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Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:32 pm UTC
by Aiwendil
The "-wise" suffix does sound a little corporate-speakish to me, but not annoyingly so.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:04 pm UTC
by Monika
That's fine, I was going to use it in a work e-mail and suddenly I thought: Wait, is this even correct English? Does it mean what I think it means?

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:05 am UTC
by Monika
Are blackbird and Blackbeard pronounced the same?

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:10 pm UTC
by HES
Not for me, no.

I discovered last week talking to a Spanish friend that bird/bear/beard/beer is a common difficulty. There are a lot of pronunciation videos if you google those four words. (We decided that hand actions were more fun, though)

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:58 pm UTC
by svenman
I could use a bit of help from people who are more familiar with varying styles of English than I am. A bit of background for context: I am technically a native speaker of English (together with German) but have been living practically all of my life in Germany, growing up in a bilingual family. Usually I am pretty confident in my English language skills, but I just don't get the same amount of exposure to the English language, especially in its less formal style registers, as I would living in an English-speaking country. Currently I am working on a filk, i.e. a new set of lyrics to an existing song in English (any fellow OTTers who read this, please follow the first commandment, it won't be for long) and am having trouble to decide between two versions of a particular line.

Don't open the following spoiler if you are an OTTer and prefer to go without hints at an upcoming song ottification. No kitties inside.
Spoiler:
Even within the spoiler I don't want to give too much of the content away, so I'll have to paraphrase a bit. The lyrics are "sung" from the viewpoint of a figure in a particular story and logically directed at an implied listener who is also present in the same location. The "singer" has seen what looks like a set of symbols in a particular spot, he is unfamiliar with them but guesses that they have a meaning, possibily as some kind of writing. He asks the "listener" if they recognize the supposed symbols and can interpret them in any way:
[Hey, there are these weird shapes.]
Can you read them, and if you do
[please tell me about their meaning.]

The line in italics is the one I'm unsure about. It needs to rhyme with "you". With proper English grammar, it should be rephrased as "Can you read them, and if you can" for the intended meaning but then the rhyme wouldn't work. Does the sentence make sense and seem natural anyway? Whether the "if you do" bit gets parsed as "if you can read them" or as "if you read them" doesn't matter, both would be fine.

As a fallback option, I came up with the alternative
Can you read them, and if that's true

which has less questionable grammar but IMO doesn't "flow" as well. If I can get some assurance that my first version makes for an at least somewhat reasonable sentence in however informal English, I'd prefer to use that one.

Thank you for any assistance!

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:40 pm UTC
by poxic
I didn't even notice the bad grammar in the first example so I'd go with that. Less awkward than the alternative.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:11 am UTC
by Eebster the Great
The word "and" seems wrong. "Can you read them? Well, if you do" might work. As it is now, you are not only mixing can and do (which you say gives it the strictly wrong meaning, which is not great), you also are mixing a question and a request.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:59 pm UTC
by svenman
Thank you both. I've had some further ideas in the meantime, and currently I'm favouring the line
Spoiler:
Can you read and explain them, too?
in place of the questionable one. (The following line then begins a new sentence which, thanks to a resulting slight shift in meaning, makes the inner logic of the lyrics still work out just as well - in case anyone wonders because that wouldn't entirely be the case for my paraphrased version above.)

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:19 am UTC
by Eebster the Great
That does sound like an improvement.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:39 pm UTC
by svenman
Here is the finished product. Thanks again for all assistance.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:40 pm UTC
by Monika
Hello anglophones,

Would you say thought and broad rhyme and if no then only because of the t/d ending or also because of the vowel?

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:49 pm UTC
by flicky1991
No, because of the t/d. If you replaced the "d" in "broad" with a "t" then, for me, it would be a homophone of "brought" and thus rhyme with "thought".

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:01 pm UTC
by Quizatzhaderac
No, I'd say the words have nothing in common pronunciation-wise. I would pronounce "thought" to rhyme exactly with "thought" and for "broad" I would put the vowel about 2/3rds of the way from "Brought" to "Brad".

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:55 pm UTC
by freezeblade
Yeah, those two words have almost nothing in common (in my west coast accent).

"thought" rhymes with "rot" or "pot"

"broad" rhymes with "odd" or "god"

It's hard to describe the difference between the vowels, but to my ear the vowel sound for "thought" is a more open sound, and for "broad" is a tad lower in the mouth.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:16 pm UTC
by flicky1991
In terms of the vowels:
rot = pot = odd = god
thought = broad

The two groups don't sound alike to me.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:57 am UTC
by Derek
freezeblade wrote:Yeah, those two words have almost nothing in common (in my west coast accent).

"thought" rhymes with "rot" or "pot"

"broad" rhymes with "odd" or "god"

It's hard to describe the difference between the vowels, but to my ear the vowel sound for "thought" is a more open sound, and for "broad" is a tad lower in the mouth.

That means you don't have the cot-caught merger, which is unusual if you're from the west coast.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:41 pm UTC
by chridd
rot = pot = odd = god = thought = broad for me

and the t and d are different sounds. (The d also makes the vowel a bit longer, but I wouldn't consider that a different sound; that's true regardless of what vowel it is.)

...so the real answer is, it depends on the dialect

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:52 pm UTC
by Eebster the Great
I distinguish "thought" and sometimes "broad" and then lump the others together (rot = pot = odd = god, vowel-wise). "Broad" can be pronounced like "odd" or like "thought," or something in-between, depending on when you ask.

Re: English as She Is Spoke [English practice]

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:45 am UTC
by gmalivuk
Derek wrote:
freezeblade wrote:Yeah, those two words have almost nothing in common (in my west coast accent).

"thought" rhymes with "rot" or "pot"

"broad" rhymes with "odd" or "god"

It's hard to describe the difference between the vowels, but to my ear the vowel sound for "thought" is a more open sound, and for "broad" is a tad lower in the mouth.

That means you don't have the cot-caught merger, which is unusual if you're from the west coast.

But not in the typical way.

I also don't have the merger, so the vowel in thought = broad = caught, and the vowel in rot = pot = odd = god = cot.