The Flood versus EVERYTHING

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby Robert'); DROP TABLE *; » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:52 am UTC

The Coalition of Polises could stand up to the flood easily.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby ACU-LP » Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:07 am UTC

I reckon the Hunter homeworld would go extremely well against the flood: they are the only sentient species which physically cannot be infected by the flood, their combatants are extremely powerful. They can infuse themselves effectively with technology: see Scarabs. And all that is needed for them to survive is a single worm on account of their reproductive system.

(Yes I know my previous posts had different views on the hunters, but it does appear I was wrong when I looked the things up. It also turns out that the creatures we see in the games aren't technically the 'Hunters'.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby Core Commander E-178 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:19 am UTC

I have only read the first page so far so forgive me if I missed a reply like mine to the below that already took care of this.

Dave Rapp wrote:The forerunner strategy to get rid of the Flood made no sense at all. They were willing to wipe out EVERYTHING in the entire galaxy, probably including themselves, just to get rid of the flood... and yet the kept them alive on their big destructive weapon things. They're smart enoug to build the Halo network but can't figure out that he flood is likely to eventually come back and kill everything again?


The Halo's were also research stations were samples of the Flood were kept and study in an attempt to find a weakness that didn't require them to fire the rings. When their first Contender class AI was hacked by the Gravemind they most likely didn't have time to destroy the samples before the rings went off.

For others saying it is so easy to beat the Flood: Tell me, do you really think the Chief had it as easy as claimed here? Heck no. The Chief going off the canon novel The Flood was having a very hard time fighting the Flood. And he hardly annihilated them in combat in any game given he only ever faced a small fraction of the total Flood forces that had more pressing things to do then go after a random human. Far too many people overstate how the Covenant, Forerunner, Flood must be so weak because one man was able to defeat them: Their wrong. The Chief had to set off the Pillar of Autumn's will most of the Flood was still on Alpha Halo to destroy them in their most basic stage. Halo 2 he does nothing to them other than run through fire fights between Flood and Covenant forces to reach the Keyshipl. Halo 3 they only wiped out the Flood because the infestation was far less than the billions+ per planet the Forerunner fought and that the Gravemind went to the Ark with all his forces to attempt to escape the Halo rings. The Flood was a shadow of what it was and was only taken by pure luck.

The Forerunner did not realize the ture threat of the Flood before it was too late, and by the time they began to start destroying biospheres and forcing stars to go Supernova there was truly nothing they could do. Now if the Forerunners had known of the threat posed the Flood would have beem stomped out before becoming a threat.

Also, the nuking them is a bad idea given that would just spread the spores across the planet. Far to many people vastly underestimate the threat of the Flood to most (high) mid-tier organic s.f civilizations which it gets rolling. You can only stop them in the early stages without taking out massive chunks of the galaxy,

Now for a s.f faction that could stomp them I put forward the Core from Total Annihilation. They can destroy the Flood without any worry of being infected due to their minds having long ago been uploaded into machines.

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby Robert'); DROP TABLE *; » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:30 pm UTC

You can only stop them in the early stages without taking out massive chunks of the galaxy,

Quite a lot of the civilizations mentioned have nanotechnology. Disassembling the spores on the molecular level is not an option?
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby Core Commander E-178 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:32 pm UTC

Robert'); DROP TABLE *; wrote:
You can only stop them in the early stages without taking out massive chunks of the galaxy,

Quite a lot of the civilizations mentioned have nanotechnology. Disassembling the spores on the molecular level is not an option?


It really depends on how advance it is. For example Core and Arm nano tech would be tear it apart easily given the many feats it has such as breaking down building size rocks in seconds, etc. Another example would be the Borg who most likely would have a hard time combating the Flood given the Flood work on a level beyond the Borg in a shorter amount of time as seen in Halo 3. A Borg Drone would hold out for a time against the infection but after being hit by enough Infection Forms or inhaling enough spores would be infected and turn against them.

It also requires you stomp the Flood out before they get off the first few planets, form a Gravemind, and turn your own technology against you as they did the Forerunners (who given what we know of the Huragok and their massive industry likely had highly advance nano technology).

S.f such as Star Wars, Star Trek, B5 Younger Races etc. would only be able to hold out for a time against a Flood attack. SW would take it the worse given they have even faster standard FTL than the Forerunners which would allow the infection to spread far and wide before the Empire could hope to stop it.

