Borg vs. Zerg

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GoC
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:43 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
GoC wrote:A. Zerg cannot create diomand or anything similar due to the fact that no biological process can survive anythng near the temperatures and pressures required.


Why not? Diamond is just polyadamantane. Its a mass of carbon-carbon bonds, which biological processes are quite adept at manipulating.

Because there is a massive difference between a giant covalent structure of diamond and the series of C's with H's around them.
The former requires immense temperatures and pressures as there is no enzyme even theoretically capable of existing that can add more carbon to the kind of structure diomand has.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:42 am UTC

GoC wrote:Because there is a massive difference between a giant covalent structure of diamond and the series of C's with H's around them.
The former requires immense temperatures and pressures as there is no enzyme even theoretically capable of existing that can add more carbon to the kind of structure diomand has.


Do you know what enzymes do?
Last edited by BlackSails on Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:33 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:19 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
GoC wrote:
Why not? Diamond is just polyadamantane. Its a mass of carbon-carbon bonds, which biological processes are quite adept at manipulating.

Because there is a massive difference between a giant covalent structure of diamond and the series of C's with H's around them.
The former requires immense temperatures and pressures as there is no enzyme even theoretically capable of existing that can add more carbon to the kind of structure diomand has.


Do you know what enzymes do?

Yes. I took A-level chemistry and biology.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:34 am UTC

GoC wrote:Yes. I took A-level chemistry and biology.


So on the basis of high school level biology and chemistry, you can prove that certain types of reactions cannot be accelerated by catalysts?

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:27 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
GoC wrote:Yes. I took A-level chemistry and biology.


So on the basis of high school level biology and chemistry, you can prove that certain types of reactions cannot be accelerated by catalysts?

No.
But I know that the standard enzyme methods for increasing bonding speed will fail in this case.
Especially as there's no reaction of this sort going on in the first place.
I'm almost 100% sure that the reaction is endothermic with an activation energy not significantly (in this case only something above 100% can be considered significant) different from the net energy change.

I had a nifty little book that listed the energy required to create various molecules, if only I could find it...
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:30 am UTC

GoC wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
GoC wrote:Yes. I took A-level chemistry and biology.


So on the basis of high school level biology and chemistry, you can prove that certain types of reactions cannot be accelerated by catalysts?

No.
But I know that the standard enzyme methods for increasing bonding speed will fail in this case.
Especially as there's no reaction of this sort going on in the first place.
I'm almost 100% sure that the reaction is endothermic with an activation energy not significantly (in this case only something above 100% can be considered significant) different from the net energy change.

I had a nifty little book that listed the energy required to create various molecules, if only I could find it...


Protein formation is absurdly endothermic, yet the ribosome has no problem catalyzing peptide polymerization.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:47 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
GoC wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
GoC wrote:Yes. I took A-level chemistry and biology.


So on the basis of high school level biology and chemistry, you can prove that certain types of reactions cannot be accelerated by catalysts?

No.
But I know that the standard enzyme methods for increasing bonding speed will fail in this case.
Especially as there's no reaction of this sort going on in the first place.
I'm almost 100% sure that the reaction is endothermic with an activation energy not significantly (in this case only something above 100% can be considered significant) different from the net energy change.

I had a nifty little book that listed the energy required to create various molecules, if only I could find it...


Protein formation is absurdly endothermic, yet the ribosome has no problem catalyzing peptide polymerization.

True, but the energy changes involved are a an order of magnitude apart.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:52 am UTC

Molar heat of formation of diamond: 1.9 kJ
Molar heat of formation of an average peptide bond: 13kJ

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Berengal » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:32 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:Molar heat of formation of diamond: 1.9 kJ
Molar heat of formation of an average peptide bond: 13kJ
Isn't that what he said?
GoC wrote:True, but the energy changes involved are a an order of magnitude apart.

:P
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:41 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:Molar heat of formation of diamond: 1.9 kJ
Molar heat of formation of an average peptide bond: 13kJ

Well, I was wrong. Knew I shouldn't have trusted my memory.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:09 pm UTC

eveything GoC said


you can't just shot down my arguments based on the fact that SC writers are vague. why don't we just say the zergs don't exsist because the writers didn't describe how the zergs were mutated?

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hideki101 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:37 pm UTC

hunter killer wrote:
eveything GoC said


you can't just shot down my arguments based on the fact that SC writers are vague. why don't we just say the zergs don't exsist because the writers didn't describe how the zergs were mutated?

On top of this, we could say this is a stupid argument in the first place, because we no virtually nothing about the Zerg except what we know from game mechanics. And that doesn't cut it, or we'll need to find Borg analogs to EVERYTHING the Zerg have.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:35 am UTC

Hrm. I'm a limited Star Trek fan--I've seen nearly all of TNG, but no Voyager, and quite the SC fan as well. I believe that, simply put, the Borg would win this battle, because their command structure is better suited to it.

From SC, we know that killing a cerebrate will "unleash" its subordinate Zerg. The Swarm was thrown into chaos when the Overmind died. Now, yes, the cerebrates were able to stabilize it, but it took a very long time, and Kerrigan was able to maintain some limited control over her own swarms. (Damn, I need to replay BW, I don't quite have this all sorted out in my head.) However, the point is: the Zerg have concentrated points of failure. Really big, targetable ones, with no way of hiding themselves--they're broadcasting psionic emissions, after all. The Borg could pop over to Betazed, assimilate, and probably be able to see it from half a quadrant away.

