Thinking about going vegetarian...advice? thoughts?

[jgcrawfo]

Regarding health: I know a fella who's a vegetarian body builder. Saying vegetarianism is unhealthy is just nonsense. Of course, any venture, undertaken for the wrong reasons (women), will probably screw up unless you sincerely care about it and want it for yourself.
Vegetables are good for you, and there are some pretty cool herbivores out there. I would not want to fuck with a buffalo. Eating a meat diet without meat is bad, but that is what this thread is about. Complaining about vegetarianism being unhealthy here is kind of stupid. Yes, we know meatless diets can mess you up, but that is what we're trying to fix/avoid so get with the program already.

Regarding motive: Why be vegetarian? Opposition to killing animals. Perfectly valid reason. I am of the opinion that if you couldn't deal with killing and butchering an animal, you shouldn't eat meat.
Opposition of cruel factory farming processes. Another fine reason, since it produces lower quality, hormone laden, BSE et al breeding meat. Farmers markets are an alternative, but can be more expensive.
Opposition to wasting resources growing and feeding animals. The world has a lot of people in it, and the crops and resources spent maintaining animals could well be spent on feeding humans.
Health reasons are harder to defend and more readily contested. Thus, unless you are talking with someone who would make for an interesting/stimulating debate or you are looking for a fight, I'd avoid this one.

Regarding the poor attitude towards vegetarianism here my snap judgments based on isolated comments preachiness: Being a vegetarian does not make you a preachy jerk, being a preachy jerk makes you a preachy jerk. Just because you have known an ass who is vegetarian does not make all vegetarians asses any more than one internet jerk makes every person on the internet a jerk. And remember, as with all social interactions, you are not usually a passive participant. Your reactions to someone will change their mood and how they react to you, so if you are open to listening and not judging, you may disarm conflict before it even happens.
Inviting someone round for dinner and serving food they can't eat is a dick move whether we're talking allergies, religion, or personal preference. If you don't like them enough to make them something they will like to eat, why the hell are you inviting them into your home for food?

Regarding the original post: Mushrooms, beans, quinoa, lentils, spinach, broccoli. Lack of protein is an easy mistake and will mess you up, as is lack of iron. This has been covered, but again again again it needs to be emphasized for any one else interested and reading.
The Modern Vegetarian Kitchen is one of my favorite books and I am not even a vegetarian. Vegetarian cooking relies on spices, sauces, and interesting flavours rather than chunks of meat, making it more interesting, challenging, and delicious. Also, you can steal vegetarian ideas to make your meat better, at the very least. I feel a bit like a traitor when I make beef with my indian spices, but it is pretty darn good.

Regarding Eskimo/Inuit: Eskimo is a term applied to the Inuit by outsiders, and as such, is not the preferred term, besides the fact that it is often used as a racial slur with negative connotations. I am part Inuit and grew up in Labrador, my knowledge trumps wikipedia, at least for my area.

Regarding Axman: Dude, what the crap?
"Besides, I don't know any vegetarian converts who won't admit to getting sick more often and feeling tired all the time."
Iron, vitamin, and protein deficiency. This happens when people go vegetarian without a good diet.
"But, now armed with the knowledge that your body literally rewards your brain for gorging yourself on meat, why would you ever want to give it up?"
What? I've never experienced this.
"Oh yeah, and while my cholesterol went down, so did my red blood count."
Iron deficiency.
"My weight actually went up since all I ate was pasta, and your body needs protein when breaking down fat for energy."
Bad move. Don't replace meat with carbohydrates, and eat vegetarian protein sources, as discussed in this thread.
"And meat's not fattening, fat is."
Meat can be fatty. Unless you diligently trim all your meat, it will contain fat.
"And, of course, diet without exercise is pretty pointless; if your real reason (because nobody actually feels the plight of poor widdle cows) is weight loss, man up and go jogging."
Weight loss was not the goal as stated in this thread, health was. Also, plenty of people feel the plight of the cows, or at least, they feel guilt enough to compensate.

Regarding me: Jesus fucking christ shut the hell up already dude no one's reading this far anyways.

