English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Monika » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:59 pm UTC

Daimon wrote:
Monika wrote:
ElWanderer wrote:Those have the context of someone complaining about the way you talk. It does sound odd to say something like "I talk the way I want to" out of the blue. Monika, is there a specific context in mind?

The context is:
"irregardless: linguists would say "It is non-standard". Normal people would say "It is wrong". Other normal people who like to use it would say "I talk how|like|as(?) I want"."

I'm sorry, what was that first "word"?

Irregardless. That word that linguists would call non-standard, and many normal people (non-linguists) would say is wrong / not a word, and some normal people (non-linguists) would use anyway.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby ElWanderer » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:33 am UTC

The chap who sits next to me at work uses "irregardless" all the time and it drives me mad.

Monika wrote:Other normal people who like to use it would say "I talk how|like|as(?) I want".

If you want a wording that fits a wide range of "normal people", I don't think there is one. Pretty much any version should get the message across, but will probably sound odd to some people. I guess it's just not something people say very often.

Iulus Cofield wrote:"I speak as I wish" sounds very formal to me. Like, tea party with crumpets formal.

"One speaks as one wishes to" *raises little finger whilst sipping tea*
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Derek » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:17 pm UTC

ElWanderer wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:"I speak as I wish" sounds very formal to me. Like, tea party with crumpets formal.

"One speaks as one wishes to" *raises little finger whilst sipping tea*

A dangling participle? How uncivilized. *Also sips tea with pinky raised, but an a more cultured manner*

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby ElWanderer » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:29 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
ElWanderer wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:"I speak as I wish" sounds very formal to me. Like, tea party with crumpets formal.

"One speaks as one wishes to" *raises little finger whilst sipping tea*

A dangling participle? How uncivilized. *Also sips tea with pinky raised, but an a more cultured manner*

Careful, or one will have the corgis set upon you.

But yes, I can't help but tack the "to" on the end - I tend to feel the sentence is incomplete if I stop after writing "wishes".
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:29 pm UTC

It definitely isn't though.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:16 pm UTC

ElWanderer wrote:
Derek wrote:
ElWanderer wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:"I speak as I wish" sounds very formal to me. Like, tea party with crumpets formal.

"One speaks as one wishes to" *raises little finger whilst sipping tea*

A dangling participle? How uncivilized. *Also sips tea with pinky raised, but an a more cultured manner*

Careful, or one will have the corgis set upon you.

But yes, I can't help but tack the "to" on the end - I tend to feel the sentence is incomplete if I stop after writing "wishes".


"I speak in the manner to which I am accustomed."

*sips tea with little finger in its natural position*
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Monika » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:29 pm UTC

Considering the "$verb all the $noun[s]" meme: It doesn't sound wrong to me, but shouldn't it be "$verb all of the $noun[s]"? Is one colloquial, the other formal? Both alright? One better for uncountable and the other for countable nouns?
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:40 pm UTC

I think both are fine for both countable and uncountable nouns. "all the nouns" is more colloquial though I think.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby skullturf » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:35 am UTC

This native speaker thinks both are perfectly acceptable, and sound almost identical in terms of formality, etc.

"Kill all the mice" vs "kill all of the mice"

"Eat all the pies" vs "eat all of the pies"

They both sound perfectly natural and correct to me. Possibly the second option sounds slightly more "formal", but maybe that's merely because they're longer.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:22 am UTC

I think I always use "all of the [noun]", but "all the [noun]" doesn't hit me as too ungrammatical and I suspect this is a case of dialectal variation.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby eSOANEM » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:17 pm UTC

Having just read skullturfs examples, it seems to me that there is a slight nuance between the two.

"[verb] all the [noun(s)]" to me implies doing the action to the entirety whilst "[verb] all of the [noun(s)]" implies performing the action on each element (or subset for uncountable nouns).