The Borg, however, are a collective. Yes, Borg Queen, etc. From what I can tell on Memory Alpha, she's died several times on screen, and they just make another. She's not a ruler of the Borg, the way Kerrigan rules the Zerg directly. She is the Borg. They think as one giant unit, all of their countless trillions, and she acts as the personification of that synchronization.

So let's imagine the Zerg begin infringing on Borg space, or vice versa. Maybe Q sets them up, the bastard. The Zerg will send over a swarm or two. Now, here's where I have to rely on some knowledge that I believe I picked up from the novels--the Zerg use giant carriers to move through hyperspace. These are giant spacefaring creatures that carry entire invasion forces. This creature is going to be wiped out in no time flat by the Borg. Even if mutalisks or scourge fly beside it--and I can't confirm that--it's difficult to communicate just how badass the Borg are in space. One--listening?--one Borg cube defeated pretty much the entire Federation.

"But wait!" I hear you say, "They had Picard, with his shield frequencies and such." Yes, but not only do the Zerg not have any form of shielding to begin with, the Borg really aren't going to need much. Shields are going to take care of Zerg attacks. Most of them are acid--which won't do shit if it's not reacting with something--or just kinetic energy weapons, which are frankly pretty easy to deal with. If you've got a ship going any appreciable speed in space, you can deal with that already. Meteorite impacts and such.

Lots of people say that the Borg may not prove so formidable against a swarm, rather than capital ships. I recommend you read about the Battle of Wolf 359. The cube there took on about forty capital ships, on its own, and pretty much sailed on by. It's not adapted for one-to-one fighting, exactly. Certainly, the Zerg have more than that, but even ignoring how absolutely loaded with phasers the Borg cube has an answer to any group of massed enemies: Photon torpedoes.

We can conclude that the Zerg invasion fleet would be pretty handily repelled. Even if they weren't shot down in space, they'd have to land on the planet, where they admittedly have a far better chance. At this point...they get an orbital bombardment.

So let's assume initial assimilation by the Zerg fails. The Borg immediately dispatch a cube or three to Zerg space. I think it's pretty much established that they possess space superiority--a legacy of being from a starship show instead of a ground RTS. So they get to a Zerg planet and beam down. And are probably instantly ravaged by Zerglings. Now, let's assume the Borg want to assimilate the Zerg somehow. They take a look at the Zerg, and will probably pick out the hierarchical command structure pretty easily.

This is where space superiority becomes paramount. The Borg can glass planets, true, but there's more to it than that. The Borg can blow up suns. (Note: I assume. In at least one episode, the Enterprise does this on accident--"Half a Life", for the curious.) Yes, this strategy did not serve the Protoss, but that's because they were unable to outpace their infection rates. The Zerg, as I said, just can't hold up to the Borg in space, and would be unlikely to make an escape. If they want to assimilate the Zerg, they'll shoot down the cerebrates and probably be able to capture some specimens at that point--and since every Zerg is born from the same eggs, I would assume that gives them the genetic machinery for the entire Swarm.

Now, they can't kill the cerebrates with Dark Templar powers, or so it would seem. What, however, do these powers actually entail? Some sort of psychic blockage, it would seem. So to actually execute the above tactic, the Borg would need to be able to block this regeneration. This is where we run into problems because of the hazy nature of how this ability works in Starcraft. If you literally vaporize the continent a cerebrate is on, what then? Presumably it reappears elsewhere. What about if you wipe the planet clean, no creep or anything? We don't know. Blow out the sun, starve them out? We don't know. So I admit this is a dubious method of combating the Zerg.

But the Zerg have another weakness. The Borg are just outright strong and numerous and relentless. The Zerg, however, are actually fairly weak individually--ten Zerglings aren't going to do anything, but ten Borg drones can be a problem. The Zerg combat philosophy, as it were, is based on the idea that you can continually throw things at the enemy until it runs out of resources. Which is intrinsically dependent on a network of capable hives. Again, here are nodes that are vital to the Zerg that don't have a Borg analogue, and form points of failure for the Swarm. The Collective, targeting these, would be able to decimate the Zerg from above, giving them a chance to get a free shot at the Cerebrates, and possibly even study them.

So, what's left for the Zerg? Well, I think they have a very good chance on-planet. If they already control the planet, they have plenty of pretty lethal troops to fight on the ground with. There's also the biggest element, the Borg Queen's opposite number: The Queen Bitch of the Universe, Sarah Kerrigan herself. How does she affect this? First of all, she actually hurts the Zerg far more than she helps. Barring some sort of obscene scheme--which, if this were a story, not a hypothetical battle, would definitely occur--she doesn't add much. She's there for her own personal power and she helps provide an Overmind-surrogate. This makes her the single biggest point of failure possible. And, unlike the cerebrates, she can't regenerate. If she dies, the Swarm is screwed. In fact, I heard Metzen say somewhere that, after BW, Kerrigan killed off all of the other cerebrates. If that's true, it's even easier for the Borg--the Zerg are literally one photon torpedo away from eating themselves. All she adds otherwise is that she's a fairly competent hero unit--but as we've said, if your enemy has a single point of failure, you find an orbit over it and you launch every single thing you have.

Basically, any war goes like this. The Zerg try and penetrate Borg space and would be repelled probably before landing on any planets. The Borg would aim for Kerrigan, the hive cluster, and possibly cerebrates. After obtaining orbital superiority most of these targets would be obliterated, at which point resistance would be, uh, what's the word? Really, the Borg are good. The Zerg just exist in a lower-tech universe-- most of them can't take a significantly weakened tactical nuke.

