Laser Logic

A forum for good logic/math puzzles.

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caromalinia
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Laser Logic

Postby caromalinia » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:17 am UTC

I was inspired by the Building Houses thread (http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4132) to post Laser Logic (I searched and it has inexplicably never been posted, here, at least under its proper name):

http://www.gamingdelight.com/games/laserlogic.php

The premise here is that you are given a grid containing lasers with fixed origin and direction and targets, and you must use the mirrors and prisms provided to direct the light toward the target*. It is the kind of thing I used to be forever drawing in my notebooks as a kid. The first levels are easy, but more complex board elements and puzzle configurations are added fairly quickly. Do not forget that with colour combinations you are dealing with light, so the primary colours are red/green/blue and they combine to form yellow (red & green), cyan (green & blue), magenta (red & blue), and white (all three together).

I solved all of these at one point, so I can attest that they are all solvable, and I think there are about 25 or 30. I didn't do screenshots of all my solutions, so I guess I'll have to re-solve some of them unless others get there first.

I confess I am partially posting this because I finished the whole game and still wanted more, or an interactive version where a person could create her own levels. It seems like there is so much potential in the concept, but I'd have not the foggiest idea how to code even the most basic version of it. I've been on my wife to do it, but she hasn't gotten around to it. (And I suppose one would want to find a way to contact the creator and ask permission??)

Anyway, I love the way people are creating new puzzles for Building Houses, and I can't help but hope something similar might happen with Laser Logic, once you, like me, have exhausted what's there and are looking for more.

EDIT: In my experience, puzzles 12, 16, and 24 were not completely solvable, but it let me go on to the next level once I had an adequate partial solution. I assume this is because of someone's mistake in creating them? I can't read the language used in the text parts of the game (is it Chinese?), so I can't be sure, but if you are struggling with one of those levels, check whether the "NEXT" button has appeared--maybe you have already done enough. (Also, if you solve one of them completely, let me know).

* not unlike the awesome board game Deflexion/Khet (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/16991 and http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/25572)
Last edited by caromalinia on Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Durandal
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Durandal » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:51 am UTC

.
Last edited by Durandal on Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:53 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Firnagzen » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:27 pm UTC

Hm, I remember that one of the p2p runescape quests involves something like this... only it's 3d. (up and down too)

Beyond that, I haven't come across anything similar, and in any case, damn you. I'm not going to get much done until I've finished this. NERD SNIPER ALERT
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby rrwoods » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:09 pm UTC

caromalinia wrote:I've been on my wife

ORLY

Sorry, couldn't resist. :-P

On topic: Can't hit this 'cause I'm at work right now, but if this is anything similar to what I think it is, then this is possibly the most addicting game ever. I must have spent upwards of 50 hours playing this thing my last year in college.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Moonbeam » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:29 pm UTC

rrwoods wrote:this is possibly the most addicting game ever.


I think I'm in agreement with ya :shock: .

Stuck on level 9 at the mo - I will not give in :oops: .

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby caromalinia » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:25 pm UTC

rrwoods wrote:
caromalinia wrote:I've been on my wife

ORLY

Sorry, couldn't resist. :-P

On topic: Can't hit this 'cause I'm at work right now, but if this is anything similar to what I think it is, then this is possibly the most addicting game ever. I must have spent upwards of 50 hours playing this thing my last year in college.


I should have known better than to use that turn of phrase on the internets....

If this is not the one you think it is, please forward the other one, since I am now an addict without a fix after solving all 25 puzzles again.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Token » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:57 pm UTC

It's okay, but it's no Aargon Deluxe. Man, that was a game.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Cosmologicon » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:53 pm UTC

caromalinia wrote:EDIT: In my experience, puzzles 12, 16, and 24 were not completely solvable, but it let me go on to the next level once I had an adequate partial solution. I assume this is because of someone's mistake in creating them? I can't read the language used in the text parts of the game (is it Chinese?), so I can't be sure, but if you are struggling with one of those levels, check whether the "NEXT" button has appeared--maybe you have already done enough. (Also, if you solve one of them completely, let me know).

