Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

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Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby zenten » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:00 am UTC

Ok, lets suppose you have a lot of money to blow. You are only however buying parts meant for end users, not companies/servers and all that. How much hard drive space could you fit into your desktop's case with current off the shelf parts?

We're assuming you're building a new computer from scratch, but it has to be able to do all the things desktop computers normally do.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:07 am UTC

1TB drives and it really matters on what case you have. I made a data server for a kid (I got the sick feeling that it was just for porn which made me quite wigged out) with a bunch of controller cards (6x 2 channel with 4 drive on each) and we managed to squeeze 24 drives into the case. I forget who makes em, C something. Anyway, Obviously 24 drives takes a little bigger case than the "standard" ATX. Course, I would argue there is no standard ATX anyway beyond where the screw wholes go and the dimensions of the slots/backplane. None of which tells you how much room it has for drives.

And that was done on the cheap with no raid (he did software raid. Windows server) and 24x 80GB drives (hey, that was the sweet spot back then).

Oh man, you just gave me nightmares again remembering wiring the thing.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby EvanED » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:14 am UTC

If you were to go all out, my P180 case could fit (IIRC) 4+2+1+4 = 11 drives. Using all of that would be using all of the external expansion bays, so no optical drives. It may also preclude inserting particularly long expansion cards.

It would be able to fit more, but the drives would all be nicely spaced apart. If they were as close as the drives were in my previous case, you could get 2 or 3 more into the actual HDD cages. If you could do something to increase the density at the expansion bays, you would get even more.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby enk » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:38 am UTC

mosc wrote:we managed to squeeze 24 drives into the case.


How did you keep those cool?
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Toeofdoom » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:01 am UTC

Well, I would probably just get a case such as the P182, fill that up, add more controller cards, take off the side and stack racks of drives next to it until theres nothing to plug them into. Then stick some fans on too. This kind of thing would probably need a couple of hefty power supplies, and use one of those mobos with 4 gigabit ethernet ports that I saw.

Also, they would mostly be 1TB drives, but if I found a way to rack them efficiently I might go for a tonne of 300GB laptop hard drives.

Anyway, just for laughs, I would stick this in a single massive RAID 0 array. Or 2 if I went with the laptop drives.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby zenten » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:56 am UTC

OK, and the second part of my question, how many times over could I store the entire run of the Simpsons (compressed at a reasonably quality) with such a setup?

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby enk » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:30 am UTC

Lol... if this is some bet, I guess you should agreen on details first, e.g. can you have drives outside the case like Toeofdoom suggests. And what is "reasonable" compression quality?
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Toeofdoom » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:02 am UTC

Well, taking a (possibly conservative) estimate of 24 drives, at 1TB each, you evidently have 24 TB, and if all you're doing is storing one thing over and over you dont need a raid setup. Wikipedia says it's got 411 episodes. Stargate episodes are around twice as long, and good quality for them appears to be around 350MB/episode, but a high DVD quality would take about 1GB/episode.

At very high quality, you could store it 58 times. At very high streamable quality, around 200 times. At 56k modem streaming speed, (not at all reasonable, but you would get the jokes, mostly) you would get around 6000 copies.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby zenten » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:09 am UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:Well, taking a (possibly conservative) estimate of 24 drives, at 1TB each, you evidently have 24 TB, and if all you're doing is storing one thing over and over you dont need a raid setup. Wikipedia says it's got 411 episodes. Stargate episodes are around twice as long, and good quality for them appears to be around 350MB/episode, but a high DVD quality would take about 1GB/episode.

At very high quality, you could store it 58 times. At very high streamable quality, around 200 times. At 56k modem streaming speed, (not at all reasonable, but you would get the jokes, mostly) you would get around 6000 copies.


Sweet.

That means that we are now at the point where if I had the money to spend on it, I could have every single episode of every single television show I like on one server.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Toeofdoom » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:43 am UTC

And if you had an internet connection(s) fast enough to actually ever download it. Of course, if you had the money, you could buy all the DVDs (or blu-ray/hddvds), get a number of good, fast optical drives, and rip it all. This would get you better and more consistent quality and such than what you would find on the internet. RAID arrays would be reccomended also, probably a number of type 5 or 6 arrays.

Anyway. Call me when we can store my entire life, uncompressed at 1080p in 48bit colour, from multiple angles.

Just take a random guess at the data rates before looking... it'll be fun...
Spoiler:
*Using decimal values of megabytes and such due to that being how they count hard drive space*
The formula for calculating this data rate is

48/8*1920*1080, 12,441,600 bytes or 12.4 MB per frame
times 60, 746,496,000 bytes or 746.5 MB per second
times 60, 44,789,760,000 bytes or 44.8 GB per minute
times 60, 2,687,385,600,000 bytes or 2.7 TB per hour
times 24, 64,497,254,400,000 bytes or 64.5 TB per day.

