Borg vs. Zerg

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The Reaper
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby The Reaper » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:12 pm UTC

noneedtonullify wrote:Heh I agree about that (bad guys winning). This, of course, is bad guys vs. bad guys. The question about adapting though is one on both sides... the zerg evolve and adapt quickly to their new threats and obstacles as well... so it essentially comes down to can the zerg evolve new weapons and armour quicker then the borg can adapt and assimilate them. The more unlucky buggers that get caught in the way (such as terran or protoss, or ferengi just because it would be amusing to see them get tooled), the more for the zerg to draw off of to fuel their evolutions... and the more for the borg to assimilate into their attack force

I wonder what would happen with a zerg-tribble crossbreed....? It could eat anything organic... and each zerg egg would make 50 fuzzy zerglings that wirr you into a sense of safety right before they kill you :D

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby zenten » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:15 pm UTC

noneedtonullify wrote:Heh I agree about that (bad guys winning). This, of course, is bad guys vs. bad guys. The question about adapting though is one on both sides... the zerg evolve and adapt quickly to their new threats and obstacles as well... so it essentially comes down to can the zerg evolve new weapons and armour quicker then the borg can adapt and assimilate them. The more unlucky buggers that get caught in the way (such as terran or protoss, or ferengi just because it would be amusing to see them get tooled), the more for the zerg to draw off of to fuel their evolutions... and the more for the borg to assimilate into their attack force


Well, you'd have to come up with a reason for the war to happen. The Borg would likely focus on the Protoss first, as they have the most "distinctiveness" to add to their own. They also have some nifty technologies the Borg would rather like to have. The Terrans are just crappy humans, so they wouldn't be terribly interesting. The Zerg are interesting too, but they would prove more difficult to infect. So the Borg would go for the Protoss first, unless the Zerg brought the fight to them.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Kizyr » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:58 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:I wonder what would happen with a zerg-tribble crossbreed....? It could eat anything organic... and each zerg egg would make 50 fuzzy zerglings that wirr you into a sense of safety right before they kill you :D

...you've just given them the key to conquering the entire universe. You realize this? KF
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Berengal » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

Kizyr wrote:
The Reaper wrote:I wonder what would happen with a zerg-tribble crossbreed....? It could eat anything organic... and each zerg egg would make 50 fuzzy zerglings that wirr you into a sense of safety right before they kill you :D

...you've just given them the key to conquering the entire universe. You realize this? KF

Now imagine the borg adapting their nanites to the zerg, assimilating the zergibbles.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Yakk » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:56 pm UTC

Petting is futile, you will be ... oooh, ya, right there.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:37 pm UTC

Nothing in the Zerg arsenal could even put a dent on a single Borg cube, let alone a large number of them. Borg have no interest in gaining a foothold on a planet, they would simply beam down around the overmind and assimilate it. If that doesn't work (8472-type scenario), a Borg cube could probably just land on the overmind and squish it, with them being some 28 km3 in size and whatnot.

Either way, Zerg is royally toast, because Zerg is designed to be balanced, while the Borg are designed to be ridiculously overpowered.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Berengal » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:49 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Petting is futile, you will be ... oooh, ya, right there. Kekekekekekeke

Fixed.
You, sir, name? wrote:Either way, Zerg is royally toast, because Zerg is designed to be balanced, while the Borg are designed to be ridiculously overpowered.

QFT. It does however propose a peculiar paradox unless you specify who they're balanced/overpowered in regards to. If not, then you should assume eachother, but since if A is balanced to B, then B is balanced to A, and if A is overpowered to B, then B is underpowered to A, we get an airplane/treadmill paradox (except it's a real paradox this time) if A is balanced to B and B overpowered to A.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:14 pm UTC

zenten wrote:Well, you'd have to come up with a reason for the war to happen. The Borg would likely focus on the Protoss first, as they have the most "distinctiveness" to add to their own. They also have some nifty technologies the Borg would rather like to have. The Terrans are just crappy humans, so they wouldn't be terribly interesting. The Zerg are interesting too, but they would prove more difficult to infect. So the Borg would go for the Protoss first, unless the Zerg brought the fight to them.


The protoss have some nifty stuff that could put quite a hurting on the borg. (That crazy world destroying temple thing for example.) They have area-effect cloaking. They can disrupt space-time [stasis field, recall]. They can teleport.

According to the SCII website, they also have a death star now. (The mothership can "crack a planet")

Oh, and they have mind control.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby zenten » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:55 pm UTC

Guys, the Borg have psychic powers. They use them all the time. They just don't use them on people they're fighting against.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Berengal » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:21 pm UTC

zenten wrote:Guys, the Borg have psychic powers. They use them all the time. They just don't use them on people they're fighting against.

No they don't. No they don't. Because they can't.