I love both of these guys, but I don't see the Zerg pulling this off. The Borg would destroy their hierarchy--which is, rather than collective, nearly fascist--and any useful biology would be extracted. I doubt they'd even use much of it, honestly. There's some interesting psionics but little else. If the Borg were willing to drop uniformity and use Zerg as ground troops, they'd improve a great deal. As it is, they're deadset on using pale humanoids for everything, which is a bit of a weakness, but then, they are the bad guys. Can't be too perfect.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:14 am UTC

Well, going by what we know about the zerg, they could use the defilers's dark swarm abilities to render their ships invulnerable to ranged attacks.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:21 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:Well, going by what we know about the zerg, they could use the defilers's dark swarm abilities to render their ships invulnerable to ranged attacks.


We have no indication that that works in space. In addition, splash damage is not affected by this ability (a siege tank still does some damage to units under a dark swarm), it only interferes with aiming, I believe. So photon torpedoes don't care.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hideki101 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:23 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Well, going by what we know about the zerg, they could use the defilers's dark swarm abilities to render their ships invulnerable to ranged attacks.


We have no indication that that works in space. In addition, splash damage is not affected by this ability (a siege tank still does some damage to units under a dark swarm), it only interferes with aiming, I believe. So photon torpedoes don't care.

So do scarabs, they can hit units under a swarm, so guided missiles will probably hit
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:07 am UTC

with no way of hiding themselves--they're broadcasting psionic emissions, after all. The Borg could pop over to Betazed, assimilate, and probably be able to see it from half a quadrant away.


this is just as ignorant as saying that anybody can intersect any subspace radio trasmisions.
not only do the borg have to first find the right frequency of the zerg psionic waves, they also have to adjust their own brain waves to recieve those psionic trasmisions. then, the have to learn the zerg language, cause a zergling can't speak english.


One--listening?--one Borg cube defeated pretty much the entire Federation.


so? the zerg destoried the protoss, the zerg, and the terrans, basically, if it's in their galaxy, they've killed it.

Shields are going to take care of Zerg attacks. Most of them are acid--which won't do shit if it's not reacting with something


of course, assuming the acids don't react with themselves to produce biological spores.

or just kinetic energy weapons, which are frankly pretty easy to deal with.


soo... how do you know exactly that kenetic energy is easy to deal with?

Now, let's assume the Borg want to assimilate the Zerg somehow


the borgs have never assimilated non-humanoid creatures.


you know what, everyone just assumes that a zerg would die in one hit. find the evidence that a zerg is so fragil except the fact they are biological. we can't compare the zerg to just animals, they have diffrent genetics. i have already proved the zergs are stronger than most people think. seriously, just read my previous posts.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:26 am UTC

this is just as ignorant as saying that anybody can intersect any subspace radio trasmisions.
not only do the borg have to first find the right frequency of the zerg psionic waves, they also have to adjust their own brain waves to recieve those psionic trasmisions. then, the have to learn the zerg language, cause a zergling can't speak english.


Subspace radio transmissions can be intercepted, though. Several episodes refer to Starfleet picking up Cardassian "chatter". And psionics are not sneaky things, at least in Trek--how many times has Troi been hit with Random Psychic Burst of the week, because they happened to fly past something emitting anything? It's not a finely-tuned thing. Trust me, if the UED could jam it, I have no doubt the Borg could at least track it.

And I didn't say they were going to use them to communicate. The point was to track down the control centers, which is the important part--the command structure of the Zerg is precisely what makes them vulnerable.

so? the zerg destoried the protoss, the zerg, and the terrans, basically, if it's in their galaxy, they've killed it.


Go play the first game again. Notice the part where the Zerg get their asses kicked? Notice that all the species you list as being "destroyed"....are still there? Notice how, in game mechanics at least, all of those factions are a fair fight for the Zerg? The only reason they're on top right now is because Kerrigan took advantage of internal divisions within her enemies, something the Borg don't have.

of course, assuming the acids don't react with themselves to produce biological spores.


What are you talking about? We're talking about an airtight shield that deflects everything. The acid is supposed to go up to it and...do what? Acid works by reacting, chemically, with stuff that isn't acid. If it reacts with itself...how the hell do they even hold onto it? It would instantly degrade.

soo... how do you know exactly that kenetic energy is easy to deal with?


Simple. Let's say you're building a spaceship, and you need it to be able to go Really Damn Fast. You're going to have to be able to deflect space debris--which space has a pretty decent amount of, this is a major problem for our current spacecraft. Any space-based civilization is going to have the ability to deal with things going very fast at their ship.
the borgs have never assimilated non-humanoid creatures.


Indeed. I doubt they'd bother, honestly, but it seemed like an interesting avenue to explore. The Zerg, for their part, do not assimilate technology--rendering the Borg equally useless to them.

you know what, everyone just assumes that a zerg would die in one hit. find the evidence that a zerg is so fragil except the fact they are biological.

It's the adversaries they face. A zergling goes down in a few shots from a weapon that strongly resembles modern weapons. In Star Trek, it's been consistently shown that if it doesn't have shields, a phaser will fuck it up hard. When your shields are down, your capital ship isn't going to take a shot from an enemy phaser--there's no way a single organism will. As I've talked about, the Zerg weapons and biology don't lend themselves to space combat, so they'd quickly lose space superiority.
we can't compare the zerg to just animals, they have diffrent genetics. i have already proved the zergs are stronger than most people think. seriously, just read my previous posts.

