Alcohol...good/bad?

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Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby cacp » Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:57 am UTC

At what times does it become good/bad?
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Seven » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:03 am UTC

If a person can't stop with just one drink, then it's probably bad.

One definition of true alcoholism is that "one drink" triggers a craving. People with the craving can't "just learn how to drink"... not gonna happen. Best option is to NOT drink -- and learn how to handle life without it.

Abstaining from drink is called being "dry"... learning how to LIVE without it.... that's called SOBER.

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby elminster » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:26 am UTC

As with alot of things, using it in moderation at the correct times can improve ones life.

Bad = Alcoholic or when you drink to the point that your reckless.
Good = Drinking on social occasion to improve enjoyment and sociability.

A Muslim guy I know of, believes it's very quite a big probability that you would sleep with your mum while intoxicated (He's never drunk alcohol). Needless to say, peoples opinions differ alot.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:28 am UTC

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:31 am UTC

Alcohol is very very bad... for children. But once you turn 21, it becomes very very good. - Turanga Leela

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Klye » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:52 am UTC

It's good when other people have alot of it so you can laugh at them being stupid?
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:04 am UTC

Thats how I feel about psychedelics.

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby no-genius » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:35 pm UTC

Its probably bad to drink alcohol before 5pm. Still fun, tho.

edit: especially before a lecture, and even more so in the lecture.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby tiny » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:59 pm UTC

I don't drink any alcohol at all because I don't like the taste (exept in certain cooked foods) and it gives me severe stomach aches.
I don't say this anymore, though. I can't stand people going like 'What? You're kidding. Oh come on, try it. It's a good wine/champagne/beer/... If you eat something with it, your stomach won't hurt. Why don't you like it? You just have to get used to the taste. Blahblahblah.'. Really, people. Why is it such a big deal if someone doesn't like alcohol? Gah. I now say 'Sorry, I'm on medication.'. No one dares to argue with that, harr.

As far as I know, alcohol has recently been added to the List Of Stuff That Can Give You Cancer.
Since ethanol is such a small molecule it invades all cellular structures of the body, even the cell kernel... uh, nucleus, and it's not yet clear how and where in the nervous system it's effects are caused. I heard it being called a 'dirty drug'. Heroin would be a 'clean drug' since it docks to clearly identifiable receptors.
To have the healthy effects of wine you can drink grape juice. It doesn't help you digest fat since it ... ethanols down the acid in your stomach. Beer makes you fat. If you drink every other day on a regular basis - even if it's not much - your body starts to depend on the alcohol in order to function right. If you drink heavily on a regular basis your brain starts to lose substance.
So other than social pressure, the taste and getting high, there are no valid reasons to drink anything with alcohol in it.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Belial » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:14 pm UTC

As most of the scientific data you've quoted runs counter to a number of other things I understood as fairly well established, I'm going to have to ask for a citation.

As for the stomach aches...it sounds like you might be allergic. Even if you aren't, it makes for a good excuse.

The reason they press you so much is probably because:

1) Drinking is, for many people, a social activity, and they want you to be social with them.

2) Alchohol comes in a number of pretty awesome flavors that are hard to get in a nonalchoholic format and which, furthermore, lend themselves to mixing and the creation of NEW flavors. Therefore, they may have discovered/created something delicious and want to share with you. Awesome things are best when shared.

So don't get too indignant with the people who press the issue. Nine times out of ten it's because they like you. If they didn't, they wouldn't bother.

Just say you're allergic and move on.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby rrwoods » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:11 pm UTC

Alcohol is bad when you think about mixing Bailey's and Jagermeister.

Alcohol is good when you actually do the above and shoot it.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby apricity » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:51 am UTC

tiny wrote:it gives me severe stomach aches.

It's quite possible you're allergic to it. My grandmother was. You could always use that as an excuse too, so you're not lying so much.

I think alcohol is good when it's social or private but not overdone. It's bad when it's the ONLY way you can function socially, but if you and your friends just go out for a drink it's fine. It's bad when you consistently drink alone to the point of getting drunk... a glass of wine (or a shot of Bailey's in my hot chocolate, which incidentally is deeeelicious) because you like it is fine. I even think that occasionally getting drunk because you're miserable is okay, as long as you don't use that too often and completely avoid whatever's driving you to it. And obviously it's bad when you poison yourself.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Cowboy » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:03 am UTC

Question: If I am physically alone but chatting online with people and drinking does it still count as "social drinking"? Methinks, yes. *eyes fridge*
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Bakemaster » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:19 am UTC

The major difference I see is that on the internet nobody's actually there to gague your level of inebriation and check your consumption.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby pollywog » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:28 am UTC

lanicita wrote:
tiny wrote:it gives me severe stomach aches.