Obviously both produce the same effect, but there is a slight difference (at least, in my mind).
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Rium » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:18 pm UTC

My Academic Writing teacher today said that this was (is?) the correct solution to a punctuation exercise: "My brother was always my best friend when I was a child, especially, as we two were almost alone in the world." Is the second comma correct? It feels wrong.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby poxic » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:26 pm UTC

I wouldn't think to use the second comma -- it looks kind of ugly and unnecessary -- but there might be some antiquated rule that says you should. (There are lots of antiquated rules that say to do things no one does anymore.)
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby ElWanderer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:33 pm UTC

Rium wrote:My Academic Writing teacher today said that this was (is?) the correct solution to a punctuation exercise: "My brother was always my best friend when I was a child, especially, as we two were almost alone in the world." Is the second comma correct? It feels wrong.

Yeah, it looks wrong to me too. Is the "especially" meant to refer to the "when I was a child" or to the "as we were almost alone"? Surrounded by commas, it's just sat on its own, being ambiguous. You can get two slightly different meanings, depending on where you put commas:

"My brother was always my best friend, when I was a child especially, as we two were almost alone in the world."
versus
"My brother was always my best friend when I was a child, especially as we two were almost alone in the world."
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Iulus Cofield » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:57 am UTC

Normally I'd interpret an adverb set off in commas like that as modifying the whole sentence, but especially doesn't make much sense for that here either. Maybe if there was some additional context about other best friends, then it would emphasize that the brother was the bestest friend? Even then, an adverb modifying a whole sentence generally goes at the beginning or the end, not wedged in the middle.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:31 am UTC

ElWanderer wrote:
Rium wrote:My Academic Writing teacher today said that this was (is?) the correct solution to a punctuation exercise: "My brother was always my best friend when I was a child, especially, as we two were almost alone in the world." Is the second comma correct? It feels wrong.

Yeah, it looks wrong to me too. Is the "especially" meant to refer to the "when I was a child" or to the "as we were almost alone"? Surrounded by commas, it's just sat on its own, being ambiguous. You can get two slightly different meanings, depending on where you put commas:

"My brother was always my best friend, when I was a child especially, as we two were almost alone in the world."
versus
"My brother was always my best friend when I was a child, especially as we two were almost alone in the world."


I agree that the answer given by the teacher seems horrible to me and completely unclear and that there are multiple ways of punctuating this to achieve different effects; however, I would not punctuate this way either.

What I would do is:

My brother was always my best friend when I was a child, especially as we two were almost alone in the world.

or

My brother was always my best friend, when I was a child especially, as we two were almost alone in the world.

In the first, the "especially" is modifying the adverbial clause whereas in the second it is modifying a parenthetical clause.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Daimon » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:26 am UTC

Even though I'm a native speaker, sometimes I have curiosity regarding why we say things in a certain way. Sure, there are things such as idioms, and this might be one, but I'm still curious nontheless, and don't want to make a forum thread everytime I have a new question about this language. Take this sentence, for example:

"Moving to another city will help you forget him and me you."

How do we get the phrasing "me you"? Is it grammattical to omit the verb, or is it just prose?

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby jaap » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:11 am UTC

Daimon wrote:Even though I'm a native speaker, sometimes I have curiosity regarding why we say things in a certain way. Sure, there are things such as idioms, and this might be one, but I'm still curious nontheless, and don't want to make a forum thread everytime I have a new question about this language. Take this sentence, for example:

"Moving to another city will help you forget him and me you."

How do we get the phrasing "me you"? Is it grammattical to omit the verb, or is it just prose?

Perfectly grammatical. See ellipsis or more specifically gapping.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Daimon » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:52 pm UTC

jaap wrote:
Daimon wrote:Even though I'm a native speaker, sometimes I have curiosity regarding why we say things in a certain way. Sure, there are things such as idioms, and this might be one, but I'm still curious nontheless, and don't want to make a forum thread everytime I have a new question about this language. Take this sentence, for example:

"Moving to another city will help you forget him and me you."

