Borg vs. Zerg

[setzer777]

I'm not sure it would be a stalemate in the first scenario. That would also depend on travel speed - if transwarp is significantly faster than Zerg warp rifts, they could wipe out (or blockade) all the Zerg planets before they spread too far.

Of course most of this is going simply by technology and assuming both sides are fighting smart. But given the Borg's attitude of always sending the absolute minimum force they think will do the job (and their overconfidence in judging that), I imagine they would underestimate the Zerg at first (especially if they didn't sense the psychic force directing them) and effectively give them lots of time to spread throughout the galaxy.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Actually, that's another issue that bothers me about SC, I never got a firm handle on how big the Zerg were. Were they from a previously-unexplored-part-of-space, now discovering the storyline races? The Protoss were aware of them, and were glassing planets in response, but I was never sure who had the upper hand pre-SC...I mean, sometimes they talk like the Protoss had nearly wiped them out (otherwise, acting like Tassadar went so wrong doesn't make sense over one planet) but on the other hand, they're still this massive threat.

And by "stalemate" I mean "neither side eradicates the other", although if a blockade was established, there's some chance that orbital bombardments could work. I'm not sure.

[setzer777]

Actually, that's another issue that bothers me about SC, I never got a firm handle on how big the Zerg were. Were they from a previously-unexplored-part-of-space, now discovering the storyline races? The Protoss were aware of them, and were glassing planets in response, but I was never sure who had the upper hand pre-SC...I mean, sometimes they talk like the Protoss had nearly wiped them out (otherwise, acting like Tassadar went so wrong doesn't make sense over one planet) but on the other hand, they're still this massive threat.

And by "stalemate" I mean "neither side eradicates the other", although if a blockade was established, there's some chance that orbital bombardments could work. I'm not sure.

We never get firm numbers, but I remember that it took the Zerg sixty years to reach the Koprulu sector from Zerus (after their scouts discovered the Terran worlds). I'm not sure they had large holdings though - the impression I got was that the hive depleted a planet of resources (and assimilated any powerful species) and then left it, with most of the swarm residing in deep space (which seems to indicate that they have either supernatural "fuel" efficiency for their metabolisms (since they go so long without oxygen or food sources) or they can draw on solar power or some other fuel source readily available in space.

With regards to the failure of Tassadar - remember that it was the Conclave assuming the importance of that, and they were shown to be extremely misguided when it came to judging the military situation against the Zerg (such as thinking that they were winning the war against the Zerg when there were still enough Zerg on Aiur to overrun it *without* the Overmind's guidance). The manual states that the Overmind allowed Tassadar to glass the Terran worlds in order to judge Protoss tactics - implying that such eradication was little detriment to the Zerg.

[Sir_Elderberry]

That's interesting, as I got a different impression. I'd always seen the Zerg as actually filling a planet with Swarm-ness and then leaving it that way, in contrast to say, WH40K Tyranids, who drink a world dry and then leave. If most of the Swarm actually resides in deep space, only descending to ground level for raiding purposes, that does give the Borg some advantage, but then it also means that the Zerg would have more space experience.

[setzer777]

I know that they completely abandon Zerus after depleting it of resources, but I don't think we know what happens to the other worlds they come across. That could make a big difference. According to the Starcraft 2 website the Zerg number over ten billion on Char. If that's about average for a planet, and the Zerg occupied every planet they came across during the 60 year travel towards the Terrans, they could have a staggeringly large force.

Going by the brood listings in them manual the Swarm actually seems pretty small. Only a few broods have over a million, and the Tiamat brood, which is explicitly said to be the largest of all broods, only has 6.5 million Zerg. Given that Kerrigan controls over 10 billion Zerg on Char, the Swarm either grew a lot larger between Starcraft 1 and 2, or there are far more broods than the 12 identified in the manual.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Well, broods were tied to cerebrates, right? And the cerebrates are all dead now. Kerrigan may have decided "to hell with it" and just started growing more. (Although, really, considering how totally the Zerg dominate a biosphere, ten billion even seems a little low.)