It's quite possible you're allergic to it. My grandmother was.


I think I am. If I drink anything other than wine or beer, or more than 3 units, I get massive headaches, feel incredibly nauseated, and can't sleep. A little more than that, and I vomit copiously, at least until I only have bile left. Any more than that, and I get memory loss (several times I have lost my memory back to a point where my last memory was hours before I started drinking) and end up dry retching for hours. A few times I have woken up with no recollection of where I am or how I got there, and spent 3 hours spewing up bile and crying in pain. My friends usually tell me that I tried vodka or something else.

So yeah, the only reason I drink is because wine and beer taste nice in moderation, and when I've had a little, I just keep going, probably with the thought, "It won't happen this time".
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Cowboy » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:33 am UTC

Bakemaster wrote:The major difference I see is that on the internet nobody's actually there to gague your level of inebriation and check your consumption.


Oh trust me, you'll know. A "Cowboy is drunk" tell-all would be jumping back into the Rand thread. Other than that I take for granted that if I'm functioning in any given conversation I'm less likely to fall into some sort of zombie-like depression/brain fart; not to mention that alcohol seems to always lubricate social wheels, whether online or in person.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby photosinensis » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:13 am UTC

I'm going to come out and say it: alcohol is generally a good thing.

That said, if you're an alcoholic, it isn't. Hence the "generally" above. Also, please at least give lip service to the local law with respect to drinking age.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Number3Pencils » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:46 am UTC

pollywog wrote:A little more than that, and I vomit copiously, at least until I only have bile left.

I saw that initially as "until I only have one bible left." An explanation of that would have been seriously entertaining.

I've never drunk, excepting communion wine and champagne that some adult irresponsibly gave me on a New Year's when I was, like, twelve. I figure it this way: Why drink?
1. For the buzz
I don't need a buzz to enjoy life. I think a buzz would impair my ability to live life, and make me enjoy it less.
2. For the taste
More like, for the burn. That's probably an overgeneralization (I wouldn't really know), but I do know that there are many tastes I like that aren't linked to alcohol, and I don't feel especially compelled to venture outside of that subset. (ROOT BEER I LOVE ROOT BEER)

I may revise this as I get older, but if I end up drinking, I'll definitely never be anything more than a mild drinker. It helps that my dad drinks a lot of beer, and when he's drunk he's a total asshole, and he's also got a hefty beer gut that I don't think would really be my style.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby JayDee » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:29 am UTC

Number3Pencils wrote:I've never drunk, excepting communion wine and champagne that some adult irresponsibly gave me on a New Year's when I was, like, twelve. I figure it this way: Why drink?
1. For the buzz
I don't need a buzz to enjoy life. I think a buzz would impair my ability to live life, and make me enjoy it less.
2. For the taste
More like, for the burn. That's probably an overgeneralization (I wouldn't really know), but I do know that there are many tastes I like that aren't linked to alcohol, and I don't feel especially compelled to venture outside of that subset. (ROOT BEER I LOVE ROOT BEER)

I may revise this as I get older, but if I end up drinking, I'll definitely never be anything more than a mild drinker. It helps that my dad drinks a lot of beer, and when he's drunk he's a total asshole, and he's also got a hefty beer gut that I don't think would really be my style.

Hmm. That used to be me exactly. I didn't see life being any better inebriated. I didn't like the taste. I also valued nothing more than my mind, and heard lots about alcohol killing brain cells, which isn't a big recommendation.

And yet now, a couple years latter, I drink as often (not necessarily as much) as pretty much anyone I know. I wonder what happened in there? My taste certainly changed. Wine went from being liquid wood to rather tasty. Scotch went from horrific to divine.

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby 22/7 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:33 am UTC

I've gotta say it's like anything else, good for some, bad for others. I certainly don't think there's anything inherently bad about it. In the words of Ben Franklin, "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby tiny » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:02 pm UTC