How do we get the phrasing "me you"? Is it grammattical to omit the verb, or is it just prose?

Perfectly grammatical. See ellipsis or more specifically gapping.


But then why is it not "I you" since "me forget you" is obviously wrong. Come to think of it, I think I may have also heard versions that said "I you" at some point as well.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby jaap » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:04 pm UTC

Daimon wrote:
jaap wrote:
Daimon wrote:Even though I'm a native speaker, sometimes I have curiosity regarding why we say things in a certain way. Sure, there are things such as idioms, and this might be one, but I'm still curious nontheless, and don't want to make a forum thread everytime I have a new question about this language. Take this sentence, for example:

"Moving to another city will help you forget him and me you."

How do we get the phrasing "me you"? Is it grammattical to omit the verb, or is it just prose?

Perfectly grammatical. See ellipsis or more specifically gapping.


But then why is it not "I you" since "me forget you" is obviously wrong. Come to think of it, I think I may have also heard versions that said "I you" at some point as well.

Because the full sentence without the ellipsis would also use 'me':
"Moving to another city will help you forget him and (help) me (forget) you."
The 'you' in the first clause and the 'me' in the second clause are objects, not subjects. The subject of the sentence is "Moving to another city". Compare with
"You will forget him and I (will forget) you."

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:55 am UTC

There are other cases (without the modal) where the nominative is used more often ("he forgot me and I him" rather than "he forgot me and me him").
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:20 am UTC

Right, because it depends on subjects and objects, not whether there's a modal involved.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:05 am UTC

Yes, you're right, I was mixing up modals and verbs with verb phrases as arguments (as well as noun phrases). I was using it as an example that it wasn't always "ACC ACC" and would sometimes be "NOM ACC" instead rather than trying to claim that it was weirdness from the verb before.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:45 pm UTC

Ah, gotcha. I was confused as to whether you were adding to or countering the previous comment or what.

Now, because I'm easily amused, I'm trying to find something that would be NOM NOM or even NOM NOM NOM...

I suppose if you stick to the formal rule for comparatives, you could say something like, "Mary is older than Tom and I she," but that seems off.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:47 am UTC

Yeah, I think you'd need to go with something like that. If you use a verb phrase for the second one (with the verb omitted of course) you're always going to have one of the arguments oblique. It does definitely sound odd though (partly because that formal rule is silly and most people don't speak like that).
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Seti » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:47 pm UTC

I hope it's okay to dig up this thread.

I recently registered on your board and I really enjoy being here. However, I've felt a bit insecure and just stayed in one thread until now because when I write a posting I permanently ask myself if a native English speaker would talk like that, or use a particular expression, or form his/her sentences that way and so on. Not that I'm afraid someone would laugh at me--you all seem like a nice bunch of guys and girls! And the fact that while browsing through the threads I've never seen people rudely insulting each other just confirmes my impression.

I've learned English in school and used to be quite good at it, but that was a decade ago. And while I frequently read or watch stuff in English (news articles, reviews, short stories, movies, TV shows and xkcd, obviously) and mostly don't have any problems with understanding it, I've hardly spoken or written any English during the last few years (I bet you guessed that by now). I want to change that, though.

So, if you want to help me, don't shy away from pointing out the mistakes I make. I reckon the (hopefully not countless) ones in this short text will work well as a conversation starter :wink:

Thanks in advance!

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Lazar » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:47 pm UTC

Your English seems pretty good! Some pointers:

However, I've felt a bit insecure and just stayed in one thread until now because when I write a posting post I permanently always ask myself if a native English speaker would talk like that, or use a particular expression, or form his/her sentences that way and so on.

Permanently describes a continuous state – so an object could be permanently attached to another object, or a person could be permanently angry. If you do a particular action over and over again, then you would say that you always do it, or constantly do it.