I don't know how it decides to let you on to the next level, but it does it a lot before you're finished. Maybe it's just to let you skip ones that you're frustrated with. A good way to tell that you've actually solved it is to go on to the next one, then go back with the PREV button. If you didn't solve it, it's back in its original configuration.

Anyway, I got 12 and 24, so I can guarantee those are solvable, but I haven't gotten 16 or 22 yet. I hate those prisms. It's just so much trial-and-error for me.

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Cauchy » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:04 pm UTC

I've gotten all of them except for 22.
Every several you solve earns you a "freebie" of sorts; I don't know the exact number, but after solving n_1 of them, the two lowest-numbered puzzles you haven't solved will be open instead of the one lowest-numbered, and after solving n_2, the three lowest-numbered puzzles will be open.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby caromalinia » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:44 pm UTC

Cosmologicon wrote:
caromalinia wrote:EDIT: In my experience, puzzles 12, 16, and 24 were not completely solvable, but it let me go on to the next level once I had an adequate partial solution. I assume this is because of someone's mistake in creating them? I can't read the language used in the text parts of the game (is it Chinese?), so I can't be sure, but if you are struggling with one of those levels, check whether the "NEXT" button has appeared--maybe you have already done enough. (Also, if you solve one of them completely, let me know).

I don't know how it decides to let you on to the next level, but it does it a lot before you're finished. Maybe it's just to let you skip ones that you're frustrated with. A good way to tell that you've actually solved it is to go on to the next one, then go back with the PREV button. If you didn't solve it, it's back in its original configuration.

Anyway, I got 12 and 24, so I can guarantee those are solvable, but I haven't gotten 16 or 22 yet. I hate those prisms. It's just so much trial-and-error for me.


I got 12 and 24 pretty fast once your assurances of solvability helped me to overcome my psychological block. It's amazing how knowing something *can* be solved is often such a help in solving it...

I still don't have sixteen, though I am so close I can taste it. AAARGH.

And as to prisms, take a moment to study them a little bit--the pattern is not so hard to get the hang of and then it won't be trial and error, which really helps.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Cosmologicon » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:52 pm UTC

Yeah, I got 22 without too much difficulty. I still don't totally know the pattern, but I got it well enough to know how it had to be done. Anyways, I got them all now. The message that showed up on the right when I got 16 was kind of funny. I don't know if it comes when you get 16 or you get them all.
Spoiler:
I fu le you!!!
What does that even mean? Haha.

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby bittyx » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:26 am UTC

http://silverspaceship.com/chromatron/

This is the original game; the flash version is a ripoff (graphics and levels). On that site, you can also find a forum, with solutions to each and every level (although, there's really no point in playing if you're gonna cheat; luckily, you can also find hints, though I haven't read them, so they might be crappy). There are 4 series of the game here, and many, many levels. Guaranteed to keep you up all night. For a few weeks.

As for myself - I have played way too many laser games and I know exactly how much time I am prepared to lose for the mere satisfaction of putting a virtual mirror in the right place, at the right angle. That's why I'm not even gonna try this one anymore. I got to level 17, with a little bit of difficulty on 10 and 12 (and while 10 was hard for me because of a momentary lack of brain, I got 12 accidentaly; lucky me!). 16 wasn't really that hard, but that might just be experience with this sort of game. I'm not gonna play anymore, since I've got studying to do, and this is too distracting.

Here's a hint for level 16, for caromalinia:
Spoiler:
The mirror that shifts a ray by 45 degrees can shift two rays at the same time; one one the inside, and one on the outside. Try it, you'll see what I mean.

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby caromalinia » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:52 am UTC

bittyx wrote:http://silverspaceship.com/chromatron/

This is the original game; the flash version is a ripoff (graphics and levels). On that site, you can also find a forum, with solutions to each and every level (although, there's really no point in playing if you're gonna cheat; luckily, you can also find hints, though I haven't read them, so they might be crappy). There are 4 series of the game here, and many, many levels. Guaranteed to keep you up all night. For a few weeks.

As for myself - I have played way too many laser games and I know exactly how much time I am prepared to lose for the mere satisfaction of putting a virtual mirror in the right place, at the right angle. That's why I'm not even gonna try this one anymore. I got to level 17, with a little bit of difficulty on 10 and 12 (and while 10 was hard for me because of a momentary lack of brain, I got 12 accidentaly; lucky me!). 16 wasn't really that hard, but that might just be experience with this sort of game. I'm not gonna play anymore, since I've got studying to do, and this is too distracting.

