PC != Windows

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:05 am UTC

zmatt wrote:Well sorta, if it has the native ability to run windows then yes. ...A Mac is not, and unless they adopt BIOS never will be. PC is a specification, not a "hard" one, where it is published on a regular basis, but a loose one. You know it when you see it.


Well Microsoft does publish the minimum system requirements for running Windows:
Microsoft Windows 7 minimum system requirements wrote:
  • 1 gigahertz (GHz) or faster 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor
  • 1 gigabyte (GB) RAM (32-bit) or 2 GB RAM (64-bit)
  • 16 GB available hard disk space (32-bit) or 20 GB (64-bit)
  • DirectX 9 graphics device with WDDM 1.0 or higher driver
- http://windows.microsoft.com/en-CA/windows7/products/system-requirements

According to those requirements, and the idea that a PC must be able to run Windows, the original IBM PC is not a PC!
By that criteria, the "Made for Windows 95" computers are no longer PCs either. Nor are the original EEE PCs that popularized subnotebooks again.

The problem with a PC definition that includes the ability to run Windows is that it changes over time. How obsolete is a PC allowed to be before it is no longer a PC?
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby zmatt » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:31 pm UTC

Well by windows I mean one of them or one of the DOS, not necessarily the newest one. Also, just because it ran run an M$ OS doesn't automatically get it in the club. I have a TRS-80 MC10 in my closet with a 1mhz Motorola 6501, 8kb of memory and it runs Microsoft basic v1.0. It is not a PC. But it is awesome.
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby NickNackGus » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:26 pm UTC

Isn't a PC just a "Personal Computer"? Shouldn't the user (you) be able to install whatever software he/she wants on any OS he/she want on any hardware he/she wants? By this reasoning you could be running MAC OSX on a standard computer (not apple), Windows an a Mac, or Linux on anything else. You can even get the OS for various video game systems. (http://www.theoldcomputer.com/roms/index.php?folder=BIOS-System-Boot)

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby NickNackGus » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:31 pm UTC

zmatt wrote:Well by windows I mean one of them or one of the DOS, not necessarily the newest one. Also, just because it ran run an M$ OS doesn't automatically get it in the club. I have a TRS-80 MC10 in my closet with a 1mhz Motorola 6501, 8kb of memory and it runs Microsoft basic v1.0. It is not a PC. But it is awesome.

Does anyone find it weird that, no matter how advanced a computer or game system gets, the older stuff is still more addictive?

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby zmatt » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:29 am UTC

depends on the game, but you can never deny the addictiveness of twitch games.


NickNackGus wrote:Isn't a PC just a "Personal Computer"? Shouldn't the user (you) be able to install whatever software he/she wants on any OS he/she want on any hardware he/she wants? By this reasoning you could be running MAC OSX on a standard computer (not apple), Windows an a Mac, or Linux on anything else. You can even get the OS for various video game systems. (http://www.theoldcomputer.com/roms/inde ... ystem-Boot)



You aren't the first to bring this up in the thread. But personal computer was a trademark applied to a specific IBM computer from the 1980's that more or less set a standard for computers since then. In the early 90's it was referred to as "IBM compatible". I'm not going to reiterate my posts again, but I would argue that Personal Computers are modern extensions of said lineage and while it isn't a "hard" standard with published specifications, it is a "soft" standard where certain criteria must be met to be considered one. There was a point in time where to be a PC meant you had to meet a written spec.
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby Vash » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:47 pm UTC

zmatt wrote:Does the motherboard conform to ATX or a similar form factor? If so then IMO yes.


Ah, I misread your post. I thought you were talking about cases.

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby zmatt » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:08 pm UTC

Vash wrote:
zmatt wrote:Does the motherboard conform to ATX or a similar form factor? If so then IMO yes.


Ah, I misread your post. I thought you were talking about cases.


well if we included the case, then just about every custom case pc would not be a pc. And that is a little silly.
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Re: PC != Mac

Postby squareroot » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:51 am UTC

I would just like to point out that - with the current, cheesegrater-ed title - there's really no debate! :D PC certainly does not equals Mac.
Although I hear all these people talking about "Mac 7"; I thought 10.7 (Lion) wasn't due for a while still?
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Re: PC != Mac

Postby zmatt » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:45 pm UTC

I thought Lion just came out. Not that I really care.

