Borg vs. Zerg

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby setzer777 » Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:57 pm UTC

I'm not sure it would be a stalemate in the first scenario. That would also depend on travel speed - if transwarp is significantly faster than Zerg warp rifts, they could wipe out (or blockade) all the Zerg planets before they spread too far.

Of course most of this is going simply by technology and assuming both sides are fighting smart. But given the Borg's attitude of always sending the absolute minimum force they think will do the job (and their overconfidence in judging that), I imagine they would underestimate the Zerg at first (especially if they didn't sense the psychic force directing them) and effectively give them lots of time to spread throughout the galaxy.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:18 pm UTC

Actually, that's another issue that bothers me about SC, I never got a firm handle on how big the Zerg were. Were they from a previously-unexplored-part-of-space, now discovering the storyline races? The Protoss were aware of them, and were glassing planets in response, but I was never sure who had the upper hand pre-SC...I mean, sometimes they talk like the Protoss had nearly wiped them out (otherwise, acting like Tassadar went so wrong doesn't make sense over one planet) but on the other hand, they're still this massive threat.

And by "stalemate" I mean "neither side eradicates the other", although if a blockade was established, there's some chance that orbital bombardments could work. I'm not sure.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby setzer777 » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:14 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:Actually, that's another issue that bothers me about SC, I never got a firm handle on how big the Zerg were. Were they from a previously-unexplored-part-of-space, now discovering the storyline races? The Protoss were aware of them, and were glassing planets in response, but I was never sure who had the upper hand pre-SC...I mean, sometimes they talk like the Protoss had nearly wiped them out (otherwise, acting like Tassadar went so wrong doesn't make sense over one planet) but on the other hand, they're still this massive threat.

And by "stalemate" I mean "neither side eradicates the other", although if a blockade was established, there's some chance that orbital bombardments could work. I'm not sure.


We never get firm numbers, but I remember that it took the Zerg sixty years to reach the Koprulu sector from Zerus (after their scouts discovered the Terran worlds). I'm not sure they had large holdings though - the impression I got was that the hive depleted a planet of resources (and assimilated any powerful species) and then left it, with most of the swarm residing in deep space (which seems to indicate that they have either supernatural "fuel" efficiency for their metabolisms (since they go so long without oxygen or food sources) or they can draw on solar power or some other fuel source readily available in space.

With regards to the failure of Tassadar - remember that it was the Conclave assuming the importance of that, and they were shown to be extremely misguided when it came to judging the military situation against the Zerg (such as thinking that they were winning the war against the Zerg when there were still enough Zerg on Aiur to overrun it *without* the Overmind's guidance). The manual states that the Overmind allowed Tassadar to glass the Terran worlds in order to judge Protoss tactics - implying that such eradication was little detriment to the Zerg.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:18 pm UTC

That's interesting, as I got a different impression. I'd always seen the Zerg as actually filling a planet with Swarm-ness and then leaving it that way, in contrast to say, WH40K Tyranids, who drink a world dry and then leave. If most of the Swarm actually resides in deep space, only descending to ground level for raiding purposes, that does give the Borg some advantage, but then it also means that the Zerg would have more space experience.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby setzer777 » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:46 pm UTC

I know that they completely abandon Zerus after depleting it of resources, but I don't think we know what happens to the other worlds they come across. That could make a big difference. According to the Starcraft 2 website the Zerg number over ten billion on Char. If that's about average for a planet, and the Zerg occupied every planet they came across during the 60 year travel towards the Terrans, they could have a staggeringly large force.

Going by the brood listings in them manual the Swarm actually seems pretty small. Only a few broods have over a million, and the Tiamat brood, which is explicitly said to be the largest of all broods, only has 6.5 million Zerg. Given that Kerrigan controls over 10 billion Zerg on Char, the Swarm either grew a lot larger between Starcraft 1 and 2, or there are far more broods than the 12 identified in the manual.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:58 pm UTC

Well, broods were tied to cerebrates, right? And the cerebrates are all dead now. Kerrigan may have decided "to hell with it" and just started growing more. (Although, really, considering how totally the Zerg dominate a biosphere, ten billion even seems a little low.)
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby setzer777 » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:05 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:Well, broods were tied to cerebrates, right? And the cerebrates are all dead now. Kerrigan may have decided "to hell with it" and just started growing more. (Although, really, considering how totally the Zerg dominate a biosphere, ten billion even seems a little low.)