Belial wrote:As most of the scientific data you've quoted runs counter to a number of other things I understood as fairly well established, I'm going to have to ask for a citation.
The stuff about alcohol being a 'dirty' drug, raising the risk of getting cancer and destroying brain tissue when abused is from a series of documentaries by the German-French TV station arte, which is known for it's high quality documentaries about historical and social issues.
The title of the series was 'Gehirn unter Drogen/'Drogues et cerveau' ('Brain on Drugs') and it consisted of five parts: 'Cocaine and Uppers', 'Opiates and Downers', 'Cannabis', 'Alcohol and Tabac', 'Hallucinogetics and Ecstasy'.
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That grape juice has the same beneficial effects as wine is something my best friend's husband told me. But this link which is from the Wiki (on saponin) seems to falsify that, at least for one of the substances. I'll have to ask Marco where he got his info from and which healthy substances were named.
The lack of positive effects concerning the digestion of fat... where did I get that one from *scratches head* It was one of my friends. I'll ask them.
I found this concerning the issue. Don't know how reliable this source is, but it says about the same as netdoktor.de, which I know as rather reliable.
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As for the stomach aches...it sounds like you might be allergic. Even if you aren't, it makes for a good excuse.
Pain alone wasn't accepted as an excuse, but an allergy might work and I wouldn't have to bring up my other health issues. Thanks for the tip.

So don't get too indignant with the people who press the issue. Nine times out of ten it's because they like you. If they didn't, they wouldn't bother.
Hm... It's always on family gatherings where they all know that I have never liked alcohol, so I beg to differ.
My three friends never offered me an alcoholic drink again since I told them I don't like the taste.

lanicita wrote:It's quite possible you're allergic to it. My grandmother was. You could always use that as an excuse too, so you're not lying so much.
I've never lied concerning the alcohol stuff. I *am* on a medication that forbids me to drink.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby wenna226 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:16 pm UTC

At my last job, I didn't drink, mainly because I wasn't of age yet, and because my roommates didn't, and we had a blast no matter what. (Hello run-on sentence.) However, all of co-workers did drink. So on the weekends they would always have parties or get togethers, and never invite me, even though we were completely buddy buddy at work. Then my 21st birthday rolled around and I decided that I was going to start drinking... Then my co-workers started inviting me to their parties. I asked them why they never invited me before, and they said because they felt bad because I didn't drink and they didn't I would have a good time.

Now I drink... often. Me and my husband have a liquor cabinet full (like a bar), or all different types of alcohol. One of our favorite things to do on the weekend is look up new drinks or shots and try them. It's fun.

Too bad, we just moved and have no friends to enjoy this with.

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Hammer » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:57 pm UTC

tiny wrote:Pain alone wasn't accepted as an excuse, but an allergy might work and I wouldn't have to bring up my other health issues. Thanks for the tip.

Just a general note: If you enjoy drinking, good for you. If you can drink without problems, good for you. If you offer someone a drink and they refuse, please don't insist. Alcohol is a dangerous and addictive substance. If someone is uncomfortable drinking or simply prefers not to, they shouldn't have to lie or come with an "acceptable" excuse. "No, thank you," should be sufficient.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Angelene » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:31 pm UTC

Hammer wrote:
tiny wrote:Pain alone wasn't accepted as an excuse, but an allergy might work and I wouldn't have to bring up my other health issues. Thanks for the tip.

Just a general note: If you enjoy drinking, good for you. If you can drink without problems, good for you. If you offer someone a drink and they refuse, please don't insist. Alcohol is a dangerous and addictive substance. If someone is uncomfortable drinking or simply prefers not to, they shouldn't have to lie or come with an "acceptable" excuse. "No, thank you," should be sufficient.


QFT.

More often than not I drink mineral waters when out of an evening and the number of bartenders who roll their eyes or make some sarky comment when I order as much is ridiculous, let alone any random boys who happen to be hanging around the bar. I thought peer pressure was a teenage issue, apparently not.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Hammer » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:07 pm UTC

CaraInFrames wrote:I thought peer pressure was a teenage issue, apparently not.

I don't think that's it. I think that drinkers know how ridiculous they look to people who are sober, so they want to make sure there aren't any around. :D :wink:
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Kizyr » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:16 pm UTC

Any amount of alcohol, unless it's involved in medicinal treatment, is bad.

But, like was said in the second/third post, opinions differ.

I've never run into peer-pressure situations, though. I don't tell people they're awful folks for drinking (not that I actually believe that anyway, since it should take way more than disagreement on the decency of alcohol to think of someone as a good or bad person). And, I've never run into any issues with folks insisting that I drink either. I'm sure peer pressure exists to some extent, but I've never encountered a situation where I've felt pressured to drink. ...on the contrary, really, I've had folks looking out for me before.

All the same, I still level with people and say it's for religious/ethical reasons when they ask why; I don't like making up reasons. KF
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Cassi » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:12 pm UTC

A few years ago, I was of the opinion that alcohol was a terrible terrible thing, and that I would never ever drink it. I'd had a few tastes of some of my dad's drinks, and never thought much of them anyway. Now, I've realised that some alcohol does taste rather nice, and that I am a fairly amusing drunk. I don't drink often at all (though it's likely this will increase once I do actually turn 18), and I doubt I ever will, but I look back and don't know why I had such strong opinions against alcohol before.