Other interesting values are:
451.5 TB per week
1.8-2.0 PB per month (P = peta, 10^15)
23.54-23.60 PB per year

Currently it would take approximately 430 PB for a single angle.

I'm trying to find statistics on the size of the internet...

Well, apparently microsofts servers total to 14 petabytes.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:20 pm UTC

Do you need your life in 60 fps? Movies are only 24, which would save you over half the space.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby enk » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:47 pm UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:Anyway. Call me when we can store my entire life, uncompressed at 1080p in 48bit colour, from multiple angles.


You better not be ugly.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby zenten » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:18 pm UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:And if you had an internet connection(s) fast enough to actually ever download it.


It would only take me a few months I think.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:41 pm UTC

The case I used was made by Chenbro I think and looked a lot like this one:

http://www.directron.com/spartan1to15bg.html

except it had a cage internally you could load up with 3.5" drives as well (across from the motherboard. Remember it's double wide).

And keeping 24 hard drives cool is not the hardest thing. Each puts out about 3 watts so really, your average high end video card does that itself. Also, spinning up all 24 at the same time for full tilt is unlikely.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby FACM » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:59 pm UTC

I have a fileserver built on the cheap. 5 500GB drives for storage, and 1 80gb for the OS and temporary storage. It cost under $1000 for a computer with 2.2TB of formatted space. 1 TB drives were pretty expensive at the time, but 500GB drives were (and still are) cheaper.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Larson » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:08 pm UTC

FACM wrote:I have a fileserver built on the cheap. 5 500GB drives for storage, and 1 80gb for the OS and temporary storage. It cost under $1000 for a computer with 2.2TB of formatted space. 1 TB drives were pretty expensive at the time, but 500GB drives were (and still are) cheaper.

Quoted for truth. Hard drive storage is fantastically cheap these days. 8)

With a case like the Lian-Li PC343B, you've got 18x 5.25" bays. Add some 5.25" -> 3.5" converters like this one and you have 30 (18/3 = 6x5 = 30) hard drive bays in one machine. There are a few other things you would need to run the system stably and efficiently though. Overall, that would be quiet the box.

Nice 30TB refrigerator.

EvanED wrote:I would not consider that case "meant for end users, not companies/servers." ;-)

Haha you're right. It's easy to get carried away.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby wst » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:14 pm UTC

Larson wrote:
FACM wrote:I have a fileserver built on the cheap. 5 500GB drives for storage, and 1 80gb for the OS and temporary storage. It cost under $1000 for a computer with 2.2TB of formatted space. 1 TB drives were pretty expensive at the time, but 500GB drives were (and still are) cheaper.

Quoted for truth. Hard drive storage is fantastically cheap these days. 8)


Quoted for truth as well. My 500GB external was only £60. Which is nothing really.

With perpendicular recording and normal pre-perpendicular recording drives managing 500GB, 1.5TB drives won't be long to arrive. Stupid capacity, hehe.

On the other hand, great for a mini-media centre, where one drive will hold everything :D
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby enk » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:19 pm UTC

mosc wrote:And keeping 24 hard drives cool is not the hardest thing. Each puts out about 3 watts so really, your average high end video card does that itself. Also, spinning up all 24 at the same time for full tilt is unlikely.


Ah of course, I hadn't thought of having them spin down. I was just used to thinking they always use 8-11W each.

What disks only eat 3W?
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby EvanED » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:45 pm UTC

mosc wrote:The case I used was made by Chenbro I think and looked a lot like this one:

http://www.directron.com/spartan1to15bg.html

except it had a cage internally you could load up with 3.5" drives as well (across from the motherboard. Remember it's double wide).

And keeping 24 hard drives cool is not the hardest thing. Each puts out about 3 watts so really, your average high end video card does that itself. Also, spinning up all 24 at the same time for full tilt is unlikely.

I would not consider that case "meant for end users, not companies/servers." ;-)

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:52 pm UTC

wst wrote:
Larson wrote:
FACM wrote:I have a fileserver built on the cheap. 5 500GB drives for storage, and 1 80gb for the OS and temporary storage. It cost under $1000 for a computer with 2.2TB of formatted space. 1 TB drives were pretty expensive at the time, but 500GB drives were (and still are) cheaper.

Quoted for truth. Hard drive storage is fantastically cheap these days. 8)


Quoted for truth as well. My 500GB external was only £60. Which is nothing really.

With perpendicular recording and normal pre-perpendicular recording drives managing 500GB, 1.5TB drives won't be long to arrive. Stupid capacity, hehe.

On the other hand, great for a mini-media centre, where one drive will hold everything :D

Someone or other just released a single-platter 320GB 3.5" drive. 1.5 TB drives aren't far off at all.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby wst » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:33 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:Someone or other just released a single-platter 320GB 3.5" drive. 1.5 TB drives aren't far off at all.