But they are just animals without the controlling influence of a psionic dictator. They're loaded with single points of failure. Take out these commanders--and remember, Chris Metzen, the guy who writes all of Blizzard's lore, has made statements saying that Kerrigan has actually gotten rid of the cerebrates, meaning that she is now the only thing holding them together. She doesn't even regenerate.

It's not that a Zerg ground force couldn't beat up the Borg. Tough as they are, I highly doubt the Borg could go toe-to-toe with the Zerg ground forces. It's that the Borg have no reason to even engage the Zerg ground forces.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:51 am UTC

Indeed. I doubt they'd bother, honestly, but it seemed like an interesting avenue to explore. The Zerg, for their part, do not assimilate technology--rendering the Borg equally useless to them.And I didn't say they were going to use them to communicate. The point was to track down the control centers, which is the important part--the command structure of the Zerg is precisely what makes them vulnerable.


ok, i'll give you that one, but the zerg would be able to track the borg just as easily if not easier through the same reasoning.

Go play the first game again. Notice the part where the Zerg get their asses kicked? Notice that all the species you list as being "destroyed"....are still there? Notice how, in game mechanics at least, all of those factions are a fair fight for the Zerg? The only reason they're on top right now is because Kerrigan took advantage of internal divisions within her enemies, something the Borg don't have.


i'm pretty sure that was only the scouts that had some problems.
and the reason all the races are still there is because kerrigan took 4 years to evolve the zerg (she got bored and decided to invent the "power overwhelming" cheat or something).

What are you talking about? We're talking about an airtight shield that deflects everything. The acid is supposed to go up to it and...do what? Acid works by reacting, chemically, with stuff that isn't acid. If it reacts with itself...how the hell do they even hold onto it? It would instantly degrade.


accually, there are quite a few things in nature that reacts with itself, hydrogen peroxide (i'm pretty sure) being one example. and there could be a catalyse within the devour/ what ever other unit to stop the acid/chemical from reacting within the body, or it might have to be activated by an enzyme which is mixed with the chemical only after it exits the body. with out anything from the SC writers, these are all better explainations than "the devour, which sometimes fights in space, spits an acid that react with metals, biological matter, and the protoss psionic shield', it sounds worse than my theory.

Simple. Let's say you're building a spaceship, and you need it to be able to go Really Damn Fast. You're going to have to be able to deflect space debris--which space has a pretty decent amount of, this is a major problem for our current spacecraft. Any space-based civilization is going to have the ability to deal with things going very fast at their ship.


accually, i've never seen a starship fly into heavy astroids in startrek, although i might be wrong. and after a starship go to warp, it enters subspace and can not interact with any astroids.

Indeed. I doubt they'd bother, honestly, but it seemed like an interesting avenue to explore. The Zerg, for their part, do not assimilate technology--rendering the Borg equally useless to them.


haven't you ever seen the infested command center? the zerg do consume/infest technology.

But they are just animals without the controlling influence of a psionic dictator.


they are animals yes, but they are not terrestrial animals. and just because a terrestrial animal gets killed by a shot gun doesn't mean the zerg have to be. again, they have diffrent genetics.

Kerrigan has actually gotten rid of the cerebrates, meaning that she is now the only thing holding them together. She doesn't even regenerate.


so? the collective (the ability to stay in a collective i should say) is the only thing holding the borg together. if the borg were freed from the collective, they'd pretty much act the same way the zerg would if the cerebrate were killed. and since kerrigan is the only thing holding the zerg together, i highly doubt the zerg would just hand her over.

It's not that a Zerg ground force couldn't beat up the Borg. Tough as they are, I highly doubt the Borg could go toe-to-toe with the Zerg ground forces. It's that the Borg have no reason to even engage the Zerg ground forces.


unless if the zerg overlord rush... i know it sounds pretty lame, but we've established that the zerg are more numerous than the borg, and the phasers can only fire so fast. not mentioning the mutas would block for the overlord if the need arises.


guys, let's finish this topic up. i have a sneaking suspision that when starcraft2 comes out, kerrigan's going to die and the zerg defeated.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:56 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
Well, going by what we know about the zerg, they could use the defilers's dark swarm abilities to render their ships invulnerable to ranged attacks.

We have no indication that that works in space. In addition, splash damage is not affected by this ability (a siege tank still does some damage to units under a dark swarm), it only interferes with aiming, I believe. So photon torpedoes don't care.
So do scarabs, they can hit units under a swarm, so guided missiles will probably hit


it could possibly interfere with the aiming mecanism (i'm not sure what it's called) of the starchip.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:17 am UTC

hunter killer wrote:ok, i'll give you that one, but the zerg would be able to track the borg just as easily if not easier through the same reasoning.

The point, however, is that the Borg have nothing interesting to track. The Borg (and, for that matter, the Zerg) aren't subtle, just malicious. You would basically turn on your Borg-detecting-thing and say "...look...Borg space." The Zerg are unique in having concentrated points to attack.
i'm pretty sure that was only the scouts that had some problems.
and the reason all the races are still there is because kerrigan took 4 years to evolve the zerg (she got bored and decided to invent the "power overwhelming" cheat or something).

What scouts? I seem to remember SC1 ending with a direct attack on the overmind itself, and it was defeated with a group of exiled Protoss and Raynor's splinter faction of Terrans.
accually, there are quite a few things in nature that reacts with itself, hydrogen peroxide (i'm pretty sure) being one example. and there could be a catalyse within the devour/ what ever other unit to stop the acid/chemical from reacting within the body, or it might have to be activated by an enzyme which is mixed with the chemical only after it exits the body. with out anything from the SC writers, these are all better explainations than "the devour, which sometimes fights in space, spits an acid that react with metals, biological matter, and the protoss psionic shield', it sounds worse than my theory.