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby ACU-LP » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:30 am UTC

Nanotech disassembly would be possible, probably even effective, however the controller has to be in close proximity and in the case of the ARM, is vulnerable to infection, the CORE to hacking and both to physical damage, something the flood, for squishy organisms are damned good at.

The Flood are relatively easy to defeat in the halo world given a couple of conditions: if the Flood have infected a planet, then as long as there is not sufficient technology on the planet for them to break orbit, then eradicating the infection on a planet is very easy: the Covenants 'glassing' tactic vaporizes anything on the planet. And not only is this staggeringly effective against any biological lifeforms, but also Forerunner structures and even ONI section 3 underground bunkers which are protected by incredible amounts of soil, titanium-A armor and the likes. To top it off, this can be achieved from orbit without having to risk infection to any of the Covenant themselves. The planet can then be scanned for any remnants of life, which can be obliterated from orbit, and the planet then left alone.
The main issue here however is that the Flood mainly exist on Halo installations and / or places where space worthy ships have landed, and this is what poses the problem. What is necessary is an effective means of destroying Flood controlled vessels and annihilating all traces of flood simultaneously. I do not remember it being explicitly mentioned, but I doubt, being biological and resilient though they are that the Flood can withstand the cold and vacuum conditions of space. Therefore, use Covenant ships to glass any infected planet, and use the same Covenant ships to turn any flood infected spaceships into molten slag. Something which their plasma cannons are exceptionally good at.
All in all, the reason why the flood weren't quickly obliterated by the Covenant is because of their religious obsession with the rings, imitative technology rather than innovative (and hence both are reasons for the decision to land on the rings and [accidentally] allow the release of the flood), coupled with bad planning / management.
The Flood are very strong in ground based engagements because of numbers, and the covenant relatively weak. In space however, the covenant are leagues ahead.

Despite what could be the relative ease of the covenant killing the Flood, it wouldn't work with the Forerunners as by the time of reaction, the Flood had infected several worlds and had many ships, more than would be feasibly traceable without a high chance of some escaping. So despite superior technology, they could not have won that fight.

My other issue, and this isn't so much with the flood but the series itself, is that the rings kill the Flood's food / biomass sources, killing them through starvation. So how the hell did the Flood on the installations survive? Now in the first Halo game, the excuse of cryo-chambers or some such is possible. However, in Halo 2 the Flood are free and roaming already on the inner defense shell of the library. (Speaking of which, who thought that was a smart idea?)

Further from the issue of the Flood, I'd also like to make a comment on how the covenant are described in the books; imitative rather than innovative. Now, some of their technology is very similar to that of the Forerunners, so they acquired that, but some isn't. So what species is out there that provided them with their other technology? (Really to answer this we need to know more about the technological capabilities and cultures of each of the castes that make up the Covenant).

Also, I'd really like to see what happens when the Flood meet Engineers.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby tuseroni » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:02 am UTC

you brought up borg, so i must inteject.

the borg would win. why you ask? simple they adapt REALLY fast. one, maybe two drones might get taken over (but their cybernetics will still be hooked to the collective giving useful information about the parasite infecting them) after which point the collective will adapt nanites to fight the flood.
they might assimilate them...perhaps for the spores (borg who assimilate by spores...we're all fucked!) might just destroy them.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby Robert'); DROP TABLE *; » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:20 pm UTC

Nanotech disassembly would be possible, probably even effective, however the controller has to be in close proximity and in the case of the ARM, is vulnerable to infection, the CORE to hacking and both to physical damage, something the flood, for squishy organisms are damned good at.

Controller of what?
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby ACU-LP » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:31 pm UTC

Robert'); DROP TABLE *; wrote:
Nanotech disassembly would be possible, probably even effective, however the controller has to be in close proximity and in the case of the ARM, is vulnerable to infection, the CORE to hacking and both to physical damage, something the flood, for squishy organisms are damned good at.
Controller of what?
In the Total Annihilation world the nanotech systems both the ARM and the CORE use appear to be passive; they are very powerful and can do many things, but must be supervised by a build / repair unit that supplies them with materials, new nanobots and instructions. The nanobots cease to function and degrade the instant they are no longer being assisted by the control node (i.e. builder /repairer).
This is supported by the fact that when reclaimed by an opposing faction, they act inert and have no defensive features that in such a world is something that would be tactically very effective; deny the enemy structures and resources.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby Core Commander E-178 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:47 am UTC

tuseroni wrote:you brought up borg, so i must inteject.

the borg would win. why you ask? simple they adapt REALLY fast. one, maybe two drones might get taken over (but their cybernetics will still be hooked to the collective giving useful information about the parasite infecting them) after which point the collective will adapt nanites to fight the flood.
they might assimilate them...perhaps for the spores (borg who assimilate by spores...we're all fucked!) might just destroy them.