And the fact that while browsing through the threads I've never seen people rudely insulting each other just confirmes confirms my impression.

I've learned I learned English in school and used to be quite good at it, but that was a decade ago.

The distinction between the simple past ("I learned") and the perfect ("I've learned") is tricky. Basically, when you use the perfect, you're talking about a completed action and putting it in a present context. For example, you would say "I've eaten too much" if you've just finished eating and currently feel ill. But you would say "I ate too much" if you're talking about something that happened a week ago. In your sentence, the simple past is needed because you've placed the action in a past context. "I've learned English in school" would work if you were still in school, but not if you finished school several years ago.

But the same action can switch from one tense to another depending on the context. For example, you could say "I've learned English, and now I want to learn German", because the second part of the sentence places the action in a present context.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Derek » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:55 pm UTC

Lazar, you missed the most important one ;)

(news articles, reviews, short stories, movies, TV shows, and xkcd, obviously)

Don't listen to those anti-Oxfordites, always include a comma at the end of lists!

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Monika » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:30 pm UTC

Derek wrote:Don't listen to those anti-Oxfordites, always include a comma at the end of lists!

Never!

Seti, don't worry too much. Yeah so you might not sound native all the time. So what? Unless you're like a spy or something and it's a question of life and death to sound like a native speaker, what's the point? You just need to be understandable.
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby PM 2Ring » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:06 am UTC

Seti wrote:I recently registered on your board and I really enjoy being here. However, I've felt a bit insecure and just stayed in one thread until now because when I write a posting I permanently ask myself if a native English speaker would talk like that, or use a particular expression, or form his/her sentences that way and so on. Not that I'm afraid someone would laugh at me--you all seem like a nice bunch of guys and girls! And the fact that while browsing through the threads I've never seen people rudely insulting each other just confirmes my impression.


I agree with what Lazar said, but a word you might have been getting confused with when you wrote "permanently" is "persistently". IMHO, "I persistently ask myself if a native English speaker would talk like that" works rather well.

Also, "confirmes" should be "confirms".

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Dthen » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:15 am UTC

Derek wrote:Lazar, you missed the most important one ;)

(news articles, reviews, short stories, movies, TV shows, and xkcd, obviously)

Don't listen to those anti-Oxfordites, always include a comma at the end of lists!

Only when it reduces ambiguity!
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Seti » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:57 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:Your English seems pretty good!

Thanks! I'm glad that all those years of learning English in school left, at least, some mark.

PM 2Ring wrote:
Lazar wrote:Permanently describes a continuous state – so an object could be permanently attached to another object, or a person could be permanently angry. If you do a particular action over and over again, then you would say that you always do it, or constantly do it.

I agree with what Lazar said, but a word you might have been getting confused with when you wrote "permanently" is "persistently". IMHO, "I persistently ask myself if a native English speaker would talk like that" works rather well.

To be honest, I didn't confuse it with "persistently". I just falsely thought that "permanently" would apply in that case, but it's always good to know some synonyms to diversify one's writing.

Regarding the crossed out posting: I always thought "posting" to be the correct English term, but it seems like I fell for a pseudo-anglicism there.

PM 2Ring wrote:Also, "confirmes" should be "confirms".

Oops, I honestly don't know how the "e" managed to squeeze in there.

Lazar wrote:The distinction between the simple past ("I learned") and the perfect ("I've learned") is tricky. Basically, when you use the perfect, you're talking about a completed action and putting it in a present context. For example, you would say "I've eaten too much" if you've just finished eating and currently feel ill. But you would say "I ate too much" if you're talking about something that happened a week ago. In your sentence, the simple past is needed because you've placed the action in a past context. "I've learned English in school" would work if you were still in school, but not if you finished school several years ago.

You're right, at times, paying attention to the distinction of simple past and present perfect causes some problems for me, but your explanation helps a lot!

