Borg vs. Zerg

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ZAN
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby ZAN » Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:07 pm UTC

The Zerg, being a collection of wild animals who are connected to a cerebrate and in turn connected to the Hive, have a disadvantage when facing the Borg.

The Borg are a collection of races and technologies that all work under a single hivemind, whereas the Zerg are a single race with predictable and rather weak fighting abilities. Their only power lies in their ability to swarm with weak units.

The Borg would immediately recognize the weakness of the Zerg, and attempt to assimilate them to gain there ability to produce with incredible speed. They would isolate Cerebrates one by one, and assimilate them, thereby gaining control of the entire section of the Hive that was under the control of the Cerebrate in question. The easiest way would probably be to capture a zergling, and then send that zergling in amongst its own and use it to take over the Cerebrate. Once the vast majority of the Overmind's forces are taken from it, they can commence stealing the Overmind himself. All in all, it would be a rather easy race to assimilate.

The toss, however, would prove to be nearly impossible, because they have superior technology and incredible power.

Palaios
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Palaios » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:00 am UTC

Mmkay, first of all, let me say this: I have never seen an episode of Star Trek. None of it. I've played D&D with near fanatic fans of it though, who constantly make references that pass over my head. I know "It's dead, Jim" is not just a phrase muttered to one of the players in my campaign. Still, I've watched no chapters, seen scattered parts of the movie, and really never cared too much about it anyways.

On the other hand, I have played through both SC and SC: Brood Wars, and am emphatically waiting for SC:2. The Zerg remain to this day to be my favorite race to pick. I've also read the "Queen of Blades" book as well a collection of 4 novels set between 2 covers feature Starcraft (which I unfortunately forgot the title of). "Queen of Blades" reveals alot about the inner workings of the Zerg, and more than a couple of the sections within the other book detail how bad is dealing with the Zerg.

And then I find myself checking my favorite online comic, getting bored, then checking out its forums. And now we find outselves on this little beauty of a thread. Well...I could just go hog wild really. I could spout out a constant stream of fanboyish prattle about how the Zerg would outnumber, overwhelm, and generally kick the collective rears of the Borg.

But I'm not going to. It's already been done. This thread has had several, several, several serious posts comparing the two and pointing out strengths and weaknesses, ending with the same result: Zerg win. It doesn't matter whether the Overmind are in control or Kerrigan, they all agree it's the Zerg. On a side note, I think it'd be hella difficult to control Kerrigan, but that irrelevant. Of all the serious conversations thus far, most have been about how the Zerg would win. The most mentioned comment about why the Borg would win would be because they're cooler, or some such derived notion like that. Personally, I think that if a person were to enter this conversation with merely info they'd picked up off this thread, and this thread alone, they'd likely side with the Zerg.

A couple of things I'd like to point out now that that'd done with:
1) Kerrigan's change seemed to take a matter of weeks, maybe months. I don't know if that's important, but for those of you who feel like abusing some brain cells, figure that into your calucations.
2)The Zerg are not "being a collection of wild animals who are connected to a cerebrate and in turn connected to the Hive". It's an idea that gives them too much independence. They're more like drones in an ant colony (or folks working at an insurance company): mindless drones intend upon ordered task that when left with nothing to do for the moment simply stand at the side and fidget until a new task is given. They do not quarrel, they do not in-fight, they do nothing unless tasked with it. And they do it until either it is done, or they are.

But yeah, that's basically my opinion, which is relatively useless at the moment. This thread speaks more for the debate than I can...

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Xanthir » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:00 am UTC

Palaios wrote:2)The Zerg are not "being a collection of wild animals who are connected to a cerebrate and in turn connected to the Hive". It's an idea that gives them too much independence. They're more like drones in an ant colony (or folks working at an insurance company): mindless drones intend upon ordered task that when left with nothing to do for the moment simply stand at the side and fidget until a new task is given. They do not quarrel, they do not in-fight, they do nothing unless tasked with it. And they do it until either it is done, or they are.

This is blatantly incorrect, and I'm astonished that you would say this and claim to be a big fan of SC. Starcraft 1 featured Zeratul killing a Cerebrate, after which the Zerg that were under that Cerebrate's control went berserk and started attacking the other hives on the planet.

So no, they are not mindless drones. They *are* wild animals connected to the Hive through a cerebrate.
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Palaios
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Palaios » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:10 am UTC

Find an ant colony, kill the queen, and watch the little drones run around now that they don't have a voice in their head. Same principle. Cutting them off made them wild. They weren't wild to start with.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby The Reaper » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:12 am UTC

Palaios wrote:Find an ant colony, kill the queen, and watch the little drones run around now that they don't have a voice in their head. Same principle. Cutting them off made them wild. They weren't wild to start with.

Do some research on ants, and get back to us.

Ants are not telepathic.

o_o

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Palaios » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:30 am UTC

I wasn't being literal.

EDIT: Bleh, that's too short. To be more precise, I was using the metaphor because ants are an incredibly organized group of animals whole intent on the betterment (did I spell that right?) of the whole. I know they rely on scent and the such like that, but it's the same principle. When they lose leadership, they lose control.

And you folks need to loosen up a bit. :P

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Palaios
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Palaios » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:13 am UTC

Mmkay, so I was discussing this topic with my trekkie friends, and one of them mentioned that the Zerg only absorb biological components (a fact I am unable to dispute until I get a look at SC2), and that the borg remain at least 60% mechanical (or something like that, kinda distracted atm).

Just thought I'd throw out something for the borg supports to latch onto. If anyone felt like adding onto this thought, please do so, as I'm really really curious as to how folks would think this could play into the whole topic...