[setzer777]

Well, broods were tied to cerebrates, right? And the cerebrates are all dead now. Kerrigan may have decided "to hell with it" and just started growing more. (Although, really, considering how totally the Zerg dominate a biosphere, ten billion even seems a little low.)

Yeah, but why would they intentionally limit their numbers so severely if they were capable of having so many? If you add together all of the brood sizes from the manual there are far less than even one billion Zerg. You can assume that those are just the twelve broods leading the attack on the Terrans and Protoss, and that in reality there were hundreds of Cerebrates* but if there were that many Cerebrates it seems unlikely that Kerrigan could so quickly wipe all of them out.


* Actually, since the largest of all broods is explicitly stated to be 6.5 million, it would take about 150 broods (assuming all were that size, when in reality some were as small as 6000 Zerg) for the entire Swarm to have a mere 1 billion Zerg. To equal the 10 billion Kerrigan has on Char alone would take 1500 Cerebrates with Tiamat-size broods. It just doesn't make any sense...

[Sir_Elderberry]

Why can't blizzard make SC canon as internally consistent as the Warcraft lore? Eh?

[SpazzyMcGee]

1)If the SC link is at all analogous to psychic powers in the Trek universe, then you're assuming the Borg have gone through an entire quadrant of the Galaxy without running into anything Betazoid-esque, Vulcan-esque, or any of a billion other psychic races in ST.

Incidentally, does anyone know how the other factions hunted down Kerrigan/the Overmind in canon?

2)Alright, let me put it right out there: Kerrigan can be killed. She's tough. She's psionically powerful. But she appears to be very, very, mortal, if not in the aging sense. While storyline and gameplay are separated, "killable" and "unkillable" is a very large line.

3)Oops. My bad. I've been on a DS9 kick lately. The episode I actually meant is "A Taste of Armageddon", where Kirk threatens to level an entire planet. According to Memory Alpha, it also happens in "Whom Gods Destroy". In either episode, the TOS-era Enterprise--a hundred years before the Borg are ever shown--apparently has the phaser capacity to kill everything on a planet. As the Borg have weaponry that is at least equal to the Federation when they're around, it seems likely that they would have this capability. It's not a special ability or secret weapon, it's just continual application of firepower they've been shown to have. And, as I said earlier, orbital bombardment would be enough, even if they don't annihilate the planet. In addition, in TNG "Descent", the Borg are first located because a colony has gone missing, and the area the Enterprise investigates is completely destroyed, hinting towards mass-destruction type capability.

Now you are making more sense. Ans sorry for the post delay. You and setzer777 seem to have gone off without me.

1) Again, just because they are similar doesn't mean they are the same thing. Psyonic powers and psychic powers have little to nothing in common besides they are tied to the classical idea of pseudo scientific psychic powers today on Earth. Even if they had the same exact traits I would still be iffy about saying they are the same thing, but the fact of the matter is they are VERY different within each respective cannon and thus there is little grounds to assume they are the same thing without simply creating our own cannon, which we can't do.

And as for tracking down Kerrigan or the Overmind, it was never done in the SC universe. I'll list the instances when the posiiton of either Kerrigan or the Overmind were known and how that knowledge was attained.
A) The Overmind went to Aiur, the Protoss homeworld. It was physically seen to do so.
B) Kerrigan was attacked on Char in the final mission of the Brood War expansion because she had just killed the fledgeling overmind there. Again, this was because she physically interacted with several factions while she was on Char, not because she was tracked down.
C) It is only fair to note that Zeratul, one of the most powerful psyonic beings there are besides the Overmind and maybe Kerrigan, accidentally located the overmind by, albeit vaguely, through the murder of one of the Zerg Cerebrates using his own psyonic powers. It also should be noted that the Overmind was able to locate where Aiur was through its contact with Zeratul.

