Southern accent).


I'm guessing that you just mean the /ɔ/ vowel. The British don't usually flap intervocalic "t's", though I've heard that some British dialects do so or used to do so.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:06 pm UTC

Derek wrote:Tangentially, Wiktionary gives the standard American pronunciation of water as /wɔɾɚ/, except where the caught-cot merger is present, where it gives /wɑɾəɹ/. To me the first sounds very British, and I can't say I ever recall hearing /wɔɾɚ/ from an American. I checked Youtube for videos about water and all of the American speakers except one sounded like they were using /wɑɾəɹ/ to me (the exception was a pretty strong Southern accent).


I don't think I really understand the difference between an r-colored vowel and a vowel followed by /ɹ/ (i.e. I'm not sure I could correctly distinguish /ɚ/ from /əɹ/, but I don't understand why the pronunciation of the first vowel would make that change in the second syllable. But I say either /wɔɾɚ/ or /wɔɾəɹ/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:01 am UTC

Monika wrote:
shove: ʃɒv I think, i.e. (almost) rhyming with scoff.
Love, dove: the correct one I guess, lʌv, dʌv

Petition to spell rhyme rime, it's Germanic and not Greek after all.


oh that's weird. I've never heard that pronunciation for shove and I don't associate it with any regional variety at all. That is definitely the usual pronunciation of love and dove though.

Spelling rhyme that way would be entirely sensible though and is occasionally used archaically (as in the Rime of the Ancient Mariner).

Derek wrote:
Tangentially, Wiktionary gives the standard American pronunciation of water as /wɔɾɚ/, except where the caught-cot merger is present, where it gives /wɑɾəɹ/. To me the first sounds very British, and I can't say I ever recall hearing /wɔɾɚ/ from an American. I checked Youtube for videos about water and all of the American speakers except one sounded like they were using /wɑɾəɹ/ to me (the exception was a pretty strong Southern accent).


British English never(?) has /ɾ/ for <t> and its presence is very strongly perceived as American although yeah, we do have /ɔ:/ as the vowel.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:15 am UTC

flicky1991 wrote:
Monika wrote:Genuine should be either genueen or genuin. Seriously you are just doing this to confuse us foreigners admit it.
I don't know of any dialect that has "een" in "genuine".

Yeah, the two pronunciations I am familiar with are /ˈdʒɛnjuːˌɪn/ and /ˈdʒɛnjuːˌaɪn/, which are also the two listed on Wiktionary. Phonetically, these would be something like "djenn-yoo-in" and "djenn-yoo-ine".

The "genuin" spelling would make a lot of sense, though it would not fit the second pronunciation very well. Generally, a final -ine is pronounced either /ɪn/, as in "crystalline," /i:n/, as in "amphetamine," or /aɪn/, as in "mine."


Derek wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
If you put together the -erry's and the -ery's pronounced the same, you get a MASS of words with ER as the crucial spelling, but if you try to use -ury rather than -urry, you get a completely different sound. So I think we'll go with -erry. But I appreciate your views. Cheers.

Bury? Injury? Luxury? These all have the same sound as "hurry" and "worry" for me.

"Bury" rhymes with "berry" for me, and is different than "injury" and "luxury", which are both -/əɹi/ for me.

Yeah, I say it both ways. I was just trying to give counterexamples to his claim that there were no good examples of words ending in -ury that rhyme with "furry." Apparently in his dialect, they don't, but in mine (and probably almost everyone's), they do.

Derek wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:If by "standard English" he means "RP," that might be true, but very few people speak that way natively. He might as well say that, for spelling purposes, "water" should be pronounced "wata," because to my American ears, the way British people say those two words seems basically the same.

As noted above, this guy isn't British. He's from Delaware or something.

Oh, my mistake. I'm just not familiar with that merger at all. Apparently it is a feature of the Philadelphia accent, though I don't know if that's the only place it's found.

Derek wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
As for "tord", too-waurd is a spelling pronunciation, and as with ev-er-y and other spelling pronunciations (which my Random House Unabridged labels so people know better than to use them), spelling reformers can properly advise people that tho they think they are being careful to be correct, they are actually being wrong.

Some people do pronounce the words like that.

Using a song probably isn't the best example, since pronunciations may be modified to fit the music. Especially with the insertion of deletion of syllables.

I guess not, but it occurred to me immediately when I read "ev-er-y," so I felt like I had to include it. I doubt Steve Perry pronounces the word that way normally; it was sort of just a joke. That said, I know for some people, "toward" is definitely disyllabic. Even I pronounce it that way sometimes, and I'm certainly not "being careful to be correct" when I do so, nor do I think that I am "actually being wrong."