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Uriel » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:31 pm UTC

the replicators woul come and defeat both.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Zalzidrax » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:20 am UTC

Since both Zerg and Borg have a tendency to take things and incorporate in to their own structure, the answer is academic. Everyone else would lose.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:30 am UTC

People are saying the zerg outnumber and outmass the borg...
But you might not be taking into account the scale involved. ST writers didn't either.
Did you know a single borg cube outmasses the entire federation fleet about a hundred times over? Yeah.
Assuming the swarm contains about a trillion individuals a single borg cube also outmasses that.
And given the fact that the zerg's most potent weapons are chemical explosives the borg can probably take 100 to 1 odds in space battles.

Note: The zerg can't convert the entire biomass of a planet into zerglings because they need a large amount of (presumably photosynthetic) creep to sustain themselves.

Overall: Borg win.
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hunter killer
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:21 pm UTC

People are saying the zerg outnumber and outmass the borg...
But you might not be taking into account the scale involved. ST writers didn't either.
Did you know a single borg cube outmasses the entire federation fleet about a hundred times over? Yeah.
Assuming the swarm contains about a trillion individuals a single borg cube also outmasses that.
And given the fact that the zerg's most potent weapons are chemical explosives the borg can probably take 100 to 1 odds in space battles.


note that the borg only assimilated ONE quadrant (possibly a bit more), the zerg have EATEN several galaxies. so the zergs are still many MANY time out numbering the borg.
also, if the borgs use numbers, karrigan can use psionic storm and ensnare, then consume, ensnare, and psi some more.
and then... the zergs can mass BILLIONS of scourges, infested terrans, and just do a kamikaze run. Backed up by devourers and mutas, its gg for the borg.
last thing of note is that in starcraft 2, zergs can infest every terran building, EVERY SHIP, and the borg have to deal with acid. keep in mind that deflecter shields only deflect energy blasts and so acid would go right through. (DS9 The Jem'Hadar - the Odyssey was destroyed by a kamikaze run of a single Jem'Hadar fighter)

go acid spores. GG no re.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:41 pm UTC

hunter killer wrote:note that the borg only assimilated ONE quadrant (possibly a bit more), the zerg have EATEN several galaxies. so the zergs are still many MANY time out numbering the borg.
also, if the borgs use numbers, karrigan can use psionic storm and ensnare, then consume, ensnare, and psi some more.
and then... the zergs can mass BILLIONS of scourges, infested terrans, and just do a kamikaze run. Backed up by devourers and mutas, its gg for the borg.
last thing of note is that in starcraft 2, zergs can infest every terran building, EVERY SHIP, and the borg have to deal with acid. keep in mind that deflecter shields only deflect energy blasts and so acid would go right through.

WTF?
I'm not even going to dignify this with a response.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:57 am UTC

WTF?
I'm not even going to dignify this with a response.


ah, but by saying you will not respond it responding, so you have dignified it with a response. A poor response perhaps, but a response none the less.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:05 am UTC

The zerg have not consumed entire galaxies.

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hideki101
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hideki101 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:50 am UTC

I agree that the Zerg have not devoured galaxies, probably merely most of the Kourplu(dammit, how do you spell that) Sector, But the thing about the Zerg is that they convert the entire biomass of the victim planet to a grey-purple creep. A single Borg cube is about three kilometers on a side. I would say that each planet the Zerg gain would help them in the battle, but in this case, I think that the Borg may have a mass advantage, but a single cube would not be able to take out a Zerg infested planet.

In an earlier post I discussed the differences in battle styles too. Sure a Borg cube can take on a relatively decent sized federation fleet, but I wonder how it would fair against a force massing the same in dispersed little packets. The Zerg provide a target rich enemy, but a cube can target only as many as it has guns at a time, (not to mention that Zerg forces are much harder to hit because they are so much smaller than a federation warship) so some Zerg would get through. Now Starcraft gameplay mechanics are kinda out of scale compared to the lore (A Science vessel on the map is about the size of six or so zerglings while there's an installation mission based in one) But I would say that any Zerg unit that was able to get close will do some damage. This is mostly based on the nature of the Zerg air force. All of the aerial units utilize either a projectile or acid (suicide too, but that's something else). Many of the shielding mechanisms for Star Trek ships seem to repel mainly energy-based weapons, mostly using field modulation to cancel out the energy, like sending polarized light through a filter at a ninety degree angle off the polarization. I am fairly certain this setup is kind of suck against kinetic and chemical damage. Any glaive wurm that makes it through will bounce around causing damage, any scourge will deal massive damage, any acid spore hit from either strain will melt through the metal superstructure.

Also, would the Borg even feel that they would need to infest the Zerg? I mean, We've only seen them infest humanoid species before, and the Borg Hive mind seems to prefer humanoids. Why would they try to assimilate the zerg? Even if the Borg tried to assimilate the Zerg, I wrote something earlier in this thread:
Back on topic, I am really not sure whether assimilation would work on the Zerg. I read the wiki on it, and it seems that the Borg control minds through a neural transceiver. How would this work on the Overmind, a organism without any spine? Also, Strong immune systems (8472) seem to be able to defeat nanites. I really think that on a species whose evolutionary period is within a matter of years instead of millennia, can survive in space, and flourish on hostile planets, their immune systems would be up to the challenge of defeating assimilation. Zerg can't assimilate Borg due to the technology that permeates drone bodies. So that leaves conventional weaponry.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:12 pm UTC

Structural shields block matter as well and they can be used throughout the entire ship. So acid=no. Nukes are apparently ineffective and chemical explosives even more so, so kinetic energy can be resisted fairly well (far more than can be thrown by mere muscles).
On to the number of targets thing: phasors are weird. Sometimes it seems like they can switch targets instantly, other times...