The Biotech race Species 8472 that were blowing away Borg Cubes left and right for months would like a word with you. This is a no limits fallacy given the Borg have been shown to have limits to their ability to adapt.

The Irken Empire could also easily destroy Flood. Hell, a single Irken Janitor could take out the Borg in no more than a few weeks.

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby tuseroni » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:25 pm UTC

except that in the end the nanobots were used to destroy species 8472.
also 8472 never took over a borg host (the ability to get straight data from a living subject, something the borg could not do with 8472) would be a great boon to their ability to adapt.

the limits of the borg also have by and large been put in place as a matter of plot convenience than as a logical extension of the premise. usually put in place to allow the main characters the ability to survive an encounter with the borg (btw did anyone else get a bit of joy to hear that the borg run on unix?(best of both worlds part 2))

the borg from their inception were overpowered. and not like q overpowered where its cheeky and fun, more like cthulhu overpowered where you are just fucked. you can run but they can run longer, you can fight but they can regenerate their ships, you can try to out think them but they are much much smarter than you are. (one human brain is made of billions of neurons all connected into a network forming a collective. an individual neuron is dumb compared to a brain. the collective is made of billions of brains, each made of billions of neurons, all of them working together to make a superbrain known as the collective. the proportion of intelligence of a human to the collective should be like that of a neuron to a brain.)
of course how do humans show something massively smarter than humans? well...not very well. we are very limited in what our minds can comprehend in that regard so the closest we ever seem to get is making them really arrogant. plus the actual capabilities of the borg made their return to the show a logistical nightmare. how do you make your characters encounter such creatures and survive. and voyager made it worse yet. they had to encounter them at LEAST once per season (after they entered borg territory that is, i think they were absent in the first season) and while voyager gave them some of their nicer additions (who wasnt proud to see "one", and of course the obligatory 7/9 ) but also crippled them dramatically. and the addition of the borg queen took away one of my favourite aspects of them, their complete decentralization, and the way they work together like cells in a body.

the ability of the borg to adapt i think has limits but those limits are:
exposure to the problem (what they want to assimilate, what is attacking them, etc)
time (many minds combined with computer efficiency, can allow them to make adaptations really quickly as time in the order of milliseconds can be very long)

the 8472 problem is a logical progression from the central premise, but only to an extent. the borg should have been able to adapt their nanites to 8472's physiology. they had enough time and they witnessed how 8472's bodies react to the nanites. they didnt need voyager for this.
of course it was a plot point to get 7/9 into the show, perhaps not enough people liked tuvok who usually held the role of "guy who doesnt understand humanity and thinks logically" previously filled by spock and data (ds9 just had guy who doesnt understand humanity, but doesnt necessarily think logically...the changeling...forget his name)

but im getting off on a tangent. back to the central point. the borg have sufficient time and exposure to assimilate or destroy the flood.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby SlashThred » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:12 pm UTC

I don't know... Forerunner architecture seemed practically designed so that it was easier for the flood to scramble around the nooks and crannies galore. Plus, clearly they all had terrible aim too. I mean, why not just use the teleporting systems they had to just automatically teleport all of the Flood into sealed underground pits? Even better, just teleport bombs on them?
No, the reason the Forerunners died is because they were a suicide cult, and suicide cults never last.

Darleks should theoretically pwn them, because the Flood wouldn't be able to penetrate their armour. Otherwise any high tech culture with enough smarts to quarantine should splat them good. Perhaps it was Forerunner access to teleporting and time travel that allowed the Flood to infiltrate them so completely?

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby ACU-LP » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:34 am UTC