[Moo]

I read it all but Blind Io knows why. Dude, you need to lay off the coffee.

One pick out of the many reasons your post was rude and inaccurate at least in places: no-one was anti- vegetarian due to preachyness. It was stated time and time again that people were against preachyness. Then they went on to mention they have often experienced it in the form of vegetarian preachyness.

In the interest of fairness you made the occassional good point. Still flagged up your avatar as "may contain jerk comments" in my mind's eye though.

[Azrael]

no-one was anti- vegetarian due to preachyness. It was stated time and time again that people were against preachyness. Then they went on to mention they have often experienced it in the form of vegetarian preachyness.

... and he went on to support the idea that being a preachy jerk makes someone a preachy jerk, and that vegetarianism has nothing to do with it. See, right here:

Being a vegetarian does not make you a preachy jerk, being a preachy jerk makes you a preachy jerk.

And beyond this misunderstanding, if he's posted inaccuracies, quote them and refute them.

[jgcrawfo]

Sorry if I was rude. "Don't be a preachy <x>" comes across to me as rude to the set of all <x>, simply because "Don't be a preachy dick" is assumed by me as general life advice, and specifically restating it for <x> then sounds like there's something against <x> in particular.

Please refute my points that are inaccurate. Make me a better person.
No, seriously. I need to know where I'm going wrong, if I am.

[Axman]

Regarding Axman: Dude, what the crap?

I, uh, I cook on cast iron. I've never had iron deficiency, and Bonfils calls me ever day about donating no matter how many hours have passed since my last bleeding.

My point is that vegetarianism doesn't work for me, and I've commiserated with plenty of other people about it not working for them, either. I didn't say it was unhealty*, I said dramatically changing your diet fucks with your system. I said the same thing about adding meat back to your diet, except that it's worse. And I still have not (personally, xkcd posters aside) met any vegetarians that didn't admit to feeling slowed down--or who didn't secretly eat dead animal.

And this was the OP:

It's a bit of a whim, but after reading about cruelty to animals in the meat industry and about how healthy a vegetarian diet (and knowing that I could lose a few pounds), I've been thinking about becoming a vegetarian

to which I and others responded that not eating meat doesn't change how you lose weight, and that you can avoid supporting industrialized animal cruelty by only eating meat that was cared for. It's not more expensive than going veggie, anyway.

*and you can make any "diet" unhealty. As a cook and the son of a cook, I have the keys to unhealthy diets, and they turn so smooth.

[Moo]

Can't be bothered to refute paragraph for paragraph, not being arsy, really, just late and have a test tomorrow and it's really not that important.

It was mostly the preachy thing and the general rudeness of tone and picking people up on every little thing (like I've been asked to do).

"Apology accepted" sounds so completely arrogant, I am going to go with "We're all good, I hope?".

[mosc]

for ethical reasons I gave up mammals. I still eat poultry though which makes up a huge chunk of my diet. Personally, I've never really had a problem with chicken abuse so I can eat them in good conscience. It's actually pretty easy to live with because there are so many options out there. Turkey makes a great substitute for nearly anything except a stake and generally those aren't high on potential Vegetarian's list of favorites anyway. I personally adore turkey pepperoni and turkey bacon. Roast Beef is hard to replace as well and if ppl tell you that Turkey Jerky is just as good they are nuts but we all have to make some sacrifices

Giving up meat doesn't have to be so restrictive. I feel like people get pigeon holed into "vegetarian" and "non-vegetarian". Frankly, there's a world in between where you'll find people like me. You might try it more slowly phasing out things in your diet you don't want to eat anymore (for whatever reason) and see what's left rather than letting society dictate what your diet will now exclusively consist of now that you're a 'V-word'.