But what are you proposing this chemical does upon reacting with itself? An acid does damage by reacting with the target material, but here there simply isn't any. All the shield has to do is divert the actually acid that's being flung at it, which I can explain below.

accually, i've never seen a starship fly into heavy astroids in startrek, although i might be wrong. and after a starship go to warp, it enters subspace and can not interact with any astroids.

I'm not talking about heavy asteroids, although see season 7 of TNG, "The Pegasus" for a very good example of flying, uh, into heavy asteroids. In reality, asteroid fields are not dense enough to cause that much problem. However, I'm talking about micrometeorites. These are very tiny pieces of debris that are quite common in space--as I said, they're a big problem even for our modern ships--and when you're going really fast, they've got a lot of kinetic energy to unload at you. (Or you've got the kinetic energy. Relativistic and such.) Warp drive is not what I necessarily referred to, although it should be noted that warp drive does not enable one to go through objects--see the aforementioned TNG episode for a device that does, in fact, do that. I don't recall any mentions in canon about being able to pass through things while in warp drive. I don't think "enters subspace" is the right term, either. Subspace is probably the least well-defined piece of technobabble in trek (and that is saying a LOT) but it is clear from some sources, notably TNG 6x05 "Schisms", that "going into subspace" is not the same thing as warp drive.

haven't you ever seen the infested command center? the zerg do consume/infest technology.

Yes, but they don't assimilate it. Let me explain. The Zerg might find and infest, say, a Borg ship--although the Borg would probably self-destruct it. But they would never build their own Borg ship. They consume technology, they don't use it. The Borg don't assimilate nonhumanoids and rely on technology; the Zerg don't assimilate technology and rely on nonhumanoids.

they are animals yes, but they are not terrestrial animals. and just because a terrestrial animal gets killed by a shot gun doesn't mean the zerg have to be. again, they have diffrent genetics.

Yeah, but genetics only go so far. When the Zerg are shown to be perfectly susceptible to weapons that aren't great leaps and bounds ahead of ours--I'm referring to the Terrans here, whose nukes are actually radically neutered compared to our own, due to the Korhal incident--you have to conclude that they'd have no way of dealing with the Borg's far more advanced tech.

so? the collective (the ability to stay in a collective i should say) is the only thing holding the borg together. if the borg were freed from the collective, they'd pretty much act the same way the zerg would if the cerebrate were killed. and since kerrigan is the only thing holding the zerg together, i highly doubt the zerg would just hand her over.

This is the crux of my argument, so I want to make it clear. You can't just go around freeing the Borg from the collective. If I watched Voyager I'd know waaay more about this, but I know of only one incident in which this happened, with Hugh from TNG "I, Borg". He became an individual basically by being isolated from the collective for a long time and exposed to the Power of Friendship--not something the Zerg can offer, and very time-consuming on a case-by-case basis. When sent back, his ship or subunit or whatever did, in fact, manifest individuality. (TNG, Descent) They actually became far more dangerous fighters--their main problem was a lack of direction, so an evil android enslaved them. The collective as a whole was unaffected, as they simply cauterized their metaphoric wound.

The Borg are inherently a collective. The Zerg, however, are inherently a bunch of very dangerous animals with a very strong mind at the center of it all. The Borg have no single point of weakness, there is no "router" you could shoot to bring the whole thing down. The Zerg, do. The entire war would hinge around Kerrigan being hidden--which, as psionics are trackable, she couldn't--and when found, her staying safe--and...did I already mention blowing up stars, glassing planets, etc?

unless if the zerg overlord rush... i know it sounds pretty lame, but we've established that the zerg are more numerous than the borg, and the phasers can only fire so fast. not mentioning the mutas would block for the overlord if the need arises.


I don't see the relevance of this. The Borg would lose on the ground. In space, however, they've got more than enough to shoot down the carriers full of ground troops and the accompanying air force--the air force that can be defeated by Valkyries firing rockets, let alone photon torpedoes or quantum torpedoes or whatever they're packing.

it could possibly interfere with the aiming mecanism (i'm not sure what it's called) of the starchip.

1) Defilers are ground troops.
2) The aiming mechanism is irrelevant. It's a small cloud and you're packing explosives that would let you take out targets bigger than the entire thing. You aim at the cloud and detonate when it enters. You don't actually have to aim at anything.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby hunter killer » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:50 am UTC

if you think i'm taking a long time replying, it's because i'm running through the zerg plot one more time (thank god for "there is no cow level"). give me a few days

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Blodhgarm14 » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:09 pm UTC

I don't know a whole lot about either, but couldn't the Zerg just "Spawn Broodling" the borg cubes? The broodling might not survive in space, but that would completely destroy the cube.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:19 pm UTC

Blodhgarm14 wrote:I don't know a whole lot about either, but couldn't the Zerg just "Spawn Broodling" the borg cubes? The broodling might not survive in space, but that would completely destroy the cube.


"Spawn broodling" might take out a tank. But a cube is the kind of thing that's equivalent to, what was it, thirty seven big ships?

You can't broodling a battlecruiser, notably.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Maybe » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:24 pm UTC

The Infected Terran Marines hint to me that it would just get VERY VERY BAD.