Seeing as how psyonic in SC =/= psychic in ST as I argued already and that it takes significant psyonic power to kill and in in effect touch the Overmind's "mind" and that the Borg would obviously have no psyonic abillities it can be assumed that the Overmind and especially not Kerrigan given her lack of a need for cerebrates can be located via their psyonic control of the Zerg.

2) OK. I will conceed the point good sir. I was merely arguing that Kerrigan is not all that inferior to the Overmind "because she was formed". She is indeed mortal though not for any lack of badassery.

3)I read the plot for "A Taste of Armageddon". I remember an episode where Spock said after the Enterprise was cornered and in immenent danger destruction by an alien being/ship he said they had apparently lost the chess game. Kirk responded by saying it was more like poker and the proceeded in bluffing the being/ship into believieng their main deflector was capable of destroying them. The threat of wiping out all life on a planet in "A Taste of Armageddon" sounds a lot like another bluff, especially since such a power has never been demonstrated by the Federation or its enemies prior or after. "Whom Gods Destroy" seems to just mention Garth wanting to attack a planet. I can't find anything about purging an entire planets surface.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I'll admit that in "A Taste for Armageddon" it could be a bluff--actually, it seems very unlike the Federation to have standard orders for genocide. (The episode you're thinking of with the bluff is "The Corbomite Maneuver", btw)

[JTDC]

A little late to this thing, but then again, I just found out.

Zerg destroy the Borg. Here's why:

Let's ignore, for the current moment, assimilation, just Borg vs Zerg in a fight. Zerg destroy the Borg, utterly. The Borg cannot adapt to physical attacks like punches, knives, or bullets. They just can't. So they become slow, clumsy, highly vulnerable opponents. That's called "getting your ass kicked", in the parlance of our times.

Secondly, the odds of Borg being able to assimilate any Zerg is low. Given their speed and ferocity, as well as their unending tides, it's hard to tell me, with a straight face, that they will be able to perform many, if any, battlefield assimilations. So their other capability is now pretty much worthless. So we now have slow, clumsy, vulnerable, and unable to replenish their numbers.

This is Very Bad if you want to win a war.

Plus, let's look at their actual military capabilities. They either have or obtain quick immunity to any attack that the Federation leveled at them. They were able to quickly adapt and overcome any defense put up by the Federation. Their ships required concentrated, sustained fire to inflict enough damage to preclude quick and total repair in the event of damage. Every victory by them saw their numbers grow. And they couldn't make headway against the Federation, people who aren't smart enough to put shotguns on their ships knowing that Borg can't adapt to that. They were fighting the biggest tactical morons since WWI, and their progress was limited. How completely stupid would you have to be to lose with that kind of advantage, fighting an opponent who is too stupid to use a cheap, easy to make (they have replicators for chrissake), and superbly effective weapon against them? It boggles the mind and beggars the imagination to come up with an enemy so stupid as to not annihilate in those circumstances. No amount of Treknobabble can overcome this glaring idiocy.

Compare the Zerg. The Zerg fought against tactically and technologically advanced foes. And didn't get wiped out. They had a number of major victories, all things considered. The Borg? Yeah, they were forced to use time travel to attempt to win, and couldn't even get THAT right.

It's no contest, Trekkie fapping aside.

[setzer777]

I agree that the Borg are absolutely idiotic when it comes to tactics (hence losing to the Federation and their idiotic tactics). However, it's possible they could still beat the Zerg through sheer technological superiority. For example, if their ships are completely immune to Zerg attacks (not through adapting, just through vastly superior shields+armor), they could still mow over the Zerg (though if they use their strategy of only sending one cube at a time the Zerg might have time to spread).

On the other hand, I'm not sure the technology gap is that massive (when it comes to military might anyway). After all, Terrans have mobile buildings that can survive *direct hits* from tactical nukes, and the Zerg are able to penetrate their armor with ease. Also, Trek-universe ships seem particularly vulnerable to physical attacks (hence why ramming is so effective even though the energy yield of ramming would be far exceeded by the yield of torpedoes and phasers.)