Jebus O'Reilly. MY current drive is a 320GB affair, with a few platters. IDK the brand, OEM compy, but. Wow.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:18 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:I would not consider that case "meant for end users, not companies/servers." ;-)

I didn't suggest he buy it, I suggested the one I used LOOKED like that. FFS.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Toeofdoom » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:11 am UTC

Endless Mike wrote:Do you need your life in 60 fps? Movies are only 24, which would save you over half the space.


1080p is 60FPS.

And the only point of having it as my life was that it's an easy way of getting a value of how much TV I could watch in my life.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:14 pm UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:Do you need your life in 60 fps? Movies are only 24, which would save you over half the space.


1080p is 60FPS.

And the only point of having it as my life was that it's an easy way of getting a value of how much TV I could watch in my life.

Depends on the codec. ATSC is 24, 25, or 30 fps. H.264 is (capable of) 60 fps. Film is still at 24 fps.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby EvanED » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:50 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:Depends on the codec. ATSC is 24, 25, or 30 fps. H.264 is (capable of) 60 fps. Film is still at 24 fps.

I learned a couple interesting things the other day which I had wondered about. Monitors run at at least 60 Hz (and ones that slow will sometimes give me a headache), but film only goes at 24, and I don't get the eyesore/headache from it. How does that work?

One factor is apparently that the dark theater reduces the cutoff rate for which your brain will fuse images. But the other factor is that each film frame is projected twice. So really, you are seeing 48 frames per second, but every other pair of consecutive frames are exactly the same.

I don't think this has any bearing on the present discussion, I just thought it was interesting and I would share. ;-)

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby d3adf001 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:48 pm UTC

you only need 4fps for youre brain to start putting it as fluid motion

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Eschatokyrios » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:38 am UTC

Looks like the largest consumer hard drives you can get nowadays are 1TB. So, multiply that by the number of connectors in the largest SATA controller you can find and multiply that by the number of SATA controllers you can fit onto your motherboard.

I wonder what the theoretical maximum number of PCI(-E) cards that you can have in a system is, and the theoretical maximum number of connectors you can have on a given card.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby EvanED » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:16 am UTC

Eschatokyrios wrote:Looks like the largest consumer hard drives you can get nowadays are 1TB. So, multiply that by the number of connectors in the largest SATA controller you can find and multiply that by the number of SATA controllers you can fit onto your motherboard.

I wonder what the theoretical maximum number of PCI(-E) cards that you can have in a system is, and the theoretical maximum number of connectors you can have on a given card.

You also have to worry about physical space and power...

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby wing » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:59 am UTC

Triple stack of 32-bay rackmounts. 4 24pt controllers. 1TB drives. Some creative cabling (ATX PSU slaving, and creative SATA cable routing between the rackmount cases). 96TB total. Power and cooling are no concern.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby davean » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:10 am UTC

This about fits my definition of "consumer" :)

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby EvanED » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:52 am UTC

wing wrote:Triple stack of 32-bay rackmounts. 4 24pt controllers. 1TB drives. Some creative cabling (ATX PSU slaving, and creative SATA cable routing between the rackmount cases). 96TB total. Power and cooling are no concern.

Again, "You are only however buying parts meant for end users, not companies/servers and all that." I don't think that qualifies. ;-)

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Eschatokyrios » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:28 am UTC

EvanED wrote:
Eschatokyrios wrote:Looks like the largest consumer hard drives you can get nowadays are 1TB. So, multiply that by the number of connectors in the largest SATA controller you can find and multiply that by the number of SATA controllers you can fit onto your motherboard.

I wonder what the theoretical maximum number of PCI(-E) cards that you can have in a system is, and the theoretical maximum number of connectors you can have on a given card.

You also have to worry about physical space and power...


A case isn't strictly necessary, though. If you really wanted to, you could screw a bunch of hard drives to a plywood board, as long as you had long enough sata and power cables. Power would be an issue, though. But then, they make consumer-level 1000 watt PSUs. A hard drive takes 20 watts or so, so a 1000 watt supply could power ~50 at once.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Toeofdoom » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:31 am UTC

actually, consumer PSUs go up to atleast 1200W. I dont know why, but they do.
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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby FACM » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:00 pm UTC

davean wrote:This about fits my definition of "consumer" :)


My definition of 'consumer' doesn't include devices with a price of "This information isn't public"

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Larson » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:06 pm UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:actually, consumer PSUs go up to atleast 1200W. I dont know why, but they do.

Yeh, it's getting a bit out of control.

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Re: Maximum harddrive space with standard parts

Postby Toeofdoom » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:59 am UTC

Yeah, but I've actually seen a 1200W power supply, so it seems more real. That one is just absurd.
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