SlashThred wrote:I don't know... Forerunner architecture seemed practically designed so that it was easier for the flood to scramble around the nooks and crannies galore. Plus, clearly they all had terrible aim too. I mean, why not just use the teleporting systems they had to just automatically teleport all of the Flood into sealed underground pits? Even better, just teleport bombs on them?
No, the reason the Forerunners died is because they were a suicide cult, and suicide cults never last.
Darleks should theoretically pwn them, because the Flood wouldn't be able to penetrate their armour. Otherwise any high tech culture with enough smarts to quarantine should splat them good. Perhaps it was Forerunner access to teleporting and time travel that allowed the Flood to infiltrate them so completely?
From the canon, the structures weren't quite designed that badly, there were only certain places from which they could get out from underground once released, and for moving around, the flood destroyed the barriers that the nooks and crannies are riddled with.
The teleporting system was difficult as it required a lot of power and a bit of time. Teleporting all the flood would be extremely difficult, and bombs simply don't do the trick. And the Daleks may have strong armor, but they're not impenetrable: one of the Dr's sidekicks bashed a Dalek to death with a baseball bat for calling her short. The suits are like that of MJOLNIR Armor: very hard to get near, and hermetically sealed, and designed to take immeasurable amounts of punishment, but flood infection forms can still pierce it when the shields are down.
The issue with the forerunner is that they were obsessed with studying the things. Also, if the shield world Onyx is anything to go by, then Halo theoretically had an extremely powerful defense it never used: Sentinels had an ability to merge cores and parts with others to form different structures for different purposes, be it to become more offensively/defensively powerful, or to mine ground or repair structures, etc. One such formation is something you see in the games, but do not know it is them. When halo is blowing to bits and the ground has become visible in Halo 3, there are the square sections of ground with energy things in the centre of them. You drive across them in the final section. These are a superstructure of sentinels that make the structure of Halo rings, and have extreme offensive capabilities. In the case of Onyx: a shield world entirely made by the forerunner, these sentinels destroy and entire covenant battlegroup. The forerunner were too curious and idiotic to survive the flood, their sentinels however should have made mince meat of them.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby CinnamonOne » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:41 am UTC

I find it quite funny.

The Forerunners, Gods of the Galaxy, fall to the Flood.

The Humans and the Covenant; the lesser mortals, are yet able to defeat the flood, at least temporarily.

So, in other words, most 'generic' SF factions with better zombie-slaying tech should do the job.

But it would be a cool fight indeed...

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby CinnamonOne » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:08 am UTC

I would just address SW and Halo right now.

BDZs. Much faster than Glassing. It was even available to the Leviathan 3000 years before the Imps.
Sun Crusher. One-Step-Less-Than-Black-Hole-Rated.
Other Super-cool WOMD. Galaxy Gun, Star Forge, Hypermatter, Self Destruct (Odd, you would think the Forerunner's had that on their ships), World Devastators, Mass Shadow Generator, Universe-Busting-Thing, Portable Black Holes, The Force, etc.
Death-Troopers, Red Harvest, Mechu Daru (or something like that) and Rakghouls. Sure the first two aren't really canon, but it's a good enough excuse.
The Force. Just assimilating a standard Jedi does not give the Gravemind to manipulate Midi Chlorians. It takes a mega Sith to do that.
Droids, Period
Blasters and Lightsabers. Both of which are very hot.
Storm Trooper Marksman Academy. The Flood would take a course in that to qualify to meeting the heroes.
Originality. Period x2
Palps. Ruthless. He would see the threat, and it would be BDZ and Flood busting Machines.
The Chiss. They probably went Flood busting already, were the two Galaxies ever to meet. They may not have the tech, but they don't have the bureaucracy. And they have the attitude, just like the empire.
Grand Ad. Thrawn. Super Mind>Grave Mind
Clones. Sure, it's a two edge sword, but just give a healthy dose of BDZ, and the problems solved. Considering that SPARTANS were very effective soldiers, and that cred for cred Clones are far superior, it could be a good source of super soldiers.

Now one problem, the Yuuzhan Vong. Their ships, weapons, equipment, etc are all organic. Sure some are either too small or too strong (hard) for the Flood to infect, but Crab armor and other nifty standard gadgets would be doomed. A yamosk or dovin basal getting infected would be very bad. But look on the bright side! The Yuuzhan Vong would probably quickly find some way to neutralize the Flood spore, seeing their mastery of organic matter.

Some things addressing the Flood.
Puny Pure Forms of the Flood. If that's the best they can do, they really can't be the apex of evolution.
A Combat Form is not resistant to vacuum. Some dedicated Flood Matter may be, but not the Infection Forms.
For a higher-evolved race, they are absolutely pathetic.
They cannot infect machines. They can hijack ships, and control the ship manually, but they can't infect a droid.
The Flood could not have teleported themselves using Halo's teleportation grid, otherwise the Flood would just bypassed the Quarantine Zone entirely. It is likely that the Forerunners installed a safe guard which vapes all Flood matter going through a portal.

Sure, SW is overpowered. But at least it doesn't call its magic magic.