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:49 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:The "genuin" spelling would make a lot of sense, though it would not fit the second pronunciation very well. Generally, a final -ine is pronounced either /ɪn/, as in "crystalline," /i:n/, as in "amphetamine," or /aɪn/, as in "mine."
I have /aɪn/ in "crystalline" and Wiktionary backs me up on this.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Grop » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:29 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
Monika wrote:Petition to spell rhyme rime, it's Germanic and not Greek after all.


Spelling rhyme that way would be entirely sensible though and is occasionally used archaically (as in the Rime of the Ancient Mariner).


Someone probably thought it would look more savant.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:32 am UTC

flicky1991 wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:The "genuin" spelling would make a lot of sense, though it would not fit the second pronunciation very well. Generally, a final -ine is pronounced either /ɪn/, as in "crystalline," /i:n/, as in "amphetamine," or /aɪn/, as in "mine."
I have /aɪn/ in "crystalline" and Wiktionary backs me up on this.

Hmm, it seems to depend on the source. Merriam-Webster and Dictionary.com put /-ən/ and /-ɪn/ first (respectively), but other sources have them last or not included at all. I've definitely heard both, but ɪ sounds more natural to me.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:59 pm UTC

Mega85 wrote:I'm guessing that you just mean the /ɔ/ vowel. The British don't usually flap intervocalic "t's", though I've heard that some British dialects do so or used to do so.

Aiwendil wrote:I don't think I really understand the difference between an r-colored vowel and a vowel followed by /ɹ/ (i.e. I'm not sure I could correctly distinguish /ɚ/ from /əɹ/, but I don't understand why the pronunciation of the first vowel would make that change in the second syllable. But I say either /wɔɾɚ/ or /wɔɾəɹ/.

eSOANEM wrote:British English never(?) has /ɾ/ for <t> and its presence is very strongly perceived as American although yeah, we do have /ɔ:/ as the vowel.


I'm being lazy with IPA and copy-pasting, which is why the consonants are transcribed consistently. My focus here is on the vowel, and whether /ɔ/ is common in American accents.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:14 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
Mega85 wrote:I'm guessing that you just mean the /ɔ/ vowel. The British don't usually flap intervocalic "t's", though I've heard that some British dialects do so or used to do so.

Aiwendil wrote:I don't think I really understand the difference between an r-colored vowel and a vowel followed by /ɹ/ (i.e. I'm not sure I could correctly distinguish /ɚ/ from /əɹ/, but I don't understand why the pronunciation of the first vowel would make that change in the second syllable. But I say either /wɔɾɚ/ or /wɔɾəɹ/.

eSOANEM wrote:British English never(?) has /ɾ/ for <t> and its presence is very strongly perceived as American although yeah, we do have /ɔ:/ as the vowel.


I'm being lazy with IPA and copy-pasting, which is why the consonants are transcribed consistently. My focus here is on the vowel, and whether /ɔ/ is common in American accents.


Well, I have /ɔ/, and so I assume do other Americans who don't have the cot-caught merger. I could also swear that some people who do have that merger tend to pronounce that vowel closer to /ɔ/ than to /ɑ/ (I've definitely heard people say what might be written "Oh my gawd", for example, whereas for me "god" has the "cot" vowel).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:
Monika wrote:Genuine should be either genueen or genuin. Seriously you are just doing this to confuse us foreigners admit it.
I don't know of any dialect that has "een" in "genuine".

Yeah, the two pronunciations I am familiar with are /ˈdʒɛnjuːˌɪn/ and /ˈdʒɛnjuːˌaɪn/, which are also the two listed on Wiktionary. Phonetically, these would be something like "djenn-yoo-in" and "djenn-yoo-ine".

The "genuin" spelling would make a lot of sense, though it would not fit the second pronunciation very well. Generally, a final -ine is pronounced either /ɪn/, as in "crystalline," /i:n/, as in "amphetamine," or /aɪn/, as in "mine."