Yeah, but why would they intentionally limit their numbers so severely if they were capable of having so many? If you add together all of the brood sizes from the manual there are far less than even one billion Zerg. You can assume that those are just the twelve broods leading the attack on the Terrans and Protoss, and that in reality there were hundreds of Cerebrates* but if there were that many Cerebrates it seems unlikely that Kerrigan could so quickly wipe all of them out.


* Actually, since the largest of all broods is explicitly stated to be 6.5 million, it would take about 150 broods (assuming all were that size, when in reality some were as small as 6000 Zerg) for the entire Swarm to have a mere 1 billion Zerg. To equal the 10 billion Kerrigan has on Char alone would take 1500 Cerebrates with Tiamat-size broods. It just doesn't make any sense...
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:08 am UTC

Why can't blizzard make SC canon as internally consistent as the Warcraft lore? Eh?
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby SpazzyMcGee » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:42 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:1)If the SC link is at all analogous to psychic powers in the Trek universe, then you're assuming the Borg have gone through an entire quadrant of the Galaxy without running into anything Betazoid-esque, Vulcan-esque, or any of a billion other psychic races in ST.

Incidentally, does anyone know how the other factions hunted down Kerrigan/the Overmind in canon?

2)Alright, let me put it right out there: Kerrigan can be killed. She's tough. She's psionically powerful. But she appears to be very, very, mortal, if not in the aging sense. While storyline and gameplay are separated, "killable" and "unkillable" is a very large line.

3)Oops. My bad. I've been on a DS9 kick lately. The episode I actually meant is "A Taste of Armageddon", where Kirk threatens to level an entire planet. According to Memory Alpha, it also happens in "Whom Gods Destroy". In either episode, the TOS-era Enterprise--a hundred years before the Borg are ever shown--apparently has the phaser capacity to kill everything on a planet. As the Borg have weaponry that is at least equal to the Federation when they're around, it seems likely that they would have this capability. It's not a special ability or secret weapon, it's just continual application of firepower they've been shown to have. And, as I said earlier, orbital bombardment would be enough, even if they don't annihilate the planet. In addition, in TNG "Descent", the Borg are first located because a colony has gone missing, and the area the Enterprise investigates is completely destroyed, hinting towards mass-destruction type capability.

Now you are making more sense. Ans sorry for the post delay. You and setzer777 seem to have gone off without me.

1) Again, just because they are similar doesn't mean they are the same thing. Psyonic powers and psychic powers have little to nothing in common besides they are tied to the classical idea of pseudo scientific psychic powers today on Earth. Even if they had the same exact traits I would still be iffy about saying they are the same thing, but the fact of the matter is they are VERY different within each respective cannon and thus there is little grounds to assume they are the same thing without simply creating our own cannon, which we can't do.

And as for tracking down Kerrigan or the Overmind, it was never done in the SC universe. I'll list the instances when the posiiton of either Kerrigan or the Overmind were known and how that knowledge was attained.
A) The Overmind went to Aiur, the Protoss homeworld. It was physically seen to do so.
B) Kerrigan was attacked on Char in the final mission of the Brood War expansion because she had just killed the fledgeling overmind there. Again, this was because she physically interacted with several factions while she was on Char, not because she was tracked down.
C) It is only fair to note that Zeratul, one of the most powerful psyonic beings there are besides the Overmind and maybe Kerrigan, accidentally located the overmind by, albeit vaguely, through the murder of one of the Zerg Cerebrates using his own psyonic powers. It also should be noted that the Overmind was able to locate where Aiur was through its contact with Zeratul.

Seeing as how psyonic in SC =/= psychic in ST as I argued already and that it takes significant psyonic power to kill and in in effect touch the Overmind's "mind" and that the Borg would obviously have no psyonic abillities it can be assumed that the Overmind and especially not Kerrigan given her lack of a need for cerebrates can be located via their psyonic control of the Zerg.

2) OK. I will conceed the point good sir. I was merely arguing that Kerrigan is not all that inferior to the Overmind "because she was formed". She is indeed mortal though not for any lack of badassery.