Going off of OSX, I think it's funny how people always complained about how bland and boring windows looks, but Macs have more or less had the same GUI for a decade now. Windows has never had the same look for more than 5 years or so at any one time. I think the whole "oooh silver gradients!" thing has gotten pretty bland itself. where is some goddamn color?
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Re: PC != Mac

Postby Tanegashima_ » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:55 pm UTC

zmatt wrote:Going off o' OSX, I think it's funny how people always complained about how bland and boring Mac looks, but Macs have more or less had the same GUI for a decade now. Mac has never had the same look for more then 5 years or so at any one time. I think the whole "oooh silver gradients!" thing has gotten pretty bland itself. where is some goddamn color?


And they even get rid of more color with lion, from the school bars and the buttons.

It's simple, less color = less distraction.

It's like a plain white sheet of paper, it's color is neutral, (gray is only a shade), it doesn't have any value attached to it, you can write a love letter, you can write an ultimatum, it's up to you.

I like it that way...

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby TepidCoder » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:37 pm UTC

If you really hate it then just start trolling the heck out of people. Get linux or something thats not windows and say I have a PC. Either you'll confuse someone, piss them off, or enlighten them and they will start using PC to reference a Personal Computer. Either way you win!

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby zmatt » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:54 pm UTC

TepidCoder wrote:If you really hate it then just start trolling the heck out of people. Get linux or something thats not windows and say I have a PC. Either you'll confuse someone, piss them off, or enlighten them and they will start using PC to reference a Personal Computer. Either way you win!



>Implying I don't already troll people IRL.
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby hintss » Sun May 15, 2011 6:27 am UTC

zmatt wrote:
TepidCoder wrote:If you really hate it then just start trolling the heck out of people. Get linux or something thats not windows and say I have a PC. Either you'll confuse someone, piss them off, or enlighten them and they will start using PC to reference a Personal Computer. Either way you win!



>Implying I don't already troll people IRL.

trolling IRL is fun!

oh, and its almost Monday, only a few dozen short hours...

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Re: PC != Mac

Postby flying sheep » Mon May 16, 2011 1:55 pm UTC

Tanegashima_ wrote:
zmatt wrote:Going off o' OSX, I think it's funny how people always complained about how bland and boring Mac looks, but Macs have more or less had the same GUI for a decade now. Mac has never had the same look for more then 5 years or so at any one time. I think the whole "oooh silver gradients!" thing has gotten pretty bland itself. where is some goddamn color?


And they even get rid of more color with lion, from the school bars and the buttons.

It's simple, less color = less distraction.

It's like a plain white sheet of paper, it's color is neutral, (gray is only a shade), it doesn't have any value attached to it, you can write a love letter, you can write an ultimatum, it's up to you.

I like it that way...
me too, my kubuntu color scheme is (very dark) gray with blue shine around focused windows and window elements.

also: wtf? i just used firefox’ context menu to google for „lion“, wanting to add „osx“ to the query, but it wasn’t necessary! apple’s os is the SECOND google result when googling for the animal alone!

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby collegestudent22 » Wed May 18, 2011 12:01 pm UTC

Troy Martin wrote:Microsoft's just scared they're going to lose domination of the market... and so they should.


Why should they? I get the whole "Linux is better" thing, but it is also bordering on user hostility. Most people don't have 8 hours or so to figure out why their version of Linux isn't doing what they want. Seriously, most things take about 5 minutes for me to do in Windows 7, but can take much longer in Linux if even some minor issue comes up.

As for OSX, I haven't used it a lot, but as Apple has made almost no effort to attempt to get PC game developers to maintain compatibility (You can play Blizzard games on Macs, and..... well, I can't think of any more off the top of my head) or make it "work friendly", likely won't take over the PC market anytime soon - especially given the ridiculous amount they overcharge for Macs.

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby Kaelri » Wed May 18, 2011 4:12 pm UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:I get the whole "Linux is better" thing, but it is also bordering on user hostility. Most people don't have 8 hours or so to figure out why their version of Linux isn't doing what they want. Seriously, most things take about 5 minutes for me to do in Windows 7, but can take much longer in Linux if even some minor issue comes up.

This is definitely Linux's biggest hurdle. The interface is fine - while not nearly as polished as either Windows 7 or OS X, it's perfectly usable for most people, and the communications/media integration in Ubuntu, et al. is actually really attractive. But whenever you have to go beneath its gilded surface, it's a nightmare.