Oh, so ˈdʒɛnjuːˌaɪn is a permitted pronunciation after all! That's (approximately, I didn't have the ju right) what I had figured from the spelling and was always reading it like in my head, but then I started hearing it and nobody ever said it that way.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:11 am UTC

Monika wrote:Admittedly schedule and future look prettier the way they are now but pronounciationwise they should be something like futshure and schedjule like where are these j/sh sounds in the middle even coming from?
I think the ch and j sounds come from the u. My guess would be that these used to be pronounced with something like -tyoor and -dyool (/-tjur/, /-djul/) and the y sound combined into the t or d, and the remaining vowel sound reduced. Other words where t before u is ch: nature, nurture, furniture, fortune, culture, vulture, feature, structure, statue, signature, capture, mutual... I think most words ending in -ture have a ch sound. Words with du = ju include module, pendulum.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:49 am UTC

Oh, I didn’t know that about statue, module and pendulum. Does everyone say them that way or does it vary?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:10 pm UTC

I don't know of it varying - they have "ch" and "j" sounds for me too.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:04 pm UTC

How do you pronounce "costume"? I pronounce it "cos choom". I've heard "cos toom".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:12 pm UTC

Ah, that's definitely one where I've heard both. I have "ch" and associate "t" with American accents.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:18 pm UTC

I'm American. I also have "ch" in the word "mature", but I've heard some people use a "t" sound there.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:45 pm UTC

Most of the words above don't really vary and always have the /tʃ/ (ch) or /dʒ/ (dj) sound. "Mature" has a lot of variation in its pronunciation, and people who pronounce it without the ʃ also usually use a different vowel. (I never liked that pronunciation though personally, and it's less common.) "Costume" definitely goes both ways, and I agree with flicky's analysis that /t/ is more common in the U.S.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Liri » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:26 pm UTC

You know those "where are you from?" quizzes where you go through various word pronunciations? One I did a couple years ago gave your top three matches; one of mine was the next city over (Durham, NC), while the others were in the northeast.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:57 pm UTC

Can you link such a quiz?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:40 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Most of the words above don't really vary and always have the /tʃ/ (ch) or /dʒ/ (dj) sound. "Mature" has a lot of variation in its pronunciation, and people who pronounce it without the ʃ also usually use a different vowel. (I never liked that pronunciation though personally, and it's less common.) "Costume" definitely goes both ways, and I agree with flicky's analysis that /t/ is more common in the U.S.


Strangely both dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster list "mature" with /t/ as the first pronunciation:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/mature?s=t

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mature

The "ch" pronunciation is the most common, but it's listed last.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:45 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
Oh, I didn’t know that about statue, module and pendulum. Does everyone say them that way or does it vary?


This is called yod-coalescence (although some varieties have yod-dropping here instead). Basically the Early Middle English /ɛw/ and /ew~iw/ diphthongs developed into /ju:/ during the Great Vowel Shift. The /j/ here's usually called a yod for historical reasons and in most cases was well preserved until quite recently; after an /s/, /z/, /t/, or /d/ the two tend to coalesce to /ʃ/, /ʒ/, /tʃ/, or /dʒ/. This coalescence is more common when the u: is unstressed, but it's pretty common in stressed syllables except in a few "posh" varieties. The coalescence can also occur across syllable and frequently even word boundaries (e.g. "educate" has /dʒ/ and "got you" often has /tʃ/ hence "gotcha").

There's also yod-dropping in many dialects where the yod is dropped completely instead; this occurs in more environments in US varieties than UK ones (although even in the US it doesn't usually get dropped across syllable boundaries, hence the yod-coalescence in "educate") but's very widespread even here (e.g. pronouncing "suit" as /sju:t/ makes you sound like a really posh person from the 20s or so; I'm also told that the fact I pronounce "lure" as /lju:r/ rather than /lu:r/ is ridiculous, note: /u:r/ is pronounced [ʊə], I've kept the pre-de-rhotacising notation so the origin of the yod is clearer).

Basically the /ju:/ phoneme interacts in lots of complicated ways with neighbouring phonemes, but you probably won't sound too weird if you just always assume it coalesces
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Liri » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:50 pm UTC

Monika wrote:Can you link such a quiz?

I can when I'm not drunk. I think the one I did was just NA English, which still might be useful.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:52 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:This is called yod-coalescence (although some varieties have yod-dropping here instead).


Really? What accents have yod-dropping in "statue", "module", and "pendulum"? I'm an American and tend to have more yod-dropping than yod-coalescence, but I don't think I've ever heard those three words pronounced with yod-dropping, as far as I can remember.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:36 am UTC

Thanks, eSOANEM.

German has two word endings where something similar happens, is that also called coalescence?

* The noun ending -tion (e.g. Nation, Portion, Aktion, Sensation and a bunch of other nouns from Latin that usually mean the same thing as in English or something related except for Sensation) is pronounced /-tsjo:n/ … Wiktionary says [-ˈʦi̯oːn], not sure what the difference is. They could/should really just be spelled -zion as z makes a ts sound in German, but even in the spelling reform in 1996 this wasn’t changed, I guess because it would look weird and nobody spells them wrong anyway. BTW is the English pronunciation of -tion a type of coalescence?