I have a feeling a lot of it has to do with different attitudes towards drinking in the US and UK, though. In the US I was never told anything in school other than alcohol is evil. Here it's just accepted that we do (or will) drink, and so we're just told to at least be sensible about it. Interestingly, I've actually found there seems to be less pressure to drink here...in the States, among people who drank (or even those who didn't, but saw no problem with it and planned to once they were legal (or nearer to it)), I was looked down upon for not. Here, while I have started drinking, I found no pressure before I made that decision, and I have friends who don't drink -- no one ever really even suggests they drink. Besides, you need a few sober people around to remind you of how stupid you acted. ;P
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Girl™ » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:17 pm UTC

CaraInFrames wrote:More often than not I drink mineral waters when out of an evening and the number of bartenders who roll their eyes or make some sarky comment when I order as much is ridiculous, let alone any random boys who happen to be hanging around the bar. I thought peer pressure was a teenage issue, apparently not.


Of course bartenders are going to scorn you for not drinking. No alcohol=cheaper drinks=less tip money.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby d33p » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:06 pm UTC

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7) pole-dancing at gay bars
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9) ???
10) PROFIT!
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Axman » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:18 pm UTC

I'm allergic to sulfites. No wine, dark beer, sherry, port, vodka, mead, and clear liquors with color preservatives. Epi-pen, can't eat food with grapes, strawberries, and things-that-are-deliciously-allergenic allergic to sulfites.

But thank the fucking Lord for Bourbon, brandy, Scotch, and all other whiskeys. Aqua vitae infuckingdeed.

Still, I think it's probably very, very unlikely for a person to have an alcohol allergy. It's one of those chemicals that's too small for your body to interact with, save for that it still kicks in the barbiturate effects, and that other chemicals that your liver produce turn it into sugar. That's all brain (and liver) chemistry, which does mean that ethanol is so small that it crosses the blood-brain barrier unhindered, let alone pegs an immune system response. Gluten, sulfite, and sugar allergies are the more reasonable culprit.

The likelihood of alcohol (not alcoholism, which fucks everything) causing cancer, as far as I understand it, is bullshit. Binge-drinking aside, booze is great for you, it lowers your blood pressure, breaks down cholesterol, and does other positive things. And in any case, it's emotionally, if not physically, purgative. Also, I wouldn't believe anyone who's never used booze to coast through something tough, even a single event. Except maybe Buddhists and Mormons.

Smokes* stave off Alzheimer's, and pot holds off glaucoma. (Although my law-abiding nature pretty much dictates that I get glaucoma first.)

*Tobacco, alas, is also high in sulfites. Part of the curing process. I have a built-in cigarette limiter, though, that's...alright.

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Axman » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:21 pm UTC

Oh yeah, and beer and wine taste bad until your brain re-wires it's taste interpreters to associate booze with yum. This only happens once puberty is basically done, so if you didn't like beer as a kid and swore it off forever...you're wrong. It becomes delicious, it's just a matter of time and exposure.

That, and fuck all for alcohol being addictive. That's a myth, moreso punctuated by the fact that alcohol addiction is a disease, which, in case you missed it, means that there's something wrong.

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Belial » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:26 pm UTC

Also, I wouldn't believe anyone who's never used booze to coast through something tough, even a single event.


Yo.

But I have a pretty high tolerance (except that one night in boston, wtf....), so using alchohol as self medication rarely occurs to me. Getting drunk and staying drunk is too expensive.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby d33p » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:38 pm UTC

Belial wrote:But I have a pretty high tolerance...


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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Hammer » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:44 pm UTC

Pedantry aside, alcohol makes many people sick in a number of different ways. I don't feel it should be necessary for someone to provide excuses that are acceptable to someone else to not drink.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby 22/7 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:55 pm UTC

d33p wrote:Top Ten Side Effects of Alcohol on Deep:
1) an overwhelming wanderlust leading to long walks for no apparent reason
2) an overwhelming urge to climb anything and everything, also for no reason
3) kleptomania, including objects not generally considered theft-worthy (sparkly wigs, tiki umbrellas, construction barrels, and soup kitchen signs come to mind...)
4) excessive romanticism and horrifically cheesy pick-up lines ("icanhazsloppymakeoutz?" I wish I never said that.)
5) random fora posts or MySpace messages that must be revisited the next day
6) narcissism, manifest in the illusion that I am a fabulous dancer and everyone wants to witness this
7) pole-dancing at gay bars
8) sidewalk tug-of-war
9) ???
10) PROFIT!


I want to see you having a tug of war with the sidewalk.

I've got a friend who was with me in Australia who's a "runner" when she drinks. She's got like 15 minutes of her life that no one can account for. We went looking for her and after that chunk of time she came wandering around a corner. From then on we made sure that someone was sober enough to keep up with her when she takes off.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby d33p » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:05 pm UTC

Heh, generally when I disappear anywhere in public after drinking, my crew immediately cranes their necks and starts scanning the rooftops.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby tiny » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:17 pm UTC

Hammer wrote:Pedantry aside, alcohol makes many people sick in a number of different ways. I don't feel it should be necessary for someone to provide excuses that are acceptable to someone else to not drink.
You are so right. Yet it seems to me, that in western culture, alcohol is kind of a maturity ritual. If you are mature, you drink. If you don't drink, you don't really belong.

d33p wrote:Top Ten Side Effects of Alcohol on Deep:
[funny list of drunk behaviour]
When my dad is drunk he feels the urge to sing. Loudly so. He gets very unconcentrated, too. So when he walks home, he can only walk three steps or so, before he has to stop in order to concentrate on singing. He gets very touchy-feely and sentimental, too. Unbelievably embarrassing.
I was drunk (like in: 'What did I do??O.o') only once, on my 17th birthday. I ended up on the lap of a classmate, trying to pick his nose.
Don't ask, cause I really don't know.

Axman wrote:Still, I think it's probably very, very unlikely for a person to have an alcohol allergy. It's one of those chemicals that's too small for your body to interact with, save for that it still kicks in the barbiturate effects, and that other chemicals that your liver produce turn it into sugar.(...) Gluten, sulfite, and sugar allergies are the more reasonable culprit.
Or perhaps my stomach is just whiny. It doesn't like fruit acids and chili, too.
Let me think... Champagne, vodka, Pilsener beer, liqueur, fruit in rum, fruit in schnaps (my mum loves to make that), Bacardi... I guess that's all I've ever tried. I don't know if they have an ingredient in common, aside from ethanol.

(...)Also, I wouldn't believe anyone who's never used booze to coast through something tough, even a single event.(...)
*poses* I once drank a complete 1/2 jigger of De Kuyper Bessen Jenever (black currant liqueur, 20%vol.) to get shit-faced just because I wanted to :-D
I don't know if it was placebo effect, but I actually got dizzy and significantly more incoherent and wrote a horrible smutlet with a friend on ICQ.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby JayDee » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:46 pm UTC

d33p wrote:Top Ten Side Effects of Alcohol on Deep:
2) an overwhelming urge to climb anything and everything, also for no reason

I have a friend like this, who also gains the ability to climb on things that might as well be Everest when she's sober.

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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby Hammer » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:32 am UTC

tiny wrote:
Hammer wrote:Pedantry aside, alcohol makes many people sick in a number of different ways. I don't feel it should be necessary for someone to provide excuses that are acceptable to someone else to not drink.
You are so right. Yet it seems to me, that in western culture, alcohol is kind of a maturity ritual. If you are mature, you drink. If you don't drink, you don't really belong.

I agree that is the perception. There are a number of holes in that theory. Personally, I opted to prove my maturity in other ways.

My friends were a bit skeptical, but they got over it. They actually came to enjoy having a designated driver. Not to mention someone who would put out the fire they started, take care of them while they vomited and make sure the places they suddenly decided to fall asleep were relatively safe. It was a royal pain in the ass for me.

I find the company of people who have had more than a couple of drinks to fall anywhere between tiresome and intolerable depending on what kind of drunks they are. I generally find myself really wishing that a few of those inhibitions they lubed away would come back. When I was 22, it was just annoying. I'm pushing 39 now and it's become increasingly less cute. Not to mention that a frightening percentage of the people I used to party with are now paying the directly alcohol-related check in a variety of miserable and awful ways. When we were 18-22, we just thought it was just good fun. I have a very different perspective now.
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Re: Alcohol...good/bad?

Postby b.i.o » Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:53 am UTC

I'm in college and I don't drink at all. Thankfully no one who does cares (and there are a surprising amount of other people on my hall who don't drink either). Some of my friends are annoying as all hell when drunk (no I DON'T need your estimated BAC recited every 5 minutes, thank you very much) but the rest are fine and I keep them from doing anything that would have any long term effects.


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