Also, Strong immune systems (8472) seem to be able to defeat nanites. I really think that on a species whose evolutionary period is within a matter of years instead of millennia, can survive in space, and flourish on hostile planets, their immune systems would be up to the challenge of defeating assimilation.

8472 were from fluid space. This somehow gave them superdense bodies with immune systems that destroyed literaly everything. They only thing they are vulnerable to is borg nanites (which were adapted from the voyager ones used to defeat 8472).
And the zerg don't use evolution in the literal meaning of the word. They use directed genetic modification. And evolving doesn't make something objectively better, it makes it more suited to it's environment. Take some similar sized carnivorous dinosaurs seperated by 200 million years and pit them against eachother. The more recent one won't be much more effective.

Writers in general use Holywood evolution and thus the bolded part is something they just don't get.
If it weren't for the fact that they were designed for combat then zergling vs. velociraptor would probably be a fair fight. And this enphasis on combat almost certainly came at the price of something.Maybe digestion abilities (makes sense as the creep can do it for them) or reproduction.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:34 pm UTC

GoC wrote:Structural shields block matter as well and they can be used throughout the entire ship. So acid=no. Nukes are apparently ineffective and chemical explosives even more so, so kinetic energy can be resisted fairly well (far more than can be thrown by mere muscles).


they don't use structural shields, they use deflector shields, which is the point I was trying to make.
from wikipedia: "Prolonged exposure to hazards weakens the shields and may eventually cause them to collapse." acid does not simply vanish when it hits, it sticks. devourers would probably melt through borg defenses very rapidly (: i want to see the borg adapt to a chemical reaction that eats through their armor...

also, can anyone provide a counter to the scourge? theres lots of them... and they can take out huge warships rapidly (terran bc's... protoss carriers.. is it too much of a stretch to say that they would seriously hurt the borg cubes?)

the zerg consumed more than just the Koprulu sector, when zeratul's mind connected with the overmind, he saw that the zerg were the creation and downfall of the xel'naga. the zerg killed the xel'naga, then in that instant, learned that the xel'naga had created a race previously call protoss, then flew all the way across the galaxy to consume them. On top of that, the xel'naga were capable of CREATING brand new species. and the zerg defeated them with little trouble. are some people saying the borg are more powerful than a race that had worldships, and created races?

had anybody thought that the zergs might be able to consume the borg?

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:50 pm UTC

hunter killer wrote:
GoC wrote:Structural shields block matter as well and they can be used throughout the entire ship. So acid=no. Nukes are apparently ineffective and chemical explosives even more so, so kinetic energy can be resisted fairly well (far more than can be thrown by mere muscles).


they don't use structural shields, they use deflector shields, which is the point I was trying to make.
from wikipedia: "Prolonged exposure to hazards weakens the shields and may eventually cause them to collapse." acid does not simply vanish when it hits, it sticks. devourers would probably melt through borg defenses very rapidly (: i want to see the borg adapt to a chemical reaction that eats through their armor...

...
Structural shields are deflector shields.
It also seems you don't know how acid works. It releases a highly reactive proton into the environment around it which then reacts with the substances it comes in contact with. If it's on shields then nothing happens as there's no matter to react with.

also, can anyone provide a counter to the scourge? theres lots of them... and they can take out huge warships rapidly (terran bc's... protoss carriers.. is it too much of a stretch to say that they would seriously hurt the borg cubes?)

Battlecruisers<Chemical explosives<<nuclear explosives<<Star Trek shields and armor
Nice simple pseudo-equation.

the zerg consumed more than just the Koprulu sector, when zeratul's mind connected with the overmind, he saw that the zerg were the creation and downfall of the xel'naga. the zerg killed the xel'naga, then in that instant, learned that the xel'naga had created a race previously call protoss, then flew all the way across the galaxy to consume them. On top of that, the xel'naga were capable of CREATING brand new species. and the zerg defeated them with little trouble. are some people saying the borg are more powerful than a race that had worldships, and created races?

Source on worldships please. Might I also suggest that the Xel'naga where uncreative morons? If I can think up 100 ways to stop the zerg using modern technology then the Xel'naga have no excuse.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:32 pm UTC

Battlecruisers<Chemical explosives<<nuclear explosives<<Star Trek shields and armor
Nice simple pseudo-equation.

your whole argument is that star trek shields are better than protoss shields, you have no reason to assume this.
i think that protoss shields are better, and scourges can kill protoss shields, so they can kill star trek shield.

Source on worldships please.


http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Xel%27naga
Involvement with the Zerg
3rd paragraph.

Might I also suggest that the Xel'naga where uncreative morons? If I can think up 100 ways to stop the zerg using modern technology then the Xel'naga have no excuse.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xel%27Naga#Xel.27Naga
under xel'naga, apperances.
straight form wikipedia, the xel'naga had weapons that destroyed all species except themselves, so the xel'naga were extremely creative, and might i add powerful?

i repeat, wouldn't the zerg be able to consume the borg?

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Turambar » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:46 pm UTC

Borg take over other creatures by mechanical means, using their little nanites to take over control of the brain. The Zerg use microbes/spores/whatever to do essentially the same thing and modify the creature's biology. I'd like to imagine a super-race where the two combine, but I think it's more likely that whichever was established first in a given specimen would probably be able to ward off the other's attempts to infest the body.