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby zmatt » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:12 pm UTC

Any race that is sufficiently advanced to develop combat capable robots (hell even we can in IRL to an extent) and is smart enough to deploy them would have no problem dealing with the flood. They main weakness is that they assume their opponent is organic. What if they ended up on post-Judgment day terminator occupied earth? Skynet would make quick work of them.

On the Borg, wouldn't an injected Borg ship allow the flood to use hivemind technology? That would make them even more dangerous than the Borg.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby Babam » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:13 am UTC

I see a lot of posts about AI and robuts being the worst match up for the flood. They have in the past corrupted forerunner AIs and turned them against them. I believe it was Mendicant Bias
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby CinnamonOne » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:16 am UTC

There are several ways to destroy the Flood

Here are some:

1. BDZ/Orbital Bombardment
Just blast the infected

2. Robots and Droids
The reason why Mendicat Bias joined the Flood was that he was smart. too smart. An army of mindless droids cannot be converted, so they would just ploy through the Flood (imagine... Dark troopers attack High Charity!)

3. Reverse engineer the Flood
The Flood work at the cellular level, so some very advanced races may be able to come up with an anti-Flood chemical.

As far as Borg vs Flood Goes... We do not know how strong are the defenses of either race on the nano-level, so we cannot say much.

Just say the winner is the infector.

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby CinnamonOne » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:12 am UTC

By the way. The Flood is already a hivemind. More accurately a hive with one king (gravemind)

Gravemind is one entity. I'm not sure about the many bodies (he probably has one mouth, but many tentacles), but just destroying High Charity destroyed him, so he probably has one body he always disassembles.

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby zmatt » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:36 pm UTC

CinnamonOne wrote:By the way. The Flood is already a hivemind. More accurately a hive with one king (gravemind)

Gravemind is one entity. I'm not sure about the many bodies (he probably has one mouth, but many tentacles), but just destroying High Charity destroyed him, so he probably has one body he always disassembles.


Yeah but I don't think they are on the same level of hivemind as the Borg. They have been shown to quickly be able to copy or counter a technology after encountering it once. The flood on the other hand haven't done this, and the closest they have come is using the weapons of the infected hosts, which it can be argued, that since they infected trained military personnel from both sides that there was sufficient muscle memory for the flood to be able to command the host with little difficulty. And even then, their control of the host is at best clunky.
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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby CinnamonOne » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:50 pm UTC

Not Quite

The Borg may adapt quickly on the tactical battlefield, but this is upon a basis that is easy even for a Rancor. They (the Borg) absolutely suck in the strategic sense. They take forever to react to strategic threats. Conclusion: As machines, they can quickly tune out phasor beam frequency, but they cannot react to immersive battle tactics. The Flood, led by the Gravemind, can.

The Flood, on the other hand, do absorb neural imprints, but they cannot effectively coordinate them until a Gravemind is created. The Flood can only store a certain amount of knowledge without the Gravemind.
zmatt wrote:
Yeah but I don't think they are on the same level of hivemind as the Borg. They have been shown to quickly be able to copy or counter a technology after encountering it once. The flood on the other hand haven't done this, and the closest they have come is using the weapons of the infected hosts, which it can be argued, that since they infected trained military personnel from both sides that there was sufficient muscle memory for the flood to be able to command the host with little difficulty. And even then, their control of the host is at best clunky.


Muscle Memory has nothing to do about it.

1. The way weapons are wielded defy standard training. This means the Flood have basically overrided absorbed information (i.e. one hand Shotgun, AR)
2. Look to Halo 2:
i. Energy Sword wielding would be too complicated to operate based on muscle memory. Yet they do it. Better that your average non-jedi-sith-monk-etc jockey that doesn't have GM fiat (or suffers from the SMA).
ii. They use ground vehicles. That means Elite-forms using tanks and warthogs. Not standard proceedure.
iii. They flew Pelicans. Not an easy thing to do with 'clunky muscle memory'.
iv. They flew In Amber Clad. Did they do that with muscle memory.
v. They commandeered High Charity. Period.

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby Nugatti » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:52 pm UTC

Pfff, you just build an Ark (The Ark of The Covenant should do). Also, if you have Truth around, you can pretty much get the Flood to join you.

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby CinnamonOne » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:42 am UTC

Gravemind leads the Flood.

Not a prophet

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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby GenericAnimeBoy » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:16 am UTC

CinnamonOne wrote:Gravemind leads the Flood.

Not a prophet


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Re: The Flood versus EVERYTHING

Postby CinnamonOne » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:08 pm UTC

Nice One


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