We presumably all know what the Infected CC looks like. Now make that a Borg Cube...
I can see a Queen infesting The 9, as well.



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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:27 pm UTC

Maybe wrote:The Infected Terran Marines hint to me that it would just get VERY VERY BAD.

We presumably all know what the Infected CC looks like. Now make that a Borg Cube...
I can see a Queen infesting The 9, as well.



Kerrigan vs. 7 wat.

How infection works is not well-articulated in SC lore. I mean, infested terrans are made by only after a major piece of infrastructure is taken--Borg ships tend to self-destruct long before you get that far, let alone considering that you'd have to nearly kill them. Which I still don't think the Zerg are capable of. It's notable that individual terran marines apparently can't be infested, or something. We frankly don't know.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby tirentu » Mon May 04, 2009 2:36 am UTC

Well, let's see how this game would play out.

n.die_Jaedong vs. [Borg]Queen [03/May/2379] 1set @OSL Ro36

Jaedong would have learned in practice against [Borg]Locutus that Queen tends to mind her own business until provoked, a vulnerable trait in a Starcraft player. With that in mind, Jaedong would assuredly go for a quick double expansion from 12hatch into 3hatch mutas. He would use his imba muta micro to clean up any of Queen's ground forces, while expanding once or twice more to gain a firm macro advantage. If and when Queen intervenes with larger vessels, Jaedong would be prepared. He would force intense micro of a cube with mutas and scourge, distracting Queen sufficiently to drop a large ultraling force. And we all know that the Borg have nothing on ultralisks.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby SpazzyMcGee » Tue May 05, 2009 12:58 am UTC

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but it is a BIG DEAL. The Borg cannot assimilate the Zerg!

The Borg require humanoids to replace their numbers. Zerg are nothing but uber-animals and thus no matter how many world the Borg take from the Zerg they will never gain a single drone. The Zerg on the other hand don't really need anything to propagate. They just plop down on any old piece of floating debris and multiply.

The reason that it took half of the Federation to take on one Borg cube is for every every Federation ship or world lost, the Borg collective became more numerous. Teleporting a single drone onto a starship meant the captain had to evacuate and self-destruct. The Borg cannot assimilate the Zerg thus their primary advantage is lost.

And I would say the Protoss are comparable technology wise to the Borg and the Zerg wiped the floor with the Protoss home planet last I checked.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue May 05, 2009 1:47 am UTC

SpazzyMcGee wrote:The Borg require humanoids to replace their numbers. Zerg are nothing but uber-animals and thus no matter how many world the Borg take from the Zerg they will never gain a single drone. The Zerg on the other hand much don't really need anything to propagate. They just plop down on any old piece of floating debris and multiply.

Oh, what's this? It's the baby Borg from "Q Who", their very first appearance. Huh.

The reason that it took half of the Federation to take on one Borg cube is for every every Federation ship or world lost, the Borg collective became more numerous. Teleporting a single drone onto a starship meant the captain had to evacuate and self-destruct. The Borg cannot assimilate the Zerg thus their primary advantage is lost.

No. No, this is pretty much not how that battle went. That Borg cube attacked one very small outpost near the Neutral Zone, and then made a bee-line straight for Earth. It didn't stop to assimilate. And it took nearly then entire Federation, and they didn't mount anything like a successful defense.

And drones get telported onto starships without the starship necessarily being blown up--actually, this happens in "Best of Both Worlds" and "Q Who". From what we saw, the cube just blew up the starships and continued on to greener pastures.

And I would say the Protoss are comparable technology wise to the Borg and the Zerg wiped the floor with the Protoss home planet last I checked.

Not really. Protoss are more like Starfleet, with the shielding and carriers. The Borg don't really have a direct analogue in the SC universe.

All of you guys are missing the fundamental crux of my argument, which is that despite the apparent similarities between the two hive minds, they are radically different. The Borg's ultimate weapon is decentralization. To defeat a Borg starship, you have to kill 78% of it, because no one part of it is vital. That means that to destroy the Borg collective, you have to destroy the Borg collective. The whole thing.

The Zerg, however, rely on extreme centralization. At the end of SC, it seems that they've actually been defeated because the Overmind was killed. BW retconned this a bit, revealing the individual cerebrates are capable of running things, but killing these points of failure still leaves the Zerg functionally helpless and killing each other. This might seem to have helped their situation--but according to Blizzard's creative director, Chris Metzen, between BW and SC2, Kerrigan kills every other cerebrate. She is the only psychic link holding that together, which means that the Borg have to take out ONE planet--these are people who pretty much cover a quarter of a galaxy, remember--and the rest of the Swarm collapses on itself. It's not about who can fire better space missiles, or who can assimilate who--the Borg are a tech-based race, so the Zerg won't be gaining much from them either, and they're willing to self-destruct to protect their advantages--it's about fundamental structural differences between the two.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Tue May 05, 2009 2:42 am UTC

Is this still going on? In The Die is Cast a single salvo from a fleet of 30 warships destroys 30% of a planet's surface. The average borg ship could have resisted that for ages. The zerg are many orders of magnitude behind in firepower.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby SpazzyMcGee » Tue May 05, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:Oh, what's this? It's the baby Borg from "Q Who", their very first appearance. Huh.

I don't remember that episode, but if my memory serves they never once mentioned the Borg producing a significant number drones instead of assimilating them. Every time I have heard the Borg talk about their numbers its "x billion from species y" and "w billion from species u". It sounds to me the Borg were only experimenting with infants rather than using them as a viable source of drones.