The Borg seem to like using large capital ships a lot, and the Zerg are, well, a swarm. We've known since the Spanish Armada that smaller, more numerous, more maneuverable ships will usually have the advantage. And the Zerg have more than proved how good they are at attrition.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hideki101 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:56 pm UTC

GoC wrote:
Also, Strong immune systems (8472) seem to be able to defeat nanites. I really think that on a species whose evolutionary period is within a matter of years instead of millennia, can survive in space, and flourish on hostile planets, their immune systems would be up to the challenge of defeating assimilation.

8472 were from fluid space. This somehow gave them superdense bodies with immune systems that destroyed literaly everything. They only thing they are vulnerable to is borg nanites (which were adapted from the voyager ones used to defeat 8472).
And the zerg don't use evolution in the literal meaning of the word. They use directed genetic modification. And evolving doesn't make something objectively better, it makes it more suited to it's environment. Take some similar sized carnivorous dinosaurs seperated by 200 million years and pit them against each other. The more recent one won't be much more effective.

Writers in general use Holywood evolution and thus the bolded part is something they just don't get.
If it weren't for the fact that they were designed for combat then zergling vs. velociraptor would probably be a fair fight. And this emphasis on combat almost certainly came at the price of something.Maybe digestion abilities (makes sense as the creep can do it for them) or reproduction.

I didn't mean that. I meant that the fact that the Zerg can thrive on many different worlds without adequate preparation for dangerous virii and microbes that terrans seem to have (note that we never see terrans without space suits) so their immune systems must have the flexibility to counter virtually anything thrown at them. Therefore I think that the Zerg could defeat a nanite infection
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:16 am UTC

I didn't mean that. I meant that the fact that the Zerg can thrive on many different worlds without adequate preparation for dangerous virii and microbes that terrans seem to have (note that we never see terrans without space suits) so their immune systems must have the flexibility to counter virtually anything thrown at them. Therefore I think that the Zerg could defeat a nanite infection


i would just like to add to this, the zerg can survive:
vacuums
intense temperatures (planet of char)
jumping to warp without any protection (at least all the air units can)
radiation (only the stronger units)

i'll add more when i think of them.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby MasaoL » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:54 am UTC

Ok, so Im not a SC expert, but i due know a lot of star trek. I was raised on it. Some thing are missing under Borg advantages. First it seems that Psionics are relatively useless. Troi from TNG could not read any of the borg. Not a one. This stand that they are immune on some level.

Two
the Borg are reliant on the Cybernetics. With out the Cyber bits the borg dies in almost all occasions that dont involve lots of medical science. Meaning a Borg under the control of the overmind/kerrigon (assuming they can get past the first part) wont last long. Side note a lost borg is an assimilation priority, also it seems that any borg not connected to the hive loses a lot of its knowledge ie picard did not come home and give the Federation transwarp, nano tech, regenerative ships, or a bleeding starchart.

Three
Borgs ships regen. They can function at full power with 75 percent damage. Their deflecter shields (are not defense shields Gene made a point of this) can hold at bay small masses allowing them to literally shove zerg sized objects out of the way when traveling at warp speeds (as something Gene made a point to cover knowing what a pea sized rock can do to modern metals) Picard made a point to let 20th century rockets hit Enterprises shields so that he could show his strength to a group of squabbling aliens. The shields took no damage. His matter/anti matter torpedos hit a borg cube directly and did little to no damage. It was later regenerated.


Defense shields are essentially wave dispersion devices made of very highly carged particles (lightning cage made of lightning, can you say fried zerg) A borg cube could plow through a field of zerg rush with little damage. Same goes for a Borg personal shield. The borg killed by a tommy gun sadly did not see it as a threat alow ing for an awesome scene.

Lastly Phasers can be set to a spread setting like a cone of death.

suffice it to say the zerg will not mantain any captured borg ship for long as they tend to self destruct or be located and retrieved. And the Borg will go to blowing up stars since it makes a more tactical move given there lack of ground combat skills (though on any front picard does lose many people)

BORG WIN

Im not going to mention the borg of voyager they made me cry

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:36 pm UTC

First it seems that Psionics are relatively useless. Troi from TNG could not read any of the borg. Not a one. This stand that they are immune on some level.


even though the borg are immune to any mind reading, i doute that they're immune to psionic storm.

the Borg are reliant on the Cybernetics. With out the Cyber bits the borg dies in almost all occasions that dont involve lots of medical science. Meaning a Borg under the control of the overmind/kerrigon (assuming they can get past the first part) wont last long.


if and when the zerg consume a borg, they would change the genetics of the borg so that it's not reliant on nanites, just like how they mutated kerrigan. and the borg would very likely gain a explosive ability and fight for the zerg as part of the brood.

Side note a lost borg is an assimilation priority, also it seems that any borg not connected to the hive loses a lot of its knowledge ie picard did not come home and give the Federation transwarp, nano tech, regenerative ships, or a bleeding starchart.


so what... a zergling can't read the mind of the cerebrate anyway, so if the borg assimilate a zergling, the zergling wouldn't have any knowledge of zerg technology, strategy, ect.

Borgs ships regen. They can function at full power with 75 percent damage. Their deflecter shields (are not defense shields Gene made a point of this) can hold at bay small masses allowing them to literally shove zerg sized objects out of the way when traveling at warp speeds (as something Gene made a point to cover knowing what a pea sized rock can do to modern metals) Picard made a point to let 20th century rockets hit Enterprises shields so that he could show his strength to a group of squabbling aliens. The shields took no damage. His matter/anti matter torpedos hit a borg cube directly and did little to no damage. It was later regenerated.


the zergs regen too... all zerg technology is biological based, so all the ships, buildings, and units regen, and they can fight until they lose all their limbs.