3)I read the plot for "A Taste of Armageddon". I remember an episode where Spock said after the Enterprise was cornered and in immenent danger destruction by an alien being/ship he said they had apparently lost the chess game. Kirk responded by saying it was more like poker and the proceeded in bluffing the being/ship into believieng their main deflector was capable of destroying them. The threat of wiping out all life on a planet in "A Taste of Armageddon" sounds a lot like another bluff, especially since such a power has never been demonstrated by the Federation or its enemies prior or after. "Whom Gods Destroy" seems to just mention Garth wanting to attack a planet. I can't find anything about purging an entire planets surface.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:47 am UTC

I'll admit that in "A Taste for Armageddon" it could be a bluff--actually, it seems very unlike the Federation to have standard orders for genocide. (The episode you're thinking of with the bluff is "The Corbomite Maneuver", btw)
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby JTDC » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:28 pm UTC

A little late to this thing, but then again, I just found out.

Zerg destroy the Borg. Here's why:

Let's ignore, for the current moment, assimilation, just Borg vs Zerg in a fight. Zerg destroy the Borg, utterly. The Borg cannot adapt to physical attacks like punches, knives, or bullets. They just can't. So they become slow, clumsy, highly vulnerable opponents. That's called "getting your ass kicked", in the parlance of our times.

Secondly, the odds of Borg being able to assimilate any Zerg is low. Given their speed and ferocity, as well as their unending tides, it's hard to tell me, with a straight face, that they will be able to perform many, if any, battlefield assimilations. So their other capability is now pretty much worthless. So we now have slow, clumsy, vulnerable, and unable to replenish their numbers.

This is Very Bad if you want to win a war.

Plus, let's look at their actual military capabilities. They either have or obtain quick immunity to any attack that the Federation leveled at them. They were able to quickly adapt and overcome any defense put up by the Federation. Their ships required concentrated, sustained fire to inflict enough damage to preclude quick and total repair in the event of damage. Every victory by them saw their numbers grow. And they couldn't make headway against the Federation, people who aren't smart enough to put shotguns on their ships knowing that Borg can't adapt to that. They were fighting the biggest tactical morons since WWI, and their progress was limited. How completely stupid would you have to be to lose with that kind of advantage, fighting an opponent who is too stupid to use a cheap, easy to make (they have replicators for chrissake), and superbly effective weapon against them? It boggles the mind and beggars the imagination to come up with an enemy so stupid as to not annihilate in those circumstances. No amount of Treknobabble can overcome this glaring idiocy.

Compare the Zerg. The Zerg fought against tactically and technologically advanced foes. And didn't get wiped out. They had a number of major victories, all things considered. The Borg? Yeah, they were forced to use time travel to attempt to win, and couldn't even get THAT right.

It's no contest, Trekkie fapping aside.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby setzer777 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:38 pm UTC

I agree that the Borg are absolutely idiotic when it comes to tactics (hence losing to the Federation and their idiotic tactics). However, it's possible they could still beat the Zerg through sheer technological superiority. For example, if their ships are completely immune to Zerg attacks (not through adapting, just through vastly superior shields+armor), they could still mow over the Zerg (though if they use their strategy of only sending one cube at a time the Zerg might have time to spread).

On the other hand, I'm not sure the technology gap is that massive (when it comes to military might anyway). After all, Terrans have mobile buildings that can survive *direct hits* from tactical nukes, and the Zerg are able to penetrate their armor with ease. Also, Trek-universe ships seem particularly vulnerable to physical attacks (hence why ramming is so effective even though the energy yield of ramming would be far exceeded by the yield of torpedoes and phasers.)
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby JTDC » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:11 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:I agree that the Borg are absolutely idiotic when it comes to tactics (hence losing to the Federation and their idiotic tactics). However, it's possible they could still beat the Zerg through sheer technological superiority. For example, if their ships are completely immune to Zerg attacks (not through adapting, just through vastly superior shields+armor), they could still mow over the Zerg (though if they use their strategy of only sending one cube at a time the Zerg might have time to spread).

This is a big, big, big if. Given that the Zerg have no problems cutting through tank armor when they so need to, it's hard to make that claim.
On the other hand, I'm not sure the technology gap is that massive (when it comes to military might anyway). After all, Terrans have mobile buildings that can survive *direct hits* from tactical nukes, and the Zerg are able to penetrate their armor with ease. Also, Trek-universe ships seem particularly vulnerable to physical attacks (hence why ramming is so effective even though the energy yield of ramming would be far exceeded by the yield of torpedoes and phasers.)