Sir_Elderberry wrote:No. No, this is pretty much not how that battle went. That Borg cube attacked one very small outpost near the Neutral Zone, and then made a bee-line straight for Earth. It didn't stop to assimilate. And it took nearly then entire Federation, and they didn't mount anything like a successful defense.

And drones get telported onto starships without the starship necessarily being blown up--actually, this happens in "Best of Both Worlds" and "Q Who". From what we saw, the cube just blew up the starships and continued on to greener pastures.

Like I said, my memory is a little fuzzy when it comes to TNG. However as you pointed out the Borg aren't about straight up battles, they are all about assimilation. Why waste perfectly good Borg cubes when you can just assimilate the enemy homeworld and create a billion more drones? This isn't an option against the Zerg swarm. No part of the Swarm can be assimilated.

Sir_Elderberry wrote:Protoss are more like Starfleet, with the shielding and carriers. The Borg don't really have a direct analogue in the SC universe.

I disagree. All ST technology is relatively the same. The Federation has shields, phasers, and torpedoes.The Borg has better shields, better phasers, and better torpedoes. I merely mentioned the Protoss to emphasize there is nothing new to Borg technology that the Zerg have not faced. As someone said earlier in the thread it is just a matter of scalling. There is no way for us to compare the power of Protoss armaments versus Borg armaments quantitatively thus we must do it qualitatively. Qualitatively the basis of Borg technology (shields, energy weapons, and teleportation) are all possessed by the Protoss who lost against the Zerg. I'm not saying this means a single mutalisk could take out a cube or anything, I'm just saying the Borg have nothing that is game altering technology wise.

Sir_Elderberry wrote:All of you guys are missing the fundamental crux of my argument, which is that despite the apparent similarities between the two hive minds, they are radically different. The Borg's ultimate weapon is decentralization. To defeat a Borg starship, you have to kill 78% of it, because no one part of it is vital. That means that to destroy the Borg collective, you have to destroy the Borg collective. The whole thing.

The Zerg, however, rely on extreme centralization. At the end of SC, it seems that they've actually been defeated because the Overmind was killed. BW retconned this a bit, revealing the individual cerebrates are capable of running things, but killing these points of failure still leaves the Zerg functionally helpless and killing each other. This might seem to have helped their situation--but according to Blizzard's creative director, Chris Metzen, between BW and SC2, Kerrigan kills every other cerebrate. She is the only psychic link holding that together, which means that the Borg have to take out ONE planet--these are people who pretty much cover a quarter of a galaxy, remember--and the rest of the Swarm collapses on itself. It's not about who can fire better space missiles, or who can assimilate who--the Borg are a tech-based race, so the Zerg won't be gaining much from them either, and they're willing to self-destruct to protect their advantages--it's about fundamental structural differences between the two.

1) The Borg are centralized to an extent. I believe it is called their Slipstream Nexus or some such, in the Delta quadrant. In the finally of Voyager the Borg were pretty much decapitated by taking out the Nexus. Though it is true that this was done with a virus of sorts which the Zerg could not produce, destruction is destruction. Should the Zerg mount a large enough attack to destroy the Nexus the entire collective would become independent units spread thinly across the cosmos.

2) The Zerg swarm is centralized in that it is controlled by one person, yes. However that person is not centralized spatially. Even IF the Borg target Kerrigan specifically AND find her she could just slip away to the other side of the sector through a wormhole. And keep in mind Kerrigan can create new cerebrates at will. She could have an entire chain of command should she need it (ego permitting).

Spatially the Borg are MORE centralized than the Zerg because the Borg nexus is not mobile. Command wise the Zerg are more centralized because although the Borg have queens that if taken out cause caos, the Borg are less dependent on said queens than the Zerg are on Kerrigan. Should the Borg take out Kerrigan the war would for all intensive purposes indeed come to an end. However it is a BIG universe so taking out ONE person in it is a big IF and hardly something we should rely all our predictions on. Additionally the Nexus is far more vulnerable than Kerrigan because once found it cannot move to a new location. Mobility is key when you have an infinitly large playing field.

Game ending blows aside, in a war of attrition fought battle by battle between the Zerg and the Borg the Zerg would win. For example, lets say in some battle the Borg win but lose 10 million drones and the Zerg loose 50 million. Those lost Drones cannot be replaced, but just a star system away millions of additional Zerg are being spawned to finish of the remaining Borg.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue May 05, 2009 3:27 am UTC

...Alright, I'm going to admit those are good--not unanswerable--but good points. The Borg aren't, however, "all about assimilation"--it's not for nothing that they just run right through most of Starfleet.

I'm also going to contest the assertion that the Protoss are all that comparable to the Borg. Several reasons:
-Transporter tech is far more versatile than Protoss teleportation. Protoss teleportation is "in a few minutes, I can have a vehicle right here". Star Trek transportation is "in a few seconds, I can have an army down here. Or I can steal some whales."
-Protoss shields lack the defining element of Borg shields--adaptation.

Now, let's move on to the centralization point. Kerrigan is more mobile than the Borg, yes. However, I've always said the defining point in this combat is space superiority. The Borg have no use for planets, and unless they adapt themselves to assimilate Zerg, no use for the living things below. Better for them to simply glass the planet from orbit--a skill the Zerg don't have. The Borg are comfortable living in the vastness of space, burning and looting everything they see. The Zerg are not. They need planets for biomass and breeding ground. So while Kerrigan may be able to run, she's ultimately at a disadvantage because the Zerg can beat the hell out of the Borg--on the ground. The Borg know that. They won't engage on the ground, they'll stay in space, where they have their torpedoes and phasers and adaptive shielding.