They use technology such as computerized mind-probes and regular wireless communication to such to control their drones, not psychic powers.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Robin S » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:47 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:According to the SCII website, they also have a death star now. (The mothership can "crack a planet")
I have to dispute this. The latest version of the planet cracker that we've seen looks more like an overpowered eggwhisk. Even the original wasn't capable of destroying terrain.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby zenten » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:43 am UTC

Berengal wrote:
zenten wrote:Guys, the Borg have psychic powers. They use them all the time. They just don't use them on people they're fighting against.

No they don't. No they don't. Because they can't.

They use technology such as computerized mind-probes and regular wireless communication to such to control their drones, not psychic powers.


Not if you accept all Star Trek as canon.

If you're talking about the actually cool Borg, which stopped at First Contact (as in First Contact and on had lame fishborg) then you're right. But after that you learn about their psychic powers, which let them do things like whisper things to Picard, and control Chakotay. It also gives them super healing powers, which work on both living and electronic things.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Various Varieties » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:20 pm UTC

I am very tempted to post "Neither; the Flood would win." :mrgreen:

But it would be silly to open such a can of worms infection spores.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Master Gunner » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:29 pm UTC

In space, I'd have to give it to the Borg, on the ground, I'd definitely go Zerg. As for what happens one one tries to assimilate/take over the other...that would be an epic battle. They both have the collective wills of millions of beings behind them...so I think that would just come to a standstill. Any Zerg that the Borg take over would probably have whatever allows them to communicate with the rest of the brood disabled/suppressed by nanites, and any Borg taken over by the Zerg would likewise end up being cut off from the collective. So in the end, it's an epic battle, but I don't know who will win, just that we'll lose.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby The Reaper » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:39 am UTC

Master Gunner wrote:In space, I'd have to give it to the Borg, on the ground, I'd definitely go Zerg. As for what happens one one tries to assimilate/take over the other...that would be an epic battle. They both have the collective wills of millions of beings behind them...so I think that would just come to a standstill. Any Zerg that the Borg take over would probably have whatever allows them to communicate with the rest of the brood disabled/suppressed by nanites, and any Borg taken over by the Zerg would likewise end up being cut off from the collective. So in the end, it's an epic battle, but I don't know who will win, just that we'll lose.

Collective wills of a few being for the zerg side, even if they are really really really strong wills, and the collective wills of quintillions on the borg side. owning your own galaxy can do that.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:15 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:Collective wills of a few being for the zerg side, even if they are really really really strong wills, and the collective wills of quintillions on the borg side. owning your own galaxy can do that.


I think you underestimate the strength of the Overmind. I dont recall the details, but the damn thing's mind can reach across space to control stuff.

Also, you cant kill the overmind unless you have some cool dark templar power.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby The Reaper » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:05 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Collective wills of a few being for the zerg side, even if they are really really really strong wills, and the collective wills of quintillions on the borg side. owning your own galaxy can do that.


I think you underestimate the strength of the Overmind. I dont recall the details, but the damn thing's mind can reach across space to control stuff.

Also, you cant kill the overmind unless you have some cool dark templar power.

I think smashing the mass of a borg cube into a planet would work just fine. Mass Driver FTW!

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby zenten » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:32 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Collective wills of a few being for the zerg side, even if they are really really really strong wills, and the collective wills of quintillions on the borg side. owning your own galaxy can do that.


I think you underestimate the strength of the Overmind. I dont recall the details, but the damn thing's mind can reach across space to control stuff.

Also, you cant kill the overmind unless you have some cool dark templar power.


I'm pretty sure infecting it with nanites would work.

The Reaper wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Collective wills of a few being for the zerg side, even if they are really really really strong wills, and the collective wills of quintillions on the borg side. owning your own galaxy can do that.


I think you underestimate the strength of the Overmind. I dont recall the details, but the damn thing's mind can reach across space to control stuff.

Also, you cant kill the overmind unless you have some cool dark templar power.

I think smashing the mass of a borg cube into a planet would work just fine. Mass Driver FTW!


No, that just blows it up. It will reform somewhere else fully intact, like just blowing up the Borg Queen.

Actually, there's one thing the Zerg have going for them over the fishy Borg, their Overmind is way cooler than the Borg Queen. Also more in theme with them.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Master Gunner » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:27 pm UTC

I'll definitely favour the Overmind over the Borg Queen any day. I much prefer the pre-Voyager, neigh-unstoppable Borg. However, nanites may be used to basically lobotomize the Overmind and control it, while preventing another one from re-forming. Kerrigan on the other hand...her pure awesomeness and bad-assery may just give the Zerg the advantage.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Antimatter Spork » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:35 am UTC

Wasn't the whole species whateverthenumberwas bit about how terrible the Borg are at fighting things that use claws (you know, like the Zerg?)