Defense shields are essentially wave dispersion devices made of very highly carged particles (lightning cage made of lightning, can you say fried zerg) A borg cube could plow through a field of zerg rush with little damage. Same goes for a Borg personal shield. The borg killed by a tommy gun sadly did not see it as a threat alow ing for an awesome scene.


so? the zergs have suicide units that can move at extremely high speeds, they explode on contact. last time i checked, lightning doesn't protect you against bombs.

Lastly Phasers can be set to a spread setting like a cone of death.


zergs can burrow and dodge underground.

suffice it to say the zerg will not mantain any captured borg ship for long as they tend to self destruct or be located and retrieved. And the Borg will go to blowing up stars since it makes a more tactical move given there lack of ground combat skills (though on any front picard does lose many people)


i agree you're not a starcraft expert. the zergs have superb air units too. (at least in the stories)

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:29 pm UTC

hunter killer wrote:even though the borg are immune to any mind reading, i doute that they're immune to psionic storm.

Truly terrifying that...
Almost as bad as a nuke!
Oh wait... Borg cubes laugh off nukes.

if and when the zerg consume a borg, they would change the genetics of the borg so that it's not reliant on nanites, just like how they mutated kerrigan. and the borg would very likely gain a explosive ability and fight for the zerg as part of the brood.

It took ages to change Kerrigan's genetics. They'd have a matter of seconds before the borg died in this case.

the zergs regen too... all zerg technology is biological based, so all the ships, buildings, and units regen, and they can fight until they lose all their limbs.

Of course that's irrelevant in this case as none will survive a single shot by a borg cube.

so? the zergs have suicide units that can move at extremely high speeds, they explode on contact. last time i checked, lightning doesn't protect you against bombs.

Lightning is a consequence of their shields. But not the most important one. The most important one is protection and deflection.

zergs can burrow and dodge underground.

The Enterprise sensors can detect a single creature anywhere on a planet within seconds. The borg certainly can too.

i agree you're not a starcraft expert. the zergs have superb air units too. (at least in the stories)

"Superb"? They're fleshy! Porus! Spongy! With a coating of Chitin on some places! A modern day F-22 could smoke a flight of mutalisks before they knew he was there and an Apache could go on a killing spree!
They're slow, die easily and have a really crap attack (speaking in real terms not game terms, mutalisks are the best air units in the game). Seriously, firing a small creature at someone? Using muscles? It's "bullets" would go slower than most planes.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:26 am UTC

Truly terrifying that...
Almost as bad as a nuke!
Oh wait... Borg cubes laugh off nukes.


well if you were referring to the nuke in the starcraft game, i have to inform you that you're sadly mistaken. if you had any understanding of starcraft, you would know that the nuke is much more powerful than the nuke as we know it. the power's more concentrated, and by the fact that it destroys all units in the area i would predict that it's about 100 times more powerful than the modern nuke, and capable of piecing any shields, but not very destructive in the sense that it's powers are very concentrated and does not affect a huge area.

assuming that a borg shield has the same power as a protoss shield, psionic storm would most likely drain to shields to about 30%

It took ages to change Kerrigan's genetics. They'd have a matter of seconds before the borg died in this case.


wtf, where did you get the idea that it took ages? it took about a month or so. if it had took ages, Jim would have been able to arrive with about 100 battlecrusers and rescue her.

why would they only have a matter of seconds? the mutation process was so powerful that even kerrigan could only telepathically ask for help. the borg would be unable to do anything until he became part of the brood.

Of course that's irrelevant in this case as none will survive a single shot by a borg cube.


your ignorance is frightening.

Lightning is a consequence of their shields. But not the most important one. The most important one is protection and deflection.


as i have stated previously, startrek shields do collapse eventrually with sufficient damage. the zergs can deal sufficent damage.

The Enterprise sensors can detect a single creature anywhere on a planet within seconds. The borg certainly can too.


we're talking about phasers here. of course if a zergling went up against a whole battleship the zergling would die. but the battle ship would be too pre-occupied with zerg air units to scan the zergling.

"Superb"? They're fleshy! Porus! Spongy! With a coating of Chitin on some places! A modern day F-22 could smoke a flight of mutalisks before they knew he was there and an Apache could go on a killing spree!


well, if we can agree that a wraith is better than the F-22, i think we can agree that the mutalisks would definitely win in this situation.

They're slow, die easily and have a really crap attack (speaking in real terms not game terms, mutalisks are the best air units in the game).


this is just idiotic. you realize that the mutalisks only appear slow because a game like starcraft can't really allow 3d flight simulations right? if you compare the speed of a wraith to a mutalisk, you'd realize how extremely fast the mutas can be.

Seriously, firing a small creature at someone? Using muscles? It's "bullets" would go slower than most planes.


err... no... the hydralisk alone has over 2000 muscles, each more powerful than any human muscle, so the zergs weaponry actually would go just a bit slower than a bullet.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:57 pm UTC

hunter killer wrote:well if you were referring to the nuke in the starcraft game, i have to inform you that you're sadly mistaken. if you had any understanding of starcraft, you would know that the nuke is much more powerful than the nuke as we know it. the power's more concentrated, and by the fact that it destroys all units in the area i would predict that it's about 100 times more powerful than the modern nuke, and capable of piecing any shields, but not very destructive in the sense that it's powers are very concentrated and does not affect a huge area.