I've spent much of the last 24 hours trying to get my wireless card working in Ubuntu. The manufacturer provides Linux drivers for it. I have them. There are instructions. And a day later, I have still had no success at all trying to install them. When I Google for people who have had the same problem with the same machine and card as I have, I get completely different advice from each result, and of course none of them work either. I am frustrated to the point of defeat, and I'm someone who is much more comfortable with code, command lines and messing with system files than the average person. It doesn't matter whose fault it is: no Linux distribution will be successful as long as experiences like this are commonplace.

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby phlip » Thu May 19, 2011 12:02 am UTC

... And this is still not the "which OS is better" thread...

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby zmatt » Thu May 19, 2011 1:58 pm UTC

Kaelri wrote:
collegestudent22 wrote:I get the whole "Linux is better" thing, but it is also bordering on user hostility. Most people don't have 8 hours or so to figure out why their version of Linux isn't doing what they want. Seriously, most things take about 5 minutes for me to do in Windows 7, but can take much longer in Linux if even some minor issue comes up.

This is definitely Linux's biggest hurdle. The interface is fine - while not nearly as polished as either Windows 7 or OS X, it's perfectly usable for most people, and the communications/media integration in Ubuntu, et al. is actually really attractive. But whenever you have to go beneath its gilded surface, it's a nightmare.

I've spent much of the last 24 hours trying to get my wireless card working in Ubuntu. The manufacturer provides Linux drivers for it. I have them. There are instructions. And a day later, I have still had no success at all trying to install them. When I Google for people who have had the same problem with the same machine and card as I have, I get completely different advice from each result, and of course none of them work either. I am frustrated to the point of defeat, and I'm someone who is much more comfortable with code, command lines and messing with system files than the average person. It doesn't matter whose fault it is: no Linux distribution will be successful as long as experiences like this are commonplace.



I agree. Not to bash linux or say that windows is better, but in my experience Linux can be APITA to set up unless its a canned system like a mac that has hardware cherrypicked for compatibility. Not to mention the massive fragmentation in the community. Apple and M$ don't have that problem because they have employees who have to do what they are told. In Linux world it's a million free agents who do what they want and if they get bored or distracted they start another half baked project. it's great for diversity of code, but bad for actually shipping a product. Lets take WINE for example, as it's failure to support most games is one reason my primary machine isn't Linux. If WINE had a full time, paid staff they would probably be much further along. Again, not dissing FOSS, it's the nature of the beast. You don't get big brother or have to pay for it, but you also lose usability and are way behind on technology.
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby JuEeHa » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:00 pm UTC

What about Acorn RiscPC? It has PC in its name like IBM PC.

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby Kyubey » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:08 pm UTC

I call my macbook pro my PC all the time. I mean, it's built from PC parts - and I've never equated PC with windows.

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby GenericAnimeBoy » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:42 pm UTC

zmatt wrote:Lets take WINE for example, as it's failure to support most games is one reason my primary machine isn't Linux. If WINE had a full time, paid staff they would probably be much further along.


You mean like CrossOver Games? :roll:
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby toastking » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

I don't get bugged with it because most people only know Windows as "PC". It's like how most people know their processor as just "the brain of the computer" not as an Intel or ARM or AMD processor.

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby Iranon » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:31 pm UTC

IF OS is going to be part of the definition...

A Personal Computer should run one that's easy to adjust to personal preferences and one that does the users' bidding: no artificial restrictions or phoning home for guidance when not desired.
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby dumbzebra » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:21 pm UTC

Gathered from my small knowledge about computers, so it probably is wrong in some ways:

Are Non-PC computers still in use nowadays? I thought PC refers to a setup where one computer (or one processing unit, to be exact) is used by one single person at a time. They are opposed to Non-PCs, like the giant computers they used in Unis and labs in the 60s, where everyone gave his commands through a terminal. I thought the whole UNIX multiuser system with different terminals and ttys was a relic of that. Servers don't really count as PCs nor Non-PCs since users don't really use the servers CPU, but simply ask the server to do something.

I thought having multiple terminals to one computer came out of fashion a long time ago.
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby Iranon » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:30 pm UTC

Big Iron still sees use, but it's dwindling because you can do a lot with commodity hardware. Sometimes this even overlaps - like the US Air Force linking up 1760 Playstations (running Linux), claiming purpose-building such a monstrosity would have been 10 times as expensive.