This. The Zerg frequently rend through even heavy armor to get at that tasty Terran inside, and Trek shields suck balls at physical impactors (which begs the question as to why no one has a mass driver weapon). Hell, even if a Borg cube couldn't get penetrated by the Zerg, they'd so something completely retarded like beaming their population down onto a planet to fight the Zerg, and then get wiped.

Trek is fun to watch, just as long as there isn't a war going on between any two sides. Then it's just painful to watch the ineptitude. Klingons use Batleths in combat and live to talk about it. It's just absurd how stupid everyone acts in combat.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:34 pm UTC

I really think we're overestimating the "trek shields can't deal with physical attacks" angle, here. I'll admit that canon is spotty on this, but considering that you can contain some pretty violent creatures with force fields, and the already-discussed necessity that a spacefaring race would have for deflecting meteorites--one of the major problems our spacecraft face today--I would be really surprised if Trek shielding can't take physical hits. I realize this leaves open many scenes in which it doesn't, like Data beating up a Borg drone by hand or ramming.

Fact is, when the Borg win, they win on Plot--their shields are just That Damn Awesome, their ship regeneration is just Too Cool, and their soldiers are just So Implacable. When the Borg lose, they lose on Plot--their ships have A Weak Point Picard Knows, they're vulnerable to Magic Computer Programs, something happens to Punch Through Their Shields. Even though the Federation is probably among the galaxy's foremost powers, it admittedly doesn't make sense that the Borg would lose to something they should be so used to fighting. In contrast, when the Zerg win, they win tactically, they win strategically, and they win in straight up combat, because they live in an RTS.

So it's an untenable position that the Borg could realistically win in a fair fight. If this was written, say, as a fanfic, the Borg might have a much better shot--they might be able to quickly reduce the fight to their forces going straight for Kerrigan, they might be able to adapt to whatever the Zerg throw at them. Or, they might be stupid, as they often are, unable to adapt, and get thrashed. But in the context of most hypothetical fights, I don't think it makes any sense to say that the Borg could actually fight the Zerg. Beat the Zerg...with luck. But they could never fight the Zerg.

There, I concede.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby JTDC » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:28 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:I'll admit that in "A Taste for Armageddon" it could be a bluff--actually, it seems very unlike the Federation to have standard orders for genocide. (The episode you're thinking of with the bluff is "The Corbomite Maneuver", btw)



Except in the Dominion wars, and against the Borg. And Species 8472 or whatever they're called. You know, to save a few hundred of their own people. Genocide when it's convenient.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:21 am UTC

Haven't seen any Voyager and am only up to early-season-3 of DS9.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby SpazzyMcGee » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:28 am UTC

JTDC wrote:
Sir_Elderberry wrote:I'll admit that in "A Taste for Armageddon" it could be a bluff--actually, it seems very unlike the Federation to have standard orders for genocide. (The episode you're thinking of with the bluff is "The Corbomite Maneuver", btw)



Except in the Dominion wars, and against the Borg. And Species 8472 or whatever they're called. You know, to save a few hundred of their own people. Genocide when it's convenient.


I don't remember the Federation ever committing genocide. I need some examples.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby sikyon » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:48 am UTC

Even assuming that the borg cant' assimilate the zerg, the Borg still win hands down every time.

Defenses:

Borg can't adapt to physical attacks. There isn't actually any direct evidence of this, but anyhow lets assume it. Zerg space faring mutalisks would do nothing to a borg ship's armor. Borg cubes and spheres are capable of withstanding many consecutive photon torpedo hits - MANY such hits. Each photon torpedo packs about a 50-60 megaton punch, which is a few thousands of times more powerful than the bombs dropped in world war 2, which are perhaps as powerful as the tactical nuclear strikes terrans have at their disposal (based on blast sizes). And we all know how good tactical nukes are against zerg.

Offenses:

Borg have easy access to "mines" that have enough destructive power to reach across star systems. If they were uninterested in assimilation and were simply fighting a war of extermination.... Furthermore ground battles don't matter, the borg have no need to beam troops to a planet.