Here's a hint for level 16, for caromalinia:
Spoiler:
The mirror that shifts a ray by 45 degrees can shift two rays at the same time; one one the inside, and one on the outside. Try it, you'll see what I mean.


Whoa! Now *that* you could spend 50 hours on. I was wondering what rrwoods was talking about...

Thanks for the totally intriguing, if time-wasting, link!

As to your hint, I've already done that; I think I am just missing something obvious about alternate mirror placement, because I keep needing one more mirror than I have--I'm sure I've failed to optimize something somewhere. I guess I'll have to tinker with it. Here's what I've got so far:

Spoiler:
Image


I'll have to wait, though--I'm going back and looking at it every couple of hours, but I'm supposed to be applying to grad school right now, so I should really not take much time on it until that's done. Ha! Good luck, me.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby bittyx » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:41 am UTC

It's really hard to hint without spelling it out, but I'll give it a shot anyway... At least I won't post a picture :mrgreen:

But read my general opinion on getting hints from people who are not good at giving hints first:

There is a mobile game called "Absolute Puzzle Deluxe", which features, among 2 other games, this one, but with different levels. I was stuck on the last level for a week. And this was high school, so I had time to waste every day playing the game. In the end I solved it, and it felt real good; as I recall, it even turned out that you don't need to use every available piece! But, in retrospect, if someone had told me what to do, it would have ruined the game for me. So think about that before reading the spoiler :)

LEVEL 16 SPOILERS

Spoiler:
Since the blue/red lasers are symetric, go with the blue one, and leave it like it is; it cannot be optimized more than that.


Spoiler:
As for the white one, finish it before you do red/green. It's the only way to do it. Now, think about other ways you can guide the red/green lasers.


Spoiler:
Note that the obvious path for the red laser is not the one you should take.


The next one is a real give away:
Spoiler:
You should position one of the 45 degree mirrors so that the read beam reaches from W, and continues SE, while the green beam arrives from S, and makes a turn to SW.


Hope this helps!
Last edited by bittyx on Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:27 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby caromalinia » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:00 am UTC

Got it, and with only your first spoiler--
Spoiler:
sometimes an affirmation not to mess with what you've got is more helpful than suggestions on what to change.


Afterwards, I looked at your second spoiler.
Spoiler:
I don't know why that would matter one way or another. I left it as I had it and was fine. Maybe you have a different solution?


I'm glad I didn't look at the superspoiler or anything--you're right that it is remarkably unsatisfying to be told the solution. But it is also damn nice not to have this nagging at me while I chug along at my (oh-em-gee so boring) grad application essay.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby bittyx » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:26 am UTC

Yeah, actually, now that I think about it, the second spoiler is wrong; it doesn't matter, but I'm gonna go back and edit it, now :)
Spoiler:
I thought that one of the mirrors for the white laser would block out the green lsaer from the upper-right side, but that's obviously not true :)


I'm glad you got it with just the first spoiler. I take it it's more satisfying that way :) Congrats on finishing the game!

Oh, and good luck with your application!

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby caromalinia » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:43 am UTC

bittyx wrote:
Oh, and good luck with your application!



Thanks for the well-wishes! Application finished and submitted on time!!

Positive proof that laser games are not *necessarily* addictive enough to ruin your life. And now that I am done, I can go look at that other link you sent....




PS to everyone. If anyone knows how to and is interested, I would still, umm, send cookies to someone who could code something that would allow me to make my own levels of lasergame and share with friends. Wouldn't that be fun?
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Moonbeam » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:09 pm UTC

Stuck on level 12 :oops: :| .

EDIT: I didn't manage to complete this level, but it let me past.
I've given up on this level but I'd still like to see the solution. Anyone got any tips please ??

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby caromalinia » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:28 pm UTC

Moonbeam wrote:Stuck on level 12 :oops: :| .

EDIT: I didn't manage to complete this level, but it let me past.
I've given up on this level but I'd still like to see the solution. Anyone got any tips please ??