I do but I'd like you to back up "Nuke more powerful than anything we know." because I don't remember anything about that in the games.
As for the whole "unconcentrated powers" things:
What happens is that this is a nuke detonated in the air, so while it seems there's no dropoff there actually is a fairly large one.

assuming that a borg shield has the same power as a protoss shield

Fail. Tha't the whole point of this thread! It's like stating: Assume the zerg can destroy shields with a single hit, then the zerg win!
Plus there's only one psionic storm in use on the zerg side.

wtf, where did you get the idea that it took ages? it took about a month or so. if it had took ages, Jim would have been able to arrive with about 100 battlecrusers and rescue her.

That is ages.

why would they only have a matter of seconds? the mutation process was so powerful that even kerrigan could only telepathically ask for help. the borg would be unable to do anything until he became part of the brood.

Because they die if their cyborg parts go offline? That happened in one of the episodes, they all died in about 3-6 seconds.

your ignorance is frightening.

Why am I wasting my time with you? :|

the zergs can deal sufficent damage.

That's what we disagree on. You'd need billions of tons of TNT equivalent explosive to do a dent. That's a lot of scourge.

we're talking about phasers here. of course if a zergling went up against a whole battleship the zergling would die. but the battle ship would be too pre-occupied with zerg air units to scan the zergling.

I was merely making a point that they can't hide.

well, if we can agree that a wraith is better than the F-22.

Not agree. They're supposed to be better but thanks to the developers caring nothing for accuracy and consistency and caring a lot about game balance, enjoyability and playability they suck terribly.

this is just idiotic. you realize that the mutalisks only appear slow because a game like starcraft can't really allow 3d flight simulations right? if you compare the speed of a wraith to a mutalisk, you'd realize how extremely fast the mutas can be.

Umm... I said I was speaking in real terms not game terms. Mutas are the fastest in the game but in outside the game wings simply can't move you fast enough. Plus mutalisks seem to care nothing for aerodynamics so their top speed is even more limited.

err... no... the hydralisk alone has over 2000 muscles, each more powerful than any human muscle, so the zergs weaponry actually would go just a bit slower than a bullet.

I saw it calculated once, using the optimum muscle package and some leverage. IIRC the absolute limit was about 150m/s but that's probably rather generous.
I can do the calculations myself if I could find the power, strength and maximum contraction speed of muscles.
Using human muscles (35N/cm2) I got a (intentionally very generous) figure of 30000J as the maximum energy a hydralisk can put into a projectile assuming it's just under elephant size and mostly muscle. Note: apparently humans don't use most of their strength due to the tendency to tear ligaments and break bones. We're actually very strong animals.
Maximum theoretical pigeon muscle power is 0.86 W/g (gets worse as you get bigger). A massive 200kg muscle with 172000W (sound ridiculous? it is) can fire a 50g bullet at 190m/s and a 1g bullet at 700m/s. So while muscles have excellent total energy they're not very good at using it to make things go fast due to the lack of a long barrel.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:05 pm UTC

The zerg cannot stand up to the borg in open combat.

There are two ways they could win

1) Design a plague that would kill all the borg. Heck, the overmind could probably create a psionic plague that would spread through the borg mind-link thing

2) Have the overmind (maybe even a cerebrate) get assimilated, and size control of the borg.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:12 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:The zerg cannot stand up to the borg in open combat.

There are two ways they could win

1) Design a plague that would kill all the borg. Heck, the overmind could probably create a psionic plague that would spread through the borg mind-link thing

2) Have the overmind (maybe even a cerebrate) get assimilated, and size control of the borg.

Even then 1 might not work due to the fact that borg don't go from cube to cube much.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

Fail. Tha't the whole point of this thread! It's like stating: Assume the zerg can destroy shields with a single hit, then the zerg win!


the zergs can't destroy protoss shields with one hit... well, can you find any evidence that the borg shields are stronger than protoss shields? because until you do for all we know they can be the same shields.

Because they die if their cyborg parts go offline? That happened in one of the episodes, they all died in about 3-6 seconds.


but the zerg mutation would be able to support the borg and make them "unaddicted" to nanites. plus, as soon as they have a creature's genes, it all goes into the spawning pool and they can morph them from larvae.

Why am I wasting my time with you? :|


can you prove that the borgs can kill the zergs with one hit?

That's what we disagree on. You'd need billions of tons of TNT equivalent explosive to do a dent. That's a lot of scourge.


so wait... 5 scourges can kill a huge battlecrusier, shouldn't they be worth more than just a bit of tnt?


I was merely making a point that they can't hide.


there's still the problem that at least i don't think the phaser penetrates the ground.

Not agree. They're supposed to be better but thanks to the developers caring nothing for accuracy and consistency and caring a lot about game balance, enjoyability and playability they suck terribly.


they're built at least a hundred years or so after the F-22, i think they're at least a bit better.

Umm... I said I was speaking in real terms not game terms. Mutas are the fastest in the game but in outside the game wings simply can't move you fast enough. Plus mutalisks seem to care nothing for aerodynamics so their top speed is even more limited.


by the mere fact that a battle is most likely to occur in space, i think aerodynamics don't count here. and the mutas can fly in space. i don't know how, but i know i've seen them do it, so there has to be another propulsion system. the wings are most likely leftovers from their species before mutated by the zerg.

So while muscles have excellent total energy they're not very good at using it to make things go fast due to the lack of a long barrel.


since the mutas' whole body is basically a barrel, and the hydras' whole huge hunchback to mouth is a barrel, i'd say that's a huge ass barrel.