[JTDC]

I agree that the Borg are absolutely idiotic when it comes to tactics (hence losing to the Federation and their idiotic tactics). However, it's possible they could still beat the Zerg through sheer technological superiority. For example, if their ships are completely immune to Zerg attacks (not through adapting, just through vastly superior shields+armor), they could still mow over the Zerg (though if they use their strategy of only sending one cube at a time the Zerg might have time to spread).

This is a big, big, big if. Given that the Zerg have no problems cutting through tank armor when they so need to, it's hard to make that claim.

On the other hand, I'm not sure the technology gap is that massive (when it comes to military might anyway). After all, Terrans have mobile buildings that can survive *direct hits* from tactical nukes, and the Zerg are able to penetrate their armor with ease. Also, Trek-universe ships seem particularly vulnerable to physical attacks (hence why ramming is so effective even though the energy yield of ramming would be far exceeded by the yield of torpedoes and phasers.)

This. The Zerg frequently rend through even heavy armor to get at that tasty Terran inside, and Trek shields suck balls at physical impactors (which begs the question as to why no one has a mass driver weapon). Hell, even if a Borg cube couldn't get penetrated by the Zerg, they'd so something completely retarded like beaming their population down onto a planet to fight the Zerg, and then get wiped.

Trek is fun to watch, just as long as there isn't a war going on between any two sides. Then it's just painful to watch the ineptitude. Klingons use Batleths in combat and live to talk about it. It's just absurd how stupid everyone acts in combat.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I really think we're overestimating the "trek shields can't deal with physical attacks" angle, here. I'll admit that canon is spotty on this, but considering that you can contain some pretty violent creatures with force fields, and the already-discussed necessity that a spacefaring race would have for deflecting meteorites--one of the major problems our spacecraft face today--I would be really surprised if Trek shielding can't take physical hits. I realize this leaves open many scenes in which it doesn't, like Data beating up a Borg drone by hand or ramming.

Fact is, when the Borg win, they win on Plot--their shields are just That Damn Awesome, their ship regeneration is just Too Cool, and their soldiers are just So Implacable. When the Borg lose, they lose on Plot--their ships have A Weak Point Picard Knows, they're vulnerable to Magic Computer Programs, something happens to Punch Through Their Shields. Even though the Federation is probably among the galaxy's foremost powers, it admittedly doesn't make sense that the Borg would lose to something they should be so used to fighting. In contrast, when the Zerg win, they win tactically, they win strategically, and they win in straight up combat, because they live in an RTS.

So it's an untenable position that the Borg could realistically win in a fair fight. If this was written, say, as a fanfic, the Borg might have a much better shot--they might be able to quickly reduce the fight to their forces going straight for Kerrigan, they might be able to adapt to whatever the Zerg throw at them. Or, they might be stupid, as they often are, unable to adapt, and get thrashed. But in the context of most hypothetical fights, I don't think it makes any sense to say that the Borg could actually fight the Zerg. Beat the Zerg...with luck. But they could never fight the Zerg.

There, I concede.

[JTDC]

I'll admit that in "A Taste for Armageddon" it could be a bluff--actually, it seems very unlike the Federation to have standard orders for genocide. (The episode you're thinking of with the bluff is "The Corbomite Maneuver", btw)

Except in the Dominion wars, and against the Borg. And Species 8472 or whatever they're called. You know, to save a few hundred of their own people. Genocide when it's convenient.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Haven't seen any Voyager and am only up to early-season-3 of DS9.

[SpazzyMcGee]

I'll admit that in "A Taste for Armageddon" it could be a bluff--actually, it seems very unlike the Federation to have standard orders for genocide. (The episode you're thinking of with the bluff is "The Corbomite Maneuver", btw)

Except in the Dominion wars, and against the Borg. And Species 8472 or whatever they're called. You know, to save a few hundred of their own people. Genocide when it's convenient.

I don't remember the Federation ever committing genocide. I need some examples.