Numbers/logistics:

The Borg have greater numbers than the Zerg. They are in control of about 1/8th of the entire galaxy, with thousands of full borg worlds with many times more ships. Furthermore, when the UED attacked the sector with a simple fleet, Kerrigan was unable to call reinforcements from the rest of the galaxy if infact the zerg populated those worlds. This shows either the zerg lack sufficient numbers, or that those fleets were unable to reinforce her. In contrast, the Borg have transwarp drives, capable of transversing the galaxy in days. Their logistical capabilities are supreme, as a result.

Star Trek superweapons:

Star trek has an abundance of superweapons, which they don't use. They have metagenic weapons which can kill all life on a planet with days and become inert after a month, the genesis device is capable of annihilating entire worlds like the little doctor, and some civilian was able to scrounge up enough materials to build warp-speed probes which he used to destroy a number of suns and their star systems. The borg have assimilated federation personel and ships so likely have access to all of these technologies and many, many more. Sufficed to say, the death star pales in comparison to the destructive power of star trek.

Heck, consider transporters! Without shields, the borg could just use transporters to beam up borg forces - and never rematerialize them. Or beam objects into zerg forces. Or any other number of offensive capabilities transporters could be used for.

The borg are just too numerous and technologically advanced. The borg and the zerg don't fight on the same energy scales at all. Borg vs tyranid now... that would be a real fight!

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:11 am UTC

Dont get into a superweapons fight with the SW universe. Just dont.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:15 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:Dont get into a superweapons fight with the SW universe. Just dont.

Yeah, I'm not really into the Star Wars EU, but apparently the decades after Ep VI are basically filled with superweapons that destroy steadily more stuff. Let's not get into that.

Although I hate to resurrect this thread too much, I was right about Trek ships being able to "glass" planets--the Cardassians/Romulans try it on a Dominion world on DS9 and take out "60% of the crust" in the opening volley, saying it would take them an hour to destroy the mantle. It didn't do them any good, but when I saw it I thought of this thread.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:53 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Dont get into a superweapons fight with the SW universe. Just dont.

Yeah, I'm not really into the Star Wars EU, but apparently the decades after Ep VI are basically filled with superweapons that destroy steadily more stuff. Let's not get into that.

Although I hate to resurrect this thread too much, I was right about Trek ships being able to "glass" planets--the Cardassians/Romulans try it on a Dominion world on DS9 and take out "60% of the crust" in the opening volley, saying it would take them an hour to destroy the mantle. It didn't do them any good, but when I saw it I thought of this thread.


Its particular authors mostly, but yeah, EU is full of superweapons ranging from giant ships that use planets as fuel to make more of themselves to a huge gun that fires projecticles that fly through hyperspace and destroy entire planets. (Keep in mind that SW hyperspace is orders magnitude faster than ST)

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:17 pm UTC

Yeah. Star Wars is "oh, dear, the Millenium Falcon has entered hyperspace. They could be absolutely anywhere in the galaxy." Star Trek is "they've gone to warp, but I happen to be driving the Defiant so...let's follow them!" or, more demonstratively, "We could be anywhere in the galaxy...shit, this is going to take seventy years." Of course, the Borg get around a bit faster, but still.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby setzer777 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:39 am UTC

sikyon wrote:
Spoiler:
Even assuming that the borg cant' assimilate the zerg, the Borg still win hands down every time.

Defenses:

Borg can't adapt to physical attacks. There isn't actually any direct evidence of this, but anyhow lets assume it. Zerg space faring mutalisks would do nothing to a borg ship's armor. Borg cubes and spheres are capable of withstanding many consecutive photon torpedo hits - MANY such hits. Each photon torpedo packs about a 50-60 megaton punch, which is a few thousands of times more powerful than the bombs dropped in world war 2, which are perhaps as powerful as the tactical nuclear strikes terrans have at their disposal (based on blast sizes). And we all know how good tactical nukes are against zerg.

Offenses:

Borg have easy access to "mines" that have enough destructive power to reach across star systems. If they were uninterested in assimilation and were simply fighting a war of extermination.... Furthermore ground battles don't matter, the borg have no need to beam troops to a planet.

Numbers/logistics:

The Borg have greater numbers than the Zerg. They are in control of about 1/8th of the entire galaxy, with thousands of full borg worlds with many times more ships. Furthermore, when the UED attacked the sector with a simple fleet, Kerrigan was unable to call reinforcements from the rest of the galaxy if infact the zerg populated those worlds. This shows either the zerg lack sufficient numbers, or that those fleets were unable to reinforce her. In contrast, the Borg have transwarp drives, capable of transversing the galaxy in days. Their logistical capabilities are supreme, as a result.