I don't recall how the Zerg travel through space, but given how the Protoss and Terrans did against them, I don't think that space superiority really matters very much (if orbital bombardments were at all effective, the Protoss and Terrans, both of whom possess spaceships of considerable power, would easily stomp the Zerg.)
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Antimatter Spork wrote:I don't recall how the Zerg travel through space, but given how the Protoss and Terrans did against them, I don't think that space superiority really matters very much (if orbital bombardments were at all effective, the Protoss and Terrans, both of whom possess spaceships of considerable power, would easily stomp the Zerg.)


The protoss razed several planets to their mantles to rid them of zerg infestation, so I guess they do work.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Master Gunner » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:34 pm UTC

It just takes a while, allowing some Zerg to escape into space and infect other planets. Also, I don't think anybody's arguing that the Borg could beat the Zerg in ground combat any more than then Terran could.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Yakk » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:13 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Antimatter Spork wrote:I don't recall how the Zerg travel through space, but given how the Protoss and Terrans did against them, I don't think that space superiority really matters very much (if orbital bombardments were at all effective, the Protoss and Terrans, both of whom possess spaceships of considerable power, would easily stomp the Zerg.)


The protoss razed several planets to their mantles to rid them of zerg infestation, so I guess they do work.


*nod*, and the "considerable power" is on the wrong scale.

The USS Enterprise is capable of melting a planet down to it's mantle.

A single Borg Cube is treats the attacks of the Enterprise as interesting data about the technology of these particular beings, not as anything significantly threatening.

... oh yes, and if you use the Voyageur Borg, a single wet behind the ears human could take on the entire collective and come out with a profit. So let's use the non-stupid Borg, please? :)
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Master Gunner » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:53 am UTC

Obviously, I try to ignore Voyager as much as possible. TNG-era Borg are the only Borg in my mind.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Antimatter Spork » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:58 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Antimatter Spork wrote:I don't recall how the Zerg travel through space, but given how the Protoss and Terrans did against them, I don't think that space superiority really matters very much (if orbital bombardments were at all effective, the Protoss and Terrans, both of whom possess spaceships of considerable power, would easily stomp the Zerg.)


The protoss razed several planets to their mantles to rid them of zerg infestation, so I guess they do work.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I played Starcraft), but didn't the Zerg invade the Protoss homeworld and send the remnant of their race fleeing into hiding across the galaxy? And doesn't the game end with the Zerg kicking everyone's ass despite the fact that they don't even really have spaceships? (I think the overlords can travel through space, but that's about it)

Looks like planetary bombardment as an anti-Zerg weapon worked out REAL well.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby jakeyizle » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:50 am UTC

Defiler + Dark Swarm. Although this doesn't protect from Splash damage...
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby BlackSails » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:16 am UTC

Antimatter Spork wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
Antimatter Spork wrote:I don't recall how the Zerg travel through space, but given how the Protoss and Terrans did against them, I don't think that space superiority really matters very much (if orbital bombardments were at all effective, the Protoss and Terrans, both of whom possess spaceships of considerable power, would easily stomp the Zerg.)


Looks like planetary bombardment as an anti-Zerg weapon worked out REAL well.


Tassadar refused to burn the human planets, which allowed the zerg to spread.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby rossy » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:15 am UTC

As soon as one zergling is assimilated, kerrigan would know of the nanites. She would copy the design, pimp it with psi related technology and some time later she has control over the whole collective.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby The Reaper » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:31 am UTC

rossy wrote:As soon as one zergling is assimilated, kerrigan would know of the nanites. She would copy the design, pimp it with psi related technology and some time later she has control over the whole collective.

Does she actually have an ability to recreate nanites? how would her making them not suddenly make them still under the Queen's control? Would she know how to make the design in a way that the Queen couldn't make it take control of kerrigan? o.O;;

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Spuddly » Fri May 02, 2008 9:18 am UTC

There's a difference between gameplay and story with Starcraft. For instance, in SC1, the Protoss glass at least one Terran world because infested infested with Zerg. Of course, you don't actually get this power, since that would be a rather unbalanced game.

Also, Battlecruisers float a few hundred feat above the ground, in range of marines who, with a relatively small number, can down it with gauss rifles. Not to mention that their enormous science vessels, big enough to explore in some missions, are equally easy to bring down with dudes with guns.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Antimatter Spork » Fri May 02, 2008 10:01 pm UTC

I don't think that anyone here is talking about SC terrans. Besides, the story of SC and the actual gameplay have some pretty weird scaling issues (giant battlecruisers can be taken down by a couple marines, etc.)
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby 01d55 » Mon May 05, 2008 6:20 am UTC

The thing you have to understand about Borg adaption is that it's the same kind of power as Darkseid's Omega Beams - if you take it as read, there's no way they ever lose a fight to anything that doesn't outscale them and there are only one or two things in their respective continuities that outscale them, and yet they consistently lose to the good guys regardless of the circumstances. The only explanation is that these things are exactly useful enough to make them more powerful than anything except what they happen to be fighting at any given moment. That's how the same guys who could wreck the entire Federation fleet with one Cube lost their leader and vital infrastructure to a single ship half-crewed by half-starved refugees.