* The (much rarer) adjective ending -tiell is pronounced [-ˈʦi̯ɛl]. The 1996 spelling reform allows the spelling -ziell now if a related word with z exists, because there were anyway words spelled with -ziell already (e.g. potentiell/potenziell, existentiell/existenziell because Potenz and Existenz exists, only partiell, only offiziell).
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:36 am UTC

Monika wrote:Thanks, eSOANEM.

German has two word endings where something similar happens, is that also called coalescence?

* The noun ending -tion (e.g. Nation, Portion, Aktion, Sensation and a bunch of other nouns from Latin that usually mean the same thing as in English or something related except for Sensation)

The way you phrased this is confusing to me. I don't know a single German word. All of those are identically spelled as English words except "Aktion," which is spelled "Action" in English.

They could/should really just be spelled -zion as z makes a ts sound in German, but even in the spelling reform in 1996 this wasn’t changed, I guess because it would look weird and nobody spells them wrong anyway. BTW is the English pronunciation of -tion a type of coalescence?

The letter "z" does not make a similar sound in English. Instead, it is just a voiced ess (/z/). As an English speaker, I have a hard time imagining such a spelling reform. That kind of thing is meaningless to me, because language evolves naturally, no matter what some authority claims is the new "standard". Every word simply has a single unambiguous spelling (except in the occasional case where there are multiple spellings) which is entirely irrespective of pronunciation, and while pronunciations flow quickly, spellings tend to stick around.

* The (much rarer) adjective ending -tiell is pronounced [-ˈʦi̯ɛl]. The 1996 spelling reform allows the spelling -ziell now if a related word with z exists, because there were anyway words spelled with -ziell already (e.g. potentiell/potenziell, existentiell/existenziell because Potenz and Existenz exists, only partiell, only offiziell).

Do German-speakers really adjust their habits according to law? This is entirely foreign to me. I make many mistakes when I write or speak, but these mistakes are pointed out only in relation to other speakers, not according to some absolute. If a particular style guide changed its mind about the Oxford comma or double-spacing after periods or whatever, I wouldn't suddenly decide I had to edit my latest paper.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Liri » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:03 pm UTC

Noah Webster dictated how things should be spelled in English, it just happened a while ago for us. I don't think it's so unusual. It's easy to imagine that some future governing body would mandate unification of spellings across the Anglosphere.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:13 pm UTC

Liri wrote:Noah Webster dictated how things should be spelled in English, it just happened a while ago for us. I don't think it's so unusual. It's easy to imagine that some future governing body would mandate unification of spellings across the Anglosphere.

It is easy to imagine someone trying to do that. It is hard to imagine me caring. Webster didn't dictate to Americans how they ought to differentiate themselves from the British; he served as an example of someone who had compiled some notable differences between what he considered a (nonexistent) standard for American English and a (extremely especially nonexistent) standard for British English at that time. The truth is that the standard he represented for American English was almost just a subset of British English. He obviously had tremendous clout, yet if we compare his suggestions to modern usage, there isn't much agreement. These days, Webster's is just another dictionary among many that insists right up front (if you are a weird person like me that reads the front matter) that there is no unique "correct" spelling or pronunciation of any word, and that the dictionary serves only to describe the most common usages according to its analysis.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:22 pm UTC

I'm a bit late on this reply, but I think I often switch between cos-chyoom and cost-yoom. I never say cos-toom, but I think I've heard my brother say it.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:23 pm UTC

I think Monika was only talking about German spelling in that post and not suggesting English spelling reform based on German spelling.

I'm not sure if the English pronunciation of -tion is an example of yod-coalescence; it could just be the inherited French pronunciation and I'm not sure there'd be any way to distinguish between the two except looking at misspellings from before and during the great vowel shift.

Aiwendil wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:This is called yod-coalescence (although some varieties have yod-dropping here instead).


Really? What accents have yod-dropping in "statue", "module", and "pendulum"? I'm an American and tend to have more yod-dropping than yod-coalescence, but I don't think I've ever heard those three words pronounced with yod-dropping, as far as I can remember.


Oh, I didn't mean those, I meant more generally. I wasn't clear.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:48 pm UTC

Yod-coalescence occurs in "sure" and "sugar". Those words got yod-coalescence early and so all varieties of English have it in those words.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Zohar » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:56 pm UTC

We were playing a board game yesterday and there was one new character we used called the Colonel. I read their name as "Coh-loh-nell" and everyone starts explaining how you're supposed to say, basically, "kernel". Ugh, English.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:19 pm UTC

It's gotta be one of the top ten weirdest English words, certainly.


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