Tips for level 12 (I'll follow bittyx's lead and post some in sequential spoilers, and I'll follow kindgdomofloathing's lead and post them as haiku, for extra crypticness)

HAIKU 1
Spoiler:
Are there any pairs
sharing a row or column?
Attend to them, please


HAIKU 2
Spoiler:
A purple Y axis
Red pos and blue neg for X
Can you make it so?


HAIKU 3
Spoiler:
Can you make this one?
A purple ell extends out
One way red, one blue.


HAIKU 4
Spoiler:
Imagine someday...
The red states and blue states joined
By one purple strand.


HAIKU 5
Spoiler:
If it still eludes
I'll enable a cheater
PM me for screenshots
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Moonbeam » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:08 pm UTC

I think I'm on the right lines 'cos I've already sorted number 4

Spoiler:
I have 1 continuous purple line running horizontally from the red laser, then straight up and continuing horizontal until it reaches the blue laser


If that last mirror was a prism I'd be sorted, 'cos when I direct the beam to the last target - it cuts the path off to another target. My head hurts :oops: .

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Buttons » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:02 pm UTC

Fun stuff. #22 was my favorite.

In #24, my laser hit every star with the correct color, and then another star for a second time with the wrong color. It still let me go on to the next one, presumably because the level was "solved" before the laser hit that last star for a second time. That may be what happened on the other two levels as well.

I managed to solve #25 without using every piece, but I don't think that's possible for any other level. Counterexamples?

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Nitrodon » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:29 pm UTC

Moonbeam wrote:I think I'm on the right lines 'cos I've already sorted number 4

Spoiler:
I have 1 continuous purple line running horizontally from the red laser, then straight up and continuing horizontal until it reaches the blue laser


If that last mirror was a prism I'd be sorted, 'cos when I direct the beam to the last target - it cuts the path off to another target. My head hurts :oops: .

Spoiler:
If you're referring to the bottom target, you're supposed to use a reflective glass piece to direct the red laser there. After you do that, you should be able to see which piece can be a mirror instead.

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby studyinserendipity » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:27 pm UTC

If only I could major in awesome puzzle diversions!
In order to actually leave my house for work, I had to create pen-and-paper representations of ones I am stuck on to solve while I'm not near my computer.

Thanks for enriching my puzzling, and wrecking my normal scheduled life :)
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Moonbeam » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:58 pm UTC

Nitrodon wrote:
Spoiler:
If you're referring to the bottom target, you're supposed to use a reflective glass piece to direct the red laser there. After you do that, you should be able to see which piece can be a mirror instead.


Spoiler:
Do you mean one of the 3 prisms for the bottom target, or the only mirror ?
If it's the mirror, then I can't see how, 'cos if I put it on line with the laser (2 squares above the bottom target), it cuts the path off to the right hand target. If I put it 5 squares above the bottom target, directing a beam from the right down to the bottom target, then this blocks the path off to the left hand target


Oh my poor head :shock: .

EDIT: Good ol' "Post Legend"
I just completed it - but I think it was more of a fluke than anything :shock: .

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby jestingrabbit » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:07 pm UTC

I'm playing the chromatron bittyx linked to. Do you guys using the flash have quantum tanglers and doppler tubes? The interaction between them is... bizarre.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby mavman2k8 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:27 pm UTC

can i get some tips on number 18, 21 and 24 ?

i got all of them up to one of the targets, except 21 where i think it isn't possible to solve without a second prism which the game won't give me (i think it was there the first time i tried but bugged away when i took a sneak peak at number 19 :| ).

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Nitrodon » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:31 pm UTC

mavman2k8 wrote:can i get some tips on number 18, 21 and 24 ?

i got all of them up to one of the targets, except 21 where i think it isn't possible to solve without a second prism which the game won't give me (i think it was there the first time i tried but bugged away when i took a sneak peak at number 19 :| ).

18:
Spoiler:
The prism is in the obvious place, and the white laser must hit it from the top right. Until that point, it's just a normal 1-laser puzzle.

21:
Spoiler:
If you've beaten 22, you should know enough about prisms to beat this one. Both white lasers should hit the prism.