Star Trek superweapons:

Star trek has an abundance of superweapons, which they don't use. They have metagenic weapons which can kill all life on a planet with days and become inert after a month, the genesis device is capable of annihilating entire worlds like the little doctor, and some civilian was able to scrounge up enough materials to build warp-speed probes which he used to destroy a number of suns and their star systems. The borg have assimilated federation personel and ships so likely have access to all of these technologies and many, many more. Sufficed to say, the death star pales in comparison to the destructive power of star trek.

Heck, consider transporters! Without shields, the borg could just use transporters to beam up borg forces - and never rematerialize them. Or beam objects into zerg forces. Or any other number of offensive capabilities transporters could be used for.

The borg are just too numerous and technologically advanced. The borg and the zerg don't fight on the same energy scales at all. Borg vs tyranid now... that would be a real fight!


I mostly agree with your arguments. However, I think you need to add one thing to your argument: the Borg win hands down every time *if* they use remotely sane military strategy and tactics. On the other hand, if they demonstrate the idiotic tactics they have often used in Star Trek such as letting people on board the cube and not interfering until they count as a threat (which to the Borg apparently only means having successfully physically damaged the cube), or only sending one cube at a time with years between each attack, the Zerg might stand a chance. But yeah, in a straight up war of annihilation, with intelligent commanders on both sides, the Borg would almost certainly win (assuming there wasn't a plot contrivance like the Overmind taking over the collective).

As mentioned earlier in the thread, more interesting than a straight up battle is the question of what would happen if the Borg assimilated a Zerg and it caused the collective to come in contact with the Overmind. Would there be a struggle for dominance (and who would win)? Or perhaps given their virtually identical goals (achieving physical perfection), they might willingly merge into a single mind (which you could call the Overmind being assimilated or the Borg collective becoming part of the Overmind - is there a difference?). Then again they might disagree about what constitutes "physical perfection", with the Borg wanting to become purely mechanical eventually (and yet also wanting to assimilate superior biology for some reason), and the Overmind showing no such desire.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:47 am UTC

Again, I haven't seen Voyager, so forgive me, but are the Borg really after "perfection"? I seem to remember that Hugh in "I, Borg" was very surprised at other creatures not wanting to be assimilated, and ever since then I've seen their motivation as a very twisted altruism. In which case, the Borg/Zerg would probably combine Borg tech, Zerg biotech, Borg desire to consume, and Zerg desire for perfection to become a race of cybernetically-enhanced super-creatures with more emphasis on assimilation than the Zerg demonstrate. (Because to the Zerg, they just need the DNA, whereas the Borg wants the individual.)
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby setzer777 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:36 am UTC

Have you seen First Contact? The Borg Queens' speeches include talk about the Borg seeking perfection (which to them ultimately means becoming purely synthetic and/or mechanical beings).
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Red Rule » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:23 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Robin S wrote:There is no Overmind anymore, remember? It's just the Queen of Blades. And Zerg are perfectly capable of assimilating technology... have you seen the Infested Terran from the latest Starcraft II trailer?

They can assimilate kerrigan too. They don't really infest the technology, otherwise they'd be capable of building infested SCVs and making everything the terrans can make. All they do is infest the people breeding areas of the command center, allowing them to manipulate the people's genes. The fact that they can fly it around is just the fact that they covered the entire thing with goop and can move the goop. The borg, however, assimilate technology AND biology.

Have you heard of SCII's 'Zerglot' achievement? you take over a probe with an infestor, build a nexus, then a gateway and then you warp in a zealot.
and all of these will be permenantly under your control.
Now given, but still, taking over a probe and having it warp in buildings attests some form of technologicall assimilation beyond the point of purely mechanical control.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Yakk » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:59 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:Actually, that's another issue that bothers me about SC, I never got a firm handle on how big the Zerg were. Were they from a previously-unexplored-part-of-space, now discovering the storyline races? The Protoss were aware of them, and were glassing planets in response, but I was never sure who had the upper hand pre-SC...I mean, sometimes they talk like the Protoss had nearly wiped them out (otherwise, acting like Tassadar went so wrong doesn't make sense over one planet) but on the other hand, they're still this massive threat.