What happens is that this is a nuke detonated in the air, so while it seems there's no dropoff there actually is a fairly large one.


i don't believe that. if the nuke was detonated in mid air would it still have the classical mushroom cloud shape? wouldn't it be more spherical?

and plus, a nuke detonated in mid-air accually has a larger blast radius, not smaller.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:30 pm UTC

There are two ways they could win

1) Design a plague that would kill all the borg. Heck, the overmind could probably create a psionic plague that would spread through the borg mind-link thing

2) Have the overmind (maybe even a cerebrate) get assimilated, and size control of the borg.


not that i like arguing with my own side, but just to make it clear, the overmind is dead, kerrigan rules the zergs now. but since kerrigan is more powerful than the overmind, she could probably do it.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

hunter killer wrote:the zergs can't destroy protoss shields with one hit... well, can you find any evidence that the borg shields are stronger than protoss shields? because until you do for all we know they can be the same shields.

Umm, nope. They look different so we can't assume their the same. Thus the burden of proof lies on you.

but the zerg mutation would be able to support the borg and make them "unaddicted" to nanites. plus, as soon as they have a creature's genes, it all goes into the spawning pool and they can morph them from larvae.

In 3 seconds? That's not physicaly possible.

can you prove that the borgs can kill the zergs with one hit?

They're organic. Phasors are used to slag planets.

so wait... 5 scourges can kill a huge battlecrusier, shouldn't they be worth more than just a bit of tnt?

That says more about the poor design of a battlecruiser.
You'd be surprised just how little our modern explosives improve on the yield of TNT.

there's still the problem that at least i don't think the phaser penetrates the ground.

Then they can just slag the planet.

they're built at least a hundred years or so after the F-22, i think they're at least a bit better.

You think.
But the fact that mutas can catch them and the fact that they engage at a range where they can be seen says otherwise.

by the mere fact that a battle is most likely to occur in space, i think aerodynamics don't count here. and the mutas can fly in space. i don't know how, but i know i've seen them do it, so there has to be another propulsion system. the wings are most likely leftovers from their species before mutated by the zerg.

If mutas can fly in space then we've got a teensy "too little information" problem. Most likely caused by writer laziness.

i don't believe that. if the nuke was detonated in mid air would it still have the classical mushroom cloud shape? wouldn't it be more spherical?

Beats me. But explosives simply don't to even damage at different ranges unless they're fancy spacetime warpers of some sort. These are explicetly nukes. Which do damage (like all sorts of explosives, from chemical to antimatter) proportional to the inverse square of the distance.

and plus, a nuke detonated in mid-air accually has a larger blast radius, not smaller.

... I've not idea what you're getting at here.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby MasaoL » Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:42 am UTC

Phasers can penetrate the ground of a planet.The Enterprise has used its phasers to drill several meters under the surface of a planet. So could a borg cube given that they are quit a bit stronger

The Photon torpedo is a 1 to 1 matter/antimatter explosion each warhead containing a max of 1.5kg each. The Borg have been able to sustain damage from more than 30 of these atomic annihilations as each federation ship at the Battle of Wolf 359 had at least 30 torpedoes on board.Rated explosion of on Torpedo is 95 megatons the largest recorded nuclear blast in RL is 50 megatons according to the Russians. The US measured it at 57 but its the Russians record. So, in light if the protos fail to sustain two nukes what makes you think the Zerg could live through 1 round of torpedoes.

Edit: the first bombs by the us where detonated in the air. Also having recently got the game ir ead that it say the nuke is detonated above the target.

Edit: rereading the above Zerg argument what makes you believe that the Borg assimilating the overmind would allow the overmind to continue to have FREE WILL TO FIGHT BACK WITH

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:35 pm UTC

You know, since a borg cube has organic things inside a zerg queen ought to be able to use spawn broodings on it....

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:07 pm UTC

In 3 seconds? That's not physicaly possible.


to gather genetic specimens, yes it is.
remember, we're not talking about taking 3 seconds to gather the specimen, we're talking about gathering the specimens before the nanites stop functioning.

That says more about the poor design of a battlecruiser.
You'd be surprised just how little our modern explosives improve on the yield of TNT.


still, the battlecrusier is the same size as a command center (a little smaller), so in todays terms about the size of pentagon.

If mutas can fly in space then we've got a teensy "too little information" problem. Most likely caused by writer laziness.


so? they can fly in space, that's irrefutable, and we're not arguing about who's the better writer, ST or SC. cause if we were i'd agree that SC plot writers really do suck.


oh and guys, if you look at starcraft2.com, they say that the yamato cannon is a focused beam of nuclear energy using electromagnetic fields. since i think we can all agree that the missle silo nukes are stronger than the yamato cannon, i think we can then all agree that the nuke is far more powerful than anything we have created so far.
The Photon torpedo is a 1 to 1 matter/antimatter explosion each warhead containing a max of 1.5kg each. The Borg have been able to sustain damage from more than 30 of these atomic annihilations as each federation ship at the Battle of Wolf 359 had at least 30 torpedoes on board.Rated explosion of on Torpedo is 95 megatons the largest recorded nuclear blast in RL is 50 megatons according to the Russians. The US measured it at 57 but its the Russians record. So, in light if the protos fail to sustain two nukes what makes you think the Zerg could live through 1 round of torpedoes.

using this argument i'd still say the nukes are 100 time more powerful than our nukes and 50 times more powerful than the
torpedoes. and this power is all concentrated at a relatively small location so it would probably destroy any borg ship in one hit.
which further means that the zerg and the borg would probably have the same defenses shields to health wise since they both fall prey to the same weapon.
if you would say that some borg ships might survive the nuke well then most zerg buildings would survive the nuke so the borg and the zerg still have the same footing shields to health wise.