Therefore, even though Zerg assimilation and adaption is really only good enough to substitute for technological research, while Borg adaption is activated when the Borg Queen pushes a green button labeled "Instant Win," Zerg win because their adaption is reliable. You never see a situation where Our Heroes are fighting the Zerg and it looks like All Is Lost but then A Miracle Occurs and screws the Zerg out of their win. You can point to when Tassadar gave his life to destroy the Overmind, but he had to fight like hell just to get the chance and then the Zerg still overran Aiur.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Pathway » Wed May 07, 2008 7:12 am UTC

I think what you guys are missing is that the Borg have limitless capability to adapt, whereas the Zerg can only upgrade attacks and carapaces to 255 before their potential is tapped out.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby CogDissident » Fri May 09, 2008 4:38 pm UTC

The Borg, as far as I've seen, don't cultivate worlds well (implanting a lot of valuable metals and rare resources in their biologicals), and largely don't mine them either (preferring to strip already-rich worlds). The Zerg get 100% of the potential of a world, mining the minerals, spreading the creep to cover the entire surface, stripping all digestible organic material and turning it directly into more Zerg.

Borg could wipe out a planet, and the Zerg could quietly seed a dozen from the escaping transports. The Borg could find and wipe out half of those, and the Zerg could seed everything in a 100 planet radius.

Borg are inefficient with their use of worlds, Zerg are about as efficient as you can get. Borg require a LARGE initial investment to turn a world, Zerg require a dozen zerglings and one celebrate. Borg tend to fight in large clumps out in the open and do not use stealth, Zerg can fight even as individuals and can avoid detection very well.

So the Zerg can get to many more planets, use their resources much more efficiently, and are harder to remove from a planet (except by glassing it, and even then, some may survive deep underground).

The Zerg would be nearly impossible to exterminate, and would out-spread the Borg, plain and simple.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Yakk » Fri May 09, 2008 4:57 pm UTC

Berengal wrote:
Yakk wrote:Petting is futile, you will be ... oooh, ya, right there. Kekekekekekeke

Fixed.


Please don't misquote me. Thanks.
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Antimatter Spork » Fri May 09, 2008 5:53 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:
Berengal wrote:
Yakk wrote:Petting is futile, you will be ... oooh, ya, right there. Kekekekekekeke

Fixed.


Please don't misquote me. Thanks.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby Yakk » Fri May 09, 2008 7:18 pm UTC

Antimatter Spork wrote:
Yakk wrote:
Berengal wrote:
Yakk wrote:Petting is futile, you will be ... oooh, ya, right there. Kekekekekekeke
Fixed.
Please don't misquote me. Thanks.
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Yes, I get and understand what the joke was. No, I don't want anyone misquoting me regardless. So I asked Berengal not to misquote me (and did it publicly, as it is also a general request, not specifically at Berengal).
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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby The Reaper » Fri May 09, 2008 8:12 pm UTC

Berengal wrote:Petting is futile, you will be ... oooh, ya, right there. Kekekekekekeke
There, newquote.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby CogDissident » Tue May 13, 2008 8:25 pm UTC

Really, the whole "fixed" thing isn't really misquoting you. Its more an attempt at humor. Lighten up.

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Re: Borg vs. Zerg

Postby zenten » Thu May 15, 2008 4:03 pm UTC

CogDissident wrote:The Borg, as far as I've seen, don't cultivate worlds well (implanting a lot of valuable metals and rare resources in their biologicals), and largely don't mine them either (preferring to strip already-rich worlds). The Zerg get 100% of the potential of a world, mining the minerals, spreading the creep to cover the entire surface, stripping all digestible organic material and turning it directly into more Zerg.

Borg could wipe out a planet, and the Zerg could quietly seed a dozen from the escaping transports. The Borg could find and wipe out half of those, and the Zerg could seed everything in a 100 planet radius.

Borg are inefficient with their use of worlds, Zerg are about as efficient as you can get. Borg require a LARGE initial investment to turn a world, Zerg require a dozen zerglings and one celebrate. Borg tend to fight in large clumps out in the open and do not use stealth, Zerg can fight even as individuals and can avoid detection very well.

So the Zerg can get to many more planets, use their resources much more efficiently, and are harder to remove from a planet (except by glassing it, and even then, some may survive deep underground).

The Zerg would be nearly impossible to exterminate, and would out-spread the Borg, plain and simple.


Except that they don't glass planets, they blow them up. They can also make stars go nova if necessary. They also would be able to see through Zerg stealth, or at least any Zerg stealth that a science vessel could pick up.


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