And by "stalemate" I mean "neither side eradicates the other", although if a blockade was established, there's some chance that orbital bombardments could work. I'm not sure.

IIRC, the Zerg where created by the Protos progenitor race, the xel'naga.

A sketch of the first interaction between Terran and Zerg and Protoss:
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Chau_Sara
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby rainen » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:45 am UTC

Alright so for all of you making comments about how the two races act in the story (i.e. why they're not in total control of their respective systems) there is a simple reason, STORYLINE! What fun is a story if the borg destorys the federation and all other races? Why would people play starcraft if kerrigan wiped out the terran and protoss? The simple fact of the matter is that the writers of both universes didn't want to have their respective races achieve total domination, so they just wrote things differently (i.e. borg getting nerf'd down to fleet vs pen, fleet looses and kerrigan hiding away for four years to make her forces stronger when she could have steamrolled the entire galaxy) Once you realize that, all you need to do is compare how the two races were before they got nerf'd / stalled and then THAT is how you would decide who wins in a fight. I personally vote for kerry. If you were to continue her story naturally, she would probably end up infesting the entire human race as well as the protoss. With the kahla (protoss collective conscious) under her control (as well as the dark templar) she could have used their technology and communal mind link to bolster her own forces. Since the protoss are adept at being a part of one as well as having free will, the protoss would rise to leadership positions and command the lower life forms (zerg as we know it and terran, [ i mean lets face it, as a race we suck.])

On a side note, don't you think borg are basically the protoss but instead of telepathy they have even more technology? I mean really, the borg are running on what is basically a communal mind like and as far as technology goes, they're the front runners. Although the key difference is that instead of warring and conquering, the protoss just want to learn and grow as a race... and kill all zerg...

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby traveltheory » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:47 am UTC

There is too much wrongness about star trek in this thread to address it all. Its overwhelming. But I will try to point out some errors.


1. Trek shields cant stop physical impact. This is was never show or stated. Ever. Starships have survived direct collisions with each other and with sizable debris while the shields held. Absolutely false.
2. The Borg suck at Hand to Hand combat. Assumption. Borg are superior to most humanoids in combat. Remember that scene in First contact where the security officer tried to rifle butt a borg, only to have said pissed off borg turn and smack him unconscious? They wear armor and have increased strength. That is only what we are shown. Tactical drones are referred to several times throughout the series but never shown. We can assume they are even better at hand to hand. Drones have also been shown to be equipped with energy weapons on occasion. While they are rather slow, transporting 1 million drones with energy weapons, zero fear and a hive mind could probably deal a hell of a lot of damage. If they didnt just obliterate them from orbit.
3. Borg shields cant stop impacts. Another assumption. We only see them take fire from a projectile weapon once. Ever. It killed them, but they may just not have adapted to the situation. Given some time they may have just throw a shield up to deflect the bullets.
4. The borg suck at tactics. This is a tad unfair since I blame voyager for this. The Borg have at least been shown to adapt to use different tactics when their current tactics have failed. Attempting time travel and the use of weapons capable of causing damage to several light years worth of space. The reason they fail at assimilating the Federation as stated in universe is that it simply isnt a huge priority. They are thousands of light years from Borg space and beyond 1 or 2 encounters they are almost never in the alpha quadrant. They only actually made 2 attempts to assimilate the Federation, ever. The best of both worlds and first contact.

Both were rather half hearted attempts to be honest They probably just weren't ready for that level of resistance. The borg have also been shown to assimilate what they feel are useful, sometimes just taking one ship or a few individuals based on that they may or may not try to assimilate the species.

You can assume fairly that the zerg telekentic powers would be useless against the Borg. Star trek has telepathic and telekentic races none of them have been shown to ever be able to affect the borg. They dont have minds, how can you control their minds? The queen seems to lead as an individual but she could as easily be the personification of the collective and not an actual person. We dont know what generates the borg hive mind but its likely technological not biological which would make influencing it with telepathy seem impossible.
5. Weapons of mass destruction. To be blunt even though they certainly have access to them, they don't need them. A small number of ships could obliterate the surface of a planet. The star trek universe as stated has access to numerous weapons that can destroy a planet in a single shot, wipe out all life and even cause a star to go nova. And thats just the movies and tv shows.


This kinda makes the points all moot. Unless the zerg can engage the borg in space and win, they have zero chance. The borg will smash them from orbit without having taken any damage.


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