Here, we've started to run up against a problem, in that I've never seen any Voyager. I suppose when it comes down to it, I ran into someone with more SC and ST knowledge than me. Kudos.

(Of course, the far more terrifying possibility is "I am Kerrigan of Borg. All that you know is at an end. I'm pretty much the Borg Queen Bitch of the Universe.")
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Tue May 05, 2009 3:43 am UTC

SpazzyMcGee: What are the zerg going to do about space battles? That's what's important. If the borg control space then everything else is irrelevant.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby SpazzyMcGee » Tue May 05, 2009 4:03 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:The Borg aren't, however, "all about assimilation"--it's not for nothing that they just run right through most of Starfleet.

The futility of arguing the wattage of weapons from different fictional universes aside, I have to agree with you that I can't get rid of the feeling Borg technology is on steroids.

Sir_Elderberry wrote:I'm also going to contest the assertion that the Protoss are all that comparable to the Borg. Several reasons:
-Transporter tech is far more versatile than Protoss teleportation. Protoss teleportation is "in a few minutes, I can have a vehicle right here". Star Trek transportation is "in a few seconds, I can have an army down here. Or I can steal some whales."
-Protoss shields lack the defining element of Borg shields--adaptation.

Well actually this can be argued either way. Entire armies have never been teleported all at once in the ST universe. However the Protoss do it all the time with their warping. I will admit the ST and the Borg have the upper hand when it comes to the versatility of teleporting relatively small numbers of drones at a moments notice. However I can't for the life of me see how that would come into play against the Zerg. The Zerg have no ships to be boarded which is what Borg teleportation is all about.

As for the adaptability of Borg shields, I don't really see how that would come into play either. Now listen, being a physics major and knowing full well how much BS the science behind ST is, it physically hurts me to make this argument; but the adaptability of Borg shields only really offers an advantage when you are using photon based weaponry due to the sci-fi mythos of canceling out waves. Altering the "phase variance" or whatever they say would only matter in a battle with phasers or something else based on waves. Physical attacks like a couple thousand Zerg scourges detonating against a Borg cube is bound to do damage.

And back to centralization. The Zerg aren't bound to planets. Sure it is helpful to infest worlds, a lot of biomass can be gained from it. However we have seen many times the Zerg can multiply on any piece of debris floating through space. It can be seen on all the orbital platform levels in SC. Once the biomass of a planet has been consumed the Zerg can move on, defeating any planetary vulnerability. And Zerg can hold their own in space just as they can the ground as is evident in SC. Attack, infest, consume, move on, repeat. Following this tactic the Zerg have an virtually unlimited supply of biomass to produce more Zerg bringing us back to the point that the Borg cannot replace their ranks.

Sir_Elderberry wrote:(Of course, the far more terrifying possibility is "I am Kerrigan of Borg. All that you know is at an end. I'm pretty much the Borg Queen Bitch of the Universe.")

Or how about "I am Kerrigan of Borg. I'm pretty much the Borg Queen Bitch of the Universe. Resistance is futile." :mrgreen:

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby SpazzyMcGee » Tue May 05, 2009 4:06 am UTC

GoC: The Zerg fight space battles. They kick the ass of every other race's fleet in SC. In the last mission of SC:BW Kerrigan was outnumbered, cornered, and surrounded by three fleets and yet she not only beat them, she chased them down and slaughtered them to the last man.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Tue May 05, 2009 5:10 am UTC

I just caught a few minutes of ST on tv.

The borg's most powerful weapon has a yield measured in tons. Not kiltons, or megatons, but plain old tons of TNT.

That is pretty sad.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby OOPMan » Tue May 05, 2009 10:30 am UTC

Ah well, no one could ever accuse Television of being particularly literate now could they?
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Tue May 05, 2009 11:28 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:I just caught a few minutes of ST on tv.

The borg's most powerful weapon has a yield measured in tons. Not kiltons, or megatons, but plain old tons of TNT.

That is pretty sad.

Tons? Sure it wasn't isotons? Anyway, given the firepower displayed in The Die is Cast that was likely tons of energy equivalent.

SpazzyMcGee: We don't know how they did that. The only assumptions that makes sense are mass mind control, overwhelming stupidity or that the terrans are actually pretty weak.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue May 05, 2009 4:28 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:I just caught a few minutes of ST on tv.

The borg's most powerful weapon has a yield measured in tons. Not kiltons, or megatons, but plain old tons of TNT.

That is pretty sad.

Did they actually say "tons of TNT"? I'd want to see that line and its context. "Tons of antimatter" would be a more sensible interpretation. Even then, I think this ought to be chalked up to Trek's not-always-fantastic writers being inconsistent.
GoC wrote:SpazzyMcGee: We don't know how they did that. The only assumptions that makes sense are mass mind control, overwhelming stupidity or that the terrans are actually pretty weak.

Yeah, we actually do know. You play that mission. It doesn't qualify as a "space" battle, though, because it took place on a station--notice how you're fighting against marines on foot.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby GoC » Tue May 05, 2009 4:35 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:Yeah, we actually do know. You play that mission. It doesn't qualify as a "space" battle, though, because it took place on a station--notice how you're fighting against marines on foot.

Wait... You're bringing game mechanics into this?!
In that case 8 marines take on a battlecruiser. And they're probably 10,000km tall. Each.
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