i'm getting the feeling that you think the zergs are super weak because they are biological, this is not true. in one of the (movie thingys) in the terran campaign, a zergling was hit by a military jeep (it was too big to be run over) and the zergling must be about a third the size of a jeep, and bigger than both the military personnel inside it combined. the hydras must have been about the size of a van (but no direct footage for comparison was seen). and the marines in starcraft are accually so heavily armored that they're about 3 times the size (maybe 4) of a normal person (themselves with out the armor), and by the fact that a zergling can kill the marines in under 10 hits i'd say that the zerg can cut through solid metal with one slice/hit. the armored places are probably diamond hard.
i'm just trying to say the zerg are tougher than you give them credit for.
Last edited by hunter killer on Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:24 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

Umm, nope. They look different so we can't assume their the same. Thus the burden of proof lies on you.


the protoss shields are basically a force field woven with psionic powers. so think of it this way, a templar with power to make lightning with their mind has only 40 shields. the archon, which is basically a being of pure energy, has just 350 shields. so i think that the shields are very strong.
i mean seriously, a being of pure energy, that's gotta be some huge powers.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:30 pm UTC

by the way (3 posts in a row, i am so bored) have anyone read wulf's arguments? (end of 3rd page) i think they are very good and the second scenario is very plausible.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:23 pm UTC

hunter killer wrote:
In 3 seconds? That's not physicaly possible.


to gather genetic specimens, yes it is.

I thought we were talking about assimilating them? Borg genes are nothing special.

That says more about the poor design of a battlecruiser.
You'd be surprised just how little our modern explosives improve on the yield of TNT.


still, the battlecrusier is the same size as a command center (a little smaller), so in todays terms about the size of pentagon.

Then those were some pretty big scourge weren't they? Anyway, it's irrelevant because I just realized that your original "5 scourge kill a battlecruiser" argument used game mechanics.
So I'm unconvinced on the survivability of a battlecruiser when compared to a borg cube (which incedentally is over 1000 times the size, horray for the cube law!).

If mutas can fly in space then we've got a teensy "too little information" problem. Most likely caused by writer laziness.


so? they can fly in space, that's irrefutable, and we're not arguing about who's the better writer, ST or SC. cause if we were i'd agree that SC plot writers really do suck.

So, I'm saying there is too little information to argue about this point.

oh and guys, if you look at starcraft2.com, they say that the yamato cannon is a focused beam of nuclear energy using electromagnetic fields. since i think we can all agree that the missle silo nukes are stronger than the yamato cannon, i think we can then all agree that the nuke is far more powerful than anything we have created so far.

Non sequiter.

using this argument i'd still say the nukes are 100 time more powerful than our nukes and 50 times more powerful than the
torpedoes. and this power is all concentrated at a relatively small location so it would probably destroy any borg ship in one hit.
which further means that the zerg and the borg would probably have the same defenses shields to health wise since they both fall prey to the same weapon.
if you would say that some borg ships might survive the nuke well then most zerg buildings would survive the nuke so the borg and the zerg still have the same footing shields to health wise.

1. Why?
2. What?
3. Huh?
4. WTF?

i'm getting the feeling that you think the zergs are super weak because they are biological,

Bingo!
There's a reason us clever little humans decided to use metals and ceramics. It's because biological processes severely limit what can be made and require controled environments with certain external factors to survive.
in one of the (movie thingys) in the terran campaign, a zergling was hit by a military jeep (it was too big to be run over) and the zergling must be about a third the size of a jeep, and bigger than both the military personnel inside it combined. the hydras must have been about the size of a van (but no direct footage for comparison was seen). and the marines in starcraft are accually so heavily armored that they're about 3 times the size (maybe 4) of a normal person (themselves with out the armor)

Want scale? Then think for a few minutes just how big that cube is. Think in terms of ultralisks if it helps.

the fact that a zergling can kill the marines in under 10 hits

Game mechanics. Can't use that unless you want the battlecruisers to be shot down with machine guns and wraiths to move at 60mph.

i'd say that the zerg can cut through solid metal with one slice/hit. the armored places are probably diamond hard.

I'm a uni physics student. One of the rare ones who actually enjoy learning about it purely for the sake of learning. This fails. Hard.
A. Zerg cannot create diomand or anything similar due to the fact that no biological process can survive anythng near the temperatures and pressures required.
B. Zerglings do not have the mass or speed (and certainly not the strength) required to punch through some decent steel in any universe running on laws vaguely similar to ours. Rubber joints may be another matter.
C. Even assuming equivalent materials their claws would start to blunt pretty soon upon striking an equally hard material. They'd basically be trying kinetic penetrators rather than swords.

hunter killer wrote:the protoss shields are basically a force field woven with psionic powers. so think of it this way, a templar with power to make lightning with their mind has only 40 shields. the archon, which is basically a being of pure energy, has just 350 shields. so i think that the shields are very strong.
i mean seriously, a being of pure energy, that's gotta be some huge powers.

...
Writers love abusing terms they don't understand. "Being of pure energy" indeed. :x :evil:
Also, stop using game mechanics. They fail.

Note: I'm aware there is no glory in arguing with a 13 year old. I'm procrastinating physics homework and job applications.

Hunter Killer: If you've still got starcraft PM me for a game sometime.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:44 pm UTC

GoC wrote:A. Zerg cannot create diomand or anything similar due to the fact that no biological process can survive anythng near the temperatures and pressures required.


Why not? Diamond is just polyadamantane. Its a mass of carbon-carbon bonds, which biological processes are quite adept at manipulating.


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