Lazar wrote:But the same action can switch from one tense to another depending on the context. For example, you could say "I've learned English, and now I want to learn German", because the second part of the sentence places the action in a present context.

Serendipitously, I don't have to learn German because it's my native language. (I don't know if "serendipitously" fits in that context, but I like the sound of that word.) To imagine having to study all those rules and their countless exceptions that define the German grammar, would certainly give me nightmares. :)

Dthen wrote:
Derek wrote:Don't listen to those anti-Oxfordites, always include a comma at the end of lists!

Only when it reduces ambiguity!

Can I think this through for a year or two before deciding which side I prefer? :wink:

Though, I'm glad that I got the remaining punctuation right, e.g. putting a comma before sentence connectors like "or", and not inserting spaces before and after two consecutive hyphens.

Monika wrote:Seti, don't worry too much. Yeah so you might not sound native all the time. So what? Unless you're like a spy or something and it's a question of life and death to sound like a native speaker, what's the point? You just need to be understandable.

Hello, fellow countrywoman! I guess you are right. But I just wanted to get some feedback on how well I do at English by now.

Also... It's not that I want to be a spy, but if I happen to become one (that seems to happen quite often if Hollywood movies don't lie :wink:), I want to avoid the followoing conversation:

Interrogator: Admit it, you are a spy!
Me: No, I amn't. *twitch*
:P

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby speising » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:45 pm UTC

If you want to become a spy, don't forget how those English types count with their fingers! That can be a life saver one day.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Grop » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:37 pm UTC

Yes, rumor says the Brits in particular don't like when you order two pints using your index and middle finger, while the back of your hand is turned at them.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Monika » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:47 pm UTC

Seti wrote:I always thought "posting" to be the correct English term, but it seems like I fell for a pseudo-anglicism there.

Yep, it's a trap.

speising wrote:If you want to become a spy, don't forget how those English types count with their fingers! That can be a life saver one day.

How do they count? Is there a video?
Grop wrote:Yes, rumor says the Brits in particular don't like when you order two pints using your index and middle finger, while the back of your hand is turned at them.

For reals? Why?
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speising
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby speising » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:55 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
speising wrote:If you want to become a spy, don't forget how those English types count with their fingers! That can be a life saver one day.

How do they count? Is there a video?

http://youtu.be/BDB_yCvuTlE (from about 1:40 on)

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jaap
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby jaap » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:59 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
speising wrote:If you want to become a spy, don't forget how those English types count with their fingers! That can be a life saver one day.

How do they count? Is there a video?
Grop wrote:Yes, rumor says the Brits in particular don't like when you order two pints using your index and middle finger, while the back of your hand is turned at them.

For reals? Why?


That kind of v-sign is the English equivalent of sticking up just the middle finger in many other countries.

Also, I think they are kind of riffing on the bar scene in the film Inglourious Basterds in which an Englishman pretending to be German gets caught out.

ETA: Ninja'd.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Grop » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:13 pm UTC

BTW, this 3 sign story in Inglorious Basterds is very hard to believe, in my view.

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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Derek » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:01 am UTC

Seti wrote:Regarding the crossed out posting: I always thought "posting" to be the correct English term, but it seems like I fell for a pseudo-anglicism there.

Incidentally, had "post" been a verb first, then the noun form probably would have been "posting", since the gerund is the standard way to get nouns from verbs. But since the noun "post" came first, the verb form is also "post" (by zero devivation).

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Monika
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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Postby Monika » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:55 pm UTC

Grop wrote:BTW, this 3 sign story in Inglorious Basterds is very hard to believe, in my view.

I dunno, it's quite possible. When we were taught how to count in German Sign Language our teacher first made us count the way on our fingers as we would intuitively, and we all did it the same way (which is wrong in German Sign Language) except for one student who was the child of a deaf parent (who counted as it is correct in German Sign Language). So yes, how one counts with one's fingers is tied to one's mother language.
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