24:
Spoiler:
The target which is lined up with the laser in the initial configuration is not the first target it will hit.

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby freddyfish » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:51 pm UTC

can some1 give me a hint for level 9?
the diagonal things in the level keep screwing me up...

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Moonbeam » Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:08 pm UTC

freddyfish wrote:can some1 give me a hint for level 9?
the diagonal things in the level keep screwing me up...

Spoiler:
The target nearest to the source of the laser, is not necessarily the first to be lit :wink: .


I hope this makes sense :| .



Stuck on level 17 at the mo :oops: .

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Moonbeam » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:58 pm UTC

Cosmologicon wrote:
Spoiler:
I fu le you!!!
What does that even mean? Haha.


I now understand what your spoiler means (I don't understand what it means, but I understand where you got it from, if you catch my drift :wink: .)

Just for the record, all of the 25 levels are solveable :twisted: .

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby mavman2k8 » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:03 am UTC

i fu le you !!!

thanks for the tips ... they were of no help at all :)

phew ... at least i can go to sleep now, damnit, i was actually trying to prepare for an exam today :|

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:14 am UTC

help on 17 please? i can't seem to exclude the red/green from hitting one of the targets on their respective spreads.

EDIT: EUREKA!

EDIT: Help... 18...
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby EricH » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:26 am UTC

Hints on 18:
Spoiler:
Work backward--there's only one way to hit the colored targets.
Spoiler:
Hit all the white targets before the colored ones.
Spoiler:
Put as much space as possible between the prism and the mirror that reflects light into it.
Spoiler:
The first target is the free one, the second is closest to the laser.
Spoiler:
The angled mirror is fourth on the path.


The only one that's still giving me trouble is 22...
Spoiler:
I don't think there's any piece that could possibly go in the middle, to send out four white lasers in different directions, therefore it must require that the prism is used to combine all four into a white laser somewhere outside, then beam splitters could make that into four, which then have to be directed into the apertures...but there aren't nearly enough mirrors to do all that. Nor enough space. So I must be going about this the wrong way....
Last edited by EricH on Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:55 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:15 am UTC

21?
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Firnagzen » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:10 am UTC

'I (wo) fu le you(ni)' means, in translation, that 'I respect you'. Yes, I'm chinese.

Anyway, still sniped...
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby Nitrodon » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:21 pm UTC

For puzzle 21:
Hint 1:
Spoiler:
You have two white lasers and only one prism.
Hint 2:
Spoiler:
Both white lasers hit the long side of the prism in directions 135 degrees apart.

I'm stuck on 32, 39, 49, and 50.

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Re: Laser Logic

Postby EricH » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:57 pm UTC

There are more than 25? That's as far as I can go, evidently, until I figure out 22. Which appears to be impossible.
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Re: Laser Logic

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:03 pm UTC

EricH wrote:There are more than 25? That's as far as I can go, evidently, until I figure out 22. Which appears to be impossible.


Plenty of levels for chromatron, linked by bittyx.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

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Moonbeam
Posts: 292
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Location: UK

Re: Laser Logic

Postby Moonbeam » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:23 pm UTC

EricH wrote:There are more than 25? That's as far as I can go, evidently, until I figure out 22. Which appears to be impossible.


For level 22:

Hint1:
Spoiler:
It is impossible to hit all 4 white targets with only 1 white laser beam, as 2 of the 4 targets are in "dead ends", where the white laser can go no further.


Hint2 (continuation of hint1):
Spoiler:
.... therefore, you need to make the red, green and blue lasers hit the prism twice each, making 2 white beams.


Hint3:
Spoiler:
One of the 3 initial beams does not continue along its original path towards one of the white targets - it is split into 2 (like the other 2 beams), but neither of these 2 travel down the original route (I hope this makes sense :oops: ).


Hint4 (continuation of hint3 - only look here if you're desperate, as this is a BIG hint):
Spoiler:
.... the coloured beam in question in hint3 is the blue one. The 2 blue beams that are made from the original blue beam do not travel along the path taken by the original solitary blue beam.

Buttons
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Location: Somerville

Re: Laser Logic

Postby Buttons » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:00 pm UTC

Moonbeam wrote:For level 22:

Huh. That doesn't sound like my solution at all.


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