In many cases, "personal computer" is just a description of use, not of technology... modern *nixes on pc-grade hardware work just fine as full multi-user machines. How does 1 high-powered remotely accessible desktop for the whole family, 1 tablet/netbook/whatever per family member sound?
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:20 pm UTC

dumbzebra wrote:Gathered from my small knowledge about computers, so it probably is wrong in some ways:

Are Non-PC computers still in use nowadays? I thought PC refers to a setup where one computer (or one processing unit, to be exact) is used by one single person at a time. They are opposed to Non-PCs, like the giant computers they used in Unis and labs in the 60s, where everyone gave his commands through a terminal. I thought the whole UNIX multiuser system with different terminals and ttys was a relic of that. Servers don't really count as PCs nor Non-PCs since users don't really use the servers CPU, but simply ask the server to do something.

I thought having multiple terminals to one computer came out of fashion a long time ago.

When I was telemarketing back in...2003? (I know...), the computers were all terminals. The Scroll Lock buttons even worked, and after a month, I hated the job so much, I'd just come in, take one call, then hit Scroll Lock so it looked like I was on a call. That lasted for about a month until I got fired for not selling anything. (Which was fine since another couple weeks and it would have been time for me to quit to go back to college.)

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby Copper Bezel » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:43 am UTC

dumbzebra wrote:Are Non-PC computers still in use nowadays? I thought PC refers to a setup where one computer (or one processing unit, to be exact) is used by one single person at a time. They are opposed to Non-PCs, like the giant computers they used in Unis and labs in the 60s, where everyone gave his commands through a terminal. I thought the whole UNIX multiuser system with different terminals and ttys was a relic of that. Servers don't really count as PCs nor Non-PCs since users don't really use the servers CPU, but simply ask the server to do something.

Well, that's what it properly means now, but PC was initially a marketing term for IBM, just as it is now for Microsoft. In between, it meant IBM-compatible architecture, the kind you could run Unix, OS2, DOS / Windows, various Linuxes, etc. on. Apple didn't start using the same hardware until 2006, after the transition to OSX.

The model of a server and a batch of thin clients ("graphical terminals") isn't completely nonexistent, even today and even under Windows. At my workplace, we have a number of computer labs set up with two or three Windows PC towers running fifteen or twenty thin clients, and some businesses use a datacenter with blade servers to run their workstations. Such arrangements tend to be cheaper, more flexible, and easier to maintain than a one-tower-per-workstation arrangement.
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby webgiant » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:58 am UTC

Kangaroo wrote:Oh yeah, these PC vs. Mac battles are quite amusing, since nowadays PC=Mac; folks don't even know what they are fighting for.

PC != Mac either. I have one Windows PC and one laptop with Windows running in a VirtualBox, because sometimes I need to test something on a Windows PC. For real work, I boot into Linux.

Apple can bite me.

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby Pingouin7 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:33 pm UTC

I am now going to use the term "abacus" to refer to a computer.
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Re: PC != Windows

Postby WanderingLinguist » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:29 pm UTC

Pingouin7 wrote:I am now going to use the term "abacus" to refer to a computer.

How many gigabeads/s does yours do?

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Re: PC != Windows

Postby eviloatmeal » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:53 pm UTC

NickNackGus wrote:Does anyone find it weird that, no matter how advanced a computer or game system gets, the older stuff is still more addictive?


Not even the tiniest, slightest little bit weird at all what-so-ever, no. It makes perfect sense. I'd explain why, but game design falls under the scope of the Gaming sub-forum, does it not?

As for the term "PC", I feel that it has lost all meaning in the last 20 years. I think there was a point in time at which "personal computer" was a useful term that described what is known today as a "desktop computer", or simply "desktop" or "computer". But that time was long ago (70s/80s) and the meaning has died off together with the term "mainframe" to describe the opposite of a personal computer.

I think that as long as I've been alive, "PC" has simply been filler in the box of "things my grandmother says, the meaning of which she does not understand", and I've been around since the Macintosh SE30 was released.

Pingouin7 wrote:I am now going to use the term "abacus" to refer to a computer.


That's rather insulting to the hard-working men and women of the profession.
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