IDE

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Shriike
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IDE

Postby Shriike » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:43 am UTC

I wasn't really sure where this fit in, so I thought here seemed fine since it might create some heated arguments.

I was wondering how good it is to use an IDE, I mean certain things come to mind http://xkcd.com/378/
but in the end it seems to me that while knowing how to do everything from the command line is useful, you should be more productive with an IDE taking some of the steps away from you (for instance Eclipse's correct indentation function).

So basically Vim/Nano/emacs vs. Eclipse/Visual studio (and many others on either side I left out).
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fazzone
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Re: IDE

Postby fazzone » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:53 am UTC

I use IDEs on my windows system, and work mostly with (editor macros) and/or (visual interface) in Linux. I think that an IDE can allow you to be more and more productive as a project gets more and more complex, and it gets a little harder to keep the names of all the functions/variables/files/classes in your head, but for simple 1-or-2 file programs, IDE wizards often add needless complexity to a project, at least in my experience.
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OOPMan
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Re: IDE

Postby OOPMan » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm UTC

As fazzone said, for small projects it's overkill. With big projects things start to swing the other way. With really big projects, they start to swing back.

On a small project an IDE is like using a hammer to kill an ant.

On a large project an IDE is like using a hammer to hit a nail.

On a very large project your IDE will spend so much time indexing code that it will be as though you,your hammer and the nail are on a world with 100x the gravity of Earth and hence the very act of lifting the hammer will be painful to say the least.
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0xBADFEED
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Re: IDE

Postby 0xBADFEED » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:42 pm UTC

I would say that IDE's are still useful in a very large project. If the project is really so large that the IDE spends its entire time indexing your code then either you're using a terrible IDE or you haven't partitioned your project properly. Very large projects are usually split into lots of smaller projects that are more manageable. That way you can load up portions of the entire project. You probably won't want to build the entire system from the IDE but working on individual portions is fine.

Honestly, it is also pretty dependent on the language involved too. If I wanna test some ideas out in C/C++ quickly I'll use an IDE. Even if it's only a few lines. Especially if it's something where I'm foggy on what the expected behavior is. The visual debugger and other tools help out immensely when you're writing experimental code. If it's Python then it's not a big deal and I can just use a simple editor and the interactive interpreter.

Also, if you keep a 'sandbox' project on all your IDE's that is specifically configured for writing quick one-offs it makes it easier to do experimental coding in the IDE.

There are different levels of IDE's also. Some like VisualStudio or Eclipse are very heavy weight. Then there are in-betweens. Something like PyScripter is really not heavy weight enough for a serious project but it's really good for small projects and writing simple scripts.

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Berengal
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Re: IDE

Postby Berengal » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:28 pm UTC

A good text editor is all you need to write code, but an IDE can really help with refactoring, multiple build-targets, profiling, debugging, versioning etc.

Not only does it depend on the size of the project you're working on, but it depends on the language. Heavyweight languages like Java and C++ benefit from an IDE much earlier than say Python.
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Vault
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Re: IDE

Postby Vault » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:32 am UTC

I'm going to have to say something in between. I use TextMate for most of my editing needs and if I absolutely have to I'll move to Netbeans or XCode. The main thing that I have against full-fledged IDE's is the startup time. I don't do lots of serious programming and I do most of my coding on a laptop that's about 5 years old. If I need to test something, or I just feel like doing something I don't want to wait for five minutes while my IDE launches.

I'd also just like to put a word in for TextMate. It is amazing. It handles any language you care to throw at it and if it doesn't handle your language you can always add it in. It's more or less like you decided to take vim or emacs off of the command line.

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Xanthir
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Re: IDE

Postby Xanthir » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:52 pm UTC

I've never used one of the 'normal' IDEs, but that's because I've never done any real programming in Java or the like. I do use an IDE for Lisp, because you need a REPL and a paren-matcher to hack it properly, and the ability to prettyprint code in-place and have argument lists presented as I type a function name is always useful.

When I do web programming, I use a text editor, but I basically use FF + Firebug as an IDE for it.
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OOPMan
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Re: IDE

Postby OOPMan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:22 am UTC

Vault wrote:I'm going to have to say something in between. I use TextMate for most of my editing needs and if I absolutely have to I'll move to Netbeans or XCode. The main thing that I have against full-fledged IDE's is the startup time. I don't do lots of serious programming and I do most of my coding on a laptop that's about 5 years old. If I need to test something, or I just feel like doing something I don't want to wait for five minutes while my IDE launches.

I'd also just like to put a word in for TextMate. It is amazing. It handles any language you care to throw at it and if it doesn't handle your language you can always add it in. It's more or less like you decided to take vim or emacs off of the command line.


Sorry, but that startup time argument is a lame duck. At the moment I do all my PHP development in a nightly build of NetBeans 6.7 and I pretty much start it up once a day and it takes all of 30 seconds at most. You can't seriously argue that those 30 seconds are having a major effect on my productivity.

I do get the angle that you're running old hardware though so I guess I'm being a bit harsh.
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Mach1ne
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Re: IDE

Postby Mach1ne » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:43 pm UTC

Honestly I love Eclipse. I use that to (JAVA) program anything from "Hello World" to some larger project like a game. I've used vim and emacs, and I do use vim here and there (especially when I'm in a unix terminal) but besides that I go Eclipse all the way. It may be overkill for some things, but I mean if the program is there, why not use it?

And I would have to agree, the start up time argument doesn't really fly. Eclipse loads just fine for me in a small amount of time. Now if its the 5 year old laptop that you have that may be slow at loading a lot of things, not just IDEs, then thats a different story. But if thats the case, you can't blame that on IDEs.

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bratwurst
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Re: IDE

Postby bratwurst » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:32 pm UTC

OOPMan wrote:Sorry, but that startup time argument is a lame duck. At the moment I do all my PHP development in a nightly build of NetBeans 6.7 and I pretty much start it up once a day and it takes all of 30 seconds at most. You can't seriously argue that those 30 seconds are having a major effect on my productivity.


It has a major effect on my productivity, in the same way that a web page taking thirty seconds to load effects my productivity when I'm using the web. Mind you, I'm a student, so most of my coding is smallish, hobby-type things, and so I can't really say whether or not a proper IDE would be worthwhile for bigger projects. But, at least for now, I feel that things like Eclipse make emacs look minimalistic and elegant. If I want to compile, I'll use a compiler for that. If I want to generate documentation, I'll use javadoc or some equivalent. If I really need reference docs, well, that's why I have a web browser. I don't really want or need a ten-foot swiss army chainsaw that sucks half my ram when just doing it from the terminal is both faster and of basically the same difficulty.

CrunchyFoodstuff
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Re: IDE

Postby CrunchyFoodstuff » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:54 pm UTC

Bah, and here I thought this thread would be about IDE devices (harddisks etc.)... :arrow:

Rysto
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Re: IDE

Postby Rysto » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:03 pm UTC

bratwurst wrote:It has a major effect on my productivity, in the same way that a web page taking thirty seconds to load effects my productivity when I'm using the web.

No, it affects your productivity in the same way that a web browser taking thirty seconds to start. You waste that thirty seconds once while the program starts, and it doesn't effect you for the rest of the day.

Shriike
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Re: IDE

Postby Shriike » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:33 am UTC

CrunchyFoodstuff wrote:Bah, and here I thought this thread would be about IDE devices (harddisks etc.)... :arrow:

Sorry Crunchy.
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