[Kendo_Bunny]

I'd suggest talking to a nutritionist if you've had iron problems in the past. Here's a blanket statement that can't really be argued with- vegetarianism CAN be unhealthy... along with every other diet in existence. The health of vegetarianism vs. other diets is usually from the fact that vegetarians and vegans are more aware of what exactly they are eating. It's the same on any restrictive diet.
Before you go cold turkey, try to figure out how fast you metabolize protein. I tried going vegetarian for Lent- two weeks in I felt so terrible that I started eating meat again and perked right up. I have higher protein needs than nuts could provide, and I don't care for tofu. A good friend of mine has been vegetarian for years and eats a fairly low protein diet. It's all about what diet works for you. Try measuring your protein intake before you give up meats- if you consume too little, you'll feel lethargic, your wounds will heal slowly, and you'll probably feel somewhat depressed. If you consume too much, you'll probably have bad indigestion. Just play around with it until you find the amount that makes you feel best, and determine whether that's possible on a vegetarian diet (and it probably will be if you're alert).

For things that make you gain weight, refined carbs are probably the worst, and the best thing to ease out of your diet. Note that this is white bread, pastries, white rice, etc., not whole-grain breads, brown rice, or homemade granolas. If you're trying to eat healthier in general, swap any white or bleached flour you can for whole-grain, and save the refined stuff for special occasions. Ease into that, though, too, because the fiber overload can do a number on your system until you get used to it.

Make sure to get a supplement with iron and vitamin B12- it never hurts to be prepared.

Also, keep in mind that "All Natural" doesn't mean anything. Check up on products if you have ethical reasons for this.

[The Mighty Thesaurus]

Can't be bothered to refute paragraph for paragraph, not being arsy, really, just late and have a test tomorrow and it's really not that important.

It was mostly the preachy thing and the general rudeness of tone and picking people up on every little thing (like I've been asked to do).

"Apology accepted" sounds so completely arrogant, I am going to go with "We're all good, I hope?".

Are we reading the same thread?

[crazyjimbo]

I'm practically vegetarian through no real action of my own. Two of my flat mates are vegetarian and so we almost always cook vegetarian meals. The surprising thing is we eat the same goddamn meals we would if we weren't vegetarian. There are so many vegetarian substitutes out there, that all you really need to do is swap out the meat with something designed to replace it. I would swear by the Quorn range. Often it is tastier and far easier to cook than the meat it is replacing anyway. The chicken style pieces, mince and sausages are all excellent, although I haven't really found a substitutes for lamb and beef.

Just to further inflict my point, the last few meals I have had have been haggis and veg, sausage casserole, and meatballs and pasta. All vegetarian. It doesn't need to be all about the tofu.

So if you're going vegetarian, do it gradually and realise that it doesn't need to amount to a full on change of diet. Only a few adjustments are necessary and I did it without even noticing!

[Moo]

Are we reading the same thread?

Not in the same way, it would seem.

[jskyhawk]

I really don't see all of these problems people face with being vegetarian; either they don't exist, or I'm impervious. I have been vegetarian for 10 years (its my decennial anniversary!!). I have had no lack of energy, no iron deficiency, no lack of protein, and I am at not too fat or too skinny (perfect BMI).

I also haven't eaten any meat knowingly in this whole period. When I started it was because I had been getting sick from meat, and I did stop cold Tofurky.

As for my diet I eat pretty much what I please, my favorites are fruits and vegetables, whole grains and rice, pasta, and cheese. I understand that a lot of prepared dishes and cheeses have some sort of meat product/byproduct but it has never bothered me. Like most chesses have rennet (from the lining of animals stomach) which is used in the process of making the curd. I have also learned that a lot of Thai dishes use some sort of fish oil.

[Moo]

I have been vegetarian for 10 years (its my centennialdecennial anniversary!!).

<other very valid and Quatable for Truth points>

fix'd

[jskyhawk]

I have been vegetarian for 10 years (its my centennialdecennial anniversary!!).

<other very valid and Quatable for Truth points>

fix'd

I am doing it wrong today

fix'd and edit'd

[Moo]

'sOK.

[The Mighty Thesaurus]

I have been vegetarian for 10 years (its my centennialdecennial anniversary!!).

<other very valid and Quatable for Truth points>

fix'd

Quatable?

[jskyhawk]

I have been vegetarian for 10 years (its my centennialdecennial anniversary!!).

<other very valid and Quatable for Truth points>

fix'd

Quatable?

ooosh we are both doing it wrong!

I must insist we all stop and drink more coffee.

[Moo]

No, actually, I was doing it totally rightwrong.

<stupid bit>

*Moo ponders the virtue of humility and the usefulness of spellcheckers*

[The Mighty Thesaurus]

What the hell does "quatable" mean?

[ocean_soul]

You can be a vegetarian without using any "replacements". Speeking from experience here. Indeed a lot of people, even doctors, think you can't. But remember: in science, experiments beat all theories.

[Moo]

*Moo blames brain-frizzling studying, late nights, a new year, having English as her second language, and anything else you'd buy for being an idiot*

*Moo apologises to Teh Mighty One and goes back to remove some of the more stupid parts of her post. Oh wait that's all of it*

[SomeoneElse]

I'm a vegetarian, and have been for about 12 years. I'm proof that it works, cause i'm still alive.

It takes no effort - all you need to do is.. well, stop eating meat, really. I eat Quorn and stuff like that sometimes, when the rest of my family are having the meat equivalent, but there's no reason you can't get by on pasta, vegetables, and lots and lots of cheese. If you're that worried, have a flick through vegetarian cookbooks.

[Moo]

there's no reason you can't get by on pasta, vegetables, and lots and lots of cheese.

Get by, yes. Have enough iron for a female, especially one who's had problems with it before, no. Not gain lots of weight or actually lose some like the original poster wants to, no. Have enough proteien also no I'm thinking, depending on just how much "lots and lots" is.

[Mighty Jalapeno]

Have enough iron for a female, especially one who's had problems with it before, no.

Rolled oats, spinach, broccoli, red or black beans, bok-choy...

Not gain lots of weight or actually lose some like the original poster wants to, no.

Cauliflower, carrots, leafy green vegetables, kale...

Have enough proteien also no I'm thinking, depending on just how much "lots and lots" is.

Quinoa, red lentils, pot barley, bok-choy, TVP...

[Moo]

Not gain lots of weight or actually lose some like the original poster wants to, no.

Cauliflower, carrots, leafy green vegetables, kale...

no reason you can't get by on pasta, vegetables, and lots and lots of cheese.

Otherwise, fair enough.

[Mighty Jalapeno]

Well, you're not going to sit there, eating pasta and cheese every single day, and mumbling around it "I'd lose weight, if only I was allowed to eat meat!"

And if you were, I'd probably be laughing at you.

[Moo]

I wasn't commenting on vegetarianism, just the post that read "just eat pasta and veg and cheese!" and in that context, it's a pretty damn fair comment I think!

I'm not the one sitting anywhere eating anything, the poster of the advice advocated it not me.

I've actually not commented negatively on vegetarianism anywhere on this thread.

[Mighty Jalapeno]

I misunderstood. My bad.

Yes, pasta and cheese are vegetarian, and pasta and cheese are delicious! However, they are not the cornerstone of a healthy diet. Salads are slowly taking over at my house (since my son is starting to get picky again, but he ALWAYS likes salad, for some reason... seriously, what kid turns down macaroni, or meatloaf?!?) Also, pastas can very easily be made much healthier.

Healthy Pasta Information

1.) Make your own damn sauce. This can be done by just buying tomatoes (get cheap ones, the taste is not really affected). Peel them (or blanch them, just as good) to get rid of the skins. Then throw into a pot and cook on medium for 3-4 hours. You can go through with a big whisk to remove all the un-mushed cores if you want, not necessary. In a separate pan, sautee onions, garlic, green peppers, and ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT, with a mixture of red wine vinegar, balsamic vinegar and olive oil. Sear all that on high heat, stirring a lot. Add a little can of tomato paste to all that, mix well, and add to the sauce. Mix up sauce, salt to taste. This is much better for you and lasts a long time.

2.) Whole wheat pasta. It's not a LOT better, but any extra dietary fibre makes a big difference.

3.) Don't have a lot. 8-10oz is enough for anyone. The pasta and salad should take up equal space on the place. One batch of leftovers will keep for a week, so from one batch of pasta you can eat three or four meals. From one big batch of sauce you can make four batches of pasta. Thats sixteen meals from one batch of sauce!

4.) Easy on the cheese. Get strong cheese, like Romano, and only use a little.

Spaghetti is one of the few things everyone in the house agrees on, so we spend a lot of time trying to make it as good as possible.

[SomeoneElse]

I wasn't commenting on vegetarianism, just the post that read "just eat pasta and veg and cheese!" and in that context, it's a pretty damn fair comment I think!

I'm not the one sitting anywhere eating anything, the poster of the advice advocated it not me.

I've actually not commented negatively on vegetarianism anywhere on this thread.

Jeebus, I didn't actually mean "ONLY EAT PASTA, VEGETABLES, AND CHEESE". You need to eat a good amount of chocolate too!

Srsly though, what i'm saying is that you don't need to panic about what you're eating. If you're conscious about having a certain amount of iron etc, you should be thinking about it regardless of whether you're a vegetarian or not. Sure, you may need to think about where else you can gather nutrients from, and there are plenty of places you can get these sorts of things from. For instance, you can get iron from wholegrain bread, beans, chickpeas, potato skins... Meat does have nutrients, definitely, but you can survive by going elsewhere for everythng.

[Moo]

I know, I wasn't that irrate about your post at that point, just the grief I was getting for my comment on it.
Anyway, your "more chocolate" has made me forgive you, MJ and my stupid colleague I was mad at.

[Axman]

Meat does have nutrients, definitely, but you can survive by going elsewhere for everythng.

Unless you're a kid. Seriously, people who raise their kids vegetarian mustn't ignore the similarities with other people sending their kids to Jesus Camp. It's not the best thing for normal, healthy growth.

[unjovial]

Meat does have nutrients, definitely, but you can survive by going elsewhere for everythng.

Unless you're a kid. Seriously, people who raise their kids vegetarian mustn't ignore the similarities with other people sending their kids to Jesus Camp. It's not the best thing for normal, healthy growth.

Is it really not the best thing for normal, healthy growth in children? I mean, do we know this because balanced vegetarian diets have produced weak, sickly children with stunted growth or general poor health? I should look it up myself, but if you have any reliable information/links about raising vegetarian children could you share them here please?

I just ask because I'm a vegetarian and I don't know where I stand about raising kids on vegetarian diets, but since I'm not planning on having children any time soon (if ever), I'm in no hurry to research it in-depth.

[Nath]

I do know some kids who were raised healthy on vegetarian (not vegan) diets. They might have been in better health if they grew up eating meat, or they might not.

In any case, it seems likely that incorporating meat into a kid's diet increases his or her chances of growing up in good health (though I don't have hard, scientific data). I know some vegetarian parents who raise kids eating meat: they may not want to kill animals for their own enjoyment, but they're OK with doing so for their kids' health.

[PictureSarah]

I think kids can be raised in perfect health as vegetarians. But in order to do so, it's going to be A LOT of work for the parent. Much more than if their kids ate meat. It will have to be a diet with a lot of variety to ensure that all the proper vitamins and nutrition are received. As far as protein and iron go, though, not really a problem. Beans, nuts, soy products - all have lots of protein. Spinach has more iron per ounce than beef does, but you have to take in vitamin C at the same time as the spinach in order to properly absorb the iron. Being a healthy vegetarian is definitely something that requires some education, but it's very possible, even for children.

[Moo]

I apologise for being the snooty voice of Snopes-yness, but

The myth about spinach and its high iron content may have first been propagated by Dr. E. von Wolf in 1870, because a misplaced decimal point in his publication led to an iron-content figure that was ten times too high.

[existential_elevator]

Vegetarianism can be just as healthy or unhealthy as a diet with meat in it. Sure, you have to pay a bit more attention to making sure you get enough of what you need, but you also have to worry less about getting too much of things like saturated fat and cholesterol, that you don't need.

Also, if there's an ethical reason for deciding to go vegetarian, in addition to health concerns, I'd say by all means go for it, Delalyra. It is possible to cut meat cold-turkey, as it were, and to continue being perfectly healthy after doing so, for years and years. (My sister dropped meat one day when she was 9, having dropped fish when she was 4, and is now 21, still a vegetarian, and the healthiest person in my immediate family.) However, like most things, it's probably going to be easier in general to ease into it gradually. Drop red meat first, then gradually cut down on the amount of fish and poultry you eat, until, maybe a month after starting, you've gone vegetarian.

Completely agreed, and this is exactly what I did.

...there's no chance I'm your sister, right?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I know there's a "blood type" diet that supposedly is really good for you and tailored to your specific body chemistry based on the nutritional value of a bunch of different foods (I'm A+, so meat is something that diet would tell me to avoid, for instance). I have no idea if this is BS or not, but it's something to consider--your body chemistry might need more protein than you can get without meat, not everyone's body has the same needs, so you CAN get cruelty-free meat when you need it.

Um, no one seems to have addressed this, so I will say that it is almost certainly complete bullshit. One gene determines ABO bloodtype, metabolism is regulated by countless genes, none of which are the one for bloodtype. People do have different body chemistries (determining that, say chicken, is only for people group X seems silly regardless) but even if you were to tailor a diet to someone's chemistry (which would be complicated), blood typing is an idiotic way to go about it. Then again, maybe someday I can set myself up as a phrenologist/dietitian.

[cathrl]

It's a bit of a whim, but after reading about cruelty to animals in the meat industry and about how healthy a vegetarian diet (and knowing that I could lose a few pounds), I've been thinking about becoming a vegetarian, or a flexetarian and only eating meat occasionally. I still live with my family, but I am able to cook/buy food for myself at least two meals a day.

So, I guess I'm looking for ideas about how to start? Should I just dive right into it, or start slowly? I've been looking up stuff myself, of course, but hidden gems of websites are always appreciated, as are the opinions of xkcders. Or we can discuss our own experiences about vegetarianism; but not the morality, there are at least two threads for that if you search.

If I were you I'd start slowly. Not least because your body's used to meat. Sudden changes in diet of any sort can, um, foul up your digestion in an uncomfortable way. Why not just start out by, when you're cooking for yourself, cook something vegetarian? And have a vegetarian option if you're buying a meal out?

I'm not vegetarian myself, and have no intention of becoming vegetarian. But I do enjoy vegetarian food. At college it was well-known that the vegetarian option for our dinners was generally much nicer than the non-vegetarian one - so about 50% of the people who lived in college were registered as vegetarian, including me. (They asked you beforehand if you were vegetarian, and if you weren't on the list you had to wait until everyone else was served to get the vegetarian option to ensure that there was enough for the "real" registered vegetarians Ah, the joys of formal hall...)

[Kendo_Bunny]

For the blood type diet- I'm A+ and would get extremely sick and possibly die without a meat-heavy diet. I either don't naturally produce a healthy amount of cholesterol or I just don't absorb it from food properly, but my cholesterol (both "good" and "bad") is in the dangerously low range.

So I'm going to say it's probably not a very good idea.

[mypsychoticself]

[snip] I either don't naturally produce a healthy amount of cholesterol or I just don't absorb it from food properly, but my cholesterol (both "good" and "bad") is in the dangerously low range. [snip]

Whether or not you're changing your diet, it's important to pay attention to your body. Headaches are one of the first symptoms of dehydration, feeling weak/cold is a symptom of iron deficiency, etc. As you grow older, your body chemistry changes, which can affect the way you respond to your diet.

Two things to do, regardless of whether or not you're a vegetarian: Drink plenty of water (you can also get water from juice, fruits, etc., but not from soda or alcohol), and take a dietary supplement. Women may need to take an extra supplement, since not all supplements have sufficient amounts of calcium (this is especially true if you have a family history of osteoporosis). Lastly, while it's important to get enough iron, it's also important not to get too much. It is possible to overdose on iron. Be especially careful if you're pregnant or have children living in your house. Iron poisoning is a leading